Does God Matter?

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Storm
Questioning the Importance of God

The question of whether or not some sort of god exists is not one which should necessarily occupy the minds of atheists all of the time. Theists - especially Christians - regularly challenge us with arguments and ideas which supposedly demonstrate that their god definitely exists. But prior to that, there is an even more important issue to address: is a god really important in our lives?

Fiery Eyes
Yes!! why would he not be?

Linkalicious
No...

and the question is....how is he?

I don't believe in God and I'm more successful than most people my age. I have a great job, a great education, a goregeous girlfriend...and dreams of a loving family.

God didn't give me those things, I went out and grabbed them myself.

The Omega
Who?

WindDancer
Interesting topic about God matters. I find it intriguing that Atheist discuss so much about God. They reject God, that's fine. To say that God doesn't exists is quite a declaration. I been trying to stay on the philosophical area of God. But ppl keep saying God doesn't exist.......how? and where did they came to that conclusion? then again, how did other ppl came to the conclusion of God's existence.

Linkalicious
there you go WD.

Answer the 2nd question...and I'll gladly spend the remainder of my life in search of an answer to the first question...

WindDancer
So far Philosophical works have make me ponder the question of God's existence. What I'm more interested in is what cause and atheist to be an atheist? Or where you born as an atheist?

Storm
Most atheists don't believe because they see no good, rational reasons for believing. Atheists generally think one should have good reasons based on evidence for believing something. Since religious beliefs do not fit this criteria (as far as we can tell), they do not believe.

BackFire
Is God important?

-To some people: Yes

-To others: No

Evy_O
Of course God matters!

Well, not to everyone, but at least to a huge amount of people. Theists mostly believe in some kind of higher existance cause they need to feel secure, they need to feel that they are not alone out here, that something greater than them exists and will protect them. So they keep finding strength to live smile

and especially elders, knowing that life will soon be over, believe strongly in God cause they know the end is probably near.

Lastly, many religions define morals and preach about peace, love, compassion, making us better people big grin

I myself am not religious, but many people do NEED a God to believe in.

Linkalicious
the weak rely on God for strength, because they lack the courage to find the strength within themselves.

Fire
I agree with BF on this smile

WindDancer
I guess MLK and Ghandi were very weak men with no strenght and courage.

Storm
For hundreds of years, Christian apologists have argued that without a belief in a god, basic social structures would disintegrate and people would no longer find reason to act morally.

The question is whether or not belief in any god or higher power is required for morality and social stability.

An examination of history makes it evident that believers in gods can be very violent, especially when it comes to other groups of believers who follow different gods.

Another interesting fact to point out is that the claim doesn' t actually require any god to really exist. If social stability and morality are only achieved with believing in a god, even a false god, then the theist is claiming that human societies require massive deceit in order to survive. Moreover, the theist is arguing that a society doesn' t actually need their god, since any god will apparently do.

A more fundamental objection, however, is the implicit portrayal of humanity which such a claim makes. The unspoken reason why humans need some god to be moral is that they are not capable of creating their own social rules and, hence, require an eternal rule-giver with accompanying eternal rewards and eternal punishments.

How can a theist possibly claim this when even chimpanzees and other primates are clearly capable of creating social rules? The theist is attempting to create ignorant children out of all of us. In their eyes, we are apparently incapable of running our own affairs; worse yet, only the promise of eternal reward and the threat of eternal punishment will keep us in line. Perhaps this is actually true of them, and that would be unfortunate.

Linkalicious
true...they looked to God for strength.

But these two gentlemen found strength within themselves. They believed in their cause, and fought for it. They didn't ask God why things couldn't be different. They made things different themselves...

Evy_O
yeah but, Storm, as you can see, humans are one of the very few beings on this planet that kill each other; chimpazees, for example, don't, that's why men need defined morals

as for some turning violent, I agree, but I'm sure the people that are becoming better persons through religion, are more than the ones that are influenced in a bad way messed



I completely disagree! it's not a matter of weakness, to me it has to do with intelligence, environment, insecurities and yes, weakness too, but you CAN'T generalize like that

WindDancer
Exactly!

Linkalicious
are you for real?

and WD....you're even worst for agreeing...


how can you completely disagree with me, if you agree that weakness is part of it??? confused

perhaps you, "sorta" disagree...but you can't totally disagree. Unless contradiciting yourself in an arguement is is a good thing.


Besides....

If knowledge is power, then lack of intelligence is a sign of weakness.

Insecurity? A sign of weakness.

Environment? You'll have to further explain yourself, but I'm pretty sure what you mean.


I made a generalized statement, because specifiying all the small parts, STILL gets me to the whole.

Fiery Eyes
The weak rely on God, ohhh come on. It takes a much bigger person, more courage, more boldness to have Faith in God, then to just say, he doesn't exist.

BackFire
No it doesn't?

Linkalicious
care to explain your logic in making such a statement?

Evy_O
Link:

I completely disagree with the sentence, stating that "if someone believes in God, then they neccasserily are weak"

you were very absolute on the matter, and it's that part I completely disagreed on... but that's NOT the point

lack of intelligence is not lack of knowledge, and I assure you even people who are not very smart, can have more strong personalities than smart ones

I'll give you an example- most geniouses (i.e. artists) had serious psychological problems and commited suicide
on the contrary, there are people with low IQ that are happy and willing to fight and be strong in difficulties happy

insecurity is not weakness cause we all have insecurities; would that make us all weak? just that every person "comforts" themselves in a different way

environment- that's pretty obvious. The way you grow up defines your beliefs in a great extent.

(Excuse my english, I tried my best to express my views, but I think sometimes I might have not made sense messed)

Fiery Eyes
Well, it takes a much stronger person to be in a room full of NON believers in Christ and yet take the stand as a christian, then to just jump on in and go w/the flow of things cuz everyone else is doing it. it takes Boldness, courage, strength.

WindDancer
Thanks, I'll keep that in mind next time you agree with me.

Linkalicious
sweetie, you're misquoting me in order to create an arguement...nono

I didn't say that "if someone believes in God, then they neccasserily are weak"

I said that "people rely on God for strength, because they lack the courage to find strength within themselves"

Those my dear, are COMPLETELY different in meaning, thus, THAT is the reason why I said that your cannot "completely disagree" with me.

Especially when your reasoning for disagreeing with me involves
"it's not a matter of weakness, to me it has to do with intelligence, environment, insecurities and yes, weakness too, but you CAN'T generalize like that."

I agree with you on my statement of knowledge vs. intelligence, and I didn't really want to make THAT point, so I'll make this one.

The reason why human beings are the at the top of the food chain is not because they are the strongest or the fastest creatures on Earth. They are on the top of the food chain because they are the smartest creatures on this Earth. In this sense....lack of intelligence, directly relates to lack of strength. (not by a physical means)

Insecurities most definitly ARE weaknesses. They happen to be one of our greatest weaknesses. Just because everyone has them, doesn't mean that they are not weaknesses. Some can deal with their insecurites better than others, and those people are the strongest members of our socieities.

"environment- that's pretty obvious. The way you grow up defines your beliefs in a great extent."

which is precisely why I have something against organized religion. the VAST MAJORITY of religious believers are not believers because they freely chose their religion when they were at an age where they were capable of such an important decision. Instead they get dragged to church by their parents, pick up their religion, and beliefs.....NO QUESTIONS ASKED.

bardock
yeah i think god matters

Evy_O
doh... I most certainly am not trying to create an argument! I don't like them, where did THAT come from now roll eyes (sarcastic)

I didn't misquote you, I just re-expressed it the way I percieved it myself. Now, if what I understood is not what you said, then you can simply say so, rather than stating that I'm deliberately misquoting you...



I agree until the part where you say "They are on the top of the food chain because they are the smartest creatures on this Earth" ... after that, I make no sense. As I said, lack intelligence is most certainly not lack of strength! Strength (the non-physical one) is wether you are capable of coping with life when it gets tuff... and many non-smart people can, whilst other clever ones can't



we're more or less saying the same thing here, only I said that having insecurities (or, weaknesses, if you prefer) doesn't make you WEAK. That was the original point. So it's another thing fearing death, and another being weak as in not being decisive and a strong character



yeah...agreed...but that's not the topic, is it? no matter if they are forced on a specific religion, the said religion comes to be important for them in the end
we're not discussing wether that's good or not, but if it DOES matter for them

Morningstar
happy my view 2

Fiery Eyes
Thanks morning star.

Darth Revan
Well, it takes a much stronger person to be in a room full of BELIEVERS in Christ and yet take the stand as a non-Christian, than to just jump on in and go with the flow of things 'cos everyone else is doing it. It takes boldness, courage, and strength.

The point I'm trying to make is that your statement is not always true. You act as if Christians are persecuted by everybody, which is absolutely untrue. People of other religions/atheists get just as much shit from Christians. I grew up around Christians, and guess what... I didn't jump on in and go with the flow of things 'cos everyone else was doing it! eek!

vaya_the_elf
first off every religion/ atheist give each other a hard time.. but thats because we are human and we are going to make mistakes.. then there are those ppl who just plain mean.. like my aunt .. she is christian but she does not act like it at all...so you will just have those kind of ppl everywhere .. and not everyone else is becoming christian.. just because you go to church does not make you christian ... its what you belive that makes you christian ... and how you act.. that matters
Actually I find more atheist than anything .. and a lot of my friends are atheist.. so it depends on who you know and where you live

And back to the topic .. I think god does matter .. because it changes the way you think and live

Fiery Eyes
it can happen the same way, but you were there at church it sounded like, right? or wrong? How often is there, other than church, more christians in one place than non believers?? School, work, most places there is more nonbelievers than there is christians. Yes it does take courage, strength, to take that stand, YOU have to know WHO you are, that you are a CHILD of the living God and take that stand w/boldness.

finti
to me No god does not matter at all, thus no importance either

Morningstar
very true. Just the words i wanted but couldnt find stick out tongue

finti
it aint about courage it is about choice. We aint living in the dark ages

Fiery Eyes
When you're the ONLY ONE thats a christain, it does take courage and strength, boldness and faith to take the stand alone!!

Darth Revan
I've been in PLENTY of places where there were (or at least seemed to be) more Christians than people of other belief systems. The Christian kids always seem to stand out in my life, and furthermore, are nearly always holier-than-thou assholes. So having a lot of Buddhist beliefs, I find it takes a lot of strength not to just jump on the bandwagon with the rest of them. Just as much as it does for you the other way around.

finti
why? I took had the opposite stand in Arkansas and there I was outnumbered big time by chrisitians, dont consider my stand to be brave nor bold though. As I said it aint the dark ages where you more or less was forced into one way of believing. Its a free world and if christians feel themself to be brave to take a chrisitan stand were they might be alone with that view then they are paranoid

Fiery Eyes
Becuz most Christains are ridiclued made fun of.

Fire
In belgium Christians aren' ridiculed, surely the younger generations can't really relate to christianity anymore but as long as ppl don't believe in a zealous way noone is being ridiculed here.

Fiery Eyes
well...its kinda like all the kids planning a party (w/alcohol and so forth), well being a christian, you shldn't go, but most christian kids feel the pressure to fit in, they either go to fit in or take the stand. Yes, i know all kids are pressured like that, but whats the reason you're not doing it? when you're a christian, you're looked down on alot more.

Storm
I' ve always respected and always will respect the people who hold beliefs different from my own.

finti
probably cause many chrisitans are so damned conservative.
and why cant christian kids drink alcohol?

Fiery Eyes
You are joking me, right????????? For one thing being a christian or NOT a KID shldn't drink alcohol. wink

Fire
why would you not go to a party where they serve alcohol if you're a christian?

Fiery Eyes
We were talking about KIDS. I wouldn't go, cuz i dont drink and don't want to be around a bunch of drunks.

finti
diffrent countries have different laws about alcohol, but lets clear things up. What age group do we talk about here

Fiery Eyes
any kid thats has not graduated.

finti
well in Norway the leagal age to buy alcohol is 18 we started with drinking at the age of 13 so it is in the eyes of who looks at it.

Fiery Eyes
you would want your kids to drink at that age?

Fire
A) not all ppl who drink are drunks, that a serious generalization.

I drink everytime I go out with my mates and I'm almost never drunk (maybe 3 times in 4 years and a wild stab would be I go out atleast 40 times a year so 3 out a 160 times isn't a lot. and I never get seriously drunk)

B) It is legal in Belgium to drink beer from the age of 16, a lot of children do it and it has not been proven that it increases child-alcoholabuse. I've been drinking beer since I was 16, I don't consider myself a drunk. My children will be allowed to drink at the age of 15 (excluding any spirits or heavy liquor, for which they won't have the money anywayz)

Storm
Uh oh, I' d like to see them drinking the earliest at the age of 16 and only with moderation.

Fire
trust me they'll drink at 16 with moderation. I don't think anyone likes his or her first beer. (that's why you have to say they can't drink Spirits for starters big grin)

Linkalicious
3 times in 4 years???

woah!!! eek!

i was sh!t faced like 3 times last week. embarrasment

Fire
good going link

finti
depends on the situation, I could let them have a glass of wine/beer in certain situation

ehh I actually liked beer the first time I tasted it wasnt an old chap that time, and 16 years old cant moderate their drinking unless they are supervised. We drank to get shitfaced, and whenever I go out now I still drink to get shitfaced. With the price rate we have on alcoholic beverages here in Norway we better get our moneys worth.

But back to topic, actually didnt jesus make wine out of water as his first miracle so whats all the fuss about.

Linkalicious
4 day weekend. big grin

Fire
I've moderated my drinking at 16. proves 16 year olds can do it, there are however enough 16 year olds who can't

finti
love the first night after sobering up when those weekend occure, kind of feel likes you sleep floating 3 feet above the bed and a red eye grim reaper hovering over you

Fiery Eyes
We were talking about kids drinking, NOT supervised either. So, if they asked you if they could you would let them attend the party?
The topic was: it taking courage to say, no, take the stand as a christian.

Rico31
Religion has caused many wars but also i believe it controls the masses. If there were no religions then i believe many people would have no problem with taking another persons life as they would be under the belief that there's no hell so what does it matter what I do in life

finti
yes I would let them attend the party, been in that situation myself and not everyone drank. Some just didnt want to others didnt dare and that was fine by us we never pressured anyone teased them a bit ,but always kept it clear that if they chose to drink it was their choice and shouldnt be because of us.
And they took the stand to not to drink and it had nothing to do with chrisitianity. And no I dont see it as courage to take a chrisitian stand I see itas a choice nothing more

Silver Stardust
About the drinking at a party thing...that's called peer pressure, and not everyone gives into it, and what exactly does religion have to do with giving into peer pressure anyway? I'm not Christian, and I've been at parties where people have been drinking, and somehow I managed to not drink...

Being as I don't believe in God...no, I don't really think that God matters. Maybe to some people, but not to me.

Fiery Eyes
You need to read the other post, to understand. It really doesn't haave anything to do with it.

Samurai Guy
This is a very biased thread.

Fiery Eyes
meaning what Samurai?

Samurai Guy
God will matter to those who accept Gods existance, and to those who dont not of course God will not.

Fiery Eyes
thats what the discussion is about lol

Silver Stardust
Exactly. I don't believe in God, therefore God doesn't matter to me. But I recognize that other people DO believe that God exists and matters to them.

Fiery Eyes
Without God, what is the purpose to life, I don't get that. He is everything to me in Life. He's someone to wake up and give thanks for the air I breath, for being alive, for saving my soul, for his Grace & Mercy, for Loving me, teaching me His ways, always being there... He is the Purpose to Life.

finti
obviously it aint the only thing you dont get

Storm
It can be argued that even if a god did exist, that existence would not provide either meaning or purpose to a person's life.

Quite a few religions in human history have asserted the existence of a creator-god, yet none of them have managed to find much agreement as to what such a creator-god might want from us humans. Even within religions, there is tremendous diversity of opinion as to the desires of the god being worshipped. It seems that if such a god did exist, it probably wouldn' t have done such a poor job as to allow this confusion.

If some sort of creator-god exists, it is highly unlikely that we'll be able to figure out what it wants of us, if anything at all. The scenario which seems to play out is that people project their own hopes and fears onto whatever god they worship. People who fear and hate modernity project that onto their god and, as a result, find a god which wants them to continue in their fear and hatred. Others are open to change and willing to love others regardless of differences, and thus find in a god which is tolerant of change and variation, and wants them to continue as they are.

Although the latter group is more pleasant to spend time with, their position is not actually any better founded than the former. There is no more reason to think that there is a benevolent and loving creator-god than that there is instead a mean-spirited and fearful creator-god. And, in either case, what that god might want from us - if discoverable - cannot automatically give us purpose in our lives.

Meaning and purpose at their heart require valuation, and valuation must begin with the individual. For this reason, they must exist first and foremost in the individual. Others outside of us (including gods) may suggest possible paths for us where meaning and purpose could perhaps develop, but ultimately that will depend upon us.

Fiery Eyes
it may not provide meaning or purpose to you, or whoever is arguing, but he does create meaning and purpose to who ever will let him.

Morningstar
so finti, do u just believe that everything is how it is, simply becoz that is how it is?

finti
pretty much so

Arachnoidfreak
I don't see anything wrong with that.

WhiteEagle
Me either.

Placebo_fan
I have this thought and maybe this is the thread to speak on it:
Is there such thing as someone not beleiving in religion, and ifthere are more of them, wouldnt that be sort of a religion? I think it just contradicts itself, because it's almost as if youre saying that there is a religion for people that dont belive in religion. Weird isnt it?

WhiteEagle
Not really Placebo fan. I've thought about the same thing myself. I suppose the name you would group those people under would be atheists. Being an atheist is a very general bracket to put anyone into. All it means is a disbelief of a god. Not really anything like a religion because there is no organisation and no rules or guidelines for members to follow. It's really more of a very basic philosophy rather than a religion, because two atheists can have very differing outlooks on everything else regarding life.

Placebo_fan
Oh, thanks for clearing that up for me. WhiteEagle is a nice name. It was just a thought. I'm agnostic, I'm not sure whether any god exists or not. Certain things intrigue me, certain others put me off.

Storm
Atheism is a disbelief, not a philosophy. One' s disbelief in the Tooth Fairy is not a philosophy of life - is it for anyone else? Furthermore, a philosophy of life is not necessarily a religion and it doesn't necessitate that a religious belief exists in the person with the philosophy.


Perhaps it would help to examine what a religion is. The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, in its article on Religion, lists some characteristics of religions. The more markers that are present in a belief system, the more "religious like" it is. Because it allows for broader grey areas in the concept of religion, I prefer this over more simplistic definitions we can find in basic dictionaries. Read the list and see how atheism fares :

Belief in supernatural beings (gods).
A distinction between sacred and profane objects.
Ritual acts focused on sacred objects.
A moral code believed to be sanctioned by the gods.
Characteristically religious feelings (awe, sense of mystery, sense of guilt, adoration), which tend to be aroused in the presence of sacred objects and during the practice of ritual, and which are connected in idea with the gods.
Prayer and other forms of communication with gods.
A world view, or a general picture of the world as a whole and the place of the individual therein. This picture contains some specification of an over-all purpose or point of the world and an indication of how the individual fits into it.
A more or less total organization of one's life based on the world view.
A social group bound together by the above.

Morningstar
roll eyes (sarcastic) i refuse to comment on that wink

Arachnoidfreak
Good for you.

Fiery Eyes
smile true.

WhiteEagle
I hardly think disbelief in the tooth fairy and the alleged creator of mankind and the universe around us are fair grounds for comparison. Part of a philosophy is the critical analysis of fundamental assumptions or beliefs. Thus I would still say that a disbelief in an omnipotent being is a philosophical statement. I don't mean to say that atheism is an entire philosophy in itself, rather it is just a foundation belief regarding the universe that can branch into many different directions. Of course a philosophy of life is not one idea alone, but many.

And I completely agree with you that a philosophy doesn't necessitate a religious belief. I'm a living proof of that. wink

finti
care to elaborate

WhiteEagle
Sure, basically I have a life philosophy that does not include any religious beliefs.

finti
ahh no juciy stuff then

WhiteEagle
Heh, afraid not. Although I could make some random, outrageous statements and generalisations for you to pick at if you'd like. laughing

finti
or religious ones as they also are called evil face

WhiteEagle
laughing out loud Nice! laughing out loud

Alpha Centauri
Nice....all the way to the bank.

-AC

Raston
Hmmmmm'ze! im de dinking. I dontz thinz boutz gode so muzz i jutz goez onez witz my livez. Myz gooatse like de cheeeeze

WhiteEagle
Your god is goatse? laughing

Papaumau
If God exists then he/she/it would matter but as he/she/it doesn't then:

NOPE !

He/she/it doesn't matter !

Paxelius
On the Importance of God:

Ask Bush !

ETK
God is important to those who ask for him by name. That is a choice made my each person.

As for the whole of society and culture, yes God is important. We would not be where we are today if everyone believed in nothing. God has guided many people to do wonderful things.

*by God I refer to a higher being that people have worshipped over the countless centuries.*

finti
first of all we dont know where we would be if everyone believed in nothing, many people have done horrible things too in the name of god

HiddenPotential
I would say Gods important because you and I are a product of a belief in God throughout history.

Whether you like it or not, Just the belief in god has shaped history and the world into what it is today.

vaya_the_elf
God is important because rather you believe god, or not makes a big difference on your life.

Nazgulinthedark
yes

Mandos
Wait...someone should address the issue:

Are MULTIPLE Gods/Goddesses important in our lives?

shaber
It could matter conceivably, but in 20 years it will be a compulsory sort of thing yes

Ytaker
Many were born into the faith, some were impressed by the forgiveness idea, and many sought and found that God did exist.

Turbo-Cajun
If one god does not matter, five gods do not matter.

Imperial_Samura
It depends upon a persons beliefs, I would say that the concepts that are often associated with "God" or "Gods" are probably more important then the actual deity (if there is one.) Any body that advocates love, understanding and so forth is important (of course I realise there many who would say that is debatable)

Ytaker
If those five are real, then they would matter. You want to go to Tartarus?

Turbo-Cajun
Okay, since god does not exist it doesn't matter if there are one god or five gods... there.

Ytaker
Just because one doesn't, five different ones don't have to not exist.

Turbo-Cajun
If you deny the existence of the any supernatural force, god, diety, etc. as a rule (not exactly my personal stance), then yes... if you have one god or five gods in your religion, all of them are equally made up.

Ytaker
I understand your point... But just because you don't believe in a God, it doesn't mean they know that. Or that they don't believe in you. Amusing lttle idea.

Turbo-Cajun
Who is they? are you talking about god here or the god's followers?

Ytaker
The God. They could affect you if they existed. Your belief on that matter would not alter any retaliation.

Turbo-Cajun
If they existed yes, but well, do you think that you could be affected day to day by the God of Hinduism? no, you probably don't think they it affects you because you do see him working in your life. The gods of Hinduism could exist, and could affect your life... however the question in the title of the thread is "Does God Matter?" If you do not beleive in him, then no he does not matter.

Line
the world as it is today is shaped by many different religions, not just christianity. the greek mythology for one thing has played a huge role in the shaping of arts, culture, language, etc. still, this doesn't mean we believe in the greek gods.

SexyJacobSmith
hey ppl

Reborn Again
God is merely a figure manifested as a result of faith in a higher being, and also the result of monothesim: the belief in a single god; unlike in our ancient histories where polythesim: the belief in more than one god, was in play.

Imperial_Samura
I am not sure if the early peoples beliefs, like in the Egyptian Pantheon or the Greek one could be considered play, it was deadly serious to them, on many levels, including the first attempts to explain and understand the world.

Fiery Eyes
He doesn't? Do you have proof that he doesn't?

I can give you my proof, by examples after examples that God does exist, cuz i have many times on here, but so far no one cares about the examples i've given becuz they have NEVER seen it for theirself.

naybean
You think people on here would convert or suddenly change their ways of thinking because of an experience they did not see? This is why everyone has probably not taken much interest- everyone has to see for themselves

Back to the topic though - as long as you live a life as moral as the next man why would God care if you believe in him or not? What I'm saying is as long as you live a life as moral as the next man, God doesnt matter because if he does exist he's not gonna send you to hell for being a relatively good person. Just my opinion...

Fiery Eyes
The bible tells you to confess your sins:
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
John 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.


Rom 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
Rom 14:12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

naybean
So you're telling me that if say we have an atheist who sinned less than a Christian and felt bad about what he had done, he would get sent to hell and the Christian would be sent to heaven just because the Christian had confessed his sins? sorry but I find it hard to believe that if there was a God he would be that self righteous as to punnish everyone who did not worship him.

Fiery Eyes
I Never said that, and have no idea where you got that from. How can anyone sin less and still go to heaven? I don't get that, IF you sin you sin. If you steal something you are a theif, if you lie, you are a liar, if you sin you are a sinner. There is no loop hole there. So, you misunderstood something there, i think. It is a daily walk w/God, You need to get to know him, talk w/him, read the Bible, pray, the more you do this the stronger christain you will become and you will mature in God. No one is perfect, we all fall short of the Glory of God, but we must repent. God will convict us of our sins and we repent, but if you fail to repent, then you are a sinner.

WhiteEagle
To all Christians...

Who has a best chance of reaching heaven? A mediocre christian who hardly sins and confesses their sins to god genuinly repenting). Or an atheist who never sins (by christian definition) and constantly does well to his/her fellow man all through his/her life?

If you say the christian, then god is a vein and cruel being.

If you say the atheist, that would make christianity superfluous to salvation.

If you say both are equal you contradict your beliefs, but you may find that is the smartest thing to do.

Turbo-Cajun
Both... assuming there is a heaven. Otherwise I think they both end up worm food. Or something else... maybe some kind of spiritual existence not based in christianity.

But, I'm not a Christian so I guess you weren't talking to me.

Imperial_Samura
A tough one, although by the Christian religion there is no body any where who has never sinned, hence there could be no atheists who never sinned, always at least they would be the "hardly sinned".

Fiery Eyes
There is not anyone that will never sin, an an atheist is sinning by not acknowleging God.

Cipher
No offense, but I don't remember seeing anything that said not believing is "sinning". Keep in mind that you think its a sin........

Fiery Eyes
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.

Cipher
Like I said, its a bad thing if you think it is. If you don't, then its not.

Imperial_Samura
I don't think that, I was merely saying, that in terms of the question "Who has a best chance of reaching heaven?", that, as a question that is saying, ok, if there is a God, who would he favour, a Christian who has sinned a bit, or an atheist who never has, well, in Christianity, it is apparently impossible for a mortal to go through life without ever sinning (unless you count Jesus), thus, there is no way the question could be answered as such, as it is apparently impossible for that atheist to have claimed to have never sinned. However, I am not saying that lack of belief is a sin.

Fiery Eyes
and like I said: There is not anyone that will never sin, an an atheist is sinning by not acknowleging God.

Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.

WhiteEagle
I thought that word might cause some problems. I was going to say 'hardly' but I wanted to emphasise that the person had ALMOST never sinned. My bad. But don't use that as an excuse to dodge the question.

*looks at Fiery Eyes*

Fiery Eyes
I didn't dodge the question, that is my answer, there is no answer to say, ok it's the christian or ok it's the athiest. You can't say that. I thk my answer was a good answer stick out tongue

Imperial_Samura
Hmmm, while my beliefs are not technically, fully Christian, and what I know of the teachings might be slightly biased, I think it is possible the Christian would probably get in, and the reasonably good atheist would miss out (well, there does seem to be rules). However I think that it would be quite certain God would not throw a good person to the wolves because they don't believe, so I will say both get in, or perhaps the atheist will go to one of these sub zones where they could earn salvation (limbo, purgatory, if they exist.) And sorry for being a pedantic sod.

WhiteEagle
That would be a great answer if I'd asked if it were possible for an atheist to sin.

There is an answer to the question I asked, be it right or wrong. And if you think there is no answer, then there must be a reason for it. So by all means, enlighten me.

WhiteEagle
That's a good answer. wink

Imperial_Samura
Thank you.

Cipher
Imperial Samura, I was responding to Fiery Eyes, no offense intended.

One person says something is bad because they believe it is. Another person doesn't agree because they don't think the same way, but they are bad.....

Just because someone thinks something is right doesn't make them correct.

finti
yet an atheist might sin less than a christian, but the chrisitan keeps beg forgivness all the time.
Hmmmmm makes your god a kind of hypocrite, doesnt admit one with few sins, but a repeating sinner is accepted cause he/she is soooooooooooooo sorry for what they did ........until the next time.

Maybe they should go by the three strike rule in heaven too.

Imperial_Samura
Hmmm, perhaps, although forgiveness is meant to be one those concepts that is limitless, eternal, and a large part of Christianity, that God cares enough to forgive, if the person is truly sorry and repents.

naybean
exactly - and also, atheists feel bad bout sins they've committed but just because they dont ask God for forgiveness Gods going to hold it agains them? You'd think he'd be more bothered bout whether or not they learn from their mistakes or not or whether they feel honestly bad bout what theyve done...

Ytaker

finti
goes the other way around as well, "unless you can prove it then you cannot say god does matter"

doesnt exist then

Turbo-Cajun
I already said that if they do exist, they are capable of affecting us. Same thing you said only 2 pages ago.



I did not say that because I don't believe they don't exist. You are misinterpreting my post and trying to put words in my mouth. Back to the hindu gods for one minute please.... and lets pretend that the hindu gods do exist, and that you are still christian or whatever religion you are. If you get a flat tire on your car while driving to a party where there will be drugs, alcohol and loose women, do you blame it on the nail that was in the road or do you believe that it was Shiva the Destroyer that caused the flat? You find that a small nail was the cause of the flat. This fact exists outside of the idea of god. It could have easily been an act of god that placed that nail there keeping you from intoxication and unholy sex, but if you don't believe in that god you have your own set of explainations to explain what happens in life, so Shiva doesn't really matter to you... it is the nail that matters to you. So, no I still beleive that you have to actually believe in a God before he matters to you. He is still capable affecting your life, but if you dont recognize him there are plenty of other explainations for why things happen.

I know that the flat tire and nail explaination isn't the best in the world, but I really don't feel like spending much more time explaining a relatively simple concept.

I dont know how it could be explained more clearly for you.

There is most definately a difference between mattering to someone and affecting someone. In order for god to really matter to you, you need to believe in him. Being affected by god requires no belief.

If you dont believe in god, he doesnt matter. If you do believe in god he does... Since I do not, then the answer for me is no, he does not matter. The answers can be different for everyone and that is acceptable. If you think he does matter that is fine, just be aware that god doesn't matter to everyone.

Ytaker
No, we can say "look at the past examples".

You have to prove that. Otherwise no one will accept it.

Ytaker
But then... There's hell. If you annoyed Shiva, then it will affect you. But back to the nail example. If you found a nail under your car wheel, then it would be natural to assume that it had just fallen there. But suppose it had been placed by your childhood enemy. Later they become the leader of the democrat party. Their influence matters to you, as their followers hiss when you come near, you go to protests against them and more. Their existance as the democrat leader matters to you, just as the idea of God existance matters. Little things pick up snow, as they roll down the mountain, and can crush people easily.

Ytaker
If there's a God, then they've affected the world a lot, and it matters a lot to people. The idea matters.

Fiery Eyes
I did answer you, but i'll try it again. If they both sinned, they both would go to hell, there's no in between. if you sin, you have sinned.

Fiery Eyes
It does NOT make my God a hypocrite. No one is perfect, thats why it's a daily walk, friendship, prayer, w/God. When a person thats a christian sins, you are convicted of that sin, right then is when you are to confess and ask forgiveness. YOU don't stay in sin and you DONT continuly repeat that same sin either. You are to learn from your mistakes. God also knows your intentions, if you really are sorry or if you're just saying it to try to cover yourself. He knows your heart.

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