Dark Lord...Gandalf?

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Morgoths_Wrath

Viper
I'd imagine he'd end up equal to Sauron

Discos
no chance, diudnt you read the books or listen to the movies.....NO ONE BUT THE DARK LORD CAN WIELD THIS RING.

Gandalf would have a ring which he couldnt use,

Agent Elrond
The Ring would have corrupted him like Sauron corrupted Sauroman

Darth Sauron
HE would have turned into some big scary cuddly grey bearded man.

Like your granfather perhaps...

Except your grandfather doesnt try to kill you.....hopefully.
And your grandad doest try to oppose me and foolishly use my evil ring, made out of evil gold for my evil finger, for good and then turn evil because he doesnt understand my ring is evil for my evil finger alone.

Then he would probably go all out of control and maybe kill me but hey, what ya gonna do?

Discos
yeah what chris said roll eyes (sarcastic)

but no one could use the ring, I even thought gandalf would of known that. Imagine if anyone could use the ring, Isildur would be imortal, Bilbo would of had a mansion and Gollum would own a fish trading company...

Darth Sauron
Yes....thats right.....

flamewielder
gandalf would have done the same thing that the elf in lorien would have done (dont remember her name)....he would have used it for good.....no one has said anything about it being used for good or evil....it was just made by an evil person and it just corrupted them from the taint that the Dark Lord :bows head: had on it.....so i think that gandalf would do something to put of the corruption because frodo put it off a really long time and gandalf is a lot more strong willed then frodo ....but thats just my opinion....and i dont even remember exactly if they said it had to be used for evil....but i didnt think so.....plz correct me if im wrong

Darth Sauron
I think the mroe powerful you are the more it has an effect on you

Frodo probably resisted so lonmg through reason 'if i let it use it, i wont stand a chance'

Sombody like gandalf would think 'hey, if i use this....i could be huge...'

Morgoths_Wrath
I know that other people were corrupted by the ring, but none were as powerful as Gandalf. I agree he would have been in the same boat as Saruman, but still. He would have been a force to be reconed with, and him weilding the ring may have sealed middle-earths fate!

ladygrim
sad it wud of been a bugger if he had taken the ring reallly

Smodden
If Gandalf had the ring...He would try to do good like he said, but it would be evil...He would disguise his actions with excuses like'it's best for the halflings'
He would soil the brandywine saying that because he made it so filthy the hobbits wouldn't go near it and drown themselves!
He would cut down the party tree, saying it's roots were causing erosion in to bagshot row...
He'd think he was doing good, but in reality he'd be doing evil...like Boromir, he only thought the best thing to do was to...give the ring to Gondor.

Darth Sauron
Yeah but he only wanted to save his city stick out tongue

Bar-en-Danwedh
i beleive Gandalf also says in the book at the counsel of Elrond that the power available to the wearer was subject to the wearers power and skills...

the average punter to put it on was only able to take advantage of its invisibility feature and even then it was without the ability to controll it...

Tom Bombadil was powerful enough to wear it without entering the void... and even then powerfull enough to see frodo invisible...

the ring could not be controlled as such by any man... because part of saurons will and spirit were in it... Wizards would have been a slightly deifferent case... they were far more powerful and would have had an infinatley wider set of uses for it. Gandalf or Saruman, WOULD have been able to use, but it would be their own will that they would have lost controll over... if Gandalf had taken the ring he would have had a whole new array of abilities at his disposal, and knowing the location of the three elven rings he would been able to control them, And already having one of those rings would have been an added bonus, he probably would have been able to control the ringwraiths, but as his will would be lost to sauron, nothing really woiuld change for the ringwraiths... i think Saruman would have had a better chance to control the nazgul, then gandalf because of his voice...

but in the end, Gandalf would have eventually brought the ring to sauron... who would reclaim it and make Gandalf his slave...

a high ranking one though...

Nazgulinthedark
rolling on floor laughing im quoting you, k?

Smodden
Yes very good point...I had forgotton about that....


That is most interesting...and I must say I never looked at it that way before...Nice bar.wink



I agree with you about saruman...his voice.
His special abbilities are enhanced because of the ring...
Now...what if legolas had the ring?? or Gimli? what powers would they have?

Nazgulinthedark
no old fogey can control me!

Smodden
I'm not an old fogey...so I can CONTROL YOU!
MUHAHAA

Bow before my feet nazy! or you could danceeek!


edit:
Nice sig btwwink
but don't tell my familyninja

Nazgulinthedark
*dances like a bannana* Happy Dance ahhhh!!!

YAY FOR LSU!!!

Mr. Bacon
shouldnt you be in school nazzy?

Mandos
I don't think Gandalf would have been as powerful as Sauron, altought he might of had the potential. The ring only obeys to Sauron, so in the end, no matter what happened if he had the ring, Sauron would have surely taken it back. Besides, Gandalf already wear one of the three most powerful elvish ring in history. I believe it's called Narya, but I'm not 100% sure. It's in the Silmarillon. smile

Darth Sauron
I think he would have been, remember, Gandalf is a maia, so is sauron.
Plus gandalf has the one ring on his finger, sauron doesnt, and this ring contains alot of saurons old big daddyness.

Gandalf would wipe the floor with sauron, then with saruman. Then become a kind of..emperorish person, and frodo could be darth halfling.

And a whole new saga would be born

Mr. Bacon
star wars meets lotr

Nazgulinthedark
no2 for some reason they gave us a 5 day weekend

Lord_Andres
If Gimli would have gotten the ring he would have turned into that lvl6 spell the Mountain king in warcraft3 has, AVATAR, but only saying FOR BALIN!!!!!!!!

Smodden
laughing

shaber
Gandalf the Grey would not have been able to use it. Gandalf the White may have been though.

Darth Sauron
Gandalf the grey could. Course he could yes

Bar-en-Danwedh
as the white... the only difference is he'd be able to acces the rings, bottle opener feature...

BlueHarvest
Since they are both Maiar I think Gandalf could have wielded The Ring is he choose to, but he would not have been able to keep it from turning him evil either before or after he defeated Sauron with it.

Nazgul lord
bingo, morgoths rath, if gandalf was evil why didnt he take the ring? 1. because he's not evil and 2. because as discos rightly pointed out only the dark lord can weild this ring!

Bar-en-Danwedh
read a little closer...

the power an individual has, it says, the of its abilities you could use...

like a really big sword...
it can only be used by a really big person... but a lesser man could pick it up off the ground and drop it on your foot...

gandalf and saruman would have been able to use it... but not to it's full potential ie. weilding....

to weild it would be to use it to it's full potential... and as sauron had put part of his 'soul' into it, no one but he would be able to fully control it...

but some could still use it...

anyone who went invisible was using it...

that was the weakest of its powers, so anyone could go invisible using it... but to controll the invisibility feature was another kettle of fish...

however tom bombadil was able to controll it... more so he could see through its ability...

so gandalfwould have very much been able to use it...
but it would have cost him his will in the end and he would have returned it to sauron in the end...

shadowy_blue
I know this will be long, and some parts of my post will be a little irrelevant to the whole point of this thread, but I just want to elaborate anyway.

If we are talking about individual physical power alone, Gandalf could not "kill" Sauron or Saruman (I'm putting Saruman in the argument to put better emphasis) in hand-to-hand combat (at least until Saruman's fall from his mission), nor could Sauron be killed unless the Ring was destroyed, nor could Sauron "kill" Gandalf. Sauron was only subject to death because he put much of his spirit into a physical, destructible object, The One Ring. Saruman was only subject to death because he disobeyed the rules of the Istari and fell from his status. Had Sauron, Gandalf, and Saruman dueled under normal circumstances, their physical "power" would be of no consequence, since Ainur are not bound to a physical existence.

If we define power as the ability to advance one's own goals, and keep in mind the boundaries and restraints that Gandalf, Sauron and Saruman experienced in Middle-earth at the time of the War of the Ring, then Sauron was obviously the most powerful. Because he was able to assert his will forcefully over his minions, and because he was bound by no moral or ethical guidelines, his ability to advance his own goals was greater then Saruman's or Gandalf's. Gandalf and Saruman were initially bound to the guidelines of being able to use no force over those they guided and by being unable to reveal their true power. I think it is safe to assume that the guideline for the Istari being unable to reveal true power was stringently imposed despite any attempts by the Istari to break it, since Saruman never uncloaked himself, nor did he ever assert the type of power typical of even the weakest Ainu. Because of this, even had they wanted to to, the Istari probably would not have been able to advance their purposes as powerfully as did Sauron.

The point I am trying to make is this: under normal circumstances (i.e. as uncloaked Maiar in Valinor), Gandalf, Saruman and Sauron would not have been able to "destroy" each other, so trying to quantify their "power" would be a fruitless engagement. Under the only circumstances in which they ever met (in Middle-earth in the Third Age, specifically at the War of the Ring), Sauron had more power at his fingertips, and was inherently more powerful than the Istari since he was unrestrained by rules or regulations in his efforts. I could not foresee any end to his rule without greater intervention from Valinor had he still wielded the Ring at the time of the Istari. Gandalf and Saruman may have had "potent spirits", but they could not kill Sauron, and, although they could not be killed either, they could not defeat his armies unless they revealed their true powers and took dominion over the free peoples of Middle-earth in battle, which they were inherently restrained from doing.

Going back to the original topic, Tolkien in his Letters suggested that only Gandalf might be expected to defeat Sauron if he used the One Ring. It says that Gandalf and Sauron both had an even chance of beating each other if Gandalf used the Ring. Which implies that Gandalf is no match whatsoever against Sauron without using the Ring. These three paragraphs state the point more clearly:


Possible arguments:

Tolkien, in places, indicates that things would be hopeless and Sauron would be unstoppable if he came into possession of the Ring again. My response: This would have been the ultimate defeat because the only means for overthrowing Sauron at this point in Middle-earth's history was the destruction of the One Ring. All beings with the spiritual potency to resist Sauron were either gone or leaving. Even if they (Galadriel, Elrond, and Bombadil, who doesn't seem to be interested in taking care of Middle-earth's inhabitants' business) had stayed, they would not have commanded the kind of force necessary to overthrow Sauron militarily.

Which leads into possible argument #2:

Why, then, didn't Gandalf just kick Sauron's butt? We're all familiar with the oft-discussed limitations on the Istari. These weren't limitations on their spiritual power, they were restrictions on how they could address Sauron's threat. Leading an army to destroy Sauron would have resulted in the slaughter of all involved--Sauron's armies were vast, and an army sizeable enough to overcome his would have been impossible to amass. The hope of those warring against Sauron's forces at Minas Tirith was still only in Frodo's quest. They were dead men. The limitations placed upon the Istari were actually a hint from the Powers: in effect, "you've got one hope, and it's not to put up your dukes and challenge him."

Why does Sauron need the Ring so badly, then? Obviously, to prevent anyone from seizing it and claiming it. The quote states that if someone were to bend the Ring to their will, Sauron would be broken and the effect would have been as if the Ring had been destroyed. Sauron needed it, first and foremost, to prevent this possibility (since he never conceived that someone might actually destroy it). He also wanted the power over the Three to eliminate any threat from the Elf angle.

The Ring was Sauron's anchor to the physical realm and it contained a large portion of his power. For these reasons, it was Sauron's greatest strength and only weakness, and we might cornily adjust The Don's advice thus: "Keep your friends close, but your weaknesses closer."

Remember, Sauron had been defeated before while in possession of the Ring. We might consider it a beefing item for a bearer other than Sauron (who was able to wield it) since they would have access to the majority of Sauron's power; but for Sauron, the Ring only contained his own power and was not a supplementary source for enhancing himself. This means he was merely enhanced in relation to his state while not wearing the Ring, not his original innate power.

Having said all that, here's the answer to the question.

They will become an even match. So you can take that as a No or a Yes.

smile

shadowy_blue
Uhm, I re-read my post, and somehow I wasn't satisfied of my reply. I felt like I didn't really answer the question. confused

I'll try to be more direct this time:

I found another quote from the Letters.

Many brutal and repressive dictators started out full of idealism, acting on the basis of a desire to do good. But in their utter conviction that "their way" is the best way for those ruled by them, they brook no opposition, gradually using crueler and more brutal means to quell any dissent. This is how I see Gandalf as Ringlord.

I think that the problem with Gandalf as Ringlord is that the Ring, regardless of who wields it, is evil. It is only capable of creating evil.

Gandalf would be using the Ring to do good things, but the Ring (having a mind of its own) would still generate evil. As a result, good and evil would get all mixed up and muddled together - grey areas, as we should say (no pun intended). In that case, there would be no pure good left in the world; all the good works Gandalf produced would be tainted by the evils of the Ring. He would have tried to do what was best for everyone, but the Ring would twist everything so that there was actually nothing really good at all going on. That's how I figure he "would have made good detestable and seem evil". He would probably justify his actions (presumably "bad" actions) by saying that they were for the good of Middle-earth. He would try to make all of Middle-earth fit his mold of "goodness," and in so doing, stifle all other ways of thinking.

The quote also said that "Gandalf as Ring-Lord would have been far worse than Sauron". I assume it is a matter of slavery of body versus a slavery of mind. Under Sauron, the people would have been slaves, endured torture and witnessed evil deeds which they were powerless to prevent. But, knowing evil for what it was, nothing could have prevented them from choosing to be good themselves and hoping and planning an escape from slavery, which would have eventually happened (even distancing ourselves from the fairy-tale happy-ending; historically and biologically all things evolve / fall apart. That makes hope a very adaptive feeling). But what would have happened if Gandalf had enslaved your mind with his great wisdom and sugar-coated yet turned to evil by the Ring intentions?

I hope I actually answered it this time. stick out tongue

shadowy_blue
OMG...I'm sorry for the triple post, but I tried to edit my last post and I was just only one minute delayed!! embarrasment

I was just about to say that, in so closing (I promise this will be the last post for tonight) Gandalf as Ringlord might not be evil "consciously and intentionally" but the fruit of his intentions and actions will inevitably be.

Sorry. bag

shadowy_blue
There goes my curse. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Will someone even reply? confused

sad

The Inkeeper
holy......shit

shadowy_blue
...at least that's a reply. stick out tongue

Bar-en-Danwedh
shadowy....
i hate typing full conversations, so i'm just going to say...

move to sydney so we can have lunch every day and talk about this non stop... smile

secondly... i keep seeing references to the letters of tolkien, but i have yet to see a published collection of them... is there a book out there with them...?

Nazgul lord
......what a post

shadowy_blue
Bar, LOL...smile

As for the book, I hardly see any published version here either. I ordered mine online. smile

Sarela
Hi,

I think he would be most terrible than sauron and that saw Mithrandir as he want to take this ring on the Entrance from Frodos house.
(sorry for my bad english) embarrasment I hope you understand what I would tell you... love

best wishes
Yuna love bunny wink

Nazgul lord
Hmmmmmm

Sarela
hmmmmmmmmm ????

Bar-en-Danwedh
oh hmmm mm m?

Jackie Malfoy
I think he might.But no one is more powerful then Sauron him self.Anyway Gandalf knew that he would have as much power as the darklord so he said no.
I would take it through!JM

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