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Does Obi-Wan know about Leia? Think about it. In ESB when luke is leaving Dagobah Obi says "that boy is our last hope.". Yoda said "No there is another." this implies that Obi doesn't know about Leia....

Any thoughts?

Does he not mean Darth, because he's the one who actually kills the emperior

he knows about leia because in a new hope he knows who the girl is talking on R2D2's holagram

Could he know Leia as Leia Organa and just not know her connection to Luke and Ani?

doesn't make much sense though does it

it could just be that obi-wan was not counting leia as an asset for a victory against the emperor and vader.

In ANH Obi-Wan never said that he knew who she was. She introduced herself at the beginning of the message. I am wondering if Leia was born after Obi- Wan takes Luke from the room? Guess we will have to wait and see.

To the best of my thinking I don't think Vader knows the twins were ever born. I think he thinks they died with Padme. That hints at the newly added dialog in ESB between Vader and the Emperor.

he new of her because in return of jedi he said she is your twin sister luke so hide your feelings or something like that he probibley will look at her before he and baby luke escape to tatooine.

Clearly Yoda didn't mean Vader. That would bee too subtle to catch attention. He was refering to Leia, setting up ROTJ.

In ROTJ he knew because Yoda told him after luke left Dagobah in ESB. You don't think Obi-Wan questioned Yoda when he said "there is another."?

Of course he knows, he's her father.

Obi-Wan could be thinking that Leia is not force-strong, but I doubt it.

Obi-Wan is not Leia's father.......??????????

Um guys. I don't know about you, but I figure once someone becomes one with the Force, that they get a lot of understanding. Probably the moment OB1 dies he becomes a whole lot more informed about what's happening around the galaxy. Call it an omniscience if you will. Otherwise, how would he know Luke was on Hoth even? It's not like the rebels sent Ghost-Ben a telegram. So, he knows that Leia is Luke's sis. But she most certainly has not been trained. And he knows if Luke fails that Vader will probably find out about Leia and hunt her down and kill her before she has a chance to be a threat.
But Yoda is a little more optimistic than Ben. Plus, Yoda was talking about me.

Of course.

Yes he is.

"help us darth vader, you're our only hope."

Mr Zero, Please.... this is a serious discussion.

Anakin of course is Leia's dad

Im serious. Obi-wan is luke and leias dad. End . of. Story.

Then why does he think Luke is there only hope?

Explain Zero

Cuz he's a sexist and doesn't believe women should be Jedis.

Come on! You know thats not true. there are plenty of female jedi

Yes, explain this new information that only surfaced until now and must have slipped George Lucas' mind.

if you recall in ROTJ, When luke is hiding under the throne room and Luke begins thinking of, Vader says "Your feelings are strong, especially for sister, so you have a twin sister, Obi-wan was wise to hide her from me "

That doesn't mean Obi-Wan was their father.

zero you crack me up

That is a good point. I still dont know why Obi-Wan thinks Luke is there last hope.

Yoda just keeps them around as sex slaves.

Again! This is a serious discussion.

It is? Like life and death serious? Like someone could discover the cure for cancer by discussing this or any other myriad of stupid details in a MOVIE?
Sorry. I'll take my sense of humor and ability to enjoy elsewhere.
Where should I tell the Nobel guys to send your prize and check?

It didn't slip georges mind - he has placed hints about this all the way through the movies.

Near the end of ROTJ when Vader, Luke and the Emperor are all facing off the Emp comments on Lukes new saber

"Ah, yes, a Jedi's weapon. Much like your father's."

And then catches himself and makes a deliberate reversal save by saying something about vader and the dark side and how your father can now never be turned, but it's just waffle and bluff (and sounds like it - he's thinking on his feet...

Because if you look at Lukes Saber in ROTJ - it doesn't resemble Vaders Saber at all - it's "Much like his fathers" IE Obi-Wans (which it is indeed the dead spit of.)

Y'all believe that Leia could be the offspring of whineykin if you like - I for one think someone with balls that big has to be the daughter of obi.

because

a) Leia hasn't had any training and
b) it's what writers like to refer to as a "plot device" - it kept us wondering and talking about it for YEARS...

Luke was given Anakins Saber at the beginning of ANH. Also why would Lucas be stating these facts behind the scenes

You're all wrong. Luke and Leia are Jar-Jar's children. And Jar-Jar is the lost hope that Yoda speaks of.



^^^ Deadly Serious. No fun or joking allowed!

When Obi-Wan was killed on the first death star, he lost his saber. when Luke lost his hsnd in ESB, he lost his. What saber did he have to base his own on? There is no way that he could have made a saber to look like eather Vaders or Obi-wans. The Emperor was generalizing. All sabers are much alike.

And yet he DID make a saber that is almost exactly like obi wans and NOTHING like vaders.

You wait - the reason Obi and Whineykin mix it up in the next movie is because whineykin finds out Obi knocked up his wife... you heard it here first.

You have absolutly no proof of this. It is absurd to even go any further with this. The fact bolster my point. There are no facts to support you claim.

if you're referring to 'mr zero' im sincerely hoping his tongue was firmly in his cheek as he posted

He has gotta be joking! Thats the only thing I can figure
this thread has gotten too far off track.

There! Back on track

What the hell ever! I want some actual proof of this claim.

OKAY......someone in this forum said it already,ben is a ghost so leia would not be able to see him in order to train,yoda is old and barely capable of teaching luke what he can about the force,when ben said "that boy is our only hope"ben was taking in consideration that yoda would be to old to teach the force to "an other",but yoda quickly states that "no there is an other"by saying this yoda is really saying he would do his best to teach the force to "an other",referring to leia........

Captain, that is reaching and a little far fetched don't you think?

Arahael, this zero guy cant be serious

I can only hope

i dont know ...........

I just think that that is a little too much to just imply.
I like your thought process though and I could be wrong. My feelings are that Luke will be given to Obi-Wan after the births and he will not be made aware of his twin sister. As far as the force making Obi all knowing, that could be true but the force could be protecting Leia from Vader as well.

there is alot of babbleing in my post i agree, i dont know... i would like to think ben is unaware of leia until yoda explains it to him in ESB, i dont think the force is protecting leia from vader though,in a way luke protects leia from vader by confronting him and bringing out the good in him so she would have no reason to fear her father.....

Of course Ben knows. The answer is the simple one already said several times- he just didn't think Leia was going to be able to help in time, having had no training at all, and let's be clear here, she wouldn't.

Of course, this situation was more fluid when ESB was written, because at that point Leia was not necessarily the sister.

But lukes feelings betray Leia to Vader. I just think there is more to this than can be explained at this point. Thanks for the insite though!

Nah, it's simple.

Leia has allways been considered his sister, even from the begining. Watch the 4th disc (Empire of dreams) lucas started with the idea of twins.

However, with that said you are probably right. I just can't wait to find out! Holding my breath till then!

By the way Ushgarak. Hi from the USA!

I'm sorry, JJ, but you are wrong, as Gary Kurtz (Producer) has previously revealed. Yes twins... but not NECESSARILY Leia as the sister... the original outlines for Episodes VII, VIII and IX involved the search for the (non-Leia) sister. In the end, they took the simple option.

Err... hi...

Sorry did'nt see that part. Good point!

George kept his options open on a lot of things, so that ESB convo couldn't hammer anything down even if he had wanted to. If they have gone for the sequel trilogy non-Leia option, Obi-Wan might have known a lot less.

True

i think if ben was aware that luke had a sister,we as the audience in ANH would have been given a gesture,like the expression on his face when ben was discussing to luke who his father was,in my opinion ben was unaware of leia until yoda explained to him what had happened......

I did just explain why there was no earlier indication, captain.

As if, btw, Bail Organa never let his friend Obi-Wan know... as if this wasn't all happening at the same time in Ep III!

So many unanswered questions.

thats the best i can do JJ.......

Thanks captain. We will just have to wait and see.

so let me get this straight,bail never told obi-wan about leia, this would indicate that obi-wan was UNAWARE of leia,but a few posts earlier you said obi-wan was aware,what do you mean USH,what are you saying EXACTLY.......

how is anybody going to be able to answer that until we see EP3???
its not really worth getting to deeply into it as nobody here knows for sure as yet

My point, as should be rather obvious, is that Organa WOULD have told Obi-Wan...

I agree. I just thought it was an interesting question.

Obi Wan goes into seclusion after he delivers Luke to the Lars homestead. he loses contact with everyone to hide from the purge.
He probably didn't even talk to Organa.

WOULDA COULDA SHOULDA.....

????????????

If you think about ep. 4-6, Vader never mentions Yoda. He assumes he learned everything from Kenobi. Vader must think that a) Yoda died, cause he was old as dirt or died in the massacre of jedi's or b) there was no way for Luke to discover anything about Yoda.

So, anything Vader has to say regarding Obi-Wan simply comes from his lack of knowledge about Luke's relationship to Yoda.

As far as ESB....I honestly believe that Kenobi doesn't know about Leia, and that after Yoda's little ominous statement, Kenobi asks him about it, and then reveals it to Luke in RotJ.

Thoughts?

dude thats exactly what i think...that line when vader says "obi-wan was wise to hide her from me"yeah you hit that on the head too,as far as vader is concerned it was ben becouse after anakin falls into lava he doesnt have a clue what happened to the remaining jedi,he believes ben was the only one left,and responsible for training luke........

I think it is almost impossible for Obi-Wan not to know about Leia. And Obi-Wan went into seclusion AFTER the events of the Twin's birth. If you are saying that Obi-Wan and Organa never talked from the time Obi-Wan got his hands on Luke onwards, presumably running off 30 seconds before Leia was born... then how the heck did Organa know where Obi-Wan was???

No, tje situation was this. The good guys end up after the main events of Episode III in custody of the two twins. Kenobi and Organa decide it is wise to split the twins up for safety. Obi-Wan agrees to take Luke, and Organa hangs onto Leia, and the two of them part, with Obi-Wan telling Organa where he will be, and the other way around being obvious,

dude your starting to sound like suttle,your saying one thing then saying another,you started out saying ben was aware of leia,then you say organa would have told ben about leia meaning what,that ben would have known about leia if he told him,well no shit,now your saying how the heck did organa know were obi-wan was...what..what the hell does that mean,i'm sorry your posts are not obvious in fact there completely vague,you wanna know what happens,yoda,organa,and ben arrive on tatooine with luke,the ship takes off,padme then proceeds to give birth to leia,that is why leia is raised by organa becouse the second chid was unexpected,that is why ben is UNAWARE of leia until ESB were yoda explains to him what happened after ben was dropped off on tatooine......

I have said the same thing all the way. Have the courtesy of reading my posts correctly; that is basic politeness we expect of everyone here.

And your situation is ridiculous- it involves Padme giving birth to Luke and then no-one knowing she has a twin still in there; that is totally absurd. They'd know that months before the birth, let alone at the time itself. Use some common sense.

the pregnancy has been kept a secret,padme does not know there are twins and neither does anyone else,once she starts the labor the ship lands on tatooine,luke is given to the lars family by ben,while departure she gives birth to leia,that is why yoda knows of an other and that is why leia is raised by organa,you should take your own advice and read your posts there,becouse you'll find that you did contradict yourself....MODERATOR

obi-wan might not be present for the birth. If only Yoda is, he might not tell Obi because the less people that know the better, better in case Luke dies. But, as far as ESB goes, it certainly sounds like Obi doesn't know. Unless he's underestimating Leia, or if Lucas just through that line in for foreshadowing for the audience. In which case he's just reminding Obi, if Obi knows, which would be redundant. Based on the OT dialogue in ESB, it would very much seem Obi doesn't know. But again, we'll just have to wait and see. If Obi does know in III, it would seem odd to have that line in ESB.

Perhaps only Yoda is present, which would account for why Luke says there's something familiar about Dagobah, it would then mean Luke recognizes a feeling he's having, which is most likely Yoda's force "aura". Maybe only Yoda is present, he tells Bail there's only the daughter, and tells Obi-wan there's only the son. Then both not knowing of the other is benificial in case one of the twins is discovered too early or killed.

Obi-Wan knows Anakin and he knows what Darth Vader is. He knows that if there is even the tiniest bit of Anakin under the armor Luke would have a better chance of returning Anakin to the light. Leia would most likely remind him of painful memories of Padme and how she was against him in the end.
Luke however, is very much like Anakin when he was young. Impulsive, thrilled by adventure and they each wield an incredible power that makes it hard for them to be patient. I mean afterall it is Vader's love for his son that saves him in the end, and I think only Luke could have done it. If you notice, Luke never gives up hope on Vader, sure he gets pissed and chops his arm off, but Luke couldn't kill his father, and Vader as evil as he is, could never kill Luke.

but what does that have to do with ben not knowing of leia?

he's refering to why Luke was chosen to be the first choice to go against Vader and the Emperor. And I agree Nefarus, that was pretty sound logic there. Leia did seem rather disgusted with the whole Vader being Luke's father thing, mainly because she was a member of the senate and brought up by Bail, so she more than new of Vader's murderous and evil acts. Makes perfect sense.

Yoda and Obi wan are not interested in changeing Vader back They just want him defeated. Luke is the only one who thinks he can be turned.

Yoda tells Organa where Obi Wan is going (on his orders). this is how he knows where to find him in ANH.

You guys, Look! Its simple, the fact of the matter is we will not know untill the movie is released. Lets keep this a polite conversation between friends. We all have our opinions, lets just keep it nice.

OK so the way I see it, the children are born AFTER Padme is dead this explaines the long time frame between births. Luke is born first, Obi Wan, Yoda and everyone present think that he is the only one. After Obi Wan leaves with baby Luke They figure out there is a second child. This one being who else but Leia. She is then handed over to Bail Organa.

Thats just the way I amagine it. I could be wrong.

yeah...i didnt mean to drag it out but ush was going back and forth so much,you would of thought he was super shadow

Holy run on sentence Batman.

As far as Padme dying before giving birth. That can't happen. Leia remembers her mother.

Luke "Do you remember your mother?"
Leia "Only images really. She always seemed sad."

That's paraphrasing, but check RotJ.

Or John Kerry!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just kidding USH

Very good point ryzak. SeeI told you I could be wrong.

I am sorry, but you are still mis-reading my posts. Read them again carefully; there is no contradiction.

Once she starts in labour, there is no way Obi-Wan cannot know there is another baby after Luke is born.

That's assuming he's in the ROOM when she has them. Which is not like you to assume Ush. Until we find out who's actually present in the room, we don't know for sure who knows. And as far as the FILMS are concerned, it certainly sounds like Obi-wan doesn't know. I believe only Yoda is present. But again, we don't know until we get more information.

He would actively have to not see Padme before AND after the birth for that to happen, meph. You cannot give birth to one twin and then kind of hang around with the other there with no-one noticing. The assumption that he somehow manages to miss the fact she has twins is by far the greater.

And who does he think Leia is? He KNOWS Organa does not have a daughter that age.

Added to which it is still looking possible that Padme dies in advance of all this anyway, in which case both Obi-Wan and Anakin take the Twins and go their separate ways AFTER communicating (else ORgana would not know wehere Ben was, as stated above).

Frankly I need a damn good reason- 1000 times better than that ESB line- to think for a moment that Obi-Wan did not know. The ONLY way in which it works that Obi-Wan does not know is if Padme somehow gives birth to one twin, does not talk to Obi-Wan at all at that point after giving him Luke to look after, and nor does anyone else notice or tell him, and then heads away- still in labour- from Tatooine and then gives birth to the other twin and no-one bothers to get a message to Ben. It;s a stretch, a LONG stretch, and I do not believe it for a moment without backing.

It's not that big of a stretch, Who is to say that he is going to receive Luke from Padme? How do we know Padme is going to be conscious? Couldn't the twins be separated before Obi-Wan gets Luke? The identity of the twins could be so top secret that not even Obi Wan is told of the other. I really don't think that Obi-Wan will know of Leia. Things are going to happen really fast and I think in the rush Obi Wan will leave with Luke Immediately, not waiting to see if there is another.

I sent this question in to "Ask the Master" in the insider mag. hopefully we can get an official answer.

cool idea JJ....but i'm leaning towards obi not knowing until ESB!!!!

Same here, we will just have to wait and see.

i think that obiwan felt that luke was the only hope.
luke was the one who could bridge the gap between
anakin and vader. leia grew up as a wealthy princess, while luke
grew up as a tatooine commoner. who would vader relate to more?
luke is governed by the same passions as his father,
his parent(s) were senselessly murdered like his father's,
and he shares his father's talents as well, for example. starpiloting.
i dont recall leia being much of a pilot.

point im making is, it didnt matter who was the more powerful twin.
what mattered was who could bring anakin back to the good side.
who could appeal to him and make him realise the right choice.

when luke struck down the phantom vader, he saw himself in the mask.
i am sure that vader saw a reflection of himself in luke, as he fought him.
i honestly think that is what brought vader back, seeing himself in his son.
just as in the end, luke saw himself in vader, which kept him from striking
his father down.

so its not a sexist thing. its just that luke and anakin are almost identical.
for vader, to kill leia would be to kill his daughter.
but to kill luke would be to kill his son, and himself.

i think obiwan knew all along about leia.
yoda had faith that leia could pick up the task if luke failed.
and why?

because leia could appeal to LUKE.
if luke had failed, vader would be dead, and luke would
be the new darth. thus leia would be the new(er) hope

perhaps ben just felt that if luke turned evil, there would be no more hope.

But were they really concerned with bringing Anakin back? Seems to me that they wrote him off long ago. Obi Wan and Yoda Seemed to want to keep his fathers identity a secret. Compassion for his son triggered by the spark of good in Vader is what ultimately brought him back.

well, notice how neither obi or yoda say "kill him" directly.
(this is a whole other topic, of which i have seen MONSTER size threads)

the closest either say is when luke says "i cant kill my own father" and
kenobi says "then the emporer has already won"
other than that, there is no talk of killing him.

vader "obiwan once thought as you do"
what if obiwan never stopped thinking that?

remember that obiwan never tells luke what to do,
and he never gives him the answers. "you must do what you feel
is right of coarse." at no point is luke given any orders.
they suggest, but they dont demand.

see, otherwise my problem is this:

1-they know anakin is the all powerful chosen one
2-they know that palpatine is the most powerful dark force, besides vader.
3-luke is inexperienced, as powerful as he is

so, did they really expect luke to be able to kill vader and the emporer single handed? (hehe...unintended funny) if they wanted to simply bum-rush the throne, why not train leia as well...two lightsabers are better than one, right?
i dont think they sent luke in alone, to kill the chosen one.

i think ben knew that anakin was the only one powerful enough to kill sidious.
yoda, i think, had faith that luke could have the power to do so as well.
as much as yoda b!tches at luke, just look as his face when luke manages
to lift his xwing with such limited training. his eyes damn near popped out of
his head. he could not show his amazement to luke though, as it would feed his ego...which is bad.

so i believe that they at least HOPED that vader could be turned.
i think ben had no faith that luke could kill the emporer...only anakin, only the chosen one.
whereas yoda felt that even if luke were to fail, with the help of his sister he could still have the power to turn back to the good side and do the deed.

imho anyway

damn....didnt realised i typed so much
sorry

I agree, that could be the explanation of the line. Lucas called the line a "little gimmick, but it works" in the ESB commentary track. The line about 'no there is another" was basically put in for foreshadowing. Honestly, based on what we know of who's on the ship when the twins are born, it does become hard to believe Ben doesn't know, I mean, he could be somewhere else in the ship. Who knows? I know Lucas used the line as foreshadowing, but maybe Yoda is gonna keep it a secret from Ben for security purposes. This is just one of those issues I feel its pointless to speculate on because the only evidence we have was a quick line written twenty some odd years ago by a writer purely for foreshadowing. So who knows... That's why I find it funny people have such strong opinions on this one way or another when there is really very little evidence either way. Sure a person may feel its ridiculous that he doesn't know, since we haven't seen ROTS and don't know how Lucas will explain it. But at the same time, there's nothing really supporting he doesn't know other than one line. For all we know, Lucas may try to keep Leia a secret so the ROTJ revelation of who she is stays intact. Now I don't think that's a good idea, I'm just pointing out how many ways this could go, and that because of that, we shouldn't be so boldly opinionated in this matter. PVS, your analysis is the best I've seen yet. It could end up being one of those point of view moments Lucas is famous for.

Can we all agree to end this thread now? we surly will not have an answer to the question untill the movie comes out.

AGREED!!!

I am afraid I seriously doubt PVS' theory is the case. It is made very thematically clear in the films that Yoda and Obi-Wan expect Luke to DEFEAT the evil.

But, as part of Lucas' Hero's Journey thing, it is Luke- and Luke ALONE- who works out there is another way, contrary to the more cynical opinion of Obi-Wan on the matter (who had presumably already tried and failed, hence the line 'Obi-Wan once thought as you do.".

That was Luke's triumphal reasoning, and I an very unsteady about thinking the others thought it as well.

Obi-Wan is very clear both to Luke and the audience- he thinks that if Luke cannot kill Vader, the Emperor has already won.

this is a pointless arguement because both sides have nothing to back up they're arguments other than "well I think Obi-wan and yoda would do this...." "no I think they'd do this..." It's all pointless since we have NOTHING TO GO ON other than our own opinions. There may end up being more factors than we're even considering, and Ush, you presume to argue someone else is wrong in a purely hypothetical arguement? For shame.....

please, this is pointless, just close it already....

Yes let's let this thread die! It's been a good thread... I'll miss it when it's gone......SOB, SOB.

Obi-Wan knows about Leia (of course), but I suspect he planned around Luke being the one who'd get the job done because he thought Vader would be reminded of himself. Maybe Obi thought that would be enough distraction for Luke to finish him off. In the end, that's partly what happened along with Vader remembering his inability to save his mother. The difference is that Obi didn't think there was anything left of the person he'd trained but Luke did.

Just Let It GO Man..... It Will Be OK.

Err, excuse me thanks, but myself or queeq will decide when threads need to close.

And PVS made a fair argument, so I made a fair counter-argument. It;s hardly an issue. Feel free to stay out the thread if you want.

Ush i didn't mean to make you mad but it is old. many people agree.

what fun would this forum be if all arguements were settled?
sure, its all speculation, and ultimately ush will never prove me wrong
as i cant prove him wrong, but its still cool to get everyone's theories.

Then they are welcome to simply stay clear. If the thread is truly defunct, it will die of its own accord- which is far more likely to happen if people don't keep bumping it up by asking for its closure.

I apoligise if I stepped on any toes here. True it is fun to debate the issue.

ush, i agree that the events of the OT were based on luke's decisions.
if it was all mapped out by yoda and ben, luke would be just a puppet.

perhaps ben and yoda never FULLY gave up hope in vader/anakin.
they never said that he can be saved, but they never tell luke that its a fact
that he can't. and anyway, regardless of what they said, they always urge luke to make his own decisions.

they help and suggest, but never give orders.
as we see in the PT, they both had no problem giving solid direct orders.
so why are they so lenient with luke? could it be that they realized how bad
they screwed up with anakin and that they really didnt have the right answers for luke?

as far as ben's line "then the emporer has already won" i think he
was commenting on luke's lack of conviction. luke had a bad attitude
when ben visited him...he said "i cant do it", meaning he didnt think he
could even face his father...bad attitude for a hero to have. i think kenobi
wants luke to be ABLE to attack vader if necessary, which luke did.
after all, if luke was unable to fight vader, ROTJ would not have had a happy ending...so ben was kinda right...from a certain POV

Ah, the infamous POV.....

I suspect Ben's plan being based around Luke was intentional.
Or Kenobi's dislike of politicians caused him to think that Leia couldn't get the job done.....

Here is the Official answer to this Question. Insider's Ask the Master section responded to my question in there latest issue #79.

Q: (Read first post on this thread)

A: As you will find out in Episode III, Obi-Wan is fully aware of Leia's existence. His gloomy statement has more to do with the faith he had put in Luke. Knowing Leia's strengths in the political arenas, he had profound doubts about her abilities to become a Jedi capable of ending the Sith rule.

So there you have it. Straight from the horses mouth.

thumbsup

The OT trilogy will influence the PT in the matter of Obi-Wan knowing about Leia.

If Obi-Wan knows about Leia, wouldn't he want to have her near a jedi so she could be trained if nessecary? That's the whole point of Obi-Wan hiding on Tatooine. If Vader comes for Luke he can protect him and teach him in the ways of the force. Otherwise wouldn't it make sense for Obi-Wan to hide on another planet so if he is discovered Luke's presence isn't felt as well?

Wouldn't he want both of the twins to be protected and trained by jedi? How could Leia ever defeat or turn Vader if she has no idea of her power and has no training whatsoever? Since we know Leia is taken by Bail it would make sense that Obi-Wan didn't know, if he was willing to risk Luke by being on the same planet as him so he could train him wouldn't he have Leia taken there too?

We have an OFFICIAL answer, straight from SW Insider. Mods can close this one if they want. Its been a good one but with this OFFICIAL answer I don't see any reason to debate it any further.

Since when did GL care for official answers?

GL GAVE the official answer.

Dude we have an official answer to this question. Can a mod close this thread please?

Closing on the request of jedijunky1138.