Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

First of all, this scenario is not what I necessarily think will happen in Ep. III, but what I had envisioned years ago. This may contain spoilers, so if you want to remain in the dark, leave now. I will also switch between saying Palpatine and Sidious often. This does not mean that they are different. They are COMPLETELY the same exact person, period. This analysis will take up three posts, as the forum will only allow so many words per post.

My theory as to how the sequential mechanics of the Republic's shift to the Empire should occur:

1. Palpatine is somehow trained in the ways of the Sith.

2. Palpatine gains political power on Naboo, either through deception, or utilization of mind control techniques. Eventually, he is elected a Senator.

3. Senator Palpatine continues to grow his political power in the Republic, through the same sort of means.

4. Palpatine a.k.a. Sidious, persuades Nute Gunray to blockade the planet of Naboo, with promises of increasing profits and power.

5. Naboo is invaded by the Trade Federation, forcing Queen Amidala into a desperate situation. She flees Naboo with the help of Qui-Gon Jinn and Obi-Wan Kenobi, and when she arrives at Coruscant, Palpatine tricks her into calling for a vote of no confidence, and a new Supreme Chancellor is to be elected.

6. Palpatine's influence is used to put the Senate in his favor. He is elected the Supreme Chancellor. Once elected, he allows Gunray to remain on Naboo.

7. Obi-Wan defeats Sidious' apprentice, Darth Maul. This sends a ripple through Sidious' plans, but he sees new potential in the young Anakin Skywalker.

*Here is where the speculation begins. Some say that Palpatine is driven by the baser instincts; that he would not care about Maul's death and would shrug it off. I agree with this to some extent, but not entirely. Sidious' apprentice is taken away by Obi-Wan Kenobi, and Obi-Wan Kenobi is now the one who will have his apprentice taken away. Lucas says that part of the "Revenge" in Revenge of the Sith is because of the fact that the Jedi destroyed the Sith and took away their chance of conquest. If indeed Sidious would take revenge for those deaths, then he would also feel some sort of need for vengeance due to the death of his own apprentice, who could have been trained by him since a very young age (I'm not saying that's the case when it comes to Maul's past, but the EU doesn't count, and it would reflect this notion in the way that Maul acts. He is single-mindedly dedicated to Palpatine's cause. He fanaticly follows the will of his master, which shows a large past between them. I'm not saying that Sidious has love for Maul, but when you invest so much time in someone, even if you are evil, you would be enraged when you find out he/she has died). And so, my first posit, is that part of the "Revenge" in Ep. III is revenge for the murder of Darth Maul. Now back to the plot.*

8. Obi-Wan trains Anakin, but all along, Palpatine is influencing him as well. As Supreme Chancellor, Palpatine has large access to the Jedi, and could be spending quite a bit of time with Anakin.

9. Count Dooku leaves the Jedi Order, because he believes that they are not doing what is in the best interest of the Republic, and because Qui-Gon Jinn was killed.

*Keep in mind that Dooku was Qui-Gon's master, and had much affection for him. When Qui-Gon died, it was like losing a son, and his resentment which was already large, erupted into a drastic change for Dooku. Also, as evidenced by his dialogue in Ep. II, Dooku has a deep resentment towards his old master, Yoda; much in the same way that Anakin eventually grows a resentment towards Obi-Wan. Dooku's political beliefs and rage make him an easy target for Palpatine, who decides to use the former Jedi to begin the next phase of his plan.*

10. Palpatine reveals himself to Dooku, and promises him that together, they can do what is right for the Republic, and bring order to the galaxy by putting an end to the innefectual Jedi.

To be continued below.

*This next part is somewhat speculation, but I believe that most people who are not obsessed with insane theories like Sifo-Dyas=Sidious or Qui-Gon will find it reasonable. Dooku contacts Jango Fett and employs his services, telling him portions of the overall plan. Dooku slays Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas, and impersonates him when he goes to Kamino. He orders a clone army, with Jango as the base, and possibly gains funding from some sort of misappropriations account that Palpatine, as Supreme Chancellor has saved up. He claims to have the authority of the Jedi Order and the Republic and possibly shows doctored evidence of this, so the Kaminoans have no reason to doubt him. Dooku later emerges as the leader of a growing Separatist movement and enlists the forces of Nute Gunray and many other powerful corporations and systems that oppose the Republic in some way. The intent behind this is to not only create something for the citizens of the Republic to fear, but also to eventually destroy the Separatists themselves, so that their might cannot be used to threaten Palpatine's rule later on.

11. Palpatine dupes Senator Jar Jar Binks, who has been left alone by Senator Amidala (also Palpatine's doing. He separates them since Padme has grown slightly more strong-willed to make the motion herself) into moving for emergency powers to be given to him. He orders the creation of a grand army of the Republic, and begins to take credit for making the galaxy safer.

Lucas has said that the person who altered the Jedi Archives was in Ep. II, but it cannot be conclusively decided at this point. It is possible that it was Dooku or someone else, or then there is the radical notion: Anakin. It sounds kinda crazy, but think of the situation. Palpatine, who is almost a father figure to Anakin, tells him that he fears the problems with the Separatists could lead to a war, and that he needs a secret installation that no one knows about to serve as a military base or something along those lines. He convinces Anakin that it has to be completely secret, and that even the Jedi must not have the information, or someone else might get ahold of it. Anakin, out of the best intentions, follows the request of the Supreme Chancellor, who is also his friend, and who he has no reason to distrust. Think about it for one second. When Obi-Wan is investigating the Kamino mystery, Anakin is nowhere to be found, and never has to deny that he took part in the deception, and in fact is never even made aware of its existence by Obi-Wan. Keep in mind that this is not what I necessarily think the situation is, but just a possibility that doesn't go too far from what the movies show.*

12. The Separatist threat forces the Jedi to use the clone army to defend the Republic, putting them in power all over the galaxy.

Episode III Begins. This is all completely official from here on, since the movie is not yet out, however most of these facts have been confirmed. Spoilers will now be present, and not hidden.



13. The Separatists form into the Confederation of Independent Systems. Count Dooku heads the Political branch, while General Grievous serves as the Military commander.

14. The Jedi now command the clone armies directly, with the Senate overseeing the war effort, and Palpatine controlling the Senate.

15. Palpatine allows himself to be "taken captured" by Dooku and Grievous, luring the Jedi to the C.I.S. flagship. Dooku does not know it, but his master has designed this situation to replace him. Anakin and Obi-Wan reach Palpatine and Dooku. Since Dooku is now simply a liability and since the war is almost over, Palpatine allows Anakin to slay Dooku, and will eventually take his place.

16. The Jedi are scattered all over, and are surrounded by clones at all times.

17. Anakin and Obi-Wan are separated, since Obi-Wan is ordered to track down General Grievous and Anakin is assigned to protect Palpatine. Mace Windu has been investigating the mystery of the Sith, and comes to the conclusion that Palpatine is behind it. Contrary to popular belief, Windu is not arrogant, and does not go without telling anyone what he discovers. He informs any Jedi he can contact and possibly tells the public citizens that Chancellor Palpatine has manipulated and endangered them. Palpatine will eventually use this against the Jedi.

18. Windu faces Palpatine, but Anakin is at his side, having sworn to protect his long-time friend. Palpatine tells Anakin that the Jedi have been the ones who have kept him from having the power he should have, that the Jedi prevented him from saving his own mother, and that the Jedi forced him to hide his relationship with Padme (Palpatine has probably known about their marriage for as long as it has existed), which has deeply hurt Anakin. Anakin does not completely embrace Palpatine at this point, but he defends against Windu's assault. Palpatine reveals himself as Darth Sidious and further confuses and manipulates Anakin, until Mace Windu has been killed, and Anakin cannot go back to the Jedi Order. He has crossed the line. Sometime, Sidious gives Anakin the moniker of Lord Darth Vader.

19. Obi-Wan hunts down General Grievous and defeats him, and returns to find that Palpatine has ordered the clones to attack the Jedi. Palpatine has informed the public that the Jedi have betrayed the Republic, and have been trying to seize control. He institutes drastic measures and declares a massive change in government to "protect" the people from the Jedi menace. He declares that the people must give up some of their rights and put him in a higher place in command. The people do not resist. They embrace his rule, since they are so afraid, that they would be willing to give up anything for their safety.

20. The clones proceed to exterminate the Jedi and Anakin is sent to finish off the leaders of the C.I.S., to end the clone wars once and for all. Notice that Palpatine is having Anakin do things that would appear completely altruistic and right from his point of view. Certainly not evil.

21. Yoda, the highest of all Jedi confronts Sidious and is defeated. The Jedi are being wiped out and there is no way to defeat Palpatine. Anakin kills all of the remaining Separatist leaders. The clone wars have ended.

22. Obi-Wan goes to Mustafar to confront Anakin, and Padme comes with him. They arrive together, and Anakin has felt increasingly that they have betrayed him. Somehow, Anakin injures Padme and has the legendary duel with Obi-Wan. Anakin eventually falls into the lava, and Obi-Wan leaves him for dead. Obi-Wan takes escapes with Padme, who is in bad condition, but not yet dead.

23. Obi-Wan meets with Yoda and Bail Organa, who have both almost been killed. Padme has the twins, then dies shortly after. They realize that the Jedi cannot defeat the clone forces, so they go into hiding. Obi-Wan takes Luke to Tatooine, Bail Organa takes Leia to Alderaan, and Yoda goes to Dagobah (all pretty straightforward and simple).

To be continued below.

*Here is where the real speculation of the situation begins, and my theories take shape. After Anakin has been "rescued" by Palpatine and is given the suit, they address the Republic. Palpatine shows the people the man who ended the war. Darth Vader, who will help to stop the Jedi from threatening them, is shown as the great hero. Palpatine expresses that the danger is not over, that the Jedi are a powerful enemy. Drastic measures must once again be taken to "defend" the citizens. He declares the creation of the Empire, that shall be controlled exclusively and directly by himself, as the Emperor. Contrary to what is often considered, the majority of the people do not resist. Sure, there are always skeptics, and those who go on to form the Rebellion, but the main point is that most people consider Palpatine and Vader to be heroes. They willingly accept the gradual conversion to the Empire. As years go by, more and more people will see it for what it truly is, but the vision that I have always had of the end of Episode III, is that Palpatine and Vader stand before trillions of people and are looked to as the saviors of the galaxy. Fear is used as time goes by, slowly and surely to control those who provide opposition, but the importance of Episode III, is that the people bring the Empire onto themselves. It may seem radical to some, and I'm not arguing that this is the precise direction that the movie will follow, but this seems to be the way that evil powers gain their power in the first place. They eventually show themselves to be evil to their own people, but sometime along the way, the people gave them their power. This is what I feel the nature of the destruction of the Republic should be like. And yes, Sidious has achieved his revenge.*

That concludes my analysis, but feel free to disagree. I'd love to hear your opinions. And once again, I HAD to use three posts, as this would not fit in one or two posts alone.

very interesting darth.

just two disagreements:

1- i dont think anakin erased the archive memory, because it would stand to reason that camino was erased when the cloning began, which was around the time of ep1, when anakin was still a wee little boy.

2-i know this will sound weird...but i dont think dooku will be tricked into being killed. here's why: when dooku whooped obiwan he immediately attempted to kill him, no hesitation. now, when he sliced anakin's arm off, he then turned off the saber and gave a somber look, like "i wish i didnt have to do that".
i think dookuu knew very well of palp's plans for anakin, and perhaps was willing to die by anakin's hand. i think in episode 3 we will see a smiling dooku, taunting anakin and egging him on..."strike me down with all of your hatred..."

now, those disagreements are superficial in the face of the conclusion of this thread, which is that the emporer and vader will be cheered as heros at the end of ep3, which i kinda agree with. i dont know if they will be CHEERED, but i doubt people as a whole will really catch on until after ep3.

awwwwwww more reading homework?

OK novel above read
Your final paragraphs are indeed enough to make some stop and think. It is possible that the emerging Empire will be seen as a good thing at first assuming that the Republic as a whole turn against the Jedi. I don't see it happening but on the other hand I don't rule this theory out either given Lucas' provocation for the unexpected. Nice food for thought.

oh, just found out on TF.N forum that pablo has confirmed that
anakin did NOT erase the archive memory...so there you have it

If anyone erased the archive memory, I believe that it would have been Count Dooku. It makes perfect sense because Yoda said that only a jedi could have erased those files, but who and why? Dooku was once a Jedi, so the pieces fit, yet you cannot be entirely sure.

I agree that Anakin couldnt have done that.........SMX what do you think tho of his final argument in the last page of the 3? Im off to work. lata

His final argument was pretty strong. Although I've never really looked at it like that, I can't say that I'd disagree.

i was about to say..

"why am i reading this??"

i think it's beleivable...i mean...nobody booed hitler right?

At the time, no they didn't.

I'm not saying that any of this will happen like that, just that it is a possibility. Also, that there are possibilities here more likely than a lot of the really crazy ideas you hear of sometimes. One of my points in writing this is also to show how unlikely some of the really "out there" theories cannot work. When people say Sidious=Sifo-Dyas, they have to realize that he's not powerful enough to be a Jedi, who by the way do not hide their faces, and still be a Senator, and a Sith. His powers are not so direct that he could completely trick the Jedi into thinking that he was two different people that they saw all of the time. I layed out the facts of Palpatine's actions to help to show this.

Also, where it says "Episode III Begins. This is all completely official from here on, since the movie is not yet out, however most of these facts have been confirmed. Spoilers will now be present, and not hidden."

That is obviously a typo. It should say "not completely official" and "have not been confirmed." I would have edited the post, but too much time had gone by, and I was no longer allowed to make changes.

I also definitely don't think that Anakin erased the files, just that if Lucas wanted to do that, he could. I don't think that Dooku did it however, since that aspect is left as a mystery. If Dooku had done it, he would have admitted it or would have been exposed at the climax of the movie.

And I'll say it once more just to make it clear. The points that I argue are not theories that I think will come true, but theories that are sometimes ignored or dismissed that I find can still fit well. And I agree that you wouldn't see Darth Vader being cheered in the sunlight on a flowery balcony, but you wouldn't have to see him being feared for a change. I think it's interesting to think of an alternate ending to ROTS, where instead of a pronounced feeling of dread, the movie almost makes it feel like the bad guys did the right thing (even when they obviously did not).

Sorry, I tend to write a lot.

yeah, i agree. in a deleted scene with obi and the libarian, obi-wan comes across a bust of one of the lost twenty. the bust he was looking at at the time was dooku and then he finds out about the missing file. it was like the scene was implying something for future reference but i think GL took it out cause it made things to obivious. its kinda like in the TPM at the end when mace and yoda are talking about the sith and then the camera zooms in on palpatine. i guess we'll find out next year though.

I wonder if GL ever looks on the internet at certain things like this so he might change movie if he see's it but I do agree with all of you for now may force be with you.

darth surgent, this is EXACTLY how i always saw things going down (apart from the file erasing bit, which is still up in the air, and dooku dying willingly - not saying it's wrong, but still up in the air).....it all seems perfectly logical to me, and ties in with the way these things have always occurred in our history.....nice work, i believe you are 99% right, at least.....

i have two mental images of lucas, one is (sadly) a senile old fool who makes a lot of sad errors of judgement...the other view is that he can be quite crafty and clever at times. passing on this message to people, to help them learn to avoid situations like nazi germany is one of the cases where i tend to see him as a bit of a genius....

comparison to lord of the rings, where the source material (unfortunately) leads to a strong pro-war message.....this is not peter jackson's fault but by the time return of the king was released, it almost seemed to be a rallying call for bush (again, i stress, a purely, and unfortunately accidental result)....lucas on the other hand, seems to be saying "question everything, watch your leaders carefully, war is always a sham of manipulation on some level".....

i hope he's not "senile lucas" and there's some point to these films, some philosophy, and something to think about.....

His point to these films has been made clear several times.

1. How a good person turns bad and is redeemed by his son

2. How a democracy turns to extremism

And whilst the legal slide to tyranny has already been put in place by Lucas, I suspect that the Empire will show its evil colours from the outset- that's the Dark Side for you.

you're right, and i didn't miss these points being made, but i like to have a bit more to think about than just that....a lot of multilayered points, and subtleties....like everytime i watch clockwork orange (most of kubrick's films for that matter), i notice some new idea or angle in it....repeat viewing's are what star wars has always been about, and the level of debate to be found, here and elsewhere, reflects that....what i was talking about is actually part of your second point....(2. How a democracy turns to extremism).....i was just going into a little more detail and bouncing the idea around a bit....

i'm not so sure the empire will reveal it's true colours instantaneously....so far palpatine has been incredibly clever and subtle....looking back at how this has been handled is one of those moments where i think lucas might just be a bit sharper than people give him credit for.....i've enjoyed this part of the prequels a lot so far.....when you think back to the original trilogy, there really wasn't any of this carefully plotted manouvering, it was just good guys and bad guys....

to elaborate on your last point a bit, as of a new hope they were only then in the process of tearing down the last shreds of democracy, and the line "fear will keep the local systems in line" is delivered as if this is a relatively new idea....

i hope i haven't come off as too argumentative here, i don't mean to be.....it's late and i'm a bit past being able to tell....

In Episode 4, it is made clear that up until just then, the Imperial Senate had still existed (until Palpatine dissolved it), and from this, I take the idea that Palpatine's ideal Empire is not completely formed and evolved by the end of Episode 3 (since there is still some opposition and separation of powers from him for 20 years). With that concept in mind, I find that the Empire will NOT publicly show its "evil colors" from the outset.

exactly....

darth surgent, i have to say that much of your speculation seems to tie in with the way i saw things happening in ep III (and the saga as a whole)....i'm acually kind of shocked that some people are percieving the ideas as being so out there.....

Thanks. I try to look for new lines of thought and discourse, while keeping them within the boundaries of what is plausible. I am also surprised that so many people will completely refute the possibility of certain theories, just because those theories might make things a little more complex.

In most most films if they have no sort of complexity I lose interest. Films should have some twists in them if they don't there is no creativity. And without creativity you have nothing.

yeah, its as if some people really dont see the complexity of the OT, and the increased comlexity of the PT. its geared toward kids, yes. but GL has made the underlying plot complex to keep us all interested.

How is this movie geared toward kids? I have never for the life of me understood that. And there is something else that bugs me that I have never voiced that I am sure will cause a backlash. I have met many people who say things along the following lines "I first watched A New Hope when I was 4 and I never looked back" Now I ask you. How in the world can a 4 year old grasp the concept of Star Wars?? I hgihgly dount a 4,or 5 year old spends their time awaiting the next movie. I mean really peeps, do you expect me to believe that? I can accept that they probaby get the whole good vs evil stuff and the space battles etc, but there are very few below the age of 10 that get the entire picture in my mind. I'm sorry if that offends some peeps as I dont mean it that way, I am speaking to all the complexities involved, the subtleness, the nuances. Please understand Im not trying to insult anyone, I just cant wrap my mind around this concept is all.

sorry JP, but thats what GL said, he's gearing it towards kids. im not saying its "dumbed down" but thats the reason we have to deal with jar jar, because kids like jar jar.

no I KNOW thats what Lucas said what I am saying is it makes no sense to me

pretty cool stuff darth surgent , and jar jar was for the kids, episode 1 had a very kiddy feel to it, very brightly coloured, lots of comic moments with jar jar and darth vader is a freakin kid who yes yippy! lol

you know what, i have to agree.
sometimes it seems to me that GL seems to want people to think of
his films as "dumbed down". but then he will point out the complexity of his
plot. i find him to be very confusing at times...

Oh! Why did you change your AV, JP?

aw you dont like the redhead?

I like that AV much more

I think lucas tries too hard to get at all the demographics, there's people like me who i hate to admit it but star wars was the first film i ever saw on the cinema (mummy whats happening to the lights?) and have grown up with this thing and thought they had got over it and then thre bugger decides to make the prequels, i hate him and love him at the same time and for a wookie thats hard!

Then you have everyone inbetween and the kids growing up with PT being their first taste (shouldnt have ordered the starter) so he's spreading himself a bit thin....

I cant speak for everyone but ep3 is really the only one i must see, they others were buy the buy and felt dragged out, he could have done EP1 and 2 in the first film, given us the clones wars for an entire film then on to the darkside...

But thats just my opinion!!!

well, i agree that the first two lack in substance.

also, it seems like many scenes were steriotype action sequences (like anakin/padme on the conveyer belt in the geonosis droid factory) and other scenes look like they were just put together to sell video games (pod race)

dont get me wrong though, i still love the films

There are highlights Maul for one was underused, palps rise to power, jabba, god who am i kidding i loved them too!!!

my introduction to star wars was similar, smoker4.....i would have been about 4, and have two memories of it.....1. i remember crawling around on the seat or something. 2. i liked chewbacca....well, he was a dog wasn't he....i think it was the first film i ever saw in the cinema....

bit too young to fully get any of it, but yes, these films are made for kids primarily, and then there are more layers hidden under that.....the question we should be asking is why is this seen as an insulting idea?.....kids can understand a lot more than people give them credit for, most kids films patronize them and feed them crap.....the one's that last are the one's that don't talk down to the audience....

ep I was too dumbed down, parts of ep VI were suspects as well.....but i've found on those rare occasions when i feel like sticking up for phantom menace, i mention that it's a kid's film, and to compare it to most other kid's films that came out around the same time (say, inspector gadget for instance).....it usually gets people thinking....

well, i rather like the light hearted approach to TPM, given the state of the galaxy at the time. its relaxed, peaceful, playful...like any great civilization before the big crash.

my response to ep I is mainly confusion....it's not as bad as people make out, but it's flawed in all kinds of different ways....i can't be bothered going into them here.....but compared to inspector gadget, it's citizen kane....

lol

well, that clears it up

Originally posted by Guiro72



A dog. that takes me back brilliant!, i remember being scared of the sand people,my second film was grease haha, even back then i loved ESB the most, the darker aspect of star wars works so much better, hence my excitement of ep3.

PVS i hadnt thought of PM like that b4, cool!!

To me the core of these films is the old world ideas of samurai, yin and yang and world war 1 and 2 being placed in a totally new enviroment that somehow just makes it work, i agree that there are different levels to the films and can be watched by anyone, there being the reason for its success

The old movies (and maybe these new ones) were great in that you could see them as a kid and just enjoy the action, the good guys vs. bad guys, just enjoy on a simple level like that. Then you can come back when you're older and catch the deeper themes that are in there.

Oh dear the special bus has rolled up!!!

oh boy, look out.

This guys something special, what a tool!!!!

what happened?.....everyone just turned into assholes....did i miss something?.....i think i went to aint it cool by mistake....

Let me put it this way. I fell in LOVE with it.

Hold it...

Ahhh sweet relief the memphis express has rolled out

i still don't understand what just happened there.....i am unwise in the ways of the forum....

Didnt miss anything guiro!!!

A troll reappeared that had been banned but they got rid of him!!!!

what the hell are you talking about "didnt miss anything" ?

i think it was all freakin hysterical

sorry you missed it guiro, we had a real gem of a troll

Orinally posted by PVS


The picture thread was hilarious but here he was just doin a few cut and paste moves!!!!

I do miss him though, do you?

blushing blushing

^
^
I still thing the new ones nicer

yeah, i miss him...like the plague

Yeah.... embarrasing.

no it's flattering!

Yeah, change it back for me.

You wish.