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As most of the Arab states are either kingdoms or dictatorships or theocracies and have been for hundreds of years I was wondering if they know what democracy is at all and would they recognise it and value it if they had it ?

Honestly I don't know that they even give a shit whether their country is a democracy. It's not right that we're trying to make their country something that they may or may not want it to be.

Actually, I think it might be a somewhat hard to just switch from kingdom/dictatorship to a democracy....

You all remember how hard it was in Germany after Keiser Wilhelm...the democrasy came and people just....didnt know what to do.

Im sure they would eventualy get used to it. Then again, we are all under the illusion that we live in democratic country...while we in fact are not.

Indeed. Democracy isn't as great as we're led to believe.

there is no perfect system.
there all have their disadventages, but a lot of ppl nowadays (eg mr bush) believes that democracy is the best

I agree with you people it would be way better if we all lived under a dictator where only one religion is allow and if you dont "fit that build" you get kill.. or better yet a communist country Yahhhh yes Communism a classless society what a great Paradise that would be Living on a collective farm wondering if your going to be the next to die from some third world disease...oww and the secret police now theres something to wish for...
but back to the topic i dont think its so much the Democratic government system they will have a hard time excepting its religion and womens rights they will have a hard time with...Like most of the hate filled people of that world (and way to much of the rest) i cant see them ever excepting Jews

Nobody said they wanted it to be a dictatorship, dumbass. We merely said that Democracy is not necessarily the best form of government for every country.

Second, the word is "accepting", not "excepting". And I don't understand what makes you think the Iraqi people are "hate filled". If anything you're the hate filled one here.

After being under the rule of Saddam for so long, the whole freedom thing is hard for some of them to accept. Some of them may want to stick to how it was, most will welcome this new freedom and some are letting it go to their heads and abusing this new found freedom. In time i think they will accept that they now live in a democracy, it will just take time to adjust.

Darth Revan: I never said Democracy is the only form of Government that works i was showing that what the world has had beffor works a lot less. You tell me what works better???

about my spelling errors as soon as you find a cure for dyslexics and a cure for my recently broking wrist i promise ill never spell anything wrong again.

"If anything you're the hate filled one here." Im the Hate filled one?? lets see who called who a "Dumbass" dont think it was me i dont like to make fun of people i dont know, but whatever floats your boat. idk

I called you a dumbass because of your plainly ignorant post. You called the Iraqi people hate filled, you obviously know very little about other forms of government, you assume that just because we all agree on Democracy being overrated we like dictatorships better.

I dont think i said the Iraqis themselves are Hate filled im talking about that part of the world in general they hate the western civilization they hate christins and Catholics and Atheists and every chance they get they try to kill all the Jews. ( dont think im some kind of Religious nut im an atheist) and im not saying they all are but there is lots and lots of umm

and maybe your right i dont no that much about other forms of government. my education there stops at the high school level. but i am a military history Major so, "i do no a thing or to about a thing or to" a quote from one of my favorite teachers

Of course they understand democracy, they just dont want it, or many of them are brainwashed that it is EVil so it's a lost cause or a catch 22. eigther way i could give a fu*ck less about an Iraqi, a pakistani or any other ani country and their needs, what about americas Us the peopls needs. Many of these fuc*k heads come here to our country and complain about us right in our faces, and we are catering to their needs and religon. In schools you cant wear a Cross or pray, a jew cant wear a Yamikah (excuse the mis spelling) But a ****in muslim can wear a their religous scarf or what ever the hell it is around there heads and faces. What is this shit? We cant practice the religon that this country was founded on in our own schools, but a foign country who wants to tear us apart can. Well it is our fault, we take it, because everyone wants to get rid of the freedom of religon in this country, and you know what. You;re succeeding. The freedom of religoun in this country is what keeps it morale, free, and in order.Assuming we put the constitution first of course. So fu*ck all arabs and muslimc and their political views. How about the civilized human beings politcal views on democracy.

I don't know what the hell you're talking about. First of all, we attacked them. Second, nobody's preventing anybody from wearing a cross or a yarmulka (sp) in school. Third, they have every reason to be mad at us, after we went and tore their country apart. And they have understandably been given a bad first impression of democracy... You would feel the same way if a bunch of macho idiots from a foreign country came to your house demanding that you leave or give them your brother or anything else. You can't tell me you wouldn't be pissed if that happened to you. I don't believe how ignorant some people in this country (like you) are.

JRaT>Very few ideas people in the Mid East have about us or any other government or religion are entirely unjustified. Actually, they don't hate Christians, there have been Christians living in the Middle East for thousands of years. Nor do most of them hate Jews. Just because a small, almost insignificant number of them are blowing themselves and Israelis up doesn't mean they hate Jews. Even if they all did, I would hardly blame them, after the Jews came in and basically claimed the Muslim's land for themselves.

All>I can't explain in words how angry and sad it makes me to see people fighting like this. There is no good. There is no evil. There is only hate.

i believe that the people over there had it put in their minds that if they were to follow a form of government that did not coinside with their religion,they would be abandoning their god and therfore would be damded to hell for all eternity.

the people of iraq hate us so much because we are free, even from religon, and they are not. it is our care free attitude towards religon that makes them hate us so much. here you have the freedom from guilt to chose wether or not you are going to be religeous.

I think that they understand democracy but they are afraid of it. I believe that they are afraid it will change their customs of religon. remove it from their everyday life style. it would separate church and state

Back up dude I diddnt insult you for speaking your opinion. You copntradict yourself in saying there is no good there is no evil but only hate, yet you want to enforce hate by calling me ignorant for using my god given rights that this country was founded on and many many many many good people, people far better than you and made of far stronger stuff than you could ever hope to even dream to become, died so you and i can speak our opinions in support of sticking up for this country or even bashing it. I believe in my goverment,yeah it's not pefect but it is free. i believe Bush, i believe there were weapons of mass destruction. My mother is a nurse. She has to go to work and witness soldiers who came back from iraq and have cancer contracted by chemical weapons used is Iraq, she has to watch these people die at the age of 23, because they went to defend the country and yet every one hear doesnt want to stand up for it.. I cant believe you are actually defending sadaam and that country. If these were civilized people, this all could have been settled politically.The Iraqi people are happy that America took Sadaam out of power, this is the fact. They are happy to free of him, but they hate us bexcause they are scared that we want to rewrite there culture. We dont. We want to help them and make them free. Yet they still decide to kill us and hate us. They kill mutilate, and strick up the dead burnt bodies and hang them from the bridges and praise this with celebration whil kids smile for the camera and bash the already dead bodies with shovels, all these people were trying to do was rebuild this country, trying to give Iraq clean drinking water which the country hadnt had before, trying to install an electrical grid, as good as America's and Britians so that these people may be able to reach out view the world in more than one perception than they are brainwashed with from birth.

No they dont want it they kill us and slaughter us. Yet you defend them, and blame America because your the ignorant, scared person who refuses face truth and wants to be some self righteous holier than thou philosopher. YOu want to be different. That's fine but dont insult me or any other american speaking my opinion in belief that this is a great country that works and is not a tyrant. I know you have your freedom to infact insult me , but try and be a bigger person than that wont you, and read up on what is going on in the world, try looking at both sides of the table before making your decision.

they only did what they did because they hate us nad well most of us hate them.
we all need to step back and thake a look at our selves before we point our fingers in any one direction

Nobody is "better" than me, not because I'm better than everybody else, but because we're all created equal, which, Mr. Patriotic American, is also one of the founding principals of this country. I'm not "holier than thou", in fact there is very little that bothers me more than people like that. I don't know where you get that. I'm only telling you what I think about the world, which again is something you call my god given right, and yet I get ripped apart by you.

I know what's going on in Iraq, I know how bad the troops over there have it. But I also know that the American troops, by no fault of their own, are doing arguably more harm than good. And by saying that I'm not insulting them, all I'm saying is that it was a huge mistake to get involved in what was none of our business in the first place. Eleven thousand people, from both sides, are now dead because of the government's bullshit political agenda against "terrorism". I'm not defending Saddam, I'm defending the Iraqis. Saddam was cruel beyond belief, and yes, it is good that he is no longer in power.

The people of Iraq didn't "settle it all politically" because they weren't capable of doing that. A bunch of guys with assault rifles come into your house and hold you at gunpoint, and YOU try "settling it politically". They don't hate us because we're rewriting their culture, they hate us because we're killing them. Yes, they're killing us too, but learn something: this is what happens in a war. This is why nobody likes war. If you attempt to control a group of people, you have to expect that they're going to fight back.

Keep it civil people.

Anyways, yes, I believe everyone can grasp what a democracy is. I just don't think everyone wants it for their country, and I don't think it's our business, or anyone elses to tell people how to run their country.

exacly
i meant that but i didn't know how to express it

I second that

Isn't it amazing how a thread about democracy finishes up a slogging match about religion ?

Isn't it also amazing how the two most talked about subjects on the internet are Religion and Racism ?

Anyway.....

Back to the subject....

OK... I will admit that if a country has been ruled by a religious group for hundreds of years, ( a theocracy ), it will be very difficult to try to get that religion...especially Islam...to step aside in favour of Democracy. The other two I mentioned "a Kingdom or a Dictatorship" are such that the one person that has the ultimate power would not like to give up that power in favour of Democracy.

In all three of these cases it is not "the people" that are refusing to accept or understand democracy it is the power-base at the time that will not allow it in.

I think that all people can be educated to understand what democracy is if given the chance !

NOW....That point about the Western world not REALLY having democracy....

I think that we take for granted the democracy that we do have as we are too lazy to apply it as it is meant to be applied.

If you just stop for a minute and look at the mile-long queues that some African peoples - in fledgling democracies - make in the torturing heat for maybe two days and nights just so that they can lay their little crosses...then you may not take the easy democracy that we have in our countries for granted ever again.

just stay here a few more weeks and you know every thread ends up in a talk about that

Give it a few more pages and this topic will transform into another Bush is an idiot thread.

have to agree with those two above ^^

Not going to argue with THAT idea I must admit !

and then it becomes a thread involving an overtly amount of flirting

What's wrong with a bit of flirting eh ?

Only yerssot is allowed to flirt around here....watch out! Don't step in his territory.

I think the basic principle in the arab nations refusal(as mentioned before) is that it DOES go against their religion. The basics of the Muslim religion is that they are not allowed to live in certain ways. Women aren't ALLOWED to be equal. It's wrong to abuse a woman, but maybe not wrong to beat her for a perceived injustice or wrong doing. It isn't that they don't want to be free, they just want to be religious. And as the Muslim religion doesn't really allow for that, they never really will be. But, like most ideals, there are two points of view. And two sides to the argument.

Conversely, it is wrong for us (as Americans) to believe that there is room(resources) for too many democracies on this planet. Democracies are a drain on the natural resources of this planet. When freedom is allowed to translate in to glut, then you become a top heavy society that sucks up more than it's fair share. But, that's when the "our way or no way" mentality becomes a factor. Australia is a democracy, but they aren't viewed as gluttonous pigs that suck up everything they *want*. America has gotten to the point of supreme arrogance in the world. If we *want* something, we will get it. And, if the rest of the world has a problem with that...then we'll blow them up. Look at Hiroshima. It was wrong to use such a weapon...but it was also the only way. I think that one instance was when we realized that we could have what we wanted without worrying about the consequences...and in the process, we've pissed a lot of countries off.

When you get right down to it, democracy isn't really a proven form of government in the modern world. Sure it works for right now...but too many opinions usually result in a quagmire of stale ideas. We've only been here for a couple of hundred years. A drop in the bucket when it comes to history. (I understand that America didn't "invent" democracy) I also understand that for any civilization to work, there needs to be an absolute ruler that is answerable to the people. The president in this democracy(in reference to the office, not an individual) is neutered by a congress that is answerable to the people. This allows for things like lobbyists and special interest groups BUYING laws. There is no interest in the common good. Only in the dollar.

And the whole two party system only serves to divide a country and add to the stagnate nature of the modern political system in this country today. Like Hitler said, "The bigger the lie, the more people will believe it"

So,do away with the politicians and evolve with society in mind, rather than who has the biggest bank account.

what WD said and you have to handle a 30 year old trying his luck with a 14 year old once in a while

Bravo exactly what i was going to say thats scary