Luke/Leia conversation

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ajrocksteady
Hello all! Just a few mins ago at work, my friend and i were watching Episode 1 and just talkin Star Wars.(circuit city) Our store is filled with star wars stuff in prep for tuesday so its hard not to talk about it, but anyways we were discussing Return of the Jedi when an interesting point came up. During the revealing convo between Luke and Leia the catalyst for the convo was Luke asking her if she remembered her real mother. It got us to thinking that if Luke had no memory of her and never knew her, why would he ask her that question? Why ask about someone u don't know or remember? Was he just trying to learn about the mother he never knew? Is this just setting up what we know about the twins being separated? If Padme dies briefly after giving birth how does one remember her and the other doesn't? Maybe this isn't the best question or i'm reading into it too much but i just found it strange. Any thoughts?

One

NoFate007
The only reason behind asking Leia was for Luke to try to learn whatever he could about his mother, thats why he insists on "your real mother" and then says "I have no memory of my mother..."

As for how Leia knows anything, that'll just have to be explained by Lucas somehow or become another one of the many plot errors.

Gangularis
how about leia comes out first.. her mother holds her.. and looks at her, but there's a sorrow in her face...... leia remembers this about her.

padme then dies... a few moments later, another little suprise pops out and it's Luke!!

Ushgarak
Old question, this. Luke is obviously trying to trace his past, but the 'remembering her mother' things is either going to be explained, or it is a plot error, or it is removed from the new DVD editions.

Cipher
Exactly.

Or Padme doesn't actually die.......

Morridini
It is not removed from the DVD's, it's the same old conversation.

queeq
It hasn't been changed? Then I wonder what's gonna happen to Padme and Leia in ROTS...

Ushgarak
Her not dying would come under it being explained. But my guess still is that no direct explanation will be offered.

zutalurs
I always got the sense that Luke wasn't looking for info about his past as much as he was looking for a way to bring up Leia's adoption so he could tell her she is his sister.

queeq
That would be allright with me though. How much confirmed ARE the reports that Padme dies?

OB1-adobe
All I know is that by the end of the movie she is a corpse. I heard through "rumors" her coffin looks kinda cool. Kinda like carbonite Han, only displaying her in a more pretty way, instead of like Han with look on his face.

queeq
So her death is confirmed... hhmmm.. odd..

mephistodesigns
several reviews have pointed out that this line has "either been altered or omitted". I don't know what Morridini is talking about. We'll find out tomorrow though. If it isn't changed, then maybe she doesn't die. Maybe Lucas filmed two versions to throw off fans or is just leaking "bad" info on purpose. He did have some nice cover ups with the "i'm your father" line.

Morridini
U don't understand what i am talking about?
I am talking about the conversation not being changed. remember that the DVD's are allready out somewhere in the world, including Norway.

mephistodesigns
oh i know what you're talking about. I'm just pointing out that several reviews of the AMERICAN version, say that it has been changed. Now I'm not saying your wrong, but ben burtt and several others have pointed out that they aren't changing everything in the other countries, like somewhere in Europe Leia is actually known as Lela. And they didn't change her. There are many translations that end up saying things differently. So in the reviews of the version I'm buying tommorow, it very well may be "altered or omitted" since several reviews I've read have said that it is. Now these reviewers could be wrong, but a lot of them are saying this. That's why I said we'll find out tommorrow for those of us who get it on the 21st.

guiro72
everything i've heard says line won't be changed....

best explanation i've heard was on another thread on this board...theory went: luke and obi get dropped off on tatooine first, then leia, padme, bail etc. travel on to alderaan, giving leia some quality time with padme before she dies....will try to find out who's idea this was to give credit (or save me the time and come forward).....nice work, whoever you are....

guiro72
was captain midnight.....

Cipher
So far, there isn't official confirmation of Padme's death, just speculation at this point. She may very well fake her death to watch over Leia from a distance.
Lucas couldn't film a funeral scene on-set, then film a scene of her in disguise looking sad somewhere on Alderaan? A shot like that would be done in front of blue (green) screen anyway.......
If she doesn't die, she'd have to fake her death because of her fame. And Lucas has maintained the paranoid Naboo tradition of disguising their leaders....

queeq
So, all's still open.

Master Kadub
I dont think Padme dies......
it would screw up a lot of stuff....
I mean the only real purpose to Padme dying would
be to portray Anakins darkest moment ;

or that she mask herself in death to watch over leia...

Luke is just stuck out to survive for himself, and I have always
thought that line he has with Leia in ROTJ was to bridge their
relationship as brother and sister.....

queeq
But Anakin's darkest moment is, as it has always been, the near-to-death fight with OB1 when he tries to kill his master. That's what the ANH fight is about more or less... After all, Padme is NOT a leading character in the saga... She plays a part, but in the end no more than the woman who gives life to Luke and Leia, all in the interest of Anakin's destiny.

Ushgarak
I think GL thinks she is very major, as major as Luke, Leia or Han. And the indications are increasingly that she dies, though that is not 100% yet.

queeq
Well, I hope not. But how can she be major? She plays no serious part in it all, except for Anakin falling for her... I can see her as a Han-sized character maybe... supporting the story, but not a leading character. What Han does or does not plays no real issue in the powerplay of the universe. He does one major thing to trigger it all: rescue Luke. So does Padme: give birth to the twins.

Ushgarak
Ah, come on, queeq, you know GL- he looks at the importance of characters beyond their simple contribution to the plot; it's what they represent. All that stuff about Han as the selfish hero, remember? GL sees the development and demonstration of this with Han as at least as important as the plot of ANH.

queeq
So where's that change in Padme? I've not seen her character change much...

Ushgarak
But what she represents in the story is important- GL goes on about her solemn duty and change of mind and deciding to stand up for what is right etc. all the time in interview; and likewise her decisions in her love affair with Anakin, duty vs. devotion etc... GL loves all that, and he puts emphasis on it.

queeq
Oh yes sure... Let me just say then that he shouldn't do to here what he decided after all not to do to Han: not to let her die.

Ushgarak
Wow... that was a whole load of negatives...

queeq
Ain't I great? big grin

Mace Skywalker
its not a plot error. Everyone has a mother for god sakes. wouldnt you wanna know who yours was.

like nofate007 said...
The only reason behind asking Leia was for Luke to try to learn whatever he could about his mother, thats why he insists on "your real mother" and then says "I have no memory of my mother..."

queeq
So?

Mace Skywalker
exactly

queeq
Because?

snuckleman
Why is everything that doesn't make sense right away a plot error?
I've always assumed Leia was talking about here adopted mother, not Padme. Leia has no clue she was adopted, so to Leia her mother was Mrs. Organa. Maybe Mrs. Organa died when Leia was four or five.

captainmidnight
dude.... luke asks leia about memories of her REAL mother,and she didnt know much,only that she was very beautiful,if she was talking about her adopted mother she would know more than just her looks......right?

snuckleman
Dude, if Leia doesn't know she's adopted than she has no clue Padme exists, therefore Mrs. Organa is her real mother to her. And if she (Mrs. Organa) died when Leia was very very young, all the memories would be images. Think outside the box.

PVS
then why would luke stress "your REAL mother"?

there is no box to think outside of, the script is the script.

the whole point of that scene was that luke wanted to know about HIS mother by asking leia. if it was not padme she was talking about, that dialogue is stripped of meaning.

snuckleman
I guess I never noticed Luke saying "real" mother, I guess that sorta destroys my arguement. But, if Padme dies in episode 3, which I don't know if she does or not, than Leia would only probably be a few days old if that when Padme dies, than she wouldn't remember a thing, let alone how she looked. Anyway I guess we'll find out in ep3.

PVS
are you asking for it to make sense? laughing
i'm expecting the final explanation to make little or no sense...

such as a 2minute old leia being able to remember her mother's face.
i bet thats how it will play out.
and we will all just have to say WTF!??!?!?

snuckleman
I tried to make it make sense, hence my Mrs. Organa comments. Which I still hold on to, yes luke says 'real mother', but who says Leia is talking about Padme? Like I said, to Leia Mrs. Ogana is the only mother she's ever had and knows about. It's obvious luke knows Leia is adopted, Obi told him so, but maybe Leia doesn't know. That's my whole arguement, that Leia DOESN"T know she's adopted, if you take it that way it makes sense. Luke says 'real mother', and to Leia, Mrs. Organa was her real mother, makes sense to me.

queeq
Err... yeah, but Leia's not talking Ms. Organa who died in ANH. If taht was whom she was talking about she must have had one heck of a mother-daughter relationship. And why would Ms. ORgana be sad? Padme is the one she's talking about.

captainmidnight
but according to the films there isnt no mrs. organa,you can believe what you want and i know my post was harsh but i was just trying to help you understand that part of the movie a little better,it is hard to follow becouse we the audience dont know to much of leias past....

snuckleman
Mrs. Organa would be sad cause the galaxy has gone to shit and maybe Bail dies in ep3. But who says here mother was killed in ANH? No one on Alderaan is mentioned. No where is it mentioned that bail or his wife were killed in ANH. Plus I'm assuming Bail had a wife, which he might not of. Anyway, I'm just trying to make sense of it, if indeed Leia was talking about Padme, cause there's no way she would remember Padme if Padme dies in ep3.

PVS
^^^
you're reaching way too far.
i know it makes no sense for her to be talking about padme,
but she IS talking about padme.

captainmidnight
its gonna be hard to make sense of it when your lieing to yourself by saying its mrs organa,its mrs organa, its gotta be mrs organa becouse padme dies in ep 3,believe it or not man leia does in fact remember padme,its harsh but you'll get over it....

queeq
It's not confirmed that Padme dies in ROTS. And Leia IS talking about PAdme.

PVS
what would be the point of that scene if leia was talking about her adoptive mother, after luke asked "your REAL mother".
he was just trying to get some information on his mother,
not just play 20 questions with leia.

captainmidnight
but its gotta be mrs organa,its just gotta be..........LOL

PVS
it cannot be padme

the correct answer must be mrs organa

does not compute

does not compute

*sparks fly*

does not compute

*explodes*

Mr Zero
The point being - does Leia KNOW who her real mother was, does she know she was adopted?

captainmidnight
she remembers her real mother,i dont think adopted is the right word,but she was raised by organa.....

PVS
if leah did not know about her real mother,
why would she immediately accept that vader was her father?
why would she have "always known" that luke was her brother?
and, since organa didn't (speculation) die until alderan was destroyed,
why did leah only remember "just images"?
why would luke not say "organa is not your real mother"

i just think it would be far to complex of a plot addition for such a relatively superficial scene.

captainmidnight
dam......why is it when someone asks a question and you give them a true honest answer they still refuse to accept it,dam......i swear to god that some of these people in here are responsible for killing jesus!!!!

vergere
Lucas has too many things to explain... no time for this one.

I think he'll play it simple: on one hand he'll show us baby-leia looking at padme in a very intense way, right after the birth or later (an image she'll never forget maybe because she's force sensitive); on the other hand, luke will never see padme.

Padme's death... no sure about it. What about hiding with Yoda in Dagobah? (nonsense is allowed? embarrasment )

PVS
dogobah is a giant swamp, full of life.
life creates the force.
so dagobah was the ideal place to hide such
a powerful jedi master from the emporer.

Mr Zero
Not necessarily.

whitewookie
plus the influence of the dead dark jedi in the cave from ESB!! But thats a whole different bunch of bananas!

Darth_Duffy
not sure what you're talking about? unless its something to do with him facing a sort of 'ghost' vader?

whitewookie
yep!! It was due to a dark jedi having died there, very powerful one, and it masked out the presence of yoda due to the dark side aura wink. Its touched on in several of the books. And yes, it was the cave with the ghost vader!

Darth_Duffy
are we talking EU here? if so im bound to be lost because ive never taken much notice of it as ive heard it said that it doesnt have any relevance to lucas' vision of star wars

Morridini
The thing about the Dark Side tree hiding Yoda is EU yes.
Luke came up with that theory in teh book Heir to the Empire, if not the theory had allready been thought of in some of the comic books before.

whitewookie
Yes it is from the EU. Although all EU material has to be approved by Lucas before it is published, so therefore is at least partly "lucas vision" orientated.

ALSO:

YODA: That place...is strong with the dark side of the Force. A domain of evil it is. In you must go.

Straights from the film, so my guess is that little bit of fact is actually part of Lucas' vision but not been touched on intamatly in the ESB.
But were getting off topic!!

PVS
well, we are going into EU here.

i only state the dagobah theory, because it makes sense from the dialogue.

"life creates it, makes it grow"
and the fact that luke picks up "massive life form readings"

and dagobah IS a swamp, i cant believe someone would argue that.

as far as the cave, im afraid it will never be explained.
perhaps its just a natural phenomenon that certain places be
strong with the dark side? who knows...nobody ever will unfortunately.

Mr Zero
Ignoring for a second the fact that the swamp may be a manifestation of the confusion the luke brings with him.... dagobah is a planet. Saying it's a swamp is like saying earth is a barren lifeless rock because you happen to be in the desert.

IF the way we see it is the way it actually is, (which is by no means certain) the supposition that it's all 100% swamp - just because it has no signs of habitation - is still ludicrous.

PVS
that is the GL style mrzero.

its not accurate to science, where a habitibal
planet has different climates and ecoshperes.

tatooine is a desert planet
hoth is an ice planet
camino is a water planet
mustafar is a volcano planet
and yes, dagobah is a swamp planet

its just lucas's style

vergere
ESB--> LUKE: "Still...there's something familiar about this place. I feel
like...I don't know..."

Padme's presence some time ago? confused

captainmidnight
mabey he senses yoda?

PVS
through the force, many things you will see.
luke could have just had a premonition.
"its like...something out of a dream..."

maybe it in fact was

Ushgarak
It is incredibly simple. If Leia did not know she was adopted, she would have said:

"What do you mean, my REAL mother?"

The scene, to anyone with any sense, is talking about her real mother as opposed to her adopted one. That is its very purpose.

And indeed Zero- in Star Wars logic, planets are one thing or another; they make no logical sense.

queeq
They make no sense because SW is simple.

And stop the EU please. wink

Mr Zero
Well in my nerdy corner of the universe its generally accepted that the area of Dagoba Luke is in looks like a swamp as a reflection of luke. It is not a "swamp planet" - Hence the line you quote above. It has the ability to produce outward manifestation of inner feelings or turmoil. it's like a dreamscape. (This effect also producing the vader dopleganger.)

It's always seemed obvious to me... and nothing i've read here changes my view.

PVS
i like the theory zero,
but i cant buy it.

that would mean that dagobah is the lsd planet...
you have to go into it with good vibes, or you're
in for a bad trip laughing out loud

Mr Zero
Fair enough: Whats your explanation for the fact that the whole place seems weird and dreamlike to luke?

PVS
my thoery touches on your theory, but i still think dogobah is a swamp...

i think that dagobah is simply strong with the force.
and since luke is so attuned to the force, it affects him.
i assume this based on yoda's line on how life creates the force
and makes it grow. that and the fact that luke picks up massive
life form readings.

i would think that it could make a force user with lack of control....'drunk
with the force' you might say.

so i agree that luke was hallucinating, when he saw the phantom vader.
when luke say's whats in there, yoda says "only what you take with you"
luke took with him his fear and anger along with his weapons.
that fear and anger manifested into the phantom vader.

as far as the dark side cave, i subscribe to the theory that
there is a light and dark side to the actual force, like night and day.
others think that the force is only one energy field and that it is up
to the user whether it be good or evil. but like i said, i think there is an
actual tangible darkside. i think that the lightside and darkside cannot exist
without eachother...somewhat similar to yin and yang.

anyway, with that said, since dagobah is so rich with the force,
perhaps pockets of high concentration of the dark side would be
a natural phenomenon. perhaps there was no dark jedi, just a naturally
occuring dark spot on the planet...

luke felt it before yoda suggested anything "i feel cold"

unless yoda was just manipulating the whole thing, and it was
just a regular cave...which is also possible i guess

PVS
i doubt we will ever know the real answer anyway.
GL says that dagobah was already explained and he's done with it.
HE probably cant even figure it out!

queeq
Maybe Yoda takes Luke with him in EPIII, while OB1 brings Leia to Alderaan, to safety. And then picks him up on the way to Tatooine. A lot of shoeleather for ROTS, but you never know with GL these days.

PVS
yeah, that would be alot of time devoted to the good guys
playing "musical planets"

queeq
And maybe the occasional dance?

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