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Ok, here's an issue that has been bugging me since i first saw general grievous....

GG has no body, look at him. it appears that he lacks any internal organs....he's just a head stuck on a robot.

now, GG has been described as the "prototype vader" right down to a similar "iron lung"...so what does that mean for vader? just how bad will vader be f'd up by the lava? and what will really be left of him when the smoke clears, and he is "more machine than man"?

when we see an unmasked vader in ep6, we only see above his jaw....barely. so whats he got from the jaw down?

i think its quite possible that he has...NOTHING

fact: it is officially explained that darth vader (mech) is 6'4" because of the mech suit...but wait a minute...that means he must have new legs, new arms(to be proportionate) and a new torso it would seem. its not like they just stretcth anakin on a rack, he gets much much bigger when he is vader.

OK....we HAVE seen the makeup test of fried anakin, but one thing cannot be avoided: when flesh is charred to the point which we have seen in that picture, its done for. its cooked well-done, and rendered useless. the force may be able to prevent death, but it cant turn a cooked steak back into a cow...not gonna happen.

i think that pic of anakin will be what he looks like before the repair droids remove 95% of whats human in anakin. point is, i think anakin will end up being nothing more than a.........head.

what do you guys think about that?

...and yeah i know...

Louis Prima "I aint got no body"

HA! beat you jokers to it

i think you're wrong.

this isn't robocop for cryin out loud.. heh.

when obi-won says he's more machine than man now.. i don't think he means he's just a head and all machine.

actually...thats robocop2....which by the way was directed by Irvin Kershner, director of Empire Strikes Back.

and Robocop still had his internal organs and torso, making him very much like what you probably picture as vader

but anyway........

No, Obi-Wan is just being hyperbolic. Anakin most likely has at least a torso, left arm, and of course, the head. He could also have a good portion of his upper legs. Also Grievous isn't quite just a head. He also has a spinal column to go with it.

BTW, Anakin must also have a spinal column as he would need it, so that helps to support the idea of him having a torso.

i need to see evidence of a spine on grievous

Okay, here's the clearest official pic of Grievous as far as I know. Take a look inside his torso area. There is a brownish spinal cord in there.

http://img73.exs.cx/img73/2208/grievous.jpg

This isn't 100% proof, but for argument's sake, it's quite valid.

Yeah, Vader will have at least one arm, a torso, and part of a leg and the head of course. I'm pretty sure of that.

thanks surgent!

ok then, i alter my arguement due to newly aquired knowledge.
i say that anakin/vader will end up being nothing more than a head and spinal column...which oddly IS just like robocop2, except the bad guy in that was just a brain and a spine...but close enough

but why keep the arm? why keep a burned, useless arm, when he can have a super strong bionic arm capable of lifting a man off the ground by his neck?

palps: lose the arm

If it's limp, cut it off...

I agree PVS, Limbless, and no functioning organs but his brain will be kept alive through the Force. By the way will this one be PG-13?

Vader is probably head/torso/half of each leg/half of each arm.....the rest machine.....

yeah.. he's not like all robot... geesh....

But close...

Lucas said something about Anakin having replaced an arm and both legs one time, he was quoted somewhere...

According to the X-rays, even his neck.

Do they have X-rays in the SW universe? I don't think he's just a head....
That would be stupid, Grievous is one thing, Vader deserves more....

How wels should I call them: blue lightning light-ups of the metal skeleton? Too many letters.

well, here's what we know from what we see and hear:

-grievous is nothing but a head and spine attached to a robot
-grievous has vader's iron lung (or very similar)
-grievous is the vader prototype
-vader becomes 6'4" because of the suit

it HAS to be at least both legs gone, or vader would walk with a severe limp,
having one leg belonging to a 6'4" and the other 5'10" or however tall hayden is, i dont know (...im sure JP will chime in on that, as well as hayden's natural hair color, blood type, favorite color...etc )

....unless they just made the mech leg the same length as the organic, but then vader would seem to have short stubby legs, right?

Hmmm something like that. But he does lose his legs, so it'd work.

we will see may 19 2005.for now may force be with you.

OH MY GOD!!!!!!!!!!!

DARKTIM USED A PUNCTUATION MARK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



you turning over a new leaf?

amazing.... Did it hurt?

oops

Huh?

oh nothing, i just posted on the wrong thread and edited it out.

Ah...

so do you think he has testicles?? without them he's not even half of half a man :0P

maybe it's a head, spinal chord, and testicles at the end.

I think that we know already that he comes out with his whole torso from looking at the pics of him getting shocked at the end of ROTJ.... my guess is that he will loose another arm... but not both because I cant see the fighting going after Anakin looses both arms and I cant see Obi Wan pushing an armless anakin around. Also I would guess that if he loses his legs it will be from them burning in the lava rather than ObiWan choping them off... but who knows....only GL .....and the entire staff of LucasFilm, ILM ect.

Most of you have probably seen this but for those who havnt... The Injuries of Darth Vader - http://www.theforce.net/swtc/injuries.html

thanks for the link a2v

i disagree, from what i've seen there is no proof of an intact torso.
GG has a built ribcage to protect his....spine juice jar i guess you would call it.
could vader not have a similar setup?

http://img81.exs.cx/img81/83/dvbones07.jpg

http://img81.exs.cx/img81/6885/dvbones02.jpg

http://img81.exs.cx/img81/6999/dvbones54.jpg

I guess its totally possible but I just dont see something happening to Anakin in Ep 3 that would leave him as just a head... I think it would be kinda cheesy too. And if Greivous is just a half a head and spine and all droid body than that should be his thing and Vader should not be the same.. I like the Idea of him mangled together of body and machine.

ok, but seeing these pics, i think we all can at least reject the one arm/one leg theory...

personally, i think we will see a mangled anakin body pulled out of the volcano, but then a scene where the body is....cleaned up. a very brief but gorey scene of anakin with all body parts removed, and he will be hooked up to the iron lung.

as for the pics, i cant help but see a machine from the jaw down.
even his neck is partly or wholely mechanical.

hmmm I dont know .... Im still going one arm one leg... but dont hold me to it I still have 259 days to change my mind.


And I think I just did... no hands, one arm to the wrist, one arm totally gone, one leg

LOL

ok, i'll see that "1/2 arm" and raise you a "no arm"

He has a ribcage.......
I really think Vader is much more organic than Grievous. Otherwise, Luke saved a machine....

Luke did save a machine!! With his fathers brain. Thats what functioned the machine. I agree with you PVS look and the shocking clips, clearly even his neck is machine. He will have the torso hanging there but as PVS said, its burnt and useless flesh. I believe there will be almost nothing to salvage except Anakins mind, Which is really all the emporer needs.

well I saw a drawing of anakin in a inclosed water tank with his legs missing and it looked like they had table ready and their were accouple of body parts ready to go on all I know it is going to be intense for now may force be with you.

well, its a weak arguement anyway as cowboy points out.

how is it that the lack of a torso makes him a machine,
and the posession of a torso makes him a man?

its all about whats in that noggin of his.

Vader has some bionic parts there, like his arm, but he looks mostly organic.
He's not going to be just a machine. Even if those pics are acurate, Lucas can (and will) make any changes he wants.......

nope not turning over a new leaf. still same.

well, on those grounds there is no point in even discussing this.
and the pics are more than accurate, they are screen caps from the film.

same man....just altered...now you are darktim1+punctuation marks

I'm just saying Vader has ribs...... Not imitation rib-like things. I just don't feel that Lucas would have the main character of the saga be a machine, unless its R2 and 3PO. Vader isn't going to be the exact same as Grievous.
If the General is a proto-Vader, wouldn't they have figured out how to preserve more?

but its not about preservation.
the force can sustain life, but not ressurect it.
they save what is still alive, and toss what is dead.
charred flesh is dead, at least in the real world.
however, GL has a habit of bending reality, so that will remain to be seen.

and if i am correct on this, vader is still NOT a machine, he is a man.
as i asked before, where is the line drawn between machine and man?
at the thigh and upper arm? just below the wasteline? below the neck?
i think no matter how bad vader ends up, so long as he has a human brain
which thinks and feels he is a man.

Barely. But Lucas has said he loses both legs and an arm, and from what I've heard, Anakin doesn't actually fall in the lava. He stops his fall with is bionic arm and is burned by the intense heat, slowly burning, that would make anyone's mind snap. If he hit the lava, he'd be gone completely.....

I don't think we'll see just a brain.....

After reading this, I relize why Vader is so irritable. And so quick to bite people heads off. He really has had a rough go of it

oh, i know we wont see just a brain,
i was just philosophising on the whole matter of
vader being a man or machine.

now, if you want to get scientific, regardless of what anakin's
arm was made of, he would have been vaporized by a lava,
regardless of what hits it first. he would just go *poof*

but...this is star wars....so we shall see

its really a sad read isnt it? poor vader

I can't believe anyone had the free time to write all that......

Looking at those pictures again, I think the mechanical parts are the parts holding the fake skeleton together. In 1982, Lucas didn't count on a group of nerds at Force.net going to the extreme that Trek fans are known for....

doubt that. lucas is a man who demands detail in every last frame.
that was not just some crappy model...go check the images at the site

ive seen realistic skeletons in old stop-motion flicks,
i doubt that it was beyond lucas' budget to make a realistic skeleton.

Knowing Lucas he'll change those shots in the DVD to make them fit with ROTS. So.... the DVD release may be very interesting.

MAY be !?!?!? i am counting the days with much anticipation.
finally i can view each and every frame in all their glory!!!!

If he does go all the way into the lava pit, do you think he will put his thumb up like arnie at the end of T2?

LOL...Ill take that bet.

Do we all agree that Vader was breathing on his own at the end of ROTJ? If so I think that you must say that he has a torso. Im pretty sure that besides taking off the helmet the rest of the suit no longer worked after it was electrocuted.

see, thats what i dont understand.
an iron lung means his lungs are dead.
so how was he able to speak...
the force?

i guess when in doubt there is always the force.

An iron lung? Don't think he'd be walking around with one of those......

He has a respirator of some sort, and those pics on that site were never meant to be examined that closely. As for Lucas demanding detail, again, he probably never envisioned a bunch of geeks wasting their time with that.
Those hinges don't stand out when watching the film: I've seen it enough times.....
It didn't need to be realistic to look good in that scene.

Amen.

I agree that Lucas never meant for Vader's "electrocutionary skeleton" to be so closely analyzed. Anyway, has anyone even considered that it was done primarily by Richard Marquand (The guy who actually directed ROTJ. He didn't just sit there while Lucas barked orders y'know.)?

Hmmm, yes he did. Marquand directed the shoots (the thing Lucas doesn't like) but Lucas was in charge of the post-production. He said that many times. The skeleton is clearly post-production work.

Didn't Kershner or somebody say that Lucas actually directed much of that?
The movie, I mean.

Anyway, most of Anakin is in the suit, he just isn't in great shape after being
broasted by volcanic heat......

Good point queeq.

It's true. Lucas hates the fiming itself, he likes pre-production and post-production, but not the filming. The reason he does it now because it's too personal for him to let other do the work he doesn't like. PLus with all the digital stuff he can alter anything he didn't like during the shoot, even facial expressions.

That's kind of creepy when you think about it.....

Yes it is... makes you think... and worry.

Just think if he could apply that to the OT.....

Or if he would. He might you know.

OK, now you all need to sit back and think about this

2 words JANGO FETT

only by watching 3 frames, thats right!!! 3 frames
can you see that his head fell out of the helmet.
i never noticed till i watched the scene frame by frame.

GL puts details in every frame, and sometimes he puts
too much detail in to few a frame. another example would be
quigon/obiwan's force-running....way to quick. you blink, you miss it.

plus, too much detail is in the mech parts, it makes no sence.
the skull is COMPLETELY realistic, almost looking like they robbed a
real head from the morgue. why would he put so much detail in the skull and
bolt it on with parts from straus auto????

think again

maybe lucas has changed his mind since then,
but when rotj came out, those metal parts and tubes were meant to
be there.

Oh yes!

YEAH!!! YEAH!!!!!!

i don't mind the specifics, as long as he's right royally f****d up.....

but the pic everyone's seen has a torso (albeit scarred beyond recognition)....to me it seems it's mainly about missing limbs....there's no point looking for too much logic, we're playing under star wars rules here....does anyone really know what a bacta tank can do?....

and that was a retorical question.....if i come back tomorrow and there's 16 pages here on how bacta tanks work.....

well, you see guiro, the way a bacta tank works is that it........ahhh never mind

Ah the great Bacta Wars J/K

I think we've already seen what's going to left of Anakin.
Maybe those cheap, non-bionic looking parts were supposed to be there but it looks like one of those classroom skeletons to me. Those pics weren't meant tolooked at that close and the people at Force.net need a life....

dude, your point is taken.
(no offense intended, but its a debate)

Um, yeah, I noticed its a debate. I was debating.....
What can be seen on that skeleton doesn't look like bionic parts to me, that's all.
We're getting off-topic somewhat. Most of Anakin's body is apparently still there just in bad shape, minus more limbs according to Lucas.

can you post that quote?

No, it was a while back, but he said something about both legs being bionic, an arm. Can't remember where, though. Sorry. I've got to dig through my Insiders and make notes, I guess.

wow , if your right thats one hell of a catch... im going to look right now... man good find

it just goes to show that every detail counts.
every frame counts.
and i dont know if y'all have ever seen "jason and the argonauts"
but its an ooooold stop motion flick with tons of fighting skeletons, all pretty much life life, with no need for metal parts to bolt them together.

the metal and tubes were meant to be there, oh yes. and in three weeks, i will know for sure, along with the rest of us

please do so when you get the chance.
i'd really like to see what he had to say on the topic

INFORMATION....WE NEED INFORMATION....

Need input!

hey PVS ... great find man, its really like 10 frames were you clearly see, in a shadow, one head in helmet flying through the air the the head falls out and we see the helmet fall to the ground.

i watched that scene over and over and over and i just have to come to the conclusion that its impossible for the eyes to see such a fleeting detail.

I just watched it carefully, and at 1:53:15, you can clearly see a second shadow diverge from the helmet's course. It is extremely likely that this shadow belongs to the head.

what i mean surgent, is that if you watch it regular speed,
its just such a fast, faint blur, almost invisible.

i brought up this point because someone argued that lucas doesnt care about the detail of a couple of frames, and i beg to differ.

Alright. Clarification complete.

thank you for your cooperation

*clarification program ended*

Lucas cares about the detail in some things but not in others......

That may have been intentional, the photos may have be fake, I'm waiting for the dvd. Neither of us knows for sure....

And, for the record, I'm not attacking you.....

oh i know that dude

believe me, i recognise the very thick line between an intellectual arguement and an attack.

and ummmmmm 3 more weeks
me when my dvd's arrive in the mail---->

In the EU book Shadows of The Empire Vader has lungs that are charred to the point that he can only breath in his chamber but is working on restoring them with the force.It's clear that he has lungs and can breath on his own for short periods. They are damaged but intact.

EU ALERT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Stop that.... no books, no EU. That argument is invalid....


Now move along.

Random mental fart:

If Anakin has no testicles, then will he really care about Padme's (rumoured at this time) death? Wouldn't the lack of hormones generate a "meh, I don't care anymore, I lost my nads, what good is that wench to me now?" response? Plus, he'll be eeeeeeeevil, so this kind of reaction seems realistic.

Also, wouldn't wearring that suit be amazingly irritating? What if he has an itchy nose? No wonder he's so p*ssed at everyone.

I'm sticking with the idea that Anakin is missing an arm and most of both legs.
I think Grievous is just there to show much worse it could have been....

i think grievious actually enjoys being mostly robot.

so it's not all bad, depending on how you look at it :-p

True. I think he did it intentionally or something...

ok ok...let me get this straight...it doesnt make sense for mech vader to mourn the death of padme because he has no rocks and couldnt give her the goods anyway? wow

but i do agree with your one point...itching...i often have wondered that myself...plus he's always wearing gloves...so how does he scratch even when he's in his chamber and the mask is off...does he have his own personal scratching device? perhaps a scratching droid? and why have we not seen it? damn plot holes!

That was acustom seat with custom... accessories.

yeah but he still has a brain so thats how he remembers her plus he used to dream about her so he could have nightmares after he has killed her.

the inside of the suit is like an enormous dr. scholl sandal....

I think he WAS scratching himself in that ESB scene without the helmet... Veers was already looking kinda appalled..

no, that was because vader farted....oops....wrong thread

Probably both...

vader could have been playing a game of buddy wack-it,and veers was apalled becouse vader told him to pull his finger,but it wasnt his finger.....

just when we thought it couldn't get any lower...

thanks captain

UPDATE:

watched the DVD, the frames are the same. (rotj xray)
when i get around to it, ill post the dvd frames, much better detail.

can someone pm me the new picz or email me at [email protected]

thank u.

??????????????????????????

this just popped up on ebay.....not sure of its validity but cool nonetheless

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/spadesmamma61/autograph-20.jpg

^^^^^
Great Pic

I thought so and why does that look like some kind of Pepsi thing on the lower right?

Not too sure....Looks kinda like the silhouette of a camera to me...???

thats not part of the actual picture, it was added when the pic was scanned.

Damn JP thats one nice pic! If it's a photoshop job it's a damn good one, very high standard indeed.
I'd imagine the text at the bottom probably reads something along the lines of
"Before you can rise must fall"
Damn cool line

Wayne...

ok here is the pic cleaned up a little bit anybody besides me think his eyes are freaky?



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/spadesmamma61/Anakinlavabath.jpg

well, if its genuine...im left wondering what it is, a full image of post duel anakin, or a half/half morph of pre/post duel anakin.

hard to believe he would keep his hair after taking the plunge.

plus, notice he still has an eyebrow on his *ahem* good side.

hmmmm...answered my own question i did...its a half/half morph...cool


EDIT>>>which would partly answer your question JP. a lack of an eyebrow would make his left eye look freaky imho

I meant the iris's of his eyes. They remind me of Palpatines. I doubt its real but I love it.

yeah, just the heavy shadow and the reflection in the iris makes it freaky.

Anakin will be left shred to pieces!
Obi-Wan takes advantage of Anakin's in-experience, although a push in the lavapool...nah...(has someone clouded Lucas'vision?????)
By the time of ANH, the tide has turned....."your powers are weak old man"!!!!!!!!!!

Tough to believe that pic is real, I mean after the lava fall I dont think we will se Anikan wield a saber atleast not as anakin. But strange he would sign an unofficial pic, unless the sig is fake to, Love that Ebay

its a morph, trust me.
sebastion shaw has no eyebrows and no hair in rotj.

It's a fake, and not a very good one in my opinion. I
guess I'm just not seeing the quality that some of
you are seeing.

ok lets say vader does fight, if we get a Vader in suit duel, will he be jumping fliping around like jedis do in the prequels or will he fight straight up old scholl vader style.

thats because you are looking at it with an artists eyes and not a fans

and no Vader flipping around that would just be WRONG! pissed

I agree JP but i can also see lucas saying well we have the technology now to make vader flip and jump and frolick so lets do it!!

JP , what I really meant to say was I thought the makeup
looked poor quality for a large budget movie. God I
hope it's not real.

I highly doubt Van.........looks like fan art I just think its cool is all.

JP, on ebay is it being sold as a official auto with COA? if so I do find it strange he would sign something not official. I know Goose Gossage and he wont even sign a baseball unless its the right brand.

whats COA?

The makeup looked alright to me. Nice pic.

COA=Certificate of Authinticity

really? hmmmmmmm interesting this is....

yeah he probibley will lose leg or other parts but what is that green stuff in the middle of general grevious.

Yeah, I've wondered what that stuff was as well. Perhaps it's some sort of blood for Cyborgs.

maybe

notice his spine rests in it.
...and thats about all thats in it

I think that yes, most of his body will be missing. If you fall into lava...that's what would happen. I know its not totally supposed to be realistic...but I'm sure he wouldn't just be burned...You see, his head could be sticking out of it...but of course was damaged in the fall/fight...etc...but I think that he will automatically need robotic arms and legs...besides the robotic arm he already has..."more machine now than man" sort deal...