Sadaam: America's Prodigee?

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.



Zelda Lestat
Saddam Hussein ( I know i spelled that wrong,lay off) was heavily supported by the United States.He was given weapons,information, privileges, and basically allowed to torture the people of Iraq and Iran as he pleased.My question here is, why is it that now , after all this time, that now he is considered a criminal?

yerssot
cause it fitted the lie of "fighting terrorism"
My take is still that when the "war" stops the next station will be North Korea roll eyes (sarcastic)

Mr Zero
Any political question that starts with the word "why" - at some point down the line the answer is "money".

The LEAST cynical answer i can give is "political expediency..."

Nazgulinthedark
um....because bush decided he made a mistake but instead of telling the majority of the publis this, he decided to wage war on them.

Zelda Lestat
Bush make a mistake? His term has been nothing but mistakes! Though, I might agree with the 'money' situation.But it seemed to me that this all started when Saddam tried to turn his back on America.Before that,all the nations were fine with him.

Kaleanae
Everybody makes mistakes, the difference is that Bush made HUGE mistakes

Zelda Lestat
yes, like telling us that we were going into iraq because there were weapons of mass destruction there.From what i can see, the weapon that did the most destruction was us.

MC Mike
We funded many many dictators. Bush, like Yerssot said, wanted something to expand his lie of "fighting terrorism". It's a pointless war. Terrorism is a bad thing, but you can't get rid of it. It's an ideal, you can't just erase an ideal. And all Bush is doing is erasing many innocent citizens of Iraq. Granted, he gotten many more military targets but I wouldn't want a million of my enemys dead for a thousand purely innocent citizens. messed

Zelda Lestat
nice siggy. Whats more, bombs and nucleuar wepons are being dropped on innocent children there.Have you seen the conditiond=s the people live in?There are not bad conditions some will say, but isnt living in constant fear bad?

shaber
True, that is inconsistent and didn't the Clinton administration beat Serbia to death in order to establish an Islamic block?

Jedi Priestess
oh god WHO GIVES A RATS ASS?????

I for one am sick to DEATH of politics. I mean really. All this b*tching does absolutely NOTHING. You are not going to change it, the world SUX and it will continue to SUCK. Accept and it and make your corner of it better and stop complaining already.

Zelda Lestat
well you certainly are the optimistic one. it can change if people speak out for themselves.

mc pee pants
the world can can change only when people starts to agree with each other and stop being so f*cking greedy, which, by my calculations would happen, oh i say about... NEVER.

Mr Zero
I change it every day.

EVERY day.

Zelda Lestat
it could change for the better if america wasnt such a bully for one thing....

MegaHarrison
The American support of Saddam is vastly overstated. During the Iran-Iraq war of the 1980s which took place right after the Iranian hostage crisis America was looking for revenge. And it saw a tool for that in Saddam. The U.S. didn't even provide weapons...(The Iraqi army never has or never did operate any U.S. weapons. Mainly Russian and French). The U.S. provided training for Iraqi pilots and special ops, as well as fund a failed Iraqi offensive in 1984. Not the "massive" support many bias media stations say.

Jedi Priestess
blink not sure how to take this? laughing out loud

lil bitchiness
Indeed, and that turned arround and bit him in the ass in the end.

Zelda Lestat
the clinton administration wasnt altogether perfect eother.Clinton had a knack for lying like an oversized smoke bastard too...

Turbo-Cajun
Yeah Clinton lied about getting head from interns, Bush lied intelligence and started a war that has killed hundreds of US soldiers, thousands of iraqi civillians, dozens of hostiges, and lots of other shit of greater consequence.... Bush is still worse

Beyonder
roll eyes (sarcastic)

...oh how I love the fact that your quoting every American hating d!cks here in America and throughout the world.

Bully? Oh man! Do YOU even know of the good things America has done for other nations. Blab all you want to, believe all the twisted lies, you obviously don't know or CARE about what America does.

Bullying?
Like how we BULLIED the North Koreans into not invading South Korea during the Korean War, and how American troops are still guarding the 38th parallel still today? Or the FACT that South Korea is one of the RICHEST country in the world because they have a democratic government that compose of leaders choosen by the people, while North Korea is one of the POOREST country in the world becuase of their communist government where a dictator and small group of people rule over the mass.

Maybe you're talking about America BULLYING Serbia into stopping the genocide that they were commiting? Or maybe you're refering to when America enacted the Marshall Plan and BULLIED our way into spending billions of dollars fixing up most of Europe after WWII.

Most people have the impression that America is a big bully 'cause we're the only superpower left in the world. They ENVY (& I'm not lying) or HATE us because of that and other reasons. Look at the disaster in the recent Iran earthquake, Iran hates us yet when we offered to help, they accepted. They hated us and yet we offered to help and aid them. Every time there's a disaster in the world, Americans volunteer & the U.S. government aids that area of the world.

You don't know what you're talking about... Zelda Lestat. You wanna lable a country a bully, try Iraq (Gulf War), try North Korea (Korean War & currently), try Yugoslovia, try the Soviet Union, try Lebannon.

amity75
I think it's really funny how newsreaders refer to Saddam Hussein as "Saddam". It's a bit like Iraqi newsreaders going on air and saying "We were bombed today by George and Tony".

WindDancer
History sometimes takes wrong turns. Sometimes for the better sometimes for the worse. You want an example? here I'll give you one.... The British Empire should have NEVER given freedom to India. Look at them now....India and Pakistan are aiming missiles at each other....don't you think that if the British had control over them there wouldn't be tensions between Pakistan and India?

See how political decisions can go wrong.....or maybe go right? The decisions our politicians make today might shape or wreck the future. What may seen to be the right thing to do....it could go wrong in the future.

edit note: It was a twisted sarcastic example don't take it too seriously. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Mr Zero
If somebody says something you disagree with you accuse them of not knowing what they are talking about. Bullying tactics.

America has a president (and to some extent a population) that thinks nothing of saying he/they/you have a god-given right to bring the American idea of democracy to the entire world. Whether they agree with it as "freedom" - whether they want it - or not.

You can't act shocked when it's perceived as bullying. Dress it up as fighting terrorism if you like - it looks like bulling to most people outside the US and a good many inside.

The idea that America is Envied is one you will only ever hear from one place - America. The sad truth is that America is looked down upon but just about every single other nation on the planet... unfairly in some respects as the USA has a rich cultural diversity and is loaded with potential: but it's easy to sneer at - partially because it's a big dumb bully of a nation.

lil bitchiness
Well theres first time for everything so....




thumb up I absolutely agree with Zero.

Beyonder
You act as if I agree with Bush and his belief of god-given right. But don't accuse America as a whole when you label us a BULLY.

Nah Saddam isn't a terrorist even though he terrorizes his own people and his fellow neighbors. roll eyes (sarcastic)

The idea that other nations don't ENVY America is one coming from people who hate America & a too proud to admit it. I'm not saying they envy everything but it isn't like there isn't any envy at all. They look down? The rest of the world hates us yet come crawling to us for help whenever a disaster arises. They pay lobbyist in our capital to invest money into their country. Yup they hate us alright but send tons of money to our capital in hopes that the returned favor is more money pumped into their economy.

Mr Zero
I'm not accusing anyone of anything, on a personal or nationwide level. I'm trying to explain to you why your countries actions are so often referred to as bullying. I can tell the difference between the political actions of a nation and it's individuals. I visit the USA around 5 times a year and love it there, It's a truly remarkable place and ridiculously beautiful.

However - the media fed nationalistic propaganda that you see everywhere has (it seems to me) brainwashed a great deal of the population to the extent that they can't think objectively about the things the government does in their name.


Forgive me for saying this, but thats a typical example of what we mean - before the war Saddam was linked with al qaeda and producing WOMD ... Now that this has been discredited alternative retroactive justification is being used. And the American response? "Hell - who cares WHY we did it- it's done". The only nation with factual and proven self admitted WOMD and a history of terrorism in the name of politics is in fact the USA.

And you wonder why we shake our heads?




You must be right - America is desperately seeking help from the UN to police the mess its made in Iraq. Crawling for help is something the US know a little about.

Zelda Lestat
FIRST OF ALL-When I refer to 'America' I'm talking more about the government than anything else.I'm not going to critize every single citizen of th U.S like that, mainly because I DO live in California after all.And yes, America is a bully.We are considered a 'super power' in the world because of oure industrial wealth, yes,but our interfernce with other countries only makes things worse the majority of the time, yet the government keeps interfering,when obviously it isnt helping anything.

Zelda Lestat
by the way, thank you very much Mr.Zero.

Linkalicious
people who assume HUGE roles...make HUGE mistakes.

Bush did a great job rallying and leading our country after 9/11, but his decision afterwards have been poor. I support our troops for the job they are doing in Iraq, but I'd be lying if I told you I was glad that we choseIraq as our target.

I think Saddam should have been removed from power a long time ago, and truthfully, i'm happy him and his sons are out of Iraq. I DO wish changed would be more openly accepted by the Iraqi people...but as it's been stated time and time again....change can't be forced upon a people. People have to embrace change in order for it to work.

Beyonder
Then please DON'T say America. Refer specifically to the US government, Bush, or the US media. The reason I took offense is because to me America is representative of all that is American: people and history. Tony Blair gets the blame when it comes to British involvement, yet AMERICA gets blamed when it comes to U.S. involvement and not Bush. If you hate our government, point that out instead of America. And if you've read my post, my address was mainly in defense of America not BUSH.

However, the media didn't brainwash anything. If anything, it's Bush and his administration.



Don't know where you're getting that quote about us not CARING. Obviously we do since they're has been large numbers of protest/demonstration. HOWEVER, did YOU know & the PUBLIC OF YOUR COUNTRY & MEDIA (not your government) know that there wasn't WMD or an Al Qaeda link to Saddam BEFORE THE WAR? It's easy to criticize America and say all this afterwards, but did YOU yourself know or YOUR PUBLIC know? If you didn't, wouldn't you say that it would've been easy for your government and media to slowly feed you this information that Saddam had WMD and Al Qaeda was link to Saddam. (Also note that the US intelligence reported that there was evidence between Saddam and Al Qaeda. So is America not suppose to believe in our own intelligence. Or should we have believed France, who had economic treaties with Saddam's Iraq?) Additionally, what should we do now? Leave?

And it's Bush and his administration that's trying to dodge the fact that there isn't WMD destroying.

America has WMD but so does France, Britain, and others. However, we aren't going after them nor is France or Britain going after us because neither side has threatened to nuke other nations if we didn't get what we wanted. If any of these democratic nations tried to, the people would storm the capital and drag that elected official out of office and put them on trial. To carry out a nuke attack, they would also need the willingness of those around them, which I highly doubt would be willing too, and you know that.

You KNOW that if Bush, Chirac, or Blair wanted to nuke another country, they'd never be able to or would get away with it if they for some reason was able to launch a nuke. However, if Saddam or Kim Jung Il wanted to nuke another country, you think the people would have the power to over throw them - or even oppose their will? If we were dangerous, the UN would've gone after any of these countries. Thing is, America, France, and Britain are not LIKELY going to nuke another country unless it's our only option. Can you really say the same about North Korea or Iraq, possibly even Iran?

Yes, the world would be a better place without these weapons, but non of these countries are willing to give it up. And since this is the case, would you rather nukes be in the hands of countries with elected officials or psychopathic dictators who care nothing about their people & no one who can SUCCESSFULLY oppose the governments control? Would you rather give a gun to a cop (who you know can atleast try to keep the peace) or hand it to a criminal - who you know won't give a DAMN about people's lives? If you HAD to pick one, which would you rather pick? (And no, I'm not saying America is the worlds police.)



Funny. Thing is, Bush is crawling to the UN because the American public NOW knows alot of what he said was shit. Election is also coming up and so he's busting his ass to ask for help - as that's what the American public WANTS. Hell, even BEFORE the war, American's wanted Bush to get other nations involved in dealing with Iraq. America isn't crawling, it's Bush and his administration. wink



We ARE a super power. It's not US who are claiming this; a fact is a fact. The world ITSELF considers us a super power as they considered the Soviet Union a super power. It's not just industrial wealth, if so than Japan, Germany, Great Britain, France, etc. would be considered a super power. It's the fact that our military power stretches beyond our land; our missiles can reach other nations; our aircraft carrier can project our power anywhere in the world; we're the only nation to have trident submarines that can nuke any country if they were to attack mainland America; our natural resources are more abundant compared to others.

And if our governments didn't interfere, Hitler and Facism would've conquered most of the world or the Soviet Union and communism would've. If we didn't interfere in Yugoslovia, the genocide of muslims would've suceeded. Where was most of Europe when this genocide happened in their part of the world?

Isolationism got us nowhere...but Pearl Harbor and the extension of WWI and WWII.

Zelda Lestat
you know, I might just start another thread on the whole Marxist thing, because I truly don't see what the problem is with it-(than again, I could be wrong as communism isnt my subject) and yes agree that America isnt just as big as it is from factories, etc alone.But you see the thing is, America has had more failures from interferring than victories, and I for one am being to consider the credibilty of the theory that America's-(excuse me, the government) invovlement with putting Hitler's third reich to rest was nothing but propaganda.

Beyonder
???what do you mean by "nothing but propaganda?

Trickster
As far as was noticible with out media, America(as in the people), before the war, didn't move on any grand scale to show it's disapproval. Britain did.

Also, most people I have talked to disagree with Bush, not America.



Britain and France don't have WMD! Like Zero said, the US is the only country that has been proven to have mass stocks of WMD. Admittedly, other countries do as well, but don't try and say Britain and France do!

Zelda Lestat
(note, I said considering..i dont really believe it) theres this book in my school library that talks about Hitler and the holocasut and it said that many of the United Nations have come to believ that America wasnt fighting the war to help stop Hitler and help free the Jews that were captured, but they were doing it for money.

(please dont bite my head off, it was in a book)

Beyonder
France and Britain don't have nukes? 'Cause they DO.



not going to bite your head off but what money were they refering to? How would the U.S. get money from WWII? And what book is it?

Mr Zero
WOAH! - backtrack... I never said that: I said the only country to have WOMD *AND* a proven and admitted policy of using terrorism to affect political change is the mighty US of A.



However I cant even say that anymore - because somebody prefers to confuse the argument about "America" referring to the people rather than the government rather than address that point.

In my book if you have to sidetrack the point of a discussion into the rhetoric - you cease to be worth talking to.

Mr Zero
Despite what anyone might claim retroactively the motives were - it's safe to say that nobody could ever hope to claim America joined the war to stop the rise of fascism and stop the holocaust... that was just a by-product.

As you say - another topic.

Trickster
Where does Britain keep it's nukes, then?

^Me, interested. Always thought we never had any.

Beyonder
France, Britain, Soviet Union/Russia, USA, China all have nukes. These are also the Big Five of the UN counsel, thus it's next to near impossible to get rid of nukes from the world.

As for where Britain keeps there nukes, not sure. Then again, I'm not sure where America stocks ours either.

Ushgarak
!

Dunno who gave you that idea, Trick; we have bloody loads. We even have our own nuclear-armed submarine capacity.

The US motives for entering WWII are spectacularly irrelevant if trying to prove its nefarious nature; it entered to defend itself, but that is the same as ALL the major participants on the Allied side.

Linkalicious
where does America hide it's nukes?

It's not our job as citizens to know that kind of information. The location of nuclear weapons would be deemed CLASSIFIED. By just about every country with exception to N. Korea.

I only say that because Pyongyang is their only known Nuke plant capable of enriching weapons grade plutonium.

Of course...i'm sure they wouldn't keep the weapons on the premises.

Mr Zero
We dont have "bloody loads" as U says - it's not that we "even have" sea based nukes- thats ALL we have. Officialy.

Built and maintained at Aldermaston, deployed at sea by Vanguard sub.

Ushgarak
We have about 200 such warheads which is enough for anyone to consider as lots, and our air-based systems were only dismantled in '98 and we have the capacity (as a potential plutonium producer) to restore that capacity extremely quickly.

Trickster
Ah. Well, fair dos. I've just realised I was confusing what we were talking about with the fact that only the US has used nukes ever.

I'm right on that, ain't I?

Ushgarak
Yes, but that doesn't really alter much.

WindDancer
Well, let me step in and say that does the amount really matter? And do you guys really believe that the UK and the US would be very specific about quantities of nukes? I seriously doubt it. Most of that is classified, the best bet is to say both nations have a fair amount of nukes to blow a whole continent.

Mr Zero
Coughbacktrackcough.

Its right up there in B&W Ush - "We even have our own..etc"

You didnt know, you've googled it since and picked up on our '98 dismantling of land and air based, you're fooling nobody. Snore.

Ushgarak
Pfft- pathetic. I stand by what I said- having a submarine delivery puts you in a different class from just having nukes, which is a pretty basic principle. And we still have air-based warheads in storage. And if you are goign to reduce the argument on to what loads means, then that is pretty darnn pointless.

Mr Zero
We

even

have

Ushgarak
If you think just repeating those words makes any difference to the argument at all you are gravely mistaken.

Mr Zero
how about the word "Google" ?

Trickster
*has realised doesn't know much of subject at hand and has decided not to stay to try and learn more from what is degrading into an immature arguement*

Night, all!

Ushgarak
No, that's just more pointlessness on your part.

Mr Zero
Oh go on and have the last word Ush - so this thread can get back to normal.

Ushgarak
And now you are just demonstrating your immaturity.

But if you insist...

The answer is simple; you make allies or enemies at appropriate times. Saddam was a useful ally for America at that point. Note ally, not friend. Now he's not. That's life; it's happened a million times in history. The evils of a leader are not considered justifcation by the world for any form of direct action, of course, but as soon as Saddam messed with the world's oil supply- and that's not just money, that existence for the West- then everything he had done wrong became grounds for justifying action.

Zelda Lestat
The book was called 'The Line Between Truth and Death-The Holocaust Account'. As for the money, it had to do with taxes, and the depression.

Beyonder
???Who would America have taxed? The Germans? There Great Depression was even worse than America's.

Ushgarak
Yes, well, as said, best to have that whole discussion in another thread.

Zelda Lestat
okay. then I'll start another thread okay?

hunchy
Why are we against Saddam now? Hmm...because we didn't know he'd turn out to be a mad man.

Zelda Lestat
You didnt know he'd turn out to be a madman?!?!?!?!?WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT!!!!HE WAS A CRAZED MEGALOMANIAC FROM THE START!!!!!!!

hunchy
Maybe he was...but he didn't show it at first...until he started executing and killing tons of his own people.

Zelda Lestat
didnt show it at first?the way he ran that country didnt show it?Like how even the most frivolous of crimes could earn you the death of a family member or yourself???

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.