How do Yoda and Obi-Wan KNOW Vader is Anakin?

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Jedi Priestess
Ush, I did a search and didnt see this........if it's been done feel free to merge.

Before I start I have but one request....please post your answers INTELLIGENTLY.......the level of "joke" answers to serious Q's in this room has risen dramatically lately and I for one would like some serious thought put into your replys to this question, it's all I ask.

I have always wondered just how both Yoda and Obi-Wan know that Vader is Anakin. In ROTJ Luke has conversations with both of them that makes it obvious that they knew. But what I can't figure out for certain is HOW that occurred? If everything we are hearing is to be believed, as far as Obi-Wan knows Anakin "died" when he fell into the lava pit and reported such news to Yoda and Bail. I'm sure as well that the Emperor did not "advertise" so to speak, the identity of his new apprentice. SO, all that being said..........what are your thoughts? huh

Gangularis
ask a stupid question. and you get stupid answers.. that's all i have to say in response to your red type.

Bartman99
well its kinda obvious-
some uber angry jedi who hunted the jedis dies and shortly after that a dark sith lord is back and he hunts the jedis again?!

yerssot
ah come on JP... that you don't know that wink

In ANH:
"HE is here..."
-"Obi Wan Kenobi? Surely he must be dead by now!"

how come Vader knew OB1 was on the deathstar without seeing him?
"I sense something, a presence I have not felt since ..."

so, if you have a certain connection with someone, you can figure out by sensing who he is (and since Vader doesn't have a connection with luke yet, he can't figure out he's his father yet)

That's how they KNOW it's him.

That's the movie explanation up to now, I believe
of course, you can go and have the other one, which Bartman pretty much summed up...: an insane chosen one kills jedi by the bushes and all of a sudden when you think you killed him, a new Sith Lord rises and appears to be mighty good...

Unholly_Cheese
How old is obi-wan?

nigeyo2000
That is a very good point, they DO know, you can tell by the way Obi-Wan talks to Luke about his father in ANH " Darth vader, he betrayed and murdered your father".

Maybe they find out before Obi-Wan goes to tatooine and thats what's being discussed by obi-wan & yoda on the tantive iv (BTH picture) along with where he will take luke. Yoda may sense that young skywalker is still alive and turned to the darkside ! which would fit in nicely.

Lucas likes to tie up all the little bits, but will he on this one !!??

cavola
^ i would have said something similar.

Yoda & Obi1 conversing after the final duel. that would give away the reason how they know. besides Yoda can still be sensing Anakin's exceptional midi-chlorians within the force telling obi1 " I fear skywalker on the dark side within this life he still is" with Obi1 responding " thats impossible master Yoda; Anakin has perished in the flames"

the answer would need to lie between the end of the duel and the termination of the film .

smoker4
Maybe its also something to do with the balance of the force, cause by the time cavola is talking about, wont most of the jedi be wiped out by the clone troopers? so maybe their ability to use the force has gone back up and maybe the darkside isnt clouding everything???? no expression

Darth Sauron
They went to the corusant name changing office blink ?

checked the files.....

cavola
glad you get my drift

yoda had sensed in him much fear when he was a kid so therfore when Anakin turns to the dark side that would send ripples through the force i imagine.
the force is felt and Yoda would be aware

Anakin confronts Obi1 over the Padme issue

Anakin is left for dead after the duel

But wise Yoda could sense Anakin's force rejuvinated and completely on the dark side after Darth Sidious resseructs Ani as Darth Vader.

I am just speculating.....................................

nigeyo2000
its deffo between the duel and end of the film

do u think we will see ?

i think we've seen it already....

nigeyo2000
i agree cavola, yoda will sense Darth Vader

it can only be that way

or someone tells them....maybe

Jedi Priestess
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
and you proved my point about the level of your intelligence with what you chose to post! I was 100% certain that if I put that red type there, that there would be a few idiots that would ignore it. And 3 of you proved me right! eek!



I too think it has to be Yoda and Obi-Wan being able to sense that Anakin is still alive, as evidenced by the quote Yerssot provided.

Gangularis
LOL.. then you know nothing of my intelligence. Have a super swell day now!

PS you own these forums you legend you.

Jedi Priestess
It is my opinion that you couldnt post intelligently if your life depended on it. And I own nothing here RAZ is god.

Red Superfly
Spoilers:

*Obi-Wan and Yoda are confronted by Darth Vader*

Obi-Wan: "Who the f**k?"

Yoda: "F**k who the?"

Vader (in whiny kid voice): "Allow me to introduce myself........"

Obi-Wan: "Anakin?"

Vader (in whiny kid voice): "Godammit! I forgot to switch on my amazingly cool new voicebox!" *switches it on*

Obi-Wan: "Anakin, I thought you were dead.........."

Vader (now with the voice of a black man): "I've had a racial re-orientation, I am now black. Back in black. Black to the bone.

MC Hammer, Mr.T, I'm Darth Vader, you can't touch me"

Obi-Wan: "He's now a highly skilled rapper. He IS the chosen one"

Darth Vader: "All hail the Emperor!"

Yoda: "All hail the Emp....."

*Obi-Wan smacks Yoda upside the head*

Obi-Wan: "What are you doing? RUN!"

----------------------

That's how they know.

nigeyo2000
^^^ thats why i left force.net

when do u think they will find out JP ??

when obi-wan & yoda are talking on the Tantive iv?

Jedi Priestess
wtg Red you've just demonstrated that you are a true literary legend....

I honestly dont think they will be aware of Anakins presence until the OT.

nigeyo2000
so how do they know ?

they must sense it b4 the end of ROTS

or someone tells them ?

Jedi Priestess
I honestly dont know for sure.....thats why I made the thread, why do you think they know before the end of EP3? I'm curious.

Red Superfly
Seriously I believe they will know, they'll learn that Vader is Anakin somehow.

They should find out themselves. Vader should be revealed to them, or he confronts them.

It'd be cool if he acted slightly cocky toward Obi-Wan, in the way he did in Episode 4.

nigeyo2000
My honest opinion would be that they know anakin is called DV and that he has gone to the darkside BEFORE the duel. I reckon they know after the duel/death of Mace

maybe anakin says to ???? that he no longer knows the name anakin.... only vader

Red Superfly
That would be cool also - to see Anakin pre-crispy as Darth Vader.

Xanatos
Doesnt he take the Darth Vader name before he falls in the lava. Anakin probaly says "Im Vader now" or something.They would also hear about a guy named vader being second in comand in the empire. There for that could also be how the know hes alive and that he's Vader.

Red Superfly
That sounds SO like Anakin.

"I'm Vader now"

"He doesn't understand"

"He's holding me back"

"I wet the bed"

It just seems to flow with his character, so whiny. I like it.

Xanatos
HIs son's worse.

smoker4
^^^^ Good point Xanatos

maybe after the incident with mace, he gets the Vader moniker, e.g Obi - "Anakin?" Anakin/DV "That name no longer has any meaning to me" wink

Jedi Priestess
I'd kind of like there to be a reveal myself.................but I dont see it happening.......if you remember in ANH when Vader says "I sense a presence, something I have't felt since..." He seems genuinely bewildered about it being there...so I definitely dont think they see each other after the duel.

cylob49
Mebbe they read the spoilers allowed forums

smoker4
That might imply that Vader thinks Obi-wan is dead, but Obi-wan knows what happened to Anakin "He's more machine now than man, twisted and evil"

cavola
they too will sense him, and would have sensed something similar before.

in epII, when Anakin slaughtered the tusken raiders, Yoda is sensing his pain and anger. In epIII i would suppose Yoda senses anakin's anger for Dooku because of losing his hand, sensing anger as well for the Jedi order because Obi1 still holds him back as a padwan, when Anakin believes that he would be more powerful than Obi1 due to the fact that on Anakin's missions, ( his anger grows when Padme starts to fear Anakin as well ) he has actually proved the order that he can tackle it on his own without any help.
But he is still tied down to the order so this is were Palpatine comes in who as Darth Sidious senses that Anakin has the potential to become evil and regardless from the Jedi order.

Palps lures Anakin to the Dark side after he slays Mace Windu down, and convinces the 'maybe Vader some day later' that the Jedi are no good for the galaxy and no good for Anakin's ambitions.

Yoda senses his turn to the dark side and hopefully sounds the alarm.

Obi1 believes that he knows his padwan and could try to convince anakin to become good again.

after the fight Obi1 returns to Yoda but altough Kenobi saw Anakin fall , he still senses anakin's evil. something is wrong; something is not quite right. ......................

time goes by and they all get older leaving the force with 2 Jedi and the Revenge of the Sith outbalanced. As Vader is now very powerful since resiliance and being brought back to life, both Jedi wonder if they are feeling correctly:

that is Anakin is still alive but completly enveloped with the Dark shroud of the sith. I think they find it hard to recognise that a little boy had now become so Evil and Dark that anyone they ever met.

Jedi Priestess
WOW cavola......I'm impressed! smile and Im being serious. yes

cavola
for someone like me who hasnt seen the episodes 4,5,6, for at least 15 years i am impressed with myself as well . big grin

yerssot
Vader can be "surprised" in ANH cause he might have thought the same as Tarkin... OB1 dying of old age ?

Jedi Priestess
maybe but Im not buying that Yers.........I really think vader thinks OW was wiped out with the rest of the Jedi.

yerssot
me too, just suggesting wink

Cowboyography
I also think that perhaps Anikan will have already taken the Name vader by the time of the duel. After he kills Mace, Anikan may becomes Palps pupil then.

Jedi Priestess
He aligns himself with Palpatine at that time to be sure, but the Vader name wont be given to him until after the duel I believe.

yerssot
that reminds me, he becomes the bodyguard of Palpatine, no?
the same palpatine who turns out to be sidious...

that should ring a bell too with them

PVS
<----puts on flame-proof armor

ok, i know this will rub some the wrong way, but i dont care... stick out tongue

for someone with such a deep hatred and thirst for vengence toward ben, does vader not seem almost amused by the sensation of the disturbance in the force? the whole film he's yelling and killing and barking orders, but in the hangar scene he seems to slip off into a daydream.
he then walks off with his head in the clouds to meditate on what he sensed.

why did he not know it was ben right away? if he felt the presence of a powerful force-user, it could only be ben, right? why did he not storm the falcon and tear it apart with the same urgency as on the tantive4?

so here is a theory:
is it possible that the 'presence' and the 'tremor in the force' vader points out in ANH is none other than...luke? the same disturbance that the emporer points out in esb?
the same disturbance that vader may sense as obiwan and baby luke escape in episode3?

vader: a tremor in the force...the last time i felt it was in the presence of my old master.
(the tremor and obiwan are seperate)

vader: you should not have come back.
(which could mean that obiwan could have encountered and escaped mechanical darth vader in ep3, and also notice how ben seems not too surprised at vader's appearence.)

palpatine: there is a great disturbance in the force....we have a new enemy....luke skywalker.
(disturbance=tremor in my book)

well, to tie all that into the topic, i think that ben will either see or actuall meet the mechanical darth vader. it would be brief, with no duel. i picture an escape scene similar to the end of ESB, with vader on the bridge of a star destroyer, meditation on the occupants of the escaping ship, possibly the tantiv. i think its possible that he will sense ben and another strange presence...or tremor, shall we say.

<-----ducks behind flame-proof wall

Darth_Duffy
not sure of the exact words but in ANH doesnt vader say something along the lines of 'a presence ive not felt since....'
indicating that the presence he feels is one that he has before, and seeing as he'd never encountered luke he must have been talking about obi-wan.

Ken Benobi
Good points PVS- Myself...I would lean toward the idea that they always knew it was Vader for several reasons: (some of these were touched on earlier)

1) Anakin is one of a kind, no one is as powerful as he is, so to see someone flying around the galaxies tearing everything up, who else could demonstrate that kind of power?

2) If Obi-Wan thought Anakin died in the lava, wouldn't he be surprised at how quickly Palpatine got another very powerful apprentice?

3) This one is probably most convincing to me. They all had a connection together. Even in all of Anakin's rage and hatred in AOTC, you can tell Obi-Wan(and I think Yoda too) have a close place in his heart...."he's like a father to me". They shared a lot of adventures together. And as was said earlier, Yoda is very sensitive in the force. He sees ahead, senses Anakin's pain, and I think also his presence. Also, according to ESB, Yoda was watching Luke for quite some time, from across the galaxy..."long have I watched this one.."(or something to that extent).

Anakin2Vader
I dont know how but I have to believe that Obi Wan and Yoda both know that Anakin has now become Vader... but he could just as easily say they figured it out over the next 20 years

cavola
poor poor anakin: the shit he went through was terrible.

1) they come along and made wager for his release like he is some kind of object

2) they seperate him from his mother

3) he is trained by a padwan (obi1) when this padwan didnt even finish his training with Qui Gon

4) He saves the life of his master a number of times (aggressive negotiations) and still gets mocked by his master for being too 'formal' in his actions.

5) He suffers the loss of his mother , and grieves , but Obi 1 tells him he should not have gone back to tatooine. (altough thats why younglings are seperated from their parents at an early age so that they cannot suffer or grief)

6) he saves obi1's life a couple of more times in ep3 and prob. Obi1 will still be giving him shit

7) Anakin knows he has potential but the Jedi are not letting hime exploit it. only Palpatine tells him that he sees anakin become more powerful than master yoda.

8) Probably grieves again because of padme's death

9) Finally Obi1 has an affair with padme and then expects anakin to become good again by having a Jedi chit chat .................



I mean WHO THE F*** do u think u are Kenobi ? do you know how frustrating this is on Anakin do have passed through all that $hit .

I would have done the same thing and tried to get rid of him

Ken Benobi
are we still talking about Star Wars or is it something else.....
What the f**k?

cavola
i was explaing why he turned to the dark side ........................ehm........i think i over did it or misposted in action

Ken Benobi
disguise

Jedi Priestess

nigeyo2000
I agree with u guys on moist points here, but i think the question is not if they know but HOW & WHEN ?

I reckon it starts after ani kills mace....

anytime from then to the duel

finti
If we think of some of the libnes in ROTJ it seems pretty obvious that they are fully awere of Anakins turn to the dark side. Also the fact that Obi knows about Anakins transformation into Vader.

Obi Wan "He is more machine now than man twisted and evil"

And the discusion between Luke and Vader
Luke " Come with me"
Vader " Obi-Wan once thought as you do"
evidence of Obis attempt to turn Anakin back from the dark side, which I believe leads to their duel

jedijunky1138
Anakin will be given the name darth vader after he kills Mace. This is when Palpatine reveals himself to anikan. When Obi-Wan confronts Anakin, Anakin will probably tell him that that name no longer means any thing to him. Then he will reveal his new name. Then soon after when the empire has been formed and the Emperor's new henchman has the same name they mput two and two together.

P.S. Good Question JP.

Cowboyography
Thats what I feel could happen as well jedijunky. Also PVS to bacj up your theory, when vader is chasing luke in the trench on the first death star. Vader says "The force is strong with this one" So he may have sensed luke on the Falcon, However while Kenobi is sneaking around behind Vaders back, its clear vader senses Kenobi.

Jedi Priestess
well that sounds pretty plausible to me as well JJ......now think on this I must.....

cavola
WOW ! if thats whats going to happen, i am looking forward to that part .
i was thinking of the part when anakin is hanging looking upwards (probably towards Kenobi)

he could say something similar to :

" I am Darth Vader ; i shall have my revenge"

Ushgarak
1. It's what he wanted

2. It's what he choose.

3. It was needed to restore balance to the Force

4. Master and Padawan- they save each other; Obi-Wan's complaints about Anakin's increicble impatience and juvenile nature are valid

5. Well, he shouldn't, should he? What did he achieve?

6. Any shit he gets he deserves

7. And with good reason

8. He shouldn't have become so attached to her

9. Speculation

Anakin is an ass. Simple as that.

As for the thread...

"Obi-Wan once thought as you do."

Once thought what? That Vader could be turned back into Anakin.

Obi-Wan knew, even then.

Jedi Priestess
you really think so Ush?


and I will NEVER EVER buy the Obi-Wan having and affair with Padme crap messed

Darth_Duffy
you'd have to be a utter fool to believe that, sorry

Ushgarak
Well, how could he think that if he didn't know?

Ken Benobi
the affair thing kinda goes against anything we've ever seen of their character IMO- (I think cavola was being sarcastic there....)

Gangularis
aww i'm sad now.

instead of that facade of an image you use in your sig and as an avatar, why don't you put what you really look like... i bet that would be good for a few laughs.

cavola
1) Of course thats what he wanted; freedom - no-one wants to be a slave. but making a wager ? shouldnt the Jedi be against slavery ?

2) But it was a choice with no alternative ; abusing a child mind that is because whatever you will tell a kid whats best he would eventually give in

3)It was YES needed to restore balance to the force but from a master not a padwan

4) point made

5) he achieved emotion ;anger he was not meant to induce cause of its consequences . and what shouldnt he should he ? They killed his mother !! what would u expect ? a Guiness party like Irish custom ?

6) http://www.planetsmilies.com/smilies/sign/3/sign04.gif U teach me how to save life and when i save it you should be glad that your teachings worked. then we discuss how master should stop being presumptous by playing master and endangering life

7) Good reason would have been Yoda : " I sense much fear in you; get out of this office and dont come back to Coruscant" " I dont care what Qui Gon says....i am not risking"

8) Well losing someone who is really attached to you normally does that

9) As far as i know Anakin finds out that something happened between between Obi1 & Padme while he was away. In what way did he interpret it justifyies what is the meaning of the truth when man believes only what he wants to believe

Anakin is an Ass : (that explains him winning a pod race against sepulba , jumping into a starfighter and flying it with R2 with no experiencewhatsoever, C3PO, and Watto's unwillingness to let him go........jumping out of a speeder and landing exactly on an assasin's speeder)

Jedi Priestess
hysterical

Jedi Priestess
Just for the fool who assumes Im hideous and only for about 10 minutes....The Priestess

now you can stfu! eek!

EDIT: Times up....

Jedi Priestess
and you missed it......you'll have to ask Havoc he saw it.

cavola
take that wig off your face ; you bleached my screen pixels !

Jedi Priestess
blink what? laughing out loud thats my HAIR you dork! but I'll admit is IS bleached wink

cavola
for those of you who missed it well.................sadly you missed something ............and JP does look like that Avi. with shorter hair of course and without all that make up.

she looks good without make-up

Ken Benobi
I was out of the room getting dinner, but I saw her daughters, pretty girls smile

Jedi Priestess
it was my daughter Ken.....just one

Jedi Priestess
awww thnx blushing blushing

cavola
so were where we ? Oh yes ;

So who reckons Anakin will tell Obi1 he is Darth Vader ? will sidious 'baptise' him as Darth Vader ?

darth_surgent
I can't believe I missed JP. I miss everything.

cavola
Oh man ...........u should have seen that lovely wall behind her.
it the KITCHEN MAN ;

A COOL KITCHEN MAN ; DUDE U MISSED IT ! eek!

Gangularis
(Offensive post removed)

Ken Benobi
blushing hehe...well then..... wink

Jedi Priestess
Look Gangularis, I dont know what woman pissed in your Post Toasties but why dont you just IGNORE what I post if it bothers you so damned much?

queeq
Official warning here, G! mad

OUtrageous language with absolutely now reason to talk like taht. If you cannot bring yourself to showing even the slightest bit of respect for forum member, we have to reconsider how welcome your are. Shape up, dude!

finti
indeed, dont mind the mindless fool JP

queeq
Two mods on your ass, G. Better watch it!

Gangularis
i didn't disrespect first. i gave a reasonable response to something she said in red type and she choose to call me an idiot for what i had to say.


/biased mods.

queeq
This is not a debate, G.

Gangularis
didn't know clearing up facts was debating

/biased mods.

queeq
You got a warning. Take it!

Gangularis
already did.. chill out.

queeq
I am chill, dude. Now move along.

Gangularis
LOL.. are you stormtrooper?

most mods would do this through PM..

queeq
LOL.... whatver it takes, dude.

Gangularis
*belch*.. fine, moves along.

queeq
Nice burp.

Jedi Priestess
hysterical queeq you are killing me

queeq
Always, dear.

Ushgarak
Geez, I am glad you don't run the Galaxy!

1. Yes, making a wager- it was the way to free him. Yes, Jedi are against slavery but QGJ is not God; he cannot click his fingers and make it end. He did the right thing in the circumstances.

2. It was his DESTINY. Qui-Gon knew that. That settles it.

3. If Obi-Wan had not chosen to do it, no-one else would have, and that would have been the end of that.

5. ALL he achieved was to send himself on the path to the Dark Side. He did not save or help anyone and he DID slaughter a load of innocents. If he had done as he was meant to and severed his emotional tis- listened to Obi-Wan- this would never have happened.

6. Anakin is ill-disciplined, selfish, over-emotional and immature. It is 100% Obi-Wan's job to criticise and attempt to correct that.

7. No, that would have been stupid, because then you would have no Chosen One and the Sith would win.

8. You are not MEANT to be attached! That was entirely his fault! That is the rather obvious point! Anakin's failing is his over-attachment.

9. Now you are just babbling- the quote is irrelevant, and no, no such thing happened.

Now, let me close this decisively. George Lucas himself says QGJ did the right thing in freeing Anakin and choosing to train him. If he had not, the Sit would have won everlasting. Anakin had a destiny to save the Galaxy- but before he finally got there in ROTJ, he made a conscious decision to reject that destiny and choose something far darker. He did that because of HIS failings.

And yes, the cicmsances were not ideal; he was too old, and Obi-Wan not experineced enough. But it was still right thing to do. In the final analysis, the fault for things going wrong... is entirely down to Anakin and his own failings.

---


Incidentally, as a note to everyone, anyone acting like Gangularis just did, either in abuse to another member or backchat to the mods, will be warned and then banned. This is not up for discussion- it is just information from me. Thankyou.

---

Now, does anyone have any more remarks on-topic?

queeq
I doubt it after that post. wink

darth_surgent
I agree with everything that you said, yet I believe that Obi-Wan still needs to be recognized in some way as having failed. Lucas makes it clear that he wants, in some way, for Obi-Wan to be considered as having failed Anakin. However, though it seems antithetical to say so, failure does not always mean that the fault was necessarily his. It was not his fault that he was inexperienced and forced into the position as Anakin's master. He could not properly teach, develop, and control Anakin, and so I say that he failed, yet, I do not blame him. He did his best, and was up against horrible odds, which no one could be expected to overcome.

It may seem like I am getting bogged down in semantics, but all that I want to make clear is that Obi-Wan fails in that regard, making him less than perfect, as all of us are.

And yes, almost all of Anakin's actions are his own responsibility and his own fault.

Ushgarak
Oh yeah, Obi-Wan fails- in fact, GL says Yoda fails as well. But yes, it is still very important to the story that the most important failing is Anakin's own- it is all his own choice; as much as it is finally his own choice to redeem himself.

However, interesting though that is, it's not actually the topic; we can open up a new thread if we want to debate that.

queeq
I guess it has more to to with OB1 feeling than actually failing. With Anakin's destiny and all, no one could have prevented Anakin's fall. So in a sense OB1 was dealt the bad card and feels guilty/responsible for Anakin's fall.

finti
well according to ROTJ OB1 feels guilty,
Still I am convinced that both Yoda and Ob1 is aware of Anikans transformation into Vader. How they know it , well maybe ROTS will give us the answer to that question. But I am convinced they know and by ANH they are the only one left alive to know too, besides Emp and Vader

queeq
What do you mean "aware of Anakin's tranformation into Vader"? Aware during the PT's?

PVS
damn i missed the drama wink
but worst of all, i missed JP's pic sad

queeq
Quite a show you missed there.

guiro72
Man, lotta information in this thread, and the catfight in the middle totally distracted me from my train of thought.....

1. tarkin doesn't think obi wan was killed in ep III, he says "he must be dead BY NOW"....anakin is his source of information, so therefore anakin doesn't believe obi wan is dead (after the duel)

2. i don't think anakin and obi wan meet again after the duel until ep IV

3. i think anakin must be named vader before the duel, and reveals this to obi wan during the duel, as others have said. I've read things that hint at this i think (maybe pablo, can't remember) but i'd never really sat down and put all the pieces together, so this thread has been quite enlightening for me on that front. (it would be a lot easier for anakin to slaughter jedi children if he was divorced from his previous personality somewhat by then)

4. on cavola's points to do with anakin being hardly done by: there's enough in the films to make us empathise with why anakin acts the way he does, we all have elements like this to our personalities at times. But he is clearly a pain in the ass. he has a tantrum and destroys an entire village, he tells obi wan to get f*****d at every oportunity, and constantly whinges that he doesn't get enough respect, even though the rules of the entire jedi order have been bent to allow him in (he doesn't seem real grateful to be freed either, considering that's against qui gon's job description - it's like he expects special treatment). imagine someone you know who is quite talented, but who tells you so at every oportunity. Imagine talking to your boss or teacher the same way anakin talks to obi wan. If you disagree with someone in authority there are subtle ways to discuss matters, anakin has no diplomacy or social grace.

I could say more but this post is getting too long, and i'm off topic anyway. I am looking forward to rewatching ep I, and seeing that look anakin gives mace in the jedi council scene. Now that we know what's to come.

PVS
hmmmm....so in other words...anakins a total prick laughing

guiro72
well, there's enough there that we can identify with in ourselves, so that we can understand his motivation. but yeah, he's seriously cocky as all hell. and has a real problem with authority. (check when he ignores qui gon and steals the fighter at the end of ep I - there's loads of examples)

he's supposed to be so helpful and nice in ep I, but jake lloyd's bad acting makes me think he's playing everyone for suckers even there.

other than that point out one time he doesn't act like an ass?

i've just remembered the scene where obi wan gives him props in the helicopter, and he looks proud. I'd never really thought about it before, nice scene.

cornponious
I wouldn't call your response "reasonable". It's obvious you're nothing but a lice-infested troll.

A rock-troll, at that. I guess I'd better not be too hard on you, though, because I don't want to make you go crying to your mommy.

I don't think there was any call for the insults you have flung. I'm pretty positive JP, or Spadesmama, or respectable mother, or whatever you want to call her, has more class in her little finger than you have in your 2 inch penis.

Find a different board to aggravate.

cornponious

queeq
Cornponious! I warned Gangularis about his manners in addressing people. I see now difference in your behaviour here as well. A warning for you too! Shape up, dude!

"If you can't say something nice, don't say nothing at all" - Thumper

PVS
queeq dishing out the spankings eek!

queeq
It hurts me more than them.

cornponious
Hey, the punk had it coming. I had to get it off my chest. I'm done now.

smile

Technically, I'm too old to let things like this bother me, but this one just rubbed my rhubarb the wrong way.

cornponious (kuntrious kokious maximus)

cornponious
LMAO!


Thanks, dad.


cornponious

queeq
You could have fooled me...

PVS
as insulting as Gangularis was, i doubt we can predict how well or not well he is endowed, so moving right along...

the line that gets me is this:

"he's more machine now than man...twisted and evil"

this tells me that the mech vader is even more evil that the one obiwan duels with on mustafar. since that version of vader was more man than machine (his arm) so i must assume that between the time anakin falls in the lava and the credits rolling at the end of the film, vader will prove himself to be truely evil...as if attacking padme and trying to cut down his old master and fiend werent enough...

PVS
another line that gets me:
"Sisssssster! so...we have a twin sisssster...
obiwan was wise to hide her from me...now his failure is complete"

obiwan was wise to hide HER...what about luke?
shouldn't he have said "...obiwan was wise to hide
you two from me" so, by saying that doesn't vader imply that obiwan did NOT hide luke from him? perhaps vader knew about luke during and before
epIV...

here's another line that gets me...
aunt beru: ...he has to much of his father in him
uncle owen: thats what i'm afraid of

how does owen know of anakin's fall?

queeq
Vader knew about Luke sometime between ANH and Empire... but he only found out about Leia from Luke's thoughts. Either of the twins was a key to defeating Anakin and the Emperor. It seems like OB1 and Yoda would try the twins out one at a time. And male chauvinist pigs as they were, they picked Luke first... wink

And I think Vader got pretty pissed from OB1's "betrayal" and for loosing most of his magnificent bod, that that made him even more evil.

cornponious
I believe that OWK will take young Luke to Owen and Beru to be raised. It only stands to reason that he will tell Owen WHY Luke is to be raised by them.


cornponious

cornponious
Although I'm curious as to why Luke's last name was not changed "to protect the innocent."

corn

queeq
Because Lucas is making this up as he goes...

Gangularis
It's ok, you really don't know anything about me.

cornponious
Rather!

corn

PVS
gangularis, just let it go.

corn, as far as the skywalker name, i wonder the same thing myself.
that is a fact i left out of my last post by accident. yes, why did leah have the name organa, and luke DIDN'T have the name Lars? perhaps there was no need to hide his identity from vader, since it was already known?

and queeq, as far as lucas making everything up as he goes along, you are correct. but wasnt that the case since he finished ANH?
now its not a case of just making up new things, but tying the old things together.

he must make sense out of the nonesence, as he did in ROTJ with the whole POV dialogue. that is why i think these lines which point out inconsistancy are VERY important clues on how ep3 will roll out into ep4. im sure as much as they ring in our heads, they must echo loudly in GL's head. since he doesnt seem to be erasing these lines, i would hope that he will use ep3 to solidify them, one way or another.

queeq
Indeed. Making things up as you go is fine if you're moving forward. Now he's moving backward and finds himself limited or even hindered by what he made up before. Still, he is making a lot of things up as he goes. I just hope he doesn't go overboard with linking evything up and explaining everything. I personally feel he came a little too close to the edge IMHO by explaining Boba Fett's background. I personally liked him better as the ruthless-but-very-mysterious bounty hunter, whom no one knows anything about. Sergio Leone made three westersn with guys like that, especially Eastwood's character. I didn't NEED any background inof to like him. Heck that guy didn't even have a name in THREE consecutive films.
It feels sometimes like Lucas is finding out now he wants to tell a somehwat different story than what he made almost 30 years ago.

cavola
however you gotta allow me to get back to you on some points you counter retracted on Anakin's emotional frustration. but not just yet . ASAP. coz im a bit busy tonight.

queeq
That debating the topic, cavola....not backchatting a warning.

Ushgarak
And do it in a new thread, please.

cavola
Im talking about running the galaxy .......dudes

queeq
Leave that to us mods. wink

darth_surgent
Here is what I find to be likely. It is not entirely confirmed, yet highly probable that there will be a scene in the middle of the movie where Anakin receives his Sith title. If so, then I would argue that during his duel with Obi-Wan, he simply tells him. People have said it before, and I will say it again. I believe that Anakin will plainly tell Obi-Wan that he has joined with Palpatine and has been given the title of Darth Vader. Problem solved.

Sith Master X
Yeah, I agree that he'll let Obi-Wan in on that. And I do believe he gets his title before he goes behind the mask.

cornponious
Whoah, are you saying that there is a possibility that Anakin will be named Darth Vader BEFORE he battles ObiWan and receives the "Vader suit"?

That would really change a lot of opinions.


cornponious

Darth_Duffy
i thought that all along, i mean especially if anakin commits himself to sideous before the duel it would make sense that he gives anakin the title of darth vader at the time

Ken Benobi
this idea might be out there a bit, but here's another one:

After Anakin is saved from the lava following the dual, one of the remaining Jedi could follow from a distance and observe their movements and Anakin's recovery, kinda like Obi-Wan did on Geonosis. And Obi-Wan and Yoda could be listening to the Jedi's report via comlink, when suddenly the line goes dead as the Jedi was discovered and quickly killed by Anakin.....then they would know......

Sith Master X
That's a very plausible theory Ken. thumb up

queeq
The name Darth Vader doesn't come with the suit I think. Maul doesn't wear a suit like that, neither do Palpy and Dooku. Yet they all have the Darth titles. If anakin turns halfway the movie, it strikes me as quite normal that he receives his Darth title.... not when he's chopped in half. IMHO

darth_surgent
Well, I know that what I said was an obvious statement, but this thread is asking how Obi-Wan and Yoda know that Anakin is Darth Vader, and I plainly answered the question in the simplest of terms. And anyway, though it may be simple to you and I, there are many people who get so caught up in whacky theories, that they miss the most likely explanation.

queeq
WHat explanation. They KNOW. Who else could be a powerful Jedi like that? Plsu OB1 would sense it is Anakin. Vader sense OB1 in ANH, they know each other so well, sensing who is who is quite obvious here.

cornponious
Right. My point is that, since the 80's, we all have this image of Darth Vader being the man AND the suit. For many of us, the suit goes with the name. To see Anakin as Darth Vader, but without the suit, would be kind of strange, but I can see it clearly now.

cornponious

finti
you answered it with your view on things

Jedi Priestess
Im just not ready to buy Anakin being called Vader BEFORE he dons the helmet.

queeq
Why not? The suit is an accessory.... Has nothing to do with the man, his capacities and his evil side.

finti
guess it is just the image we have so far is vader being the man in that suit

cornponious
I agree, Finti. That was my view as well.

corn

Jodo kast
the force

PVS
i think it makes sense that anakin becomes darth vader once he kills mace, or allows mace to be killed...whichever. at that point, he is no longer a jedi...having killed the councel leader that is.

and yes, we are all conditioned to think of vader as the mechanical guy, but i think that will change.

queeq
He becomes Darth once Sidious says so. Don't make it more complicated than it is.

cavola
that would be very interesting.

i read somewhere that Palpatine / Sidious despatches Anakin on Mustafaar to get rid of the remainder of the Separatists.......................somewhere i have a pic of Anakin with a hood doing some lightsaber work in that conference room.

If only i could find it

PVS
well of coarse, but it stands to reason that the act of sidious...coming out of the closet...will coincide with anakin deciding to join the sith.

anakin: wow palpatine, you're so awesome, i want to be just like you.
palps: i am a sith lord.
anakin:i want to be a sith lord too.

i write it in joking form, but i am serious.

sidious will be exposed by mace, in front of anakin as a sith lord.
after that point, doesnt it make sense that anakin would join the sith.
like, palps or anakin kills mace, palps says "you shall be my apprentice...yadda yadda yadda" at that point he would give vader his name, right?

Darth Cain
I'm wondering when Anni does get his new name. I could see it being after Palpatine, umm, reveals himself. Besides, I just think its obvious who this new guy in armor is.

Capt_Fantastic
"through the force, things you will see...."

cavola
Then Anakin appairs in the door, who is sent to Mustafar by Palpatine to slay the remaining separatists. But Obi-Wan has learns what Anakin has done and confronts him in this very room. The fight starts between the Master and Apprentice, leading to a terible end.

cavola
told you ; he is already sith in this. and perhaps anakin was living a double life after killing windU ; same as Palpatine

cornponious
Caption this photo:


"I'm singin' in the rain, just siiiiingin' in the rain...!"


corn

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