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I heard someone say that gladiator is very powerful....
Who would win?

Word of advice; next time, it'll probably be better if you actually learn more about a character rather than just hearign that they're powerful before putting them up against someone else in this forum, it'll help you choose better, believe me. If you need to learn about Gladiator, check here:

http://www.marveldirectory.com/individuals/g/gladiatorii.htm

And if you need to learn more about Apocalypse, check here:

http://www.marveldirectory.com/individuals/a/apocalypse.htm

Tough battle but i would go with Gladiator because he is invulnerable to everything except radiation which i dont think even if apocolypse altered his powers would not able to control

no it goes to Apoc.

Yeah. Apoc wins.

Two jobbers in a fight? Gladiator wins. He'll beat Nur's sorry butt across Earth.

Apocalypse beats the purposely watered down Superman.

Watered down? Gladiator was based on Pre-Crisis Superman.

His name is even Kallark. But he's not nearly as obscenely powerful.

Apocalypse is on the level of aspiring to Nature's power level.
Someone like Cassandra Nova is just trying to reach the level of a person. You have to examine the characters aspirations when you want to see really how effectivlly powerfull they are. Sure you could kill 6 billion people with the push of a button, but you didn't really kill them, you only stoped halted an objects motion. If it were possible to break these laws, call them of hope, or the commandments, you wouldn't be here at all. So you have your own life and all your dreams at your own disposal or growth as you see fit.
Apocalypse has the appearance of a class 100 strength plus to me. I think he could beat Norrin(Silver Surfer) who could surely beat Gladiator, and i think he would topple the gladiator though he might walk with a limp for the rest of his life.

dont get me wrong, it would be an insane battle, but because Apoc can draw his energy from any natural lifeforce, he would win in the end.

Isn't he also a mastermind of sorts?

Maelstrom

Apocalypse has the appearance of a class 100 strength plus to me. I think he could beat Norrin(Silver Surfer) who could surely beat Gladiator, and i think he would topple the gladiator though he might walk with a limp for the rest of his life.

En Sabah Nur > Silver Surfer

SS > Gladiator

Thus:
En Sabah Nur > Gladiator

It seems your saying im using combinative logic when that is not the truth. I'm merely relating the appropritate power to each individually and saying a tank can run over a car and a car a person.
I am not however saying that the car is the person or the tank.
That's just silly logic.

Maelstrom
It seems your saying im using combinative logic when that is not the truth. I'm merely relating the appropritate power to each individually and saying a tank can run over a car and a car a person.

No...you misunderstood Maelstrom. Apocalypse would get raped and killed by Surfer if they got into an all out fight. You think Apocalypse has anything on Surfer who wields the power cosmic and is one of Galactus most powerful herald?

gladiator? the gladiator of the imperial guard? if you remove apoc's machines, science, and geekazoids... and put them in an all out brawl... apoc doesn't stand a chance...

And if you remove my hands, I can't defeat a bowl of cereal.

exactly

if you remove the Surfer's powers, hed get raped by Apoc

He meant Apocalypse's tech, not his powers. Without his toys (only his powers), Apocalypse would get his ass beat by Kallark.

If it wasn't for his tech, he'd probably be dead long ago.

Swanky-Tuna If it wasn't for his tech, he'd probably be dead long ago.

And your point is...? His tech keeps him rejuvinated. It should be Apocalypse vs. Gladiator, not Apocalypse with all his Celestial Tech Vs. Gladiator.

My point is, how often is Apocalypse battling with nothing but the equivalent of jeans and a t-shirt? It's like the Cable vs Magneto battle except taking Magneto's helmet away or Boba Fett vs Venom except Boba Fett gets no equipment.

A-poc would step on gladiator.

anyone who flies around the universe with a mohawk is a loser pussy who couldnt beat a pokemon. Both of these characters are nearly exact copied rip offs from DC characters, but A-poc sucks the least and is better than the character he was ripped off from.


Seriously though, what would gladiator do to A-poc, punch him?

Like Apocalyspe can beat a Pokemon if it meant enslavement of the world was the prize. Apocalypse has done jack shit for 8,000 years if you wanna talk about losers. Gladiator maybe a ripoff but he's just as cool or even cooler than Superman and that's not just my opinion.

Gladiator does what he loves and is respected throughout the Shi'Ar Empire and leads its personal warriors the Imperial Guard. Apocalypse is feared by the X-Men and that's it. Respect? Magneto or Doom ones that are feared and respected by every hero on Earth, not Apcoalypse. Only time Apocalypse conquered Earth was when Xavier was killed and Doom did not have his armor and resources. At the end of AOA, Magneto beat his ass. True Apocalypse could've pulled himself together but, thing is, Magnus could've ripped him to pieces and disperse the remains in different directions of space. No way would Apocalypse have been able to reform after that!

In a fight, Gladiator would speed blitz him like he's done against Thor and others. After a while, he'll realize Apocalypse would just reform; Kallark would through his ass into space. Not much of a way to beat Apocalypse, but still what other way is there to be a shapeshifter.

again, apocalypse would just merely step on Gladiator.

Simply throwing apocalypse into space would not be a problem for him. do you know how many times he has been dealt with in that manner?

ragesRemorse

again, apocalypse would just merely step on Gladiator.

Like he did to Magneto during AOA? Or when he did to the X-Men? Or maybe the Avengers?

Simply throwing apocalypse into space would not be a problem for him. do you know how many times he has been dealt with in that manner?

A wins a win.

Well yes, A-poc would step on gladiator kind of like how he stepped on the x-men and magneto before

And when the hell was that? Got his ass handed to him by an AOA Magneto, who only had half his original powers.

Then it's settled, Apocalypse loses because Gladiator is a well organized team of heroes and has magnetic powers

Nope it's settled that Apocalypse can win cause he can step on people. Except the X-Men who are ticking. Except Magneto who actually beat his ass.

apocolypse would win simply because gladiator looks like superman with a mohawk, witch is the gayest looking thing ever

:rollseyes: Yet, he's more respected then Superman...go figure. Superman's a freaken boyscout...that's gay.

agreed

and can you give me a specific scenario example as to how exactly will apoc step on gladiator???? please?

apoc wouldn't even be able to catch kallark if he chooses. and i do believe that gladiator is stronger than apoc. so what's apoc gonna do huh?

oooooh, that's such a deeply thought, mature, and valid argument... (sarcastically)

I think that Apoc could increase his size and strength in order to match Gladiator..however...in prompt fight, i dont know how Apoc would account for Gladiator's hyperspeed and senses...when the Fantastic Four and Thor were taking weapons from the Shi'ar to use against a critical mas Galactus, Richards increased their speed so that a year for them would only be experienced as a moment for normal people...thus they could get in, take the weapons, and go to alactus without anyone noticing...however Gladiator was still able to detect them and increase his speed enough to take on Thor!... using that speed increase he could cerainly inconvenience Apoc...he is certainly far more intelligent and i think that would be his best advantage

ya but gladiator looks soo gay

All I says is Apocalypse can win a lot on the count that he's a genious with swift technology inspite of being hyped up specifically so a hero can easily defeat him.

But what about Gladiator's technology? The marveldirectory, although old, says he may be boosting himself with Shi'ar tech.

yea its either tech...or some other source that grants him telekenetic abilities that appears as strength...although even without the enhancement he has very vast strength

sure he is strong.. but he looks soo gay

I think he looks funny more than anything. Like he's wearing a punkrock band geek costume.

yeah I always wondered if gladiator was just superman with purple skin and a mohawk. you know almost identical powers and name (CLARK AND KALL-ARK) but en sabah nur whoops his butt (I'm once again spittin' the truth 'cause I hate apaocalypse, HE'S MY #1 LEAST FAV. CHARACTER). and from what I read in the comics, on onslaught, nate grey, and possibly glactus could beat him

Kallark is a mix between Clark and Kal-el. and yes, Gladiator was always intended to be Marvel's Superman.

I'm pretty sure they meant to send a message too by making him look goofy and, from what I read, downplay his powers.

no, they didnt downplay his powers. i personally think Gladiator is pretty rad.

Has Gladiator lost to anybody who he should of easily been able to take out?

Cannonball gave him some trouble

Wynndar

I think that Apoc could increase his size and strength in order to match Gladiator..however...in prompt fight

Regarding this, he can increase his size but does that mean his strength is boosted as well. Increasing one's size doesn't necessarily mean increasing ones strength. Has he ever demonstrated such a feat? Keep in mind that he's Class 100, so the proof would be that he's lifting something above 100 tons. Has he done such a thing?

Swanky-Tuna

All I says is Apocalypse can win a lot on the count that he's a genious with swift technology inspite of being hyped up specifically so a hero can easily defeat him.

The Leader is also a genious, yet a lumbering oaf like the Hulk always beats his ass, so what's your point?

As for the Hero/Villain contract, Dr. Doom, Magneto, and Sinister are always defeated easily because they're villains. Yet they don't look like losers/jobbers...considered useless. Being a villain is NOT an excuse for being a useless jobber who aspires to be a world conquerer.

And don't even bring up AOA, Xavier wasn't even killed by Apocalypse. And Doom hadn't developed his armor or gathered resources.

Wynndar
ThunderCat

Cannonball gave him some trouble

Cannonball only got like two or three shots in. Gladiator was handing him his ass for most of the fight. And Kallark wasn't even there for blood, he only wanted the X-Men for a mission...not to kill Cannonball. The whole fight was just for kicks.

i was just saying....someone like cannonball, not too powerful at all, it was surprising to see him go toe to toe with Gladiator

Wynndar

i was just saying....someone like cannonball, not too powerful at all, it was surprising to see him go toe to toe with Gladiator

Thing was, Kallark was playing with him. Maybe in Cannonball's mind he was going toe to toe. In Gladiators, there's no toe involved...just alot of toying that's all.

yeah, but the look on gladiators face when cannonball absorbed his "mightiest blow" says it all, he couldnt believe it, which allowed cannonball gain the upper hand

Leader doesn't have five millennia of experiance though. Not sure how much of that Apoc has been awake for though. Or if that's how old he is.



Apoc loses due to bad writing?

According to the uncannyxmen.net site, looks like he could siphon Gladiator's power off then beat him with it.

Swanky-Tuna

Leader doesn't have five millennia of experiance though. Not sure how much of that Apoc has been awake for though. Or if that's how old he is.

And during those 5,000 years what has he been doing? Why the hell didn't he conquer it when the civilizations only had spears and swords? Why wait over 5,000 years and run into a world few of superpowered being? Is it because he wants his ass to be kicked? Five millennia and nothing much to show for it - Doc Dooms taken over the world about what...2-3 times already? Magneto has the world fear him and the U.N. give into his demands. And these guys are about into forties or fifties by now?

Apoc loses due to bad writing?

And how many times of bad writing does he have? How many times can we use that as an excuse?

According to the uncannyxmen.net site, looks like he could siphon Gladiator's power off then beat him with it.

I think what they're refering to is his machines. He uses them to aborb powers from others. From what I know of Apocalypse, he boost and takes powers from others using machines; he can't and hasn't done it himself to my knowledge. If he could siphon other peoples powers, he would've done that with the X-Men or with Magneto who beat him down in AOA.

As many times as it is



I thought we weren't supposed to bring AoA up.

Let's not bring it up then. Apocalypse still hasn't absorb the X-Men's powers before. Neither has he even taken over the world.

no dude, apoc has taken over the world in many different timlines its just that he did it times when there was no one to stand up to him. if you revisit some of the old school stories of apoc you'll find that time and time again,(no pun intended) in the distant past of course, he conqured what was then the known world, and he had whole civilizations worshipping him as a god, to name a few, the Egyptians, Mayans, Incans, Aztecs . And he had them always preparing for his coming. usually in dramtic fashions like ancient keys, and trinkets to unlock his tomb are scattered all across the most distant corners of the globe and anyone who retrieves them and wake him from his slumber will be richly rewarded and blah blah blah.

not to mention the Age of Apocalypse.

He conquered a few civilization. If he had truly conquered it, he would still have it now. People would still be worshipping him and those with super powers would have been contained early.

As for different timelines, the only one I know of when he actually did was the Age Of Apocalyspe. And he still was handed his butt by Magneto in a one on one fight. But if he did conquer other timelines without anyone to stand up to him, that shows how much of a loser he is. If he conquered a world in which there are people capable of stand up to him and actually win, then I'd praise him. Conquering a world because you technology that of alien origins - vastly ahead of what is present - and without anyone capable of actually winning to challange you isn't much of a feat. Doom took over a world filled with individuals capable of winning - and only gave it back because he was bored. Thanos attacked Titan - the home of the Eternal Titans - and conquered it as well.

good point, but thats just the thing. as soon as he conquerd one civilization he would travel thru time and conqer another, then by the time he comes to the future, he may not be ruler anymore but he still has followers, and then the disendants of ancient races have ancient tomes containing his history, thus the whole unlocking his tomb, richly rewarded, blah blah blah. Thanos is the ideal conquerer because he doesnt acknowledge niether good nor evil, he just is.

this topic is not about how much apocalypse can conquer, its about him and gladiator goin one on one

Apocalypse to win

Thus making him an idiot. He conquers the world and then time travels to another to conquer? Stay the hell in the world you conquer and maintain it. What an idiot. And has he conquered a world in which they are people capable of actually winning against him if the put up a resistence?

Thanos wasn't evil? Then neither is Doom (who thinks the world is better runned under his control, or Carnage (who's insane and just gets a high from killing people) or Joker (same as Carnage). Thanos took over his home world and killed killed mother in the process - then later boost about it as a feat of accomplishment. When he was conquering and killing - he was evil whether he might acknowledge it or not.

And what about Doom who's accomplished more in the world domination depart than Apocalypse ever had. Magneto might not have conquered the world, but he still has more respect and accomplished worthwild goals (Genosha as his home base recognition by the U.N. for one).



And your proof IS? Gladiator is a cosmic level guy that can and has hanged with Silver Surfer, Beta Ray Bill, Thor, etc. A future Gladiator was sent back into the past to kill Thor and almost succeeded if not for the interference of Donald Blake's friend and Tarene/Thor girl.

Apocalypse has beaten WHO by himself?

but he looks soo gay...

..but wasn't it you who thought Superman was better?

was i?. i dunno

the fact is it took all of the xmen plus cyclops sacrificing himself to beat apocalypse, cannonball beat gladiator, does that answer your question?

Obviously you're the kind of poster who doesn't READ the entire or most of the post.

This is what I wrote early in the thread:


So, does this answer your claim?

i read the posts, dont worry, once cannonball started the fight do you think gladiator was gonna let cannonball beat him? NO, hes too proud, his power is based on his confidence, but people are still claiming gladiator could beat apocalypse, i was reitorating the point. thats all.

He was fighting back, that didn't help him 'cause Gladiator was still kicking his ass. Then he blocked one of Gladiator's punch and got in a few shots and then the fight ended 'cause of interference. Gladiator wasn't even TRYING to kill him - if he did he wouldn't have just used speed and strength but also heat vision and freeze breathe. Wonder Man would beat Cannonball in a fight, and Gladiator manhandled Wonder Man in their fight utilizing his freeze breathe, speed, strength, and heat vision.

but he looks soo gay

...he is gay. What guy would wear blue lipstick on his mouth?

...therefore Kallark wins!

*shudders

...crazyspinz what's wrong? Are you cold? Where are you posting this from? The South Pole...maybe?

no due, canada eh...

...no wonder you're shuddering!

there was no interference, sure gladiator kicked his ass for most of the fight but when it really mattered cannonball knocked him down and when gladiator got back to his feet he was ready to talk.

i'm not saying for one second that cannonball is better than gladiator, just that its an awfully long leap from an x-man to apocalypse

Talk? They didn't even finish the fight. Cannon got a few shots in; he still wouldn't he won if that fight continued. The X-Men came and so that fight was over. If Gladiator was in for blood lust, Cannonball would've died. Kallark was playing around and holding back, utilizing only two of his powers. All out, Cannonball die.

But is it a long leap from Thor, Wonder Man, or Hulk to Apocalypse? And can Apocalypse even fly?

of course its not a long leap, each of those would stand a chance in a fight with apocalypse, but my argument is not who is stronger, its who is harder to defeat? i know in aoa magneto beat apocalypse. fair enough, but to be honest i always thought of gladiator as a poor mans superman (as u were comparin the two earlier), i just cant see him beating apocalypse on his own. i'm sure eventually kallark woulda beat cannonball, im just sayin that apocalypse hits a lot harder than guthrie. im sure gladiator would give apocalypse one hell of a fight, i dont dispute that at all.

i understand and respect your points but i just cant see kallark beatin apocalypse one on one.

Apocalypse would have potential to win...





But..so would Gladiator...

I don't know really...but I bet on Apoc.

Thing is, he's not a poor man's Gladiator. Marvel and DC often copy each other's characters. Marvel has duplicated versions of DC character and made these clones better than the originals: Namor, Quick Silver, Thanos, Vision, etc. I don't get why you or some of the other posters see him as just a Superman copy. He, like other Marvel duplicates, are much more and even better than their counter parts. However, alot of other posters on this board love and respect him - more than Superman. The only thing wrong with him is his confidence weakness. Other than that he's leader of the Shi' Ar Imperial Guard with sworn allegiance to Lilandra and a warrior's code of honor. Unlike Superman, Kallark isn't a scout boy who beats up people he shouldn't (Darkseid, Imperiex, etc.) cause his company caters to him. Gladiator > Superman

IMO, his as strong or stronger that Apocalypse and moves at light speed. And unlike Superman, Gladiator's fought at light speed before. Apocalypse is powerful, but is he even going to be able to keep up with Gladiator?

Quicksilver is better than Flash? Because his power is more reasonable?

what genius said that quicksilver could beat flash?

i know marvel and dc copy each other, its hardly coincidence is it?gladiators got a great reputation and hes very powerful, and there are very few who can be a match for him i admit that, but i think apocalypse is that match, i dont think your giving apocalypse his due, and aoa, as with most alternate universes, doesnt really stick with continuity in any way.

Beyonder i can honestly see where u are coming from, but i just dont think your giving apocalypse enough credit.

and one more thing

supes> kallark

Quick Silver is better than Flash cause he's a hard head. Unlike Flash, life pisses him off at times cause everyone moves so slow to him. Plus most of his costumes and looks are better than Flash. Even though he isn't a fast as Flash, his conflict with his father Magneto makes for an interest background.

Afilliations: X-Factor, X-Men, etc.
Father: Magneto (leader of Acolytes & the Brotherhood, megalomaniac)
Sister: Scarlet Witch (Avengers member)
Wife: Crystal (royal Inhuman)
Daughter: Luna (mutant/inhuman hybrid)
Brother In Law: Black Bolt (king of the Inhuman race)
Sister In Law: Meddusa (queen of the Inhuman race)

Quick Silver's basically royalty as well. If his father ever takes over the world and he decides to join, he'll be royalty the second time around. Marvel characters are less powerful than their DC counterparts, but Marvel's have more dimension to them. Quick Silver ain't just another copy.

flash is faster and stronger, as far as the costumes go everyone has a different opinion, i like flash's just as much if not more than quicksilvers, maybe the character is more interesting, sure, but flash would piss all over him in a fight, royalty doesnt come into it.

Wasn't comparing fighting skills. I've even admit that Flash is more powerful. The comparison was in response to Gladiator being a poor man's Superman. How he's just another copy. My argument is that he's not just a Superman copy as neither is Quick Silver, Namor, Thanos, and much more. Sure they're copies. But that doesn't pop into people's minds when they're brought up...they've evolved so much more.

As for Superman being better than Gladiator, he's not that powerful. Gladiator was based off of Pre-Crisis Superman, who's > post-Crisis. Superman beating people like Impierex, Brainic with Imperiex's powers, Darkseid, etc. is just DC's sick overly love of Superman. He shouldn't even be beating these people. Heat Vision > Omega Effect c'mon.

of course, i completely agree.

As for supes, theyve turned him into a right b!tch recently, but the strongest superman would beat gladiator i believe because no matter how hard gladiator hit him, supes would come back for more, which would eventually dishearten kallark, allowing supes to beat him. i believe both at their most powerful would be around equal.

yes, it was on one of the sites

hell, just give gladiator kryptonite gloves and make him punch out supes.

yeah, i could do that if i had kryptonite gloves

Celestial tech>>>>>>> Shi'ar tech

Apoc's full capabilities have not been elucidated. As for his comic perf., I can say for sure some of the writers hate him( maybe cause he's ageless, and has such cool powers and tech, or who knows). Gladiator would be owned, if we provided decent writers( world's oldest and most powerful mutant enhanced with some of the top technology in the universe, hopefully some day a writer will come along and realize that this actually means.. .).

While Gladiator is indeed a weaker version of Superman, he's only slightly so. Silver Surfer is not > than Gladiator, no way. This would be an interesting fight as Apocalypse is practically god-like, but considering Gladiator is on a cosmic scale, I think he would win.

crazy silver surfer silver surfer silver surfer

Lol, you want to know why he's mentioned so much? Because he has the absolute dumbest name for a Class 1 superhero! Lol, 'oooh here comes the Silver Surfer to beat up us evil villains. Better run and hide from the Silver Surfer.' Oh please. I'm more afraid of the Silver fish.

Yes he might be the oldest, but is FAR from being the most powerful mutant. Mutants like Franklin Richards, X-man, Proteus, Legion, Hyperstorm, Magneto ect are him superior. And the fact that he NEEDS the celestial technology just makes him weak. Anyone with such technology would be powerful.

i think xman proteus legion hyperstorm are superior/and or = to, but magneto??? please.......

where have they fought besides an alternate time line??

I don't think Magneto is below Apoc in terms of power maybe technology yes. And the fact that he ripped Apoc in half in AOA hints that he could do the same thing in main timeline

no it doesnt hint at anything. thats why they do alternate realities. so they can do whatever they want. galactus -is- below celestials, and it is obvious, but in alternate realities he killed them.

punisher killed the whole universe in an alternate time line. does that hint that he can do it in this universe....... obviously not. thats the purpose of alternate realities. i knew you were talking about "age of apocalypse" as soon as you mentioned magneto. which is invalid. please stick to main stream marvel....... if you are going to compare.

Oki but they haven't fought before so it's hard so say. But all ot the other mutants i mentioned would beat Apoc

nothing is garaunteed. there are ways around everything...... in any universe.

In that case any mutants could beat Apoc and versa vice

its a possibility

if anybody has the resources/strength/speed/technology to take out gladiator.......... i'd say apoc would be the one to do it though.

but gladiator is a fierce opponent. to bad once the tables start to turn on him, his power drops like a stone.

Maybe but there a other people on earth that could take out Gladiator, like Thor, Silver Surfer ect. Well got beaten by Cannonball once so...

gladiator got beat by cannonball?????? you havnt read that issue have you??

thor can beat gladiator.......... eric masterson thor beat down gladiator, and rather easily at that. imagine what the real thor would do to him.

It happend in uncanny x-men 341. Glads wanted to get help from the x-men, started to fight with Cannonball beat him up a little bit, but Cannonball was doing ok. Glads got mad and used all his power in one blow, Cannonball channeled all the kinetic energy from his killer blow and directed it to his force field. Glads lost his confidence and Cannonball punched him away

well it didnt happen like that........... 1) gladiator got back up immediately, and 2) at any time during the fight gladiator could have decimated cannonball. he was toying with him to get the attention of the rest of the x-men. if i recall it was cannonball thinking "just how fast are you??" while he bounced -harmlessly- off of gladiators chest. gladiator even stopped cannonball mid-blast. something ol cannon thought was "impossible".


gladiator was a far cry from losing that battle.

Yes true but in the end Cannonball did pretty well, so i guess if they were ever to fight again i really think Cannonball have a fair chance

Gladiator got back up after Cannonball had a nice chat with the Beast

if gladiator had -wanted- to, he could have beaten cannonball up long before the end where cannonball clocked him. he was toying with him all through the issue.

Legion? Doubt that.

Magneto? As some said that's AoA, and that's BS, Apocalypse has molecular scale control of his own body, no way was that conclusion'd possible, not to mention his ability to draw more and more mass. This is just another example of writers hating on apocalypse, it's like superman in the animated series and in the jla(haven't seen the latest season so maybe it's finally changed), it's just wrong.

Proteus? Doubt it, apoc's always been referred as the most powerful mutant, and he should be able to use practically any power with his molecular manipulation powers, only x-man's supposed to be at his level.

X-man? Well, maybe he does something to show his powers, but at least until around issue 54 he's shown barely an indication he could've gone head to head( except for the future event he viewed.), I mean his head starts bleeding almost as soon as he starts using his powers for real, and they begin to fluctuate(aka he begins to get weaker, only to unleash a little more when he's almost exhausted). Besides I mean if you read x-man, there's some sort of metal or substance, that can make soldiers immune to TELEKINESIS and TELEPATHY, x-man was almost owned by a huge squad of those guys(I'll have to read the rest of the issues to see if anything changes, but I doubt it), apoc could always turn his skin into such a substance making him immune to telekinesis and telepathy.

Franklin Richards? Well it seems like he could beat him, but, and this is a big but, if apocalypse's abilities were finally elucidated by a good benevolent writer(you know as they often do, supes pre-crisis, the omega level mutant showcases, etc), it'd be a close fight.

I'll say it again, Apoc's been called the strongest mutant time and again, (even in x-man's comics they don't always say " strongest mutant", but that he may be able to go head-to-head with apoc, or that he's the most powerful telepath, etc) he's got celestial tech improvements, and IIRC I think I heard he gets more and more powerful after each regeneration period. He's powers havent been fully showcased, and he's received tons of writer hate. I'd like to wait until a writer does a good deed and finally decides to show why he's called the most powerful mutant time and again, before drawing conclusions.

yeah maybe strongest but def. not the most powerful. And he can only control the molecules in his body not the way that the Molecule man could do. Proteus, his guy can warp reality he could easily beat Apoc for sure. X-man was made by Sinister to destroy Apoc so yeah he could do it.

Franklin is a reality warper and his feats just dwarfs anything Apoc could dream of. Magneto have been quoted as the most powerful mutant on earth but he isn't the same goes for Apoc. The fact is there's a lot of mutants/superbeings that could easily defeat Apoc with ease

Well, it's obvious they mean most powerful, I think he's also been called that(and more times than magneto, and given mag's fan base we can attribute he's case to fan pleasing.). I've read the AoA comics, and quite large chunk of x-man's comics, and it's obvious that at times it's said "that he might be" able to defeat/ go head to head/ or equal apocalypse. The fact that sinister designed him to do so does not necessarily mean he can do so, remember all apoc.s got to do is go away for a few years and nate's dead, he's biologically designed to have a short-life, and whenever he uses his powers for real he begins bleeding and weakening(as far as issue 54).

As for apoc's molecular manipulations, posited that he can make complex machinery, flame throwers, projectile weapons, and other such complex devices it seems he can indeed manipulate things at molecular scales with some incredible precision. Given also that he seems to display an ever larger array of powers(levitation, teleportation, telepathy, several kinds of energy shields and projectiles, regeneration, etc), the limits of his powers are still not fully elucidated.

We know that the technology of men was capable of containing Proteus, the same tech was capable of making soldiers immune to x-man's telepathy and telekinesis abilities(they were owning him basically) and he's the strongest telepath. Clearly celestial tech goes way way beyond these, if apoc. can mimic the materials and mechanisms used to contain or resist proteus "reality manipulation abilities", and x-man's telekinesis and telepathy, he should be able to engage in a real battle with'em, with the odds in his favor.

We know there's a lot of writer hate on apoc, so that should address what's been happening with him in a lot of issues(like AoA). I think we should wait and see what happens especially if some day they decide to bring him back.

Oh god, I remember that What IF? How the hell did Punisher kill the universe anyway? I loathe that character.

Magneto probably totaled Apocalypse because he was so old and decrepit. Too decrepit to reform.

Well there you go without the celestial technology Apoc is just the oldest mutant and pretty powerful but there are many mutants more powerful than him (evolution) right. Just admit it without celestial tech Apoc would just be a regular mutant

Not a regular one, he's still able to increase in size, has regeneration capability, extreme longevity, and speed/strength that seemed to be increasing( rise of apocalypse comics, prior to celestial tech).

In both animated series he's the strongest(old x-men, and new x-men evolution), and given his background he should be the strongest one in comics, if it weren't for the mean writers. ( They should also stop with the whole "survival of the fittest" single drive, and give him a far worthier goal aka something transhumanist'esque, like in the evolution series. )

Those animated series is not accurate, you can't say Apoc is the most powerful because he is in the series. Many of his powers is bacause of cel. tech. If he is really that powerful why would he be afraid of Cable and infected him with T.O virus? That's because he knows when Cable grows up he would be able to destroy him

would anyone like to inform me how a weak ass earthly mutant like Apoc, who cant take over the earth....cant take over my garage...would be able to take Franklin Richards?...as a child he can subconsiously create a universe, manipulate time and matter...press "reset" on reality (Abraxis battle)...and have limitless power as an Adult...Apoc is way outclassed there...dont base any information off the cartoons, they are entirely inaccurate. Apoc is not the most powerful mutant...I honestly dont think he is the oldest either (Azael). a gang of earthlings can beat him...it just takes more than a couple of x-men like Shadowcat and Morph to get him

That's probably a situation where he would take impersonate somebody Franklin knows or just take on a random human form and befriend him. Then either spring a trap of some sort or just manipulate him until he's just a pawn.



Hehehe, this part made me laugh. I know what you mean but it's worded as if he subconciously did these things at will.

Didn't even go like that...Gladiator was toying with him the whole time. And I addressed this matter a few post ago already.



...fair chance of dying? Here's an illustration by a poster from another board of how this fight went.

Gladiator VS. Cannonball

http://superherochat.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=70230&highlight=gladiator
http://img75.exs.cx/img75/205/ONEHIT.jpg

Where are you getting this idea that Apocalypse KNOWS ALL of the Celestials Tech? Just cause he has it DOESN'T mean he knows how to use it to its FULLEST. Hell, I'll bet you my dad can fiddle with Microsoft Access and figure out a few things, but HE ISN'T going to know how to use it effectively unless he hit the HELP BUTTON. Even then he'd still have problems since HE'S COMPUTER ILLITERATE. You think Apocalypse has full access to Celestial Tech, having them doesn't mean he knows how to use them! Try decryption of Celestial language to begin with. And just cause you know the language doesn't mean you'll automatically know how the tech operates.

Celestial Tech > Shi'Ar > Kree > Skrull > Earth's

Apocalypse AIN'T no genius to begin with. His intelligence came from learning what little he could from the Celestial Tech and being able to live long enough to attain all the knowledge he has. Even then, Reed Richards or Doctor Doom have techs that rival or above what Apocalypse has created using what little he knows from Celestial Tech.

The series, were just an example. As for Franklin, I'll have to see if he's all that he's hyped up to be, from what I've read so far nate grey ain't. It's still BS if true, I mean millenia old super mutant with GENETIC ENGINEERING knowledge, and some technology from those who hang with "the one above all"(unless the comics explain more, that seems like a reference to you know who). which should mean it's pretty much the best tech in the universe by far. A guy with such a background getting owned by a baby who got his power from cosmic radiation around the earth, iirc... is nonsensical writing IMHO

Oh, and yes cable could probably be able to beat apoc or at least give him the fight of his life, without the virus, as he'd be stronger than nate grey. Sinister fckd up big time by placing limitations on nate.



Obviously he doesn't know how to use it all, but it seems Celestial tech should be way way beyond Shi' ar tech, even a portion of it would be above Shi' Ar, though I may be wrong, I've not read that much about celestials(marvel directory).


Oh, come on, it's not like he hasn't a clue either, I mean just look at his body, the guy's had millenia's with the tech, he's body's pretty much filled to the brim with it(sometimes when he open's his mouth it's machinery what you see). He's used it to regenerate his body, and constantly increase his powers. As for intellect, he can grow in size, and alter his body at the molecular scale, he could probably increase intellect as he does with strength, size, energy, speed.

PS as for why apocalypse hasn't taken over, I think it's cause he was waiting for more mutants to arise, and to attain power through war, as he espouses survival of the fittest. ( or maybe not, I know not)

Yupp agree with you here is kinda stupid that an offspring of two beings who got their powers from cosmic radiation should be that powerful. But that's the way it is and Franklin owns Apoc big time

...kinda stupid like a geeky scientist who gains powers over molecules through a cosmic rift, huh? And became more powerful than the Cube Beings (Kubik, Kosmos, etc.). I don't seem to remember his name, do you Molecule man?

Franklin IS that powerful, and it isn't stupid. Sue Richard's powers derive from the very dimension of the Celestials. While pregnant, Reed saved their child's life with the help of the Cosmic Control Rod of Negative Zone. Additionally, Franklins a mutant as well which would bust his powers even more (think Thanos who's a Mutant Eternal Titan).

Sue's power deriving from Celestial dimension + cosmic rod + mutation = Franklin Richards

That's why Franklin at full potential is near or above a Celestial. Franklin smash punny Apocolypse.



...yet he still hasn't conquered the world. Just cause he figured out how to weild together Celestial dumpster lids into an armor & incorporated some of their kitchen appliance's tech into his armor doesn't mean his tech puts him above Shi'Ar tech. If it did, he'd conquer the Earth by now. The Shi'Ar has an entire empire which they rule; Apocalypse can't even conquer Earth in millenias.

It IS stupid outside the comic world. Franklin's mutation was probably enhanced by what Sue and Reed do but not by what they are.

You mean like how Peter Parker & Mary Jane Watson conceived Spidergirl?

Also stupid but slightly less so.

Edit: But not stupid in that the characters are stupid, just those events are stupid.

Apocalypse vs Gladiator.....

i love how people put down FR just because they dont think anyone could be that powerful and dont even know him from comics

Well they have a justifiable point. When a character becomes that powerful, it detracts from the stories and it's a testament to poor writing. It's basically saying 'we don't know what unique and cool power to come up with anymore, so we'll give them all to him.' A mortal who is powerful enough to create universes is ridiculous, and again, is just poor writing. Especially when that mortal is in a toddler.

Gladiator. Unless it's Maximus, then probably Apocalypse

actually, its good writing, when he uses his powers like that there is always high cost or it is in response to some tragedy (his family being killed in Onslaught, or his baby sister dieing)...also he is a child and doesnt have control or conscious intent to do these things

Originally posted by Beyonder
...kinda stupid like a geeky scientist who gains powers over molecules through a cosmic rift, huh? And became more powerful than the Cube Beings (Kubik, Kosmos, etc.). I don't seem to remember his name, do you Molecule man?


Owen Reece was not a geeky scientist he was just a nerd working at the atomic plant. And his powers is from the omnipotent cosmic cubes and without restrictions and limitations from the users makes them equal to IG stated by Mephisto. Yeah he can easily beat Beyonder

makes who equal to IG??

The cubes themselves are in fact as powerful as the IGs, but only if one removes the limitation put upon them. Logic would dictate that the emerged beings, from the cubes, would be equal to the Gems, since they can take the limitations off of themselves. Since the Molecule is human he has the potential to evolve. He revealed how far he has evolved in FF annual 27. He is now more powerful than he was in the Secret Wars affair. He is also now more powerful than any of the evolved cosmic cubes like Kubik, Kosmos, and them. So because he is human maybe he can take of the restrictions and become as powerful as IG

No, that's not good writing because the cost is always compromised once they make an excuse to fix the tragedy. Having a 2 year old who can't even feed himself powerful enough to create pocket universes to send the heroes who 'died' completely destroys the integrity of the story. Obviously I don't think it best to leave such major heroes as the Fantastic Four and the Avengers dead, but you don't kill them off in the first place. You kill off characters that the Marvel Universe can live without, and you leave them dead. Yes I realize this is a comic universe but every time I read about a hero or villain coming back from the dead, it does two things:

1. hurts the value of the story in which the character died.

2. and most importantly, decreases the friggin' value of the comic in which the character died! I'm trying to make some money here people!

Franklin is a supporting character, don't put much emphasis on him and story. And it's not like he's going around and kicking everybodies butt all over the place, he's not kill gods and such. Additionally, if mortals like X-Man, Molecule Man, the Ancient One, etc. can rise to that level, I don't see a problem with Franklin. Especially since he's not the main character of the story.



A nerd is STILL a mortal. As for the cubes being equal to the Infinity Gems, individually maybe. The Infinity Gauntlet, however, surpasses any one cube. You need about five cubes to put Eternity down, the Infinity Gauntlet did the same, however, put down a rogue of others like the two Celestials, Galactus, Love, Hate, Chaos, Order, Chronos, etc. A cube being is still NOT equal to ALL FIVE GEMS IN UNISON or FIVE COSMIC CUBES.

As for your remark about Oween Reece being more powerful then the Beyonder, true if you're talking about the Post-Reconned Beyonder. If it was current Molecule Man Vs. Pre-Reconnned Beyonder, Molecule Man would get his face rearranged into his ass.

again...molecule man and Beyonder are part of one power source...

Ah but what other mortals are able to create universes? And all while wearing a Barney shirt at that?

Side note: I don't recall the Celestials involvement during the Infinity Gauntlet saga? Were they also defeated by Thanos?

2 celestials were present. not the entire race.

Yeah but if the Celestials are omniscient or close to shouldn't they be able to overcome the Infinity Gauntlet? I mean The One Above All is a Celestial correct?

Yes they were defeated. They threw planets at Thanos.

Wow, takes a lot of toughness to knock planets aside, that's one bad-ass glove. Don't let Johnny Cochran get near it.

i dont think TOBA is a celestial....that doesnt make sense

Toba? Who's Toba? Lol, ohhh, The One Above All! Well that's what the Marvel Directory said.

typo

Who? You or the Marvel Directory? If the latter, it's not a typo, it's a full-blown mistake. They went into a fair amount of detail about it.

It's NOT a mistake. However, The One Above All Celestials is DIFFERENT from The One Above All that Living Tribunal represents. When Eternity brought the case against Warlock forth acussing him of being unfit to wield the Infinity Gauntlet, among those present to witness was The One Above All Celestials & another (Ziran the Analyzer I think). LT CLEARLY states that he represented a higher power to which dwarfs Warlocks own, that being is The One Above All.

This stuff about the Celestials being able to overcome the IG is nonsense. The Celestials are below Death & Eternity who were both present & unable to overcome the IG's powers. Hell, The One Above All Celestials WERE one of two Celestials who used planets as "weapons of war" against Thanos w/ the IG.

As for Franklin, he's more than just a moral. The kid is basically what human kind could potentially evolve into. The Celestials acknowledged him, don't dismiss him just cause he's a mortal.