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I was reading somewhere a while back(may have been here) that way back in 1980 when they were filming Empire they didn't want peolple to know the twist so they had Vader say " No...Obi-wan killed your father" instead of "i am your father". The tabloids had a frennzy even putting on the front pages, " Obi wan Kenobi villianin star wars sequel"
So I'm wondering if anything that we have been fed thusfar is just meant to throw us off. My guess would be the way Padme dies. Any thoughts

I hope note or I will go into a fat kid frenzy!!

Gl does plant misinformation with every movie, but nowadays it is in the more subtle things. There were many small "lies" given during TPM's and AOTC's production, and it was obvious that it was done on purpose, but it's a good thing. The small surprises really add excitement to the movies when you see them for the first time.

I would not put my full faith in everything you hear, especially when they say no to certain things (of course, you can also use common sense). For example, I do not trust people like Pablo implicitly. When Ep.3 arrives, it will show that not only were there unforseen changes that will nullify what they say, but also that what they say was sometimes obviously meant to trick us.

Keep in mind though, that this trickery is not malicious, but rather a good and helpful movie-going aid.

Most definatley agree surgent and cowboyography i nearly wet myself over that pic!!

Good point Surgent. And yeah, good pic cowboyography! lol

I love that wild retarded kid picture. I've actually seen that on the howard stern message board as well.

corn

CowboyOG,

Fat kids have no place here....

by the way.....dont trust GL, he always lies.....

Is that fat person stolen footage from ROTS? Young Jabba perhaps?

thought the line was "Obi Wan is your father"

no, it was "obiwan killed your father"

im not sure if lucas had it in his head that vader was luke's father when he wrote that line, or just changed his mind...but when you hear JEJ saying "i am your father", david prowse is actually saying "obiwan killed your father"

which still kinda holds true...from a certain point of view.

perhaps GL originally wanted to wait till ROTJ to let the cat out of the bag.
if so, im glad he changed his mind.

GL always says certain things to throw off people when he makes his movies so no one can no what he is doing.

Dont trust GL.....I am telling you.....

Lies, mistrust are his ways and that goes for Pablo too!!

the fat one clouds everything

I hope ajrocksteady is on to something here, because I don't like the idea of Padme dying in this film.

it makes me accept anakin turning completely to the darkside, without batting an eyelid....it casts him as the tortured tragic figure he should be in the original trilogy.....nothing else acheives this effect so convincingly....i almost understand why he is the way he is, and feel that it's not so odd for obi wan and yoda to suddenly forgive him in the blink of an eye in rotj.....for me it's essential.....

All that's required is that Anakin thinks she's dead.......

But she probably will die.

As for Ep. 3, Lucas may surprise us; some of Pablo's statements are vague and could mean different things. I hope so because every bit of info about Ep. 2 came out before the movie. So I'm not sure if he's hiding anything or not.....

i don't know, anything could happen....but if anakin actually killed padme HIMSELF......well, that would mess you up real bad.....you probably would become a self-loathing freak, rampaging through the universe, crushing anyone who crossed your path....i was wondering how this was all to be made believable, and when i first heard this rumour i thought it was genius....

but at this point, it IS still just a rumour.....so we'll see what happens....

I might have thought it was genius myself except for the contradiction with
Ep.6. That's why when I saw that Pablo said he didn't think there were any
contradictions with the old movies, I thought they might be up to something.

But now that I know parts of the old movies have altered in ways I hadn't expected, the pessimist in me thinks George might have erased any problems.

i've heard the leia scene in rotj (if that's what we're talking about) has been left intact.....then again, as i've stated elsewhere, if the padme plot point is to be a secret, then they wouldn't want to draw attention to it by altering these new dvd versions....which means the archival editions will come out in 2006 and we all will have been ripped off.....

anakin killing padme is still the only convincing reason i've heard for him to go that mental.....the logic of the whole saga hangs on it for me....unless of course, there is something even more cunning in store.....

I had the impression that these DVDs are the archival editions.......
Lucas has no intention of putting the originals back, from what I've seen.

Maybe I've just always liked the notion of Padme watching over Leia like Obi did for Luke. If she dies that would be the last straw for Anakin by that point in
the movie. But the Ewok village conversation makes no sense....

the last straw is what i'm talking about....i don't really buy anakin doing what he does without really being pushed beyond human comprehension (and having to blame yourself is a killer, and will make you act irrationally)......the ewok village conversation does make no sense, you are correct....the archival editions will be so far from the originals it will hurt....jabba will dance with jar jar while the rebo band play a britney spears tune the likes of which no one will ever want to remember......

your padme notion is as solid as anything i have to say, i know no more than anyone else, and am just guessing.....but anakin's behaviour is the most irrational, and the most in need of explanation.....the whole saga is supposed to rest on the logic of his character....

that ewok village scene really does make no sense though.....perhaps leia is fallible like all of us, and has fady, unreliable memories of her childhood....i'm so glad that it's lucas's problem and not mine to make sense of this....

Based on what I've heard from very reliable sources, the Leia scene is completely untouched in the ROTJ DVD.


cornponious

I'm hoping that anakin kills Padme. Only then to me it would seem that there is no hope for anakin to resist the dark side. And then it would make perfect since of why Vader is the baddest mother f***** in the galaxy. Even his own spouse could not tell him what to do. So I am all for the force choke on Padme. Or however she meets her demise.

yeah, i'm seeing his guilt and self loathing as the reason for his irrational behaviour, as well as the reason we're supposed to retain some kind of compassion for the character, to the point where we can understand yoda and obi wan's compassion in forgiving him his sins at the end of rotj....

That would be the most intense thing Lucas could do, I agree.
Leia can't have memories from the first minute of life, Force or not.
Kill Padme and edit the Ewok conversation and all will be well.....

Vader is in no way the baddest mother****er in the galaxy no2

I put my money on watto slapping a dark side anakin about in ep3

the leia thing needs explaining....changing the dialogue in rotj would do the job....but i'm also against changing the ot to fit in with what happens in the prequels....like i said, i'm glad i'm not lucas....

Old senile Lucas?
In that case, me too.
With the exception of the money, that is......

money leads to fear.....

Fear of the fanboys (& girls) who gave you all that money......

fanboys lead to anger.....

Anger at the fanboys who try tell you what to do with your movies......

movies lead to plotholes.....

Plotholes lead to fans who hate you....

fans who hate you lead to suffering....

Rocksteady is back! For clarification, I hope that some of the info that we have been fed on Ep. III is false just because i think GL would be smart not to let us know everything, as illustrated with Empire. The reason that i bring up the Padme thing is I guess because I don't like it. I just have a hard time believing that he will do it, therefore i hope that isn't how she dies. It may bring a finish to the Anakin/Vader character arc, but i think it would be more effective if say she dies while under the protection of Obi-Wan or the Jedi as a whole, which would explain more fully, his hatred for Obiwan and the Jedi. She probably will be killed by him, but I hope she doesn't. Her dying separate from anything Anakin does makes all the foreshadowing better(he hates change, can't let go, couldn't stop her from dying like he promised her he would learn to do, blames it on his master who holds him back or the jedi who hold him back even more, hatred towards them like his hatred towards the tusken's who he blamed for his mother's death, etc....) His anger causing Padme's death just doesn't reconcile his actions for me. So through the OT I'm supposed to be like: awwwwwwww, poor Darth! He didn't MEAN to kill her. He's really just a big sweety guy!" F that!
Comments?

One

I don't like her dying either. And like it or not, just by doing these films George has made Anakin/ Vader kind of sympathetic. In a tragic sort of way.

When did he do that? In EP3 I hope. I didn't think he was sympathetic at all in AOTC.

He's making Vader a tragic figure: a slave in Ep.1, unable to save his mother in Ep. 2, possibly being responsible for Padme's death in Ep. 3.........

Darth Vader is still a great villian, but not quite the mysterious masked monster that he was before the PT.

Oh but see Cain I think he WILL be a monster by the END of EP3.

Well, yeah, there.....

I was thinking of the OT and the saga as a whole. He will become a monster but that monster won't be as mysterious when rewatching the OT.

You forgot the "complete and utter complaining prick" in Ep2. He's sad alright, but in no way sympathetic.

up until the 80's people didn't feel the need to make their characters cut n dried, perfectly good, or completely evil.....a nasty character didn't have to be either redeemed or punished by the end of the film.....this is the trend these days....people are treated like idiots who can't handle any ambiguousness at all....like we'll all become serial killers if we see something we have to think about that isn't spoon fed according to the hollyood rule book....a film like taxi driver will, in all likelihood, never be made again....

so if this is what lucas is in some part doing, i feel my respect for him returning.....he started as a director in the 70's, his peers are coppolla, scorsese etc.....the greedo shoots first thing made me think he had lost that part of him, and was totally playing by the new hollywood rule book....but maybe, just maybe he still has a little of it left in him....

if he does, then hats off, because it would make him a very lonely figure in the current landscape.....

anyway, with that off my chest, queeq, maybe empathetic is a better word than sympathetic?.....just to understand what he might be thinking and feeling, without necessarily condoning or identifying with....i know i get a lot more out of the character now when i watch the ot....before he was more like puss in boots....a pantomime character.....now, it's more like watching johnny boy in mean streets (bad example, best i can come up with at the moment).....but i'm rivetted in disbelief and dread the same way.....

Maybe NOT sympathetic, then. Just tragic in that he made the bad choices.

Know we know where Luke got his whining tendencies from....

from me?....

Guess you're a bad influence.....

Problem is, we don't get much with anakin, not like we did with Luke.

luke is a good boy but impatient....anakin is a spoilt arrogant brat....he's got more of the tough guy machismo thing going on....but i think we get our fair share of whining as well....

But not of sympathy.

mmmm....the way it works for me, as i said before, is the feeling i get watching johnny in mean streets....maybe ed norton in rounders.....you just want them to not do what they're about to do with every fibre of your being, it hooks me in every time....ben kingsley in sexy beast is a little too unsympathetic to be mentioned here, but that's kind of the effect i'm talking about....and it's a very 70's cinema mindset, as stated in my previous ludicrously overlong post.....

a lot of people made the observation when ep I came out, that for all these little kids anakin is their hero, what kind of effect is it going to have on them when they see what happens later?....scarred for life....but if he kills padme by accident, i will feel more in understanding with his character....you already feel a little sorry for him in those shots of him in the shackles yeah?.....

I meant Vader is kind of a tragic figure in the OT, more so than before.
Maybe sympathetic wasn't the right word. Keep in mind that he's whiny because Palpatine has been telling him the Jedi are holding him back.
In that area, GL hasn't explained everything. To me, its implied that Palpatine has been playing on his vulnerabilities for quite a while, even though its not said outright.

It's not only explanations we need. I felt great sympathy for Vader in ROTJ, basically from the moment the Emperor arrives on the scene. I miss all of that in AOTC.

Vader's sympathetic? I'd say tragic....
And I thought you didn't want explanations?

the prequel trilogies main purpose is to enhance our perceptions of the original trilogy....the sympathy you don't feel in aotc is transferred to the ot.....

maybe empathy is a better word than sympathy?....

VAder empathetic? When is that? Anakin empathetic? With whom, himself? Yes indeed, not much with anyone else.

And yes, I felt Vader both tragic as well as sympathetic. Someone turning at the end of his life and asking to see his sonmwith his own eyes. I mean, yes, that moment (as well as JW's music) made him both tragic and sympathetic. Actually I felt that was already happening on that bridge on Endor when Luke and Vader talk eye to eye. You feel Vader's good side kicking in, but the Dark SIde is still stronger.

yeah, i get the same vibe on the bridge on endor, and in the lift.....even as a kid i found it weird that vader was almost seeming human to me for the first time, it stood out.....someone else (think it was PVS) was saying that he might start to soften as early as the end of ep IV, and there could be some truth in this....

i think the sympathy will start when he wakes up in the suit at the end of ep III and continue through the original trilogy.....before that my sympathy lies with kenobi for having to put up with the little f****r.....

Amen

Wasn't it "OB1 is your father"? The temp line Prowse used.

No!

Oh... sorry.... 't Was something like that.

It was something else about it being Luke's destiny to join him

maybe prowse said it to try and make mark hamill laugh or something, like a gag to see if he would break character, that makes alot more sense to me

well, the point was that to keep the big twist secret no one knew what it was, up to the point where the actors where given phony lines to say during shooting.....

the only problem i have with what you're saying fardawg is that it would have to be something that would make luke react the way he does....it's a pretty extreme reaction for "c'mon, you know you want to".....

bump (sinking stupid threads)

Only Mark Hamill knew the real line.