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If a god existed but he was crule and unjust and way incompetent. Would you still follow him? Even if questioning his authority would mean going to hell?
Id have to say yes I would follow him because of the severe consquinses. Never quenstion a gods authority.

good thread
we have some idea of God and we believe that he IS kind, clever and fair but maybe he ISN'T and I think we are not clever enough to find out if he is good or not... so my answer is yes I would follow him cause God knows what is he doing even if he was unfair. it is profitable to obey Him I mean

Epicurian Philosophy people!! This is the way:



The ultimate goal in life is contentment
The greatest obsticle to contentment is fear
The greatest fear is the fear of the Gods
Therefore
The greatest evil is religion

I think so too. I just wonderd how people would respond if he wasnt

i can honestly say i would not follow a crule and unjust god .

if it meant going to hell then so be it . if god were crule and unjust then it would be no different then sharing my bed with satan then kissing gods crule ass .

Even if he would reward you for your obedience?

but if god were crule and unjust , how could i trust him/her ?

clap

Well said that Minx

I don't believe in an Almighty being in the first place, but if I did and he happened to be cruel and unjust, then I'd drop religion like a ton of bricks. What exactly would be the point? I assume, and I may be wrong, that in following a God you are pledging your faith in something pure and true, if this were not the case and God was cruel and unjust, why would you bother? Just a general query, I don't often try logic but I really don't get that

hmmmm maybe he needed soldiers to enforce his power and he cant afford to trick you

I think that people cannot know God's character. is he honest? is he cruel? we can't recognize that. we know what God lets us to know...

gotta believe in God before i participate in this one...

I agree with Milla on this... Organized religion is evil. There's a big difference between believing in a God because you actually love him/her/it, and trying to believe in one because you're afraid of what comes after death.

If a god was really "incompetant" as you put it, how do I know he would actually send me to hell for not obeying him?

I was listening to this interview with Marilyn Manson, and he explained why he didn't like Christianity. The first big reason was how they try to scare you into believing in their religion. The second is that they glorify their religion above all others ("...the closest thing I did to that was tearing up a bible, which was really just a symbolic thing... To show it's a book like any other, nobody's going to be mad if I tear up a dictionary"... And then (probably not last), that they place such great emphasis on worshipping God. He mentioned the story of Lucifer, who was cast out of heaven for trying to be God. That also bugs me, like in Dante's hell how there's a place in hell for those who didn't sin but were not Christian. Sounds like a load of bull to me.

Exactly. I'd rather not kiss the ass of a God who held himself above all others whilst preaching about equality. Little less detailed than my usual efforts but I think it says enough.

I'd follow him no matter what. And i would NEVER question him.

the frailty of this reply is that you're assuming God is fraught human qualities...if there is a God, then one would have to assume he/she is beyond our limited human emotions and responses...

honesty, cruelty, what are those that created all things according to holy text??? you then have to assume he/she created all this out sheer boredom and taunt us lowly humans as a child would to ants...

a cruel god is one invented by one who wished to submit the masses into believing a 'thing' that would greatly benefit the author of the invention...a thing called fear...

If he was cruel,unjust and way incompetent wouldnt his place be hell then?

yeah thats what the sheep said following the first one in line into the slaughterhouse.

God does everything for a reason, Finti

"If a god existed but he was crule and unjust and way incompetent. Would you still follow him? Even if questioning his authority would mean going to hell?
Id have to say yes I would follow him because of the severe consquinses. Never quenstion a gods authority."

If Hell is the price of knowing I didn't lay down and be a slave then so be it.

I'd rather die on my feet than live on my knees.

-AC

so thats why peopel should follow this god blindly because it is said to be reason

"God does everything for a reason, Finti"

If there was a God and he was mean, cruel, unjust and evil. I wouldn't lay down and take it. If death and hell are the answer then so be it.

If God is being a shitface just because he can, because he sees you beneath him, you'd still follow him? If he degraded you, embarassed you, abused you and committed evil acts about your person, you'd still worship him coz he was a god?

That is dumb. I respect opinions but opinion or not, that is a retarded opinion.

-AC

Look, I believe in God, and I believe that he is a great God. sorry if you disagree. All i know is that I'm going to heaven

i dont see how that makes since, all i got from it is the thing between us and contentment is our fear of God.

"Look, I believe in God, and I believe that he is a great God. sorry if you disagree. All i know is that I'm going to heaven"

Have you ever masturbated, stole, had an argument or disrespected your parents, idolised something or someone other than God or have you ever cheated on someone in a relationship (involving sex)?

If you've done any of these you're not going to Heaven. According to the Christian religion of course.

-AC

You talking about the ten commandments? Okay well read the Bible it clearly states that God will forgive and forget. All you have to do is ask for his forgiveness and you have. Now that doesn't mean that you can steal, ask for his forgiveness, and then steal again the next day. God knows we are not perfect, he made us. He knows that we will sin.

Heaven is full of sinners, so heaven must be earth speak for yourself

Yes, you still can go to Heaven if you've done those things IF IF IF you repent and do those things NO more. No ONE is perfect, its a daily walk, if you mess up you repent of your sins and turn from you wicked ways. You don't keep doing that tho
New testment: John 5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.
John 8:10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
John 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

Thank God, he's NOT a cruel and unjust God. He's loving, kind, forgiving, and he never leaves you or forsakes you. He's always been there for me, There would be NO reason for me to leave him now and not believe in him. He's Awesome!!

"Yes, you still can go to Heaven if you've done those things IF IF IF you repent and do those things NO more. No ONE is perfect, its a daily walk, if you mess up you repent of your sins and turn from you wicked ways. You don't keep doing that tho
New testment: John 5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.
John 8:10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
John 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more"

AC 5:12- But in the grand scheme of things, that's the biggest contradiction ever isn't it?

And the point of the thread was if God was cruel and unjust, would you follow him JUST because he's a God?

-AC

Like I said, he's done too much for me for me to turn on him and I did keep up w/the thread, thx tho

If there was a god and he was being a douch bag to me I'd kick his ass

"Whats the biggest contradiction ever, ya lost me there"

The part about having commandments that you are "supposed" to follow, yet breaking them doesn't matter.

The question wasn't if God TURNED cruel. If there definatly was one and he was always that way, would you follow him just coz he was a God?

-AC

If there is too much oxygen, people would get high.
With not enough oxygen, one would die.
If the earth were just a little closer to the sun,
it would be too hot to live in.
A little farther away, it would be too cold.
How could all these things be by accident?
There must be Someone in control.

no why must someone be in control, the earth havent always been inhabitable for all species

There is no such thing as a god, You must all worship me !!!

oh, i'll pray for your soul, too!

Shellie said:



But the thing is Shellie...HE IS cruel and unjust ! Either that or he/she/it doesn't pay attention to what goes on in this cruel world.

If one accepts that The God Almighty is all-powerful and all-seeing and all-knowing then what the hell is he/she/it playing at to allow so many awful things to happen ?

The faithful say that along with everything else that he/she/it gave us he/she/it gave us free will ??????

What a copout THAT is !

When he/she/it makes things that are wonderful and beautiful he/she/it gets all the credit for this...BUT....when things are black and ugly and terrible he/she/it does not get the blame...The Devil does !

Awe.....come off it willya !

Does nobody see the iniquities in this ?

yeah and challange the priest with it when I stood for confirmation when I was 15, almost got me kicked out, but my dad was a freemason with the bishop of this town and he(the bishop) wouldnt have the local priest kicking out a 15 year old boys becuase he challenged the foundation of the church.

You only think He is. God is always JUST. He gave us the commandments and the laws to free us from sins... He showed us the mystery of His will. All we have to do is serve Him and obey Him. That's all we can give back to Him.

yeah the story of the great flood was a just thong to do

For priests are sinners themselves.

Great flood was a just judgment for the whole world has disobeyed Him... But it was not enough ... there must be GREATER than that.

the whole world hmmmmmm even newly born babies huh?

"If one accepts that The God Almighty is all-powerful and all-seeing and all-knowing then what the hell is he/she/it playing at to allow so many awful things to happen ?"

Would God have created us with free will and in great number if he knew he was gonna jump in every time we got ourselves into some trouble? It's our responsibility how we treat others and out planet, not God's.

-AC

why not? ... even the unborn.

yeah how just that would have been, I would consider that cruel but then again it is just another tale from the bible

Disobeying God is the true cruelty... Not God's judgment through the great flood.

The Noah's Ark was a part of history. And that history is repeating itself during this time already ... and the judgment greater than the great flood is yet to come. The "Ark" has already on earth ... someone who has not found this "Ark" will be doomed to that greater judgment.

yeah blame man

Just as much truth to the Norse Mythology so the christian one

Why not blame them?

Alpha said....



SO...what's the point of us worshipping a voyeur and/or praying to a punter that arbitrarily helps out some but refuses others at a whim.

The other quote that I hear from the faithful is "God works in mysterious ways - his wonders to perform" - and we are not important enough or wise enough to be able understand his/her/it's designs and actions !

Another copout !

beyond that point, understand to well..the fact that it is all hogwash

That's exactly the point.
Why would God help others and ignore some?
The history presented in the Bible only shows that God has His own chosen people... from the very beginning He created humankind ... upto this time ... so before you ask anything in Him, you should find out if you're really are among His chosen ones.

The Bible also tells us how.
It's your decision to obey it or not.

If there is a god (besides me that is) He's playing a Sims-game with the world, and I quote from the movie South park, bigger, longer and uncut "God is the biggest ***** of them all"

Poor soul. no2

Hmmmmmmmmm Jury......

SO....Only the chosen-ones will get the good stuff and the ones out of the loop will get the s**t eh ?

That would suggest that your perfect God is a bit of an egotist and a selfish git into the bargain !

Is THAT true ?

his chosen people was the Israelites, well at least according to the bible. So why do chrisitans around thinking it is them then when it seems to be the Jews

Call it what you want. But everyone is still very much welcome to God ... but there's a condition... know what His will is ... and obey His will ...
Be patient to what he can do for you ... and the rest will be added to you.

God is jelous. He admit that. But it's your decision what to call Him.
For me, He's my God.

my family is my god,

The Bible history says that Israel did not remain faithful to God ... they worship other gods ... and destruction befell amidst them. Man still has to be blamed.

God still made another way to bring His people (another flock) back to Him ...

He sent Jesus Christ.

lucky for you he/she /it didnt send me

by all means jury , you know i mean no disrespect , but after reading all your post im curious about something sweetie..........


you seem to have the knowledge of gods word , so i ask you this .


how many faces does god have ? there are so many different religions that to choose from . how do you know you have chosen the right face ?

is it becuase of what a book has told you ?

Like Shellie, I respect your faith Jury....I just don't understand it even although I WANT to !

Like...if your God is perfect why could he/she/it possibly be "jealous" ?

Is jealousy not one of the seven deadly sins that he/she/it denies us ?

You see... to be one of "The faithful", and to question that faith is a very dangerous thing to do as once the doubt creeps in the whole ball of wax falls apart.

It is better and safer just to blindly follow the scriptures and NEVER to question them as to ask questions could bring down the wrath of your "jealous" or your "kind, loving and merciful" God.

I think that your God is a bit of a Schizophrenic if you ask me !

i have to say this as well , i do believe in god . not the one described in the bible as being a jealous god . my god has 2 faces , male and female...

i think that is a mistake that alot of christains make . god is perfect and all loving but when you put qualities to god that are jealousy and vengful , then you bring him/her down to the level of man......

isnt that a contradiction to what most say when talking about their god ?

how can he be all loving and perfect and jealous and vengful at the same time ?

easy first art is male dominant part of god second part is teh female side of God

Before I could believe in any "God" this entitiy would have to be perfect and would have to show all the best features and none of the worst ones.

Everywhere that "God" appears in any of the religions he/she/it is flawed and imperfect and that is why I cannot worship any entity that is not supreme in everything.

I can't tell you about how many faces does God has. God is Spirit and can't be seen. But He can be seen through His creations ... space ... earth ... trees ... beasts ... and a new born baby ... but it doesn't mean one must worship these creations.

As to gender, He would probably be a "Male" for He was called "Father" ... by Jesus Christ and His Apostles.

The Bible tells us that there are a lot of religions elsewhere in the world.
But there's only ONE recognized by God ... the one who knows Him ... the one who follows His will ... the one who unites with Him through His commandments, messengers, and through Jesus Christ.

God taught us which gate to enter ... and even instructed us to enter the narrow gate instead of the wider one. But because people of the world still decide for their own ... God told us that He knew there would be more people would enter the wider gate coz the road in it is very easy.

Man, upon searching which religion is true, can join anywhere and continue to seek for the truth. That's what God wants us to do -- to search for the spiritual truth. God knows whose heart is eager to search a home in Him... and He guides them.

And how do you know if you have chosen the right "face"?

After you've found the truth. The TRUTH mentioned in the Bible -- because it is God's words.

Any Bible versions -- all Bible versions have the same "thoughts" and "meanings" ... Even though there are ones which are bias to the translators... Still, the TRUTH prevails. God sends His messengers from time to time to preach His words. Because these "messengers" have exclusive authority from God to know the mystery written in the Bible.

Why the Bible a mystery? Because God knows there are people who are "corrupt" in thinking ... they would use the Bible for material cause. But God knows they won't reach the TRUTH for doing so.

And how do you know if you have chosen the right "face"?

You will eventually feel that. God will let you feel that.

Sounds like you're describing the God that people DO already believe in.

If god was ***** to me I'd smack him and tell him to go to his room and no nintendo!

God is jealous in terms of He do not want His people to serve other "gods". God continues to warn His people not to fall from such wickedness. But people has to be blamed for they still worshipped other "gods" ... carved images made of woods, silver, or stones, etc.
like the "gods" of heathens or pagans.

There is a Law. So God's people must obey the Law in order to remain righteous in His sight. But still people fell to the evil's trap ... they were tempted to break and violate the Law. God has warned these people. People never seemed to listen. But because the virtue of the Law ... there would be Judgment. And this Judgment is their distruction. People knew that ... but ignored it. Destruction fell to them. So who has to be blamed?

The JUST God ... or the wicked people?

God seems like a hard ass, he needs to lighten up on you guys

poor soul again no2

so the infants were to be sacrifiesed for the sins of their parents. Some just god, guess the story was to harsh so they lightened it up a bit next time around so that the only one to suffer was the son of god. what a joke

They have everything when God cared for them. Yes, infants, if there were, died at the moment of the great flood. But that first death was not yet the end. Everyone would still face God come Judgment Day. Old and infants. Second death is the Judgment for the wicked who disobeyed God. And for the infants, as what Jesus Christ has promised: to them is the Kingdom of Heaven.

Vallhall

is that all you can say?

just another paradise for some

Jury.....

I congratulate you on your unshakeable faith !

I just think that faithful people like you are inclined to look at your God and your religion through rose-tinted glasses.

I mean by this that in your eyes everything good and beautiful and wonderful is created by your God but he/she/it cannot be blamed for all of the bad and ugly and horrible things that happen on earth.

That, to me, is a religion that cherry-picks for their God in order that he/she/it should not be sullied by the negative things that exist and that happen here.

How would you tell if God was unjust? Think about it....with all the other types of religions out there. Everyone is brought in this world to believe in something, mainly the same type as the people who brought you up. If that person was on a straight path on following that particular God, then he/she wouldn't know if it was right or wrong, only just.

think about the middle east.....people kill themselves, killing others as they think its a just way to enter into heaven, but yet we think its all crazy (including me)....

how do they know?....

just something to think about....

I know someone who just believes what he believes because he feels he has to act how he was raised.

Any smart person would know you can choose how you act and what you believe.

-AC

Yeah

My parents raised me with certain perceptions of what's right and wrong. Some I still agree with, some I don't. They raised me to make my own choices, not ones they would make.

-AC

Well God exists. I dont need to worry about him being crul and unjust because he's not!!
SOrry, i find it hard to answer that question!

Don't call my ppl poor, I'm the most supreme being in this universe and therefor you shall worship me instead of the b!tch that wants you to destroy a whole hour of your time a week to go to church, I meen, what kind of monster is he, , listen to your parrents, go to church, work 6 days of the week... and worst of all: NO STEALING ???

^ dreaming tsk.tsk.tsk no2

It's their holy scriptures that lead them astray !

If they are going to believe in their God, Allah, Buddah, Manitou, they are going to have to believe what is in their holy scriptures too and interpret them to support what they want to do anyway.

I have always believed that holy scriptures are written in such a way as to be deliberately ambiguous so that it is hard to pin down the flaws written inside them.

To some, He might seem CRUEL because of what is happening in the world and to their lives. But God CAN be "cruel" more than what man can think He can ... for the sake of God's being JUST.

"Fools say to themselves,
'There is no God!' They are all corrupt.
And they have done terrible things;
there is no one who does what is right."
Psalm 14:1

"Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial among you, which cometh upon you to prove you, as though a strange thing happened unto you:
"but insomuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings, rejoice; that at the revelation of his glory also ye may rejoice with exceeding joy."
1 Peter 4:12-13

"And not only so, but we also rejoice in our tribulations: knowing that tribulation worketh stedfastness;
"and stedfastness, approvedness; and approvedness, hope:
"and hope putteth not to shame; because the love of God hath been shed abroad in our hearts through the Holy Spirit which was given unto us."
Romans 5:3-5

"Count it all joy, my brethren, when ye fall into manifold temptations;
"Knowing that the proving of your faith worketh patience.
"And let patience have its perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, lacking in nothing."
James 1:2-4

"And the God of all grace, who called you unto his eternal glory in Christ, after that ye have suffered a little while, shall himself perfect, establish, strengthen you."
1 Peter 5:10

"Wherefore let them also that suffer according to the will of God commit their souls in well-doing unto a faithful Creator."
1 Peter 4:19

"Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, we have boldness toward God;
"and whatsoever we ask we receive of him, because we keep his commandments and do the things that are pleasing in his sight."
1 John 3:21-22

Hate to seem like a nitpicker, but Buddha is not a "god", Shakyamuni was just a very wise philosopher and the founder of modern Buddhism.

Jury> That bit from Psalms is bull... I know plenty of non Christians who do more good in the world than some Christians I know. You don't have to be Christian to be a good person.

If God was cruel and unjust, then what would the difference be, between this hypothetical God and our perception on the devil? I would follow God's will and word which is the opposite of cruel and unjust. I would do this not just because i believe in God, and that doing this is his will. I would live my life like this because in following Jesus word i have found acceptance and self enlightenment. My life grows and prospers because of this, because of the perception i have chosen to live my life through. I believe in Jesus's word and preference of living with all that i am.

To finally answer the question On would i still follow God if i found he was cruel and unjust? No. I would follow my heart and the instillments that Jesus's word has given me. If trying my hardest to lead a righteous and self aware life meant major consequences such as our perspective on hell, then so be it. Even if this question contradicts our beliefs on what condems one to hell.

Well, I bet you don't know what the real "good" thing is, don't you?

That's the common mistake most men do not understand.
They just thought all the way they knew what the real "good" thing is.

Tsk.tsk.tsk no2

maybe i missed a peice of the conversation, but what do you mean on what the real "good" thing is jury?

The common mistake is that of the christians who think they have copyright to understanding, and when they try to display this understanding all they have to say is a bunch of rubbish

Darvan has just said, "You don't have to be Christian to be a good person."

So he just mentioned "good" ...
But what really is "good" if I may ask?

Is it enough to be just "good" to become what we think as "good"?

Probably, we think of what we can only comprehend about what "good" is.

I know there is something I am telling about.

Only a "good" person knows it.

Well, sorry, it's because you know nothing, finti. That's the sound of everything you say.

oh ok. mis read. I think everyone has a viiew of what good really is that comes from the general acceptance of the word through society. you are right, everyone's perspective on what good is varies from each person,but we hold a general understanding on the definition because of societies general meaning.

But what we must concern about "good" thing is that of God's given definition of "good".

God gave a definition of Good? I thought he just described what good intentions are

Know enough to know BS when I hear it

The "good" is His "will".

so having a life is just dumb huh?

To some I do not know how their life have been.
Besides I am not only thinking about the life on earth.

this biblical god is a party pooper
whats with this making of rules about what you cant and shall not do.

The commandments would be soooooooooooooooo much better if they started with Thou shall enjoy life

Didn't God let all His people "enjoy" life? Indeed, He is. The problem there is that people are irresponsible of enjoying life. They just don't know how to enjoy life.

dont believe in god so for me it is the human nature of the induviduals that run life

Don't worry, friend ... someday He'll show you.

first of all why is this god refered to as a he, secondly: no

i think there is no point in talking about God using"he" form.
in the bible it was said this way only because those ppl wouldn't understand it in the other way

As a true Christian, I think I should. Christ call Him "Father" ... So we, Christians have to use "He", "Him", "His" in reference to Him.

well to me christ doesnt exist either so..... dont say a man called Jesus didnt live, he did, but it is the divine factor I dont believe in

but there is a Holy Trinity and as a perfect living God has to have all in one.

I believe Jesus Christ is a man who indeed lived in this world.
As what did God introduced Him as His son is what I believe.
Jesus is God's greatest messenger on earth.
Reason enough to call Him His only begotten son.

Man needs to return to God because of his sins. That's why God sent Jesus to save him.

Well, as to His divinity. I believe Jesus Christ is a man sent by God... as written in the Bible... But I never believe Jesus is God. It's not written anywhere in the Bible.

so to you Jesus cant take a Luke Skywalker "I am a jedi like my father before me" with the god thing huh?

could you not compare religion with star wars?

star wars is religion..............to some

Tsk.tsk.tsk. no2

not for me

My 5 year old nephew think it is.

poor kid

But now he learned more ... and soon might know God too.

there is still hope for him

surely, mon chere

thats how I feel about those young ones that have to learn about the biblestories

He didn't happen to hear them yet. He just can't understand about it yet.

Oh hell, this can't be, To much... Re..li...gion, must find something evil... I got stuck on a forum with slaves of god, this can't be, i feel so... alone

No, you're not alone. In fact, your number is most in the world --- like "the sand of the beach" which no man could number.

No wonder Jesus hasn't shown up. Not even the son of man wants to get mobbed by a rabid fan club.

-AC