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Its mind boggling to me, so why?

There is no god?

I take it you are religious HiddenPotential. Well I've said it before and I'll say it again, I'm an atheist because I have no reason to believe any god exists. If he/she/it were to appear before me, things would change. There is nothing in the world that suggests the existence of a god, anyone who's honest with themselves should be able to see that.

that's very individual. some people may choose to explain things within themselves as a 'touch of the divine'. if that's what they believe, that there's something watching over them and interferring with their lives, there's nothing to disprove that either. that's why it's called believing. and I guess that's also why I think religion should be kept a personal matter, not to be taken out on others or mingled with politics.

oh atheistism is mind boggling, but that something hidden in the sky is a master of all creation with a son who walked on water, raised the dead, cured the blind,resurrected himself from the dead aint

I think his mind is boggled from the years of having religous BS shoved down his throat....zing..... Yeah the idea that this is it scares people, esp when they really find out how fucted up we've made the world, they'd rather believe in cloudy castle in the sky with a kind, merciful, god so they dont have to face reality that life sucks here and we dont go anywhere afterwards

I' m not an atheist. I' m an agnostic atheist

Hell yes.

not BS, but facts that convince me,
I dont see perfect atmosphere, perfect distance from the sun, a moon that perfectly pulles the tides and clenses intself,etc, just to be mere coincidences.

lets say if God did send Jesus to pay you a personal visit, how would you answer his question of why didnt you read the bible?

oh and life sucks, I wonder why
remember that religious hypocrites brutally killed Jesus because he wanted to teach the world love.

also you would be singing a different tune all together if they wouldnt have killed the greatest man who has ever lived and lived by his teachings.

Religion was invented because man has a need to explain everything that goes on in the world whether they have the facts to explain it or not.
"The world is flat so we dont fall off" no the world is round the reason we dont fall of is b/c the mass of the plant creates gravity.
"How did humans get here, a Powerful being (a god) most have put us all here and maybe everything for us" no we are just a lucky by product of millions and millions and millions of years of evolution. If where not here then something else takes are place as the dominate species.

evolutionist aitheist

youve got this beautiful complex planet of PERFECT mechanics but no creator?

now thats crazy

why did God create Mars?

it's simply a planet with no life on it.... there are billions like it. and we are one in a billion

I think that's me

please be more specific.
i already know you dont believe in God.

Exactly!

I believe that something very intelligent created the universe.
But I dont believe in the bible or Jesus.

You should check it out

Jesus and the bible are very real proven facts of world history.

the bible is not proven facts. Most of it is complete BS. It's amazing anyone believes everything in the bible is true

I did read the Bible. The parts that weren't boring were appaling. Thousands of people murdered in the name of a "loving" God, hidious genocide commited in God's name, people tortured for eternity because God doesn't like the things they believe ... I don't need to justify myself to a demon like that.

I'm an atheist because I don't see any evidence for God. If you accepted mere existance as evidence--and it really isn't--it would be evidence for a Deistic, not Christian, god.

Well well, eloquent aren't we? If you knew anything about history you'd see most of the Bible's content and events were paralleled by substantiated historic events. It even made refrence to Ceaser being alive during the time of Christ and has many references to Egypt and Ethiopia. So don't go stabbing in the dark and making generalizations. You assume out of sheer ignorance that the Bible should be dismissed because contemporary society has become too full of itself. If you choose to believe its only "BS" go ahead you won't be the first nor the last to feel that way.

Yeh, that's because the Bible was written while all this was taken place. Sherlock Holmes has many factual details about London durring the 1900's and thereabouts, but that doesn't mean that Doyle's stories are an acceptable, proven historical source. No more so the Bible.

Mmm...that is true but that does not mean its fiction. The Bible is far too consistent to be deemed strictly a historical source. There were thousands of locales, generations and explanations taken into consideration. And in my opinion a sovereign and omnipitent figure sounds much more logical and probable than some big bang that iniciated existence. And if we evolved from apes as Darwin suggests why are there still apes around??? How come our ecosystem is perfectly balanced and our bodies so intricately designed? Do you think you, your family and ancestors are all results of a cosmic anomaly?? I think I was designed not regurgitated.

But in many ways, the Bible is not consistant. When does Jesus drive the money-changers from the temple? Is it at the beginning of his career (John) or the end (the other Gospels)? What is the name of the tax-collector Jesus dines with? Is it Matthew (Matthew) or Levi (Mark and Luke)?

That type of thing doesn't prove that the Biblical stories are false, of course. You can find sources that disagree about modern events that we know happen. But it does indicate that care must be taken if it is to be used as a historical source.

I'm not an evolution expert, but I can answer your question about why apes are still around. Basically, why shouldn't they be? Apes were a very wide-spread animal; one group of apes evolved into humans; this didn't make the other apes any less able to survive. As for are bodies, they're not, objectively speaking, that well-designed; we have an organ and a pair of teeth that don't do us any good and cause all end of trouble. But I think we shouldn't turn this into another evolution thread.

You are right. We did take things out of context. Religion and divinity are such hot button issues.

But I still think the Bible is consistent enough to be a true series of events.

I do not,
There cannot be a God. No way.

Its kinda hard for me to explain my thoughts so just go with me.
The concept of a god makes it impossible. Everything that was said about God MUSt be true. If I say God Wears purple pants and dances like a monkey, than it must be true. This is becaue if you deny it you imply that you know more about an inknowable thing than I do. Thats impossible. Theregore religion is hypocritical.

oh one more thing. You CANNOT use the bible as the only justification of God, that like using the Harry Potter books to prove the existance of Wizards and Harry Potter. It just don't work!

We know that a man by the name of Jesus existed, that he had many followers and that he was killed.

That's about it.

The rest is all filler.
The bible is laughably ridiculous!

...
Back to the god topic.

I think that 12 billion of years ago, "god" created the big bang and everything thereafter fell into place as by his design.

I believe that we're on our own. The creator chooses not to, or cannot interfere with anything. Meaning that he wrote his program and now it's running, no changes.

I have no idea why we're here, or if there is any meaning behind anything.
But I think as the human race advances maybe we can reach the point where we can "call god" and ask him ourselves!
Billions of years from now of course!

I think god is good. He's given us life and a beautiful planet. There's nothing like this happening anywhere else. There are no aliens, we're it.
We need to charish our planet and help eachother.
Stop wasting our time on prayers!

That's just my opinion.

Mmm...easier said than done.

I know.
But many people live their lives for a heaven that might not be there.
We need to make Earth as heavenly as possible.

Becasue when we die that's probably it.
No afterlife.

We can't make earth heaven. It's not possible. We are barely surviving as it is. Everyone thinks that there will be some magical juncture in the not so distance future that will make earth a utopia and its not coming. And I can't prove there is an afterlife and you can prove there isnt one.

Oh my GOD! It mentioned CAESAR?! It has to be true! Never mind the fact that this part could just as well have been added AFTER these events, or that the person who wrote it could have been making half of it up, this totally proves everything in the Bible!

If you knew anything about history, you would know that most of the Bible wasn't even written during or withing a short time of the events it describes. The Bible is great, you can go on and on about how convincing it seems by itself, but once you consider the aforementioned, and the fact that there are literally no references to Jesus in other historical texts of the time... Wellll that complicates things a bit doesn't it?

I am an atheist because I see nothing in this universe that cannot be explained without the presence of anything supernatural. I used to be very Christian, until I woke the hell up and realized that "god" had never once answered my prayers. I did every single goddamn thing you religious nuts tell me to do when I say "I don't believe in god", and none of it worked. So either god hates me, or he/she/it doesn't exist, at least as you portray it. Then I did some research on the actual history of the Bible, and well...

We didn't evolve "from" apes as you describe it. In fact, rarely ever do species evolve entirely into another species. Rather, some of them "break off" of the rest of the population, and each new species goes their separate way. Sometimes one of the two becomes extinct, sometimes they don't. We are far from perfect, as are all other organisms on this planet. "Functioning" and "perfect" are not synonyms, after all. There is a kind of locust which has a set of nerves that starts at the head, goes down to the end of the animal's abdomen, and then loops back up to its wings. There is no longer any need for these extra nerves, they merely take up space and use up valuable resources.

Our ecosystem is balanced because that's the way it evolved. If we were too close to the sun, or too far away, we would not exist at all. If there were a different mixture of gasses in the atmosphere, everything would work very differently, but rest assured that it would still work.

"There are no aliens, we're it."


This is, of course, pure speculation. It's almost mathmatically impossible for there NOT to be intelegent life somewhere out in the infinite reaches of space. I find it hard to believe that among the billions and billions of planets in space, there is not at least one other one with a civilization.

So instead of trying to make it better, seeing as its "impossible" you just sit around and wait for god to intervene.

You figure earth is just a pit stop on the way to heaven.

Earth will probably never be a utopia, but peace and harmony is not impossible. Religion itself is a major obstacle to peace.

Oh yeah, well Dracula's coming tonight!

The universe it unfathomably huge, I find it VERY hard to believe that we're the only intelligent life...hell, that we're the only life at all.

Why am I atheist? Well, I was raised Catholic, and used to be fairly religious. But, I am (and always have been) a very scientifically minded person, and I question EVERYTHING. I questioned pretty much everything in the Bible (and let me tell you, the other people in my church and my CCD teachers HATED me because of it), but of course no one could answer my questions. I began to question whether or not God existed, when finally -- when I was about 10 years old -- I decided that I did not believe that a God existed. And that is why I'm athiestic.

DR> adding on to yours. Humans are not made perfect. Appendixes and male nipples are an example of evolution. and that we are imperfect non god created beings.

So you assume that other than the gosples, no ancient writer mentions Jesus Christ.

Pontious Pilate, procurator of Judea who condemned Christ to death, wrote of those extraordinary activitys to Tiberius Caesar in an apparently well-known account that has been referred to by several other personages. One Christian apologist, some years later, writing to another Caesar, encouraged him to check with his own archives and discover from the report of Pontius Pilate that these things were true. In a long report, after describing the miracles of Christ, Pilate states: "And him Herod and Archelaus and Philip, Annas and Caiaphas, with all the people, delivered to me, making a great uproar against me that I should try him . I therefore ordered him to be crucified, having first scourged him, and having found no cause of evil accusations or deeds. And at the time he was crucified there was darkness all over the world, the sun being darkened at mid-day, and the stars appearing, but in them appearing no lustre; and the moon, as if turned into blood, failed in her light."

Another secular writer, Thallus, in A.D. 52, writes about the sun's failure to give light from noon until three o' clock and says this must have been due to an eclipse. However we know that Christ was crucified at the time of Passover, which was the time of a full moon, and there cannot be an eclipse of the sun at the time of a full moon. Yet this writer felt he must offer some naturalistic explanation for the phenomenon of the sun's ceasing to give it's light.

Among the secular historians and writers of antiquity who refer to Christ and Christianity are: Tacitus, the Roman historian; Suetonius; Pliny the younger; Epictetus; Lucian; Aristides; Galenus; Lampridius; Dio Cassius; Hinnerius; Linbanius; Ammianus; Marcellinus; Eunapius; Zosimus.
Others have written whole books against Christianity including Lucian, Celsus, Porphyry, Hierocles, and ajaulian the Apostate. Numerous others, including Jewish writers, have written about Jesus Christ.

So concluding the fact that you assume things.

You're assuming that god actually created man and woman in his vision on the spot. Arm here, leg there, nipple here, etc.

But what if evolution was part of his design?

Do you believe the big bang was just a chance happening?

Look at the world around you for a minute.
read some books from people who dedicated their lives to science and astronomy, and see what they say about the existance of God.
See what the Historians have to say about Jesus.
Read the new testament and really ponder on Jesus's teachings.
Find out why he died, and why He was killed by religious Hipocrites.
eternitys a long time to assume things

and this proves Jesus divinity how?

I think you're wrong about Pliny; he just mentions Christians. I'm pretty sure that most of the people you listed weren't even alive when Jesus was supposed to be; Tacticus wasn't, Galenus wasn't, Eunapis was way after Christ, as in, hundreds of years after, as was Zosimus, and Dio Cassius was over a hundred years after Christ. Hierocles was about 430AD. So, yeh, almost no contemporary sources at all. Not that it matters if a historical Jesus existes; he'd still just be another cult leader who mannaged to hit it big-time.

Should I care what Astronomers and scientists say? For the record, they are much less likely to be Christian than other groups, as are mathematicians.

I've read the Bible; lot of nonesense, as far as I'm concerned. If I was to convert to a religion, can you give me one good reason to choose Christianity over Buddhism, Hinduism, Judism, Islam, Satanism, or any of the other choices out there?

One OTHER ?

I'd be happy if I thought we had anything here we could boast of as civilised - but we don't.

Hidden - I've read all your posts from the last 2 days & assuming you haven't just signed on here to regurgitate the same old religious pap for a few days and then vanish..

If you are going to stick around, and are dedicated to making every post into a crusade about god and christ - some advice. . .

Some of the people here are very smart.
Some of them like to debate.
Some of them are open to a well constructed sentence that makes a valid point.

You are reaching exactly NONE of them.

Your whining posts are not going to make anyone think "HEY! thats RIGHT- I must go read the bible!!!" - Your tone is condescending and preachy, which *I* have no trouble with as long as it's EARNED - but it's obvious that you aren't reading and considering anything thats being said back to you...

If you are going to get anywhere with your one-man-mission - I'd advise you to make your points a little clearer and back them up with who/what/why... saying "people who study jesus say god DOES exist - so it's official" just makes you look like a loon.

thank you Mr Zero

Look, pal, I don't know who the hell you think you are telling me I assume things, but you are entirely wrong. I've done more research on this topic than you have, I promise. You're the one making assumptions. You assume that the Bible was written by people who lived in the same time period who had never met each other. You assume that I have done no research on this. You assume that everything in the Bible is to be taken literally. You assume that science is a load of crap, even though you clearly have not taken a thorough, open-minded look into it. And you apparently didn't read my previous posts.

I never said NOBODY other than the Bible talked about Jesus, obviously other people have written about Jesus. What I said was that the Bible is the only historical text that was written during and immediately after Christ's time. (with the exception of the gospels that were ommitted from the Bible because they did not serve the Roman's political needs, which again is proof that it is a load of propagandist bull designed to make you easier to control... well, the people who lived before you at least)

"Look at the world around you for a minute."
Done it more than you have.
"read some books from people who dedicated their lives to science and astronomy, and see what they say about the existance of God."
I don't see the point of this, but again, I've done more of it than you have.
"See what the Historians have to say about Jesus."
The only historians who talk about Jesus are the Christian ones, and therefore worth no more of my time than I have already wasted trying to interpret.
"Read the new testament and really ponder on Jesus's teachings."
I already told you I used to be Christian, so obviously I've done that. Moron.
"Find out why he died, and why He was killed by religious Hipocrites."
Same as above.
"eternitys a long time to assume things"
The same could be said of you. And don't tell me you have "nothing to lose", because this only proves that you believe in Christianity because of fear, and worship your supposedly merciful god because you don't want to go to hell. God hates cowards.

I'm a coward.
No, I wouldn't say I'm an atheist-but I definitely don't believe in Yahweh/Jehovah/Holy Trinity/Jesus.

First question:
That is the only possibility of divinity that I am willing to accept, but That is NOT the christian god. I read what you said about Religion, and accept THAT mroe than anything else, but I still am athiest. That Could be true, but I don't know, I can't know.

Second Question:
Omega answered that way better than I could, its 1 or 2 pages back in the evolution thread.

I do apologize for sounding condescending and preachy.
I will try to make my points more clear.

Atheism is usually the most care-free of "religions", as some call it, because people do not feel the pressure they'd have too in most religions:
Pray every day;
Don't Sin (AT ALL);
etc,.
etc,.
-The Valar hath spoken.

Atheism is not a religion. Atheism is the lack of religion.

An old weather-beaten and battle-weary woman approached me one day, she had been a junkie for years.. She told me that she was an agnostic. Just thought you might like to know

Hmm....you are right Darth Revan, but I know some pretty stupid people that call it a religion.
Hmm, Darth Revan, aren't you the one I told my religion too?
The one with Satan repenting?

Hey HP. I don't know what religious persuasion you are of, if any, but I think you are wrong if you believe this world or the rest of the universe is perfect. Think about all the planets showered in asteroids, as barren as deserts, completely devoid of life. Not to mention the fact that one day the sun will expand and implode completely destroying everything in its vicinity (including earth). Earth and the species living on it are an amazing fluke if anything to me and far from perfect.

I want to avoid arguing the issue of belief in god out of fear of judgement.

But yeah, given my point of view and what I've said, do you still find atheism or at least my atheism mind boggling?

HAHAHAAHaa!!!

I almost pissed my pants laughing. This is good shit..... Chirstians are funny people.

Yup, always good for a nice chuckle.

haha, you guys are so mean.

I love it. I laugh at Christans too!

I meant with...

Yep

Hmm....I see...

I am an Atheist because I choose to be what each person believes is there own damn business(no offence ment). I do not feel that there is a great plan for each of us as we do have free will. free will is an illusion if there is a great being governing all that we do, say and feel and if we are to be judged on it!!

I just can't feel comfortable with the whole christian religion forceing there beliefs on the rest of the world.

Well, I understand that many people have run across the typical hypocritical supposed christian's.

but, if they were indeed real christians they would not act hypocritical.

white eagle, The fact that other planets are being showered with space debri, makes me feel even more blessed not lucky.

Yeah so scientists say that the sun will implode and kill us all, and they are probably right. However I dont see that as a reason to disbelieve.

we will destroy the earth way before that happens anyway

Gregory, its sounds as though you read the new testament.
did you see that god changed his way with dealing with us unruly humans and introduce a new covenant through his son Jesus Christ.

How could anyone be angry with a God that gives his son to die for us undeserving people.

we didnt ask to be created but we were, and as much as we lie we are not and will never be in control in this life.

There is nothing negative thats come from the life of Jesus besides the false supposed followers of him.

Heh, your doing exactly what I told you not to.
Using the Bible as proof of the bible.

Were saying that God doesn't exist, And by attacking that part of your argument falls apart.

Your throing leaves at us, and instead of blocking each leaf individually we cut down the tree.

I don't know abut the rest of you, but I am an atheist because too much is taken forgranted over matters of religion.Wars are started and millions of innocent people are killed because they believe in this so called God.Percfect example-WWII.So, I choose to believe in nothing.Besides, if there truly was a god, why would he allow things like that to happen?Also I dont agree with alot of the things the bible suggest even.

white eagle, I see where you are coming from but you are focusing on inevitable negative things that could happen.

The things that have happened though that I find positive and imperative to life on this planet are-

-Perfect atmosphere, if it wasnt as thick as it is we would be crushed by the millions of pieces of cosmic debris, and meteorites that continually fall on this planet
-Perfect distance from the sun creating perfect heat absorption
-Perfect axis
-Perfect moon that pulles the tides, without it we couldnt live on this planet.
-Without the tides created by the moon, all our harbors and shore would become one stench pool of garbage, and it would be impossible to live anywhere near them.
-The tides aerate the ocean providing oxegen for the plankton, which is the very foundation of the food-chain of our world.
-Without the plankton there would not be oxygen, and man would not exist in this world.
-the moon is also perfectly sized and distanced from the sun, to perform these and numerous other functions.
-The amazing nitrogen cycle thats needed for plants. It get out of the air and into the soil through lightning, 100,000 lightning bolts strike this planet daily, creating a hundred million tons of usable plant food in the soil each year.
-Perfect ozone. Eight killer rays fall upon the earth continually from the sun, without the ozone we would be burned blinded and broiled by them.
If compressed the ozone would only be a quarter of an inch thick.
-Perfect clouds, covering 50 percent of the earth at any one time.
-Perfect water, I could go on and on about the cycle, but instead tell about something maybe you dont know. Bizmuth is the only other liquid that is heavier at 4 degrees celcius than it is at freezing. Meaning when its frozen its lighter and rises. If this were not so the lakes would freeze from the bottom up and kill all fish. The algae would be destroyed,

- and our oxygen supply would cease and mankind would die.
- Dust, without it it would never rain
-The human eye, Im getting tired Ill explain it further later if you want.

There are several good reasons to believe that this life isnt a chance happening.

Tptmanno1, yes i did.
Since you deny the existance of god.
I suppose you realize that atheism is irrational.

how is atheism irrational again? HP,everything you just posted sounds like your contridicting yourself.

I fail to see how atheism is irrational...

If when you talk about the eye, you intend to tell us that it's too complicated to evolve, don't bother--it's a BS claim that that's been refuted dozens of times. If "atheism is irrational" is a prelude to talking about how we can't prove that there's no God, so it's irrational to believe that there isn't one, bear in mind that you can't prove that I don't have a miniature dragon living in my freezer, either. So either fall on your knees and praise my freezer-dragon or don't use that argument.

true, and you keep referring to the bible, which was writen by men, so theres no telling whats credible and whats not.

Thank you Gregory

That statement was for Tptmanno1, so please dont everybody get upset.

To everything HP said,
That is why there is life on earth!
There is almost an infinite number of planets in the universe, yet there is life on this one. That is WHY there is life here, it is perfect. We are suited for life, and thus there is life.

Don't give me that our atmoshphere is perfect, so there must be a god bullshit. we adapted to our environment, early organisms thrived off the now noxious chemicals that were in our atmoshphere. They turned them (over a reallllly long period of time) made it to our specifications. We evolved to our environment, and we changed it to how we thrive. That is not god, thats science. High School level Bio.

Gregory, it seems to me that your religion is evolution.
In your opinion, how did we humans evolve, start at the beginning

Tpt >

If this planet was perfect because of God, then why was there no oxygen (which is essential for humans to survive, as everyone knows) in the atmosphere originally? It wasn't until photosynthetic bacteria evolved that there was oxygen in our atmosphere, and YES, there is evidence for this. (and btw, want to know where I learned that? My high school bio class...)

Science has evidence to back up their theories. Religion has nothing to back up it's beliefs.

oaky, using that same arguement, deosnt that mean that monotheism is irrational too?

and our atmosphere isnt perfect.

Exactly...how do you figure that believing in something you have NO evidence exists is rational?

My "religion" is evolution? Reread the thread, my friend. I've only even mentioned evolution twice--both times as a direct response to other people's questions. You're the one who keeps bringing it up. As for my opinion of how humans evolved, I'm not sure what you mean. Do you want a family tree? An explanation of the mechanism of evolution? I could probably dig up either of them (I already more or less know the second one), but I'm not an evolutionary scientist; I'm a math student. Why are you asking me?

he could be asking to stray away from the point, which is what it looks like to me.

Zelda Lestat
We have been given free will, to do as we please.
If god did stop everyone from doing all evil then we would not know the difference between good and bad and life would be meaningless.

you completely misunderstood what I was saying. When I was referring to WWII I wsa asking why he ddint save them.Why wuld he hvae let thousands of the innocent that worshipped him die and be tortured like they did.

If most parents were like god apparently is, they'd watch their five-year-old children put their hands on red-hot stove units and not do jack to stop them. Because, you know, free will and all that.

lol.thank you gregory.

What the hell does free will have to do with God, anyway? That's a crap excuse to explain why bad things still happen...

Good point, Gregory

i dont know. it seems to me that HP here is trying to steer away from the fact that nothing he's saying is credible.

Yeah really...people tend to do that when they can't back up anything they say.

Well, I guess you like being spoon-fed, manipulated and controlled.

I don't know abut the rest of you, but I am an atheist because too much is taken forgranted over matters of religion.Wars are started and millions of innocent people are killed because they believe in this so called God.Percfect example-WWII.So, I choose to believe in nothing.Besides, if there truly was a god, why would he allow things like that to happen?Also I dont agree with alot of the things the bible suggest even.

Misunderstood? Lets see-
"if there truly was a god, why would he allow things like that to happen?"

Gregory,
Yes exactly, He said dont eat of the tree in the garden or eden, but what did they do.

they did the exact same thing, all of us do, its in our nature.

By the way, humans created the stove, you cant use todays society as an example of how god originated law.

You're making the typical stupid creationist mistake, which is saying that these things are true because of us. This is totally untrue. Rather, it is quite the opposite--we exist because of these things. Yeah, if there were no plankton, there would be no humans, so what? What does that prove? Yeah, everything has a place in the world, but that place is not to help us live. If cows didn't exist we wouldn't eat beef. If plankton didn't exist we would either function differently or not at all. This in no way proves the existence of a God. Plants evolved to fit the conditions of the soil and the atmosphere--it's not like there's only one possible way they can function and by some miracle these exact conditions exist here.

And for the last time, life on earth is very far from perfect. Complex beyond comprehension, yes, but certainly not perfect. I already told you the example of the locusts, and you've given me no explanation for that. Another example of an imperfection in life is male "plumbing". Any intelligent being could have designed that better. Yet another is the existence of the "wolf tooth" in domestic horses. It is a relatively small, canine-type tooth which is in the approximate center of the gap between the horse's molars and incisors. They are typically removed once the horse is mature, as they cause a lot of problems--even if the horse is never ridden or worked.

Certainly I like being controlled. If people aren't controlled there's anarchy; people murdering each other in the street, looting, turning over cars. So the laws control us--but we still have freedom as long as we're not hurting others with our freedom. All I want God to do is take on the role of law-enforcement and keep us from ****ing each other up. Sure, I'd lose the "freedom" to steal and murder and rape; but you know what? Those freedoms aren't important to me.

Good point, but I have to say If God tried to interfere in the way we live our lives there would be a major insurrection. People obey laws out of fear not dissimilar to Christianity, which you just said you wished do to. So what's the use of being an athiest if you want an authorative figure who instructs you? Athiesm is more archaic because it absconds the idea of any supreme ruler or 'law enforcer". And don't forget Gregory not all freedoms that are legal are morally acceptable.

Posted by Darth Revan

"We didn't evolve "from" apes as you describe it. In fact, rarely ever do species evolve entirely into another species. Rather, some of them "break off" of the rest of the population, and each new species goes their separate way. Sometimes one of the two becomes extinct, sometimes they don't. We are far from perfect, as are all other organisms on this planet. "Functioning" and "perfect" are not synonyms, after all. There is a kind of locust which has a set of nerves that starts at the head, goes down to the end of the animal's abdomen, and then loops back up to its wings. There is no longer any need for these extra nerves, they merely take up space and use up valuable resources.

Our ecosystem is balanced because that's the way it evolved. If we were too close to the sun, or too far away, we would not exist at all. If there were a different mixture of gasses in the atmosphere, everything would work very differently, but rest assured that it would still work."


If anyone was to read this post, they would notice how you say we didnt evolve and then we did evolve. Its a very interesting mistake for someone who's so wise.

I wasn't thinking about obeying laws through fear; I was thinking of God making it so that it simply wouldn't occur to us to behave baddly to each other.

You have to make a distinction between what you want and what is. I might like it if there was some divine figure I could turn to in times of moral turmoil, so that I could always be sure of doing the right thing. Certainly, I wouldn't turn my nose up at immortal life. But I simply don't see any evidence that such a being exists. I do not want atheism to be correct; I simply think that it is (this isn't to say that I want Christianity to be true; I strongly disagree with Christianity on some moral points).

No, you're just mis-reading his post. What he's saying is that apes didn't directly evolve into humans, like so many people (mistakenly) believe. If this were so, there would be no apes on Earth. Instead, a group was broken off from the rest of the population, and this group, over time, evolved into the first humans.

Well you should have clarified the kind of freedom of you mentioned in the first place.

Exactly

And I never claimed I was wise. I don't know where you get that idea. Is it because I use big words and don't make very many typos/gramatical errors? cuz i can talk liket his if u want me 2.

Gregory,
what moral points do you dissagree with?

edited

Well, I don't think that homosexuality is wrong. I'm moderately pro-choice. I support assisted suicide. I disagree with certain churches (I'm thinking primarilly about Southern Baptists, here) about the "proper place" of women. I don't disaprove morally with premarital sex (although I think it's a bad idea, what with the risks of pregnancy and HIV). I don't like the idea that you can be a terrible person and then make it all better simply by confessing your sins and saying a few Hail Marys (although that's strictly Catholic, I suppose). On the other hand, I don't like the idea of people being eternally punished for their sins--no matter how terrible a person you are, there will come a point where you've paid for sins, and after that, it would be unjust to keep that person in Hell.

We're straying way off topic here, though.

We are aren't we? but few discussions ever remain neutral, particularly those about religion.

no, that is not what i meant, and I've already explained that.Trying to make me sound like the idiot here is not going to help you.

A primativce simian like creature that is now obviously extict because we eveoled from it and have thuse changed so so much that we are almost completly different from them externaly.

If this os gonna become an evolution discussion please take it into that thread so we can destroy you there. Thanks!

well its on topic, since those are reasons why you dont believe.
But yes this thread has gotten way to complex.
Its my fault for asking such a complex question.

Don't blame yourself, these forums are all about expressing your opinions. You've done nothing wrong.

Evolution is a belief.
The religion of the unbeliever.

No, evolution is a scientific theory with plenty of evidence to back it up.

Anyone who does not realize that evolution is a religion does not know much about evolution.

Professor Louis T. More, one of the most vocal evolutionists says, "The more one study Paleontology the more certain one becomes that evolution is based on faith alone."

you said it yourself, "theory"

ITS NOT A FRICKEN RELIGION! ITS A FACT!!!!!!!!!!! DAMMIT!
RELIGION IS FAITH BASED, EVOLUTION IS FACT BASED!!! NOT RELIGION!


there I put in caps, do you get it now!

I suggest you check the Evolution thread before you reply with evolution things again because most of wht you said has been addressed before!

It is a religion that is passionately held by its devotees.

Professor D.M.S. Watson, a famous evolutionist, made the remarkable observation that evolution itself is a theory universally accepted, "not because it has been observed to occur or can it be proved by logically coherent evidence to be true, but because the only alternative, special creation, is clearly incredible."

A famous British evolutionist, Sir Arthur Keith, is just frank in his admission. "evolution is unproved and unprovable. We believe it because the only alternative is special creation, which is unthinkable."

People accept evolution by blind faith.

why are you getting so angry Tpt, im just going by what evolutionist say

A scientific theory is something that has hard evidence to back it up. Religion is faith based on nothing. Evolution has hard evidence backing it up.

No its a religion, but there is a diffrence between the two

if evolution is right then the same thing happens to people who believe and disbelieve.

If there is a God then we either go to heaven or hell.

See, you're the one that doesn't seem the to understand the difference between scientific theory and religion.

And if we're going to argue this, could we at LEAST take it to the evolution thread? Because there IS a thread specifically for discussing this.

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CA/CA610.html

Here there is the EXACT link to why evolution is not a religion. any other evolutionist that you quoted is either off his rocker or some religios zelot parading around as an evolutionist. and if you do any more diggin on talkorigins (the site I linked) there is plenty of proof and exact, referenced answers to all your little questions.

Thank you DR

And Tpt who posted while I was posting

(note how we've repeatedly asked them to take the evo argument into the evo thread and they've refused...)

Boy, where do I know that word from.. faith... faith... oh yeah! Christianity! Hypocrite.

Come to think of it, you are even more of a hypocrite than I had originally thought--didn't you say earlier that Christians who are hypocrites aren't really Christian? Losing credibility very quickly, aren't we...

SS>Yeah, I did notice that.

I think they're scared of what'll happen once TO rips into them Someone should show her this thread...

yeah and it is called the nature of things

Yep, justice and fairness are human ideas. If you want to believe we all get what we deserve in the end because it makes you feel better, go ahead.

hehehe

You know who More is? Neither do I. That's because the only damn thing he seems to have done of any importance is say that sentance. The "most vocal evolutionist" says that he accepts evolution as a working hypothesis, and that's all. In other words, he appears to be a nobody in the field of evolution; why the hell do you think we should care what he says about it?

Not that it would matter if he was the most important evolutionist around; that still wouldn't make anything he said the truth. You see, in science, it's the facts that matter--not what people say. If Gould retracts the theory of evolution tommorow, it won't mean diddley-squat.

You go on to prove that you don't know what a scientific theory is. Thanks, but I'd pretty much already figured that you didn't.

the defintion of 'religion'according to Oxford Dictionary goes as follows: the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.OR a particular system of faith and worship.

Hidden Potential, evolution is not a religion.

particular system of faith

You guys blindly accept evolution as a factual proof that there isnt a god.
which means you believe it to be true, or you have faith in it.
Thats no diffrent than anyone who has faith in a religion to be true.

no I dont need evolution to tell me that, common sense to that.
, you belive in the logic and the facts that are provided, this leaves out faith
Religion makes you devoted to a system of faith and worship of some sort of god.
I believe in and have faith in the Norwegian judicial system, doesnt make it a religion though

You're just making this all up as you go along, aren't you? Admit it. Nobody in this thread said that evolution was proof for that there was no god; you're the one who brought it up in the first place. The Pope believes in evolution. Thousands of Protestants believe in evolution. Are you saying the Pope is an atheist? That Protestants are an atheist group? Your grasp on reality can't be that tenuous, can it?



I can play semantic games as well as the next person, but I'm not sure I'll bother. It's perfectly obvious to everybody on this thread--except you, apparently--that believing something because it's supported by evidence is not the same as believing something solely out of faith. Screaming "Evolution is a matter of faith" doesn't make it true, no matter how loudly you scream it, and no matter how many quotes you provide by people who agree with you.

ok, i just wanted to see what you guys feel about that claim.

Some religious people have compromised only because they think that science has proved evolution.

Evolutionist laugh at the idea that you can put eveolution and the bible together.

Do you not?

well I sure laugh of a lot of the bible.
I am no deist so I cant see any of the bible and evolution put together.

I was pushed out of a two-story window and fell on my back in a parking lot, and only got the wind knocked out of me. I should be dead but God saved me. Also, how can the world be where it is today by a random chain of accidents. Look around you.

I will state that I am a firm believer of seperation of church and state. I think atheists have every right to not be fed Christian/Jewish/Muslim/etc beliefs if they don't desire so.

thats why it is called evolution

I agree, man has evolved to adapt to his surroundings(Africans have darker skin to protect them from teh harsh heat and sun of the African Plaines whereas Scandinavian's have more body hair to keep them warmer in the harsg arctic climate, but don't think for a second I feel I am the "cousin" of an ape or monkey. I value people's opinions and honor everyone's views. However, true evolution makes its old ways die out and we still have monkeys and apes among us.

1. How many times must this be explained. Evolution is NOT when an entire species evolves. It is when a small population breaks off from a larger population and over time evolves into a new species. This is why we still have monkeys and apes.

2. There is a thread for discussing evolution...as has been pointed out MANY times...

Says who? People survive long falls all the time. You got lucky.

Hidden Potential: I suppose that the theory of evolution is inconsitant with a literal reading of the Book of Genisis. But Genisis is problomatic even without evolution; for example, it claims that God made man and woman at the same time, than later claims that God created the first woman from the first man's rib.

actually people from southern Europe and Arabia have more body hair than Scandinavians so............ it aint all logical

I know when I am in a fight I cannot win. I just pray for all atheists that they find reason in life, with or without God. Look at the Czech Republic, over 40% of them claim to be Atheists, yet it is a thriving country in the European Union. I feel non-believers can be just as happy as we other folk.

Do atheists believe they are truly here for a reason?

I for one am glad their are atheists, gives balance to the world and different viewpoints.

atheist and non believers aint actually leprous. Maybe "WE" are happier cause we dont get a guilt trip every time we curse.

I wonder how you really rank people that comes from a diffrent way of believing as you do, since you look uppon your self as we other folks like it is just "us and them"

Now why would atheist need a reason to be here, do christians believe they are here for a reason casue if they do I would love to know what reason that would be?

yes, finally someone brings up the life long question-Why are we here?

to ETK-why are you talkng about atheist and monotheist as if we were two separate species?

I got:
"So god created man in his own image;
He created him in the image of God;
He created them male and female. (Genesis 1:27)

The beginning of Genesis is a summary of creation. Then it goes on to focus on adam and eve more specifically and explains how man was made first, than woman from his rib.

I thought you liked the idea that woman is under man.

No, thats impossible.
They are a fluke inside a fluke.

And if not I would like to know the reason.

Wait ... what? I never said anything like that. Are you hallucinating or something?

That brings something else to mind, you know, about the bible not being able to prove it self? How is it possible to create anopther person from someones rib? Scientist have looked into and studied that intinsively and have found nothing to back that up.(just a question)

i am an atheist because nothing has convinced me that there is a god, and i believe that we are soley responsible for our actions, and can only make things happen for ourselves, not by praying or whatever religious people do. i think people just made up religion to explain what they couldnt find out before, but now that science is advancing and we can prove and disprove more and more, there are more atheists because they see this.

good point.

haha You said something about agreeing with the christian belief of where a womens place is. It was really a joke.

Nonononono; I was listing elements of Christian morality that I disagreed with.

God took Adam's rib and made Eve out of it. With God, it doesn't have to be scientifically possible.

Heh, yep. Speaking for myself, that's about it in a nutshell.

oh, I see, just like with the rest of the bible........