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I watched the ESB DVD with commentary yesterday, and Gl made an interesting comment about the Jedi Disappearing trick that many of us have kept occupied for some time now. Why didn't Qui-Gon disappear, did Anakin disappear when he died, how come that we hear Qui-Gon's voice in AOTC, what's this with "when you strike me down I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine"? Etc. etc.

Now GL said something interesting about the disappearing trick. He said that it had to do with Jedi 'voluntarily joining the Force" and that it would all be explained in the first three films. I found that interesting becuase I can't really see where that has been explained so far. And volutarily joiing the Force... I've only seen OB1 do that. Qui-Gon was killed, even to his own surprise. Nothing voluntary there. Yoda died of old age ("strong am I with the Force, but not that strong" - he clearly was faced with death he couldn't stop) and Anakin also died of his injuries...

So now I'm even more confused.

yoda held on waiting for luke, to say his last words,
then dissapeared. he had plenty of time to sit alone and ponder
his own death, and he chose to be OWTF...why? i think him and
kenbobi were on the DS2 during the final confrontation. or else,
why would yoda bother doing the trick? why did he not just die
like everyone else?

now QUIGON... quigon did not die instantly, he had time to lay and think.
perhaps during that time, he prepared himself? remember, quigon
is the more open minded of the jedi, and has unconditional faith
in the will of the force. i think because of this, he was able to become
OWTF. as far as disappearing, we have not seen quigon's physical ghost
as of yet, just his voice. perhaps one must vanish to maintain physical form?

Anakin didn't actualy die. He was transformed. When he turned to the dark side he no longer accepted the name Anakin. He was allready Vader when he fell into the lava. Yoda had time to accept his fate and join the Force. Qwi-Gon was suprised by his fate but I feel he eventually joined the force some how. In the end of ROTJ Vader/Anakin new he was dieing and joined the force. Obi-Wan accepted death, knew it was comming and joined the force.

OMG!!! You're beginning to sound like GL!!


Qui Gon did NOT voluntarily die... He didn't even disappear.

Yoda did not voluntarily die... he may have held off death voluntarily (although that is pure speculation) but he didn't die voluntarily.

And Anakin transformed???? Why don't we see it then?

Only OB1 fits that description. Yoda... maybe.

We never saw Vader after he died, we only saw the suit burning he may not have been in the suit.

when Vader died at the end of ROTJ he was actually Anakin again. He said "Help me take this mask off" Luke said "No you will Die" Anakin said "Nothing can stop that now". I think at that point he voluntarily died.

As to the TRANSFORMATION from Anaki to Vader, he turned back to the good side in the end which proves that he didn't die in the first place. There was no reserection of Anakin. He was allways alive just turned evil.

I believe we will see this transformation in Episode 3.

Vader died because of his injuries and because of Palpy's lightning... that was not voluntarily.
If taht is the case all the Jedi that died in AOTC died voluntarily for the good cause. Yet the disappearing trick is something special.

I thought you were talking about the injuries from the lava pit.... My bad.

yeah those injuries were guite bad

in agree with whoever said qui-gon having time to think before he died,and making peace or whatever or volunteering to the force,as for yoda... could it be possible he forseen his death and made peace before hand?

This new phrasing Lucas has that queeq pointed out had me thinking to. I think its more simple than we're making it. I've always thought it had to do with "prep" time as queeq also said earlier. But now I think its simple, when they die, it's probably compared to that whole light in a tunnel cliche we all know of. They just choose not to go. They refuse to go and, instead, remain "earth" bound (in the corporeal plain of existence). I think the "voluntarilly joining the force" refers to all the Jedi who didn't appear (either in voice or appearance). All the other Jedi volutarilly join the force, probably because they are okay with it. Sort of how there are always stories of ghosts hanging around because of "unfinished business". Same idea no doubt applies here. Qui-gon, stubborn as he is, probably refused to join the Force, because he was so interested in Anakin and his being the Chosen One. Jinn no doubt refused to join the Force to watch over Anakin. Obi-wan knew he needed to watch over Luke so he would then refuse to join the Force, perhaps Qui-gon teaches this to him in 3, perhaps not, I hear Liam's not in it. But they're supposed to explain it somehow. Then Yoda would refuse to join the Force immediately after death because he too wanted to watch over Luke and make sure he makes it through his enevitable duel. They don't voluntarily join the Force because they need to see something through in the physical world.

queeq, a very important point you are missing, is that its stated
that the jedi volunatily give themselve to the force
>>>but who ever stated that you have to volunarily die?

quigon, yoda, anakin, kenobi knew they were going to die, so the gave themselves to the force. it doesnt matter HOW they die. and who says kenobi
killed himself? perhaps he was just able to do the trick very quick.
"if you strike me down" not "if you TRY to strike me down"
but thats beside the point...

As for Anakin at the end or ROTJ, I believe he appears, like Yoda and Obi-wan, to basically just show Luke (and the audience) that everything is okay. Perhaps also to show the audience that Anakin has in fact restored balance to the Force and returned to the light officially, because he stands with Obi-wan and Yoda and they're all smiling.

prep time.....i like that idea,of the whole unfinished business,all of it makes very good sense,awesome post meph!!!!!

sad to say it but we probably already figured out this mystery and just don't know it yet. from some of the commentaries i heard on the dvds its sounds like everyone in these forums are on the right track.

The important point is that the lingering-after-death thing is NEW- it's not happened before.

GL's just being loose-toungued, queeq. The whole thing happens around the rough point of death, that's the important deal. Obi-Wan was killed by Vader, or wasn't and siappeared first... small issue.

Qui-Gon, however, THAT is a pain.

If anyone's watched Empire of Dreams they'll see the original take of Obi Wan's downfall, in which he is sliced in half. Unfortunately, it looks terrible, which is why the "Ghost" thing was created. George never expected anyone to give a damn about stupid stuff like disappearing Jedi, so now he's covering his ass with a terrible excuse. People always whine about Lucas killing Star Wars, but I think it's the fans' badgering to seal up arbirtrary loose ends(instead of discussing them intelligently here) that causes Lucas to lose focus and contradict himself("I never had any intention of making an episode 7, 8, or 9..."

GL said that anakin got to maintain his original being because he was already a jedi when he was young that's what I heard.

Not only Qui-Gon. What about all the JEdi taht died of old age and other natural causes in the thousands of years they've been in existence. I bet many Jedi died peacefully and yet, the disappearing trick is new.

I know Gl is loose-tongued, but that's what's so interesting.Personally, after AOTC I thought GL was never really going to explain it. Just use a McGuffin and get it done with. But this... this brings in a different perspective that obviously he's been playing with in his mind for a while. He sounded pretty concret about his point about disappearing.

(BTW Ush, I wholeheartedly agree with your saying that the commentray track on ESB was most outstanding... the best so far of all five DVD's. Kershner rules!)

The thousands of Jedi dying over time and never doing it is not THAT much of a pain- it just makes the issue more plot central. So long as he mentions it; and I think we can be fairly sure he will THIS time. To some extent. I hope. -ish.

As soon as we heard QGJ's voice in AOTC- that's the bit that is a pain- I think it was relatively certain that GL was going to look at it more, especially listening to his commentary.

Kershner for President!

Anakin maintained his original form because when he turned to the dark side he was no longer Anakin. When he returned to the light he reverted back to the last point in time when he was good.

i think an important quote from lucas is that
the jedi in episode 3 learn a way to retain their "identity"

see, i find identity to be a strange word for this topic. i think
it alludes to the idea that the jedi lose their identity when they die.
it makes me think of buddhism, in that when one dies, they lose
their identity and become one with the universe. (owtf)

i know im playing the religion card here, but we know that GL
is heavily influenced by eastern hero stories, perhaps he sprinkled
his story with some eastern theology as well...

all i know is that identity is a strong word. it entails everything
a person is, not just whether or not someone else can see/hear them.

By keeping their identity, I think he means they don't become dissipated into the Force. Instead, they can have limited influence over it.

I just watched ROTJ with commentary and again Lucas says a few interesting tidbits about this. He says that OB1 and Yoda discover how to do this. And the way he say it, makes it clear that it's exlcusively something OB1 and Yoda master.
Also, I carefully checked out the dying Anakin scene and there are three of four shots with Anakin dead in it. His detah gets more shots than OB1 and Yoda (both only two) and in all his body is still visible. Inculding the very last shot on Luke which tilts down and we see Anakin's nose andface in the foreground. It is all too clear Anakin does NOT diappear upon death. If that was supposed to be that way, I'd expect GL to have changed that.
I also watched AOTC with commentary again, but GL is quite sparse with his comments about that. So... the plot thickens.

i agree queeq.
i need to see/read proof that anakin disappeared.
the camera lingered on him for way too long when he died.
i would think that GL was trying to illustrate clearly that vader
did NOT disappear.

and how do we know that the suit was empty when luke burned him?
it looked strange in the scene...but it was on fire. fire is difficul to control.
perhaps the empty look of the suit was just a lack of filling....
maybe the filling was too combustable and burned away before the
fire grew enough to be filmed?

anyway why the hell would luke give a funeral to a suit?
and an evil suit at that.
i just cant buy it

Me neither. I heard once that McCallum said Anakin disappeared, but McCallum is not a very reliable source when it comes to the intricacies of the SW story. Just listen to the commentaries. He's a great producer, but he worships George and all in all he doesn't seem to 'get' the whole SW thing, aside from really liking it.

Personally having a good look at the DVD, Anakin does NOT NOT NOT NOT disappear. He just doesn't. And if it's so important the HE disappears... why do we see yoda and OB1 disappear, while the ultimate Chosen One for whom it was so darn important that he becomes One with the Force to bring that friggin' balance, does NOT visibly disappear. It just doesn't make any sense. And I'm sure GL would have corrected that in this DVD if he wanted Anakin to disappear. It would have been fairly easy to do.

starwars.com database, character: Darth Vader:

"As he lay dying, Vader ceased to be. Anakin Skywalker returned. He asked his son to remove the cumbersome, fearsome mask that had concealed his face for decades. His mask and life support removed, Anakin looked upon Luke for the first and last time. He then died, his body disappearing into the light side of the Force. Luke burned the dark armor that had encased Anakin's crippled body in a quiet funeral pyre on the forest moon of Endor that night. "

I just watched ANH with the comentary on and Lucas said that Vader did not kill OBI-WAN. He said that he joined the force. From Lukes POV Vader struck him down but OBI-Wan didn't die at all he simply joind the force before Vaders saber struck home. So one does not have to die to join the Force they just have to want to. I believe that that is what Yoda did just before he died.

All I can say is: I don't SEE it happening... Plus with GL saying that it is something OB1 and Yoda discover (and probably don't tell the wayward Anakin) then this at SW.com doesn't make sense at all.

And Yoda was dying... "STtrong am I with the Force, but not that strong." And he can hardly pronounce the words... Well, maybe he does, but GL is weaving a web for himself that makes it hard to come out of without losing any credibility. The PT is way too complex as it is, this disappearing thing makes it even worse.

But we see Anakin at the end of ROTJ. If he didn't join the force how did he get there? Yes yoda was dying but he could have joined the force before he did die......couldn't he?

Well, JJ1138, that is the whole point. It's just very confusing how this 'joining the Force" works. GL promised us that AOTC would begin to explain it, but with QGJ's voice it's just gotten worse. It'll HAVE to be explained in ROTS, but the commentaries on the DVD (where he refers to it being explained in the PT) make it all the more confusing. The thing is, disappearing does not seem to be conditional for appearing afetr death. It never wasa problem, until QGJ did not disappear... and since AOTC it is a problem that QGJ is heard despite the fact that he didnt disappear...

perhaps the burning of the body is an alternative if the jedi isn't able to disappear at death. It still destroys the body. Qui-gon was burned and we hear him in AOTC. Anakin's body is burned and THEN we see him materialize for the first time along side Yoda and Obi-wan.

But I don't think the disappearing or distruction of the Jedi's body has much to do with it. It seems, based on what Lucas has said in commentaries, that the Jedi, at death, seem to be faced with a choice to either loose their identity and become one with the force, or retain their identity and not join the force enabling them to materialize in the physical world and pass on guidance. And again, outside of Palpatine's era and rise to power, it sounds like everyone remembers things being relatively peaceful and calm. So Jedi who have passed on would accept joining the force. Now Qui-gon might want to stay around with this new threat of the Sith's re-emergance, and watch over Anakin's development. Once all the Jedi are dead, those who know of Luke and Leia's identity would want to hang around to watch over him, I.E. -- yoda and obi-wan. Anakin would want to appear with his fallen masters to show Luke that he did well and everything is ok. They would then probably go and join the force and loose their identites now that they know everything will be okay.

EXACTLY the point i try to make.
its budhism, the idea of being "One With the Universe" is budhist.
in budhism, you give yourself up, everything that you are, and become
everything/nothing. the jedi find a way to cheat this, and keep their identity.

i would also assume that once the ghosts show themselves to luke
to say "yeah, we're all ok" that they then give themselves to the force,
or become owtf, since their job is done.

i have definitely heard that anakin disappears after he dies, and that luke burns an empty suit on endor....i do believe that this may have been decided recently, but even if it was mcallum that said it, i don't think he would just make something like this up by himself and go mouthing off....he would have been given the information by lucas...

i am confused by the qui gon situation also....i desperately want to see him appear in ghost form in ep III, but the explanation better be damn good as well....most likely explanation i heard was that he is the one who works out how to do it and passes this information on to obi wan and yoda....i have also always seen it as an unfinished business situation....dunno....we'll see....

i hope....

yeah, back when I first heard this debate on the forums (a year ago, and I'm sure its wasn't the first time then either) I tried explaining it through Buddhism because it's clearly the source of the idea. The Jedi are Monks/Samurai so it's only natural that their death info would correlate to Buddhism as well.

Oh yeah! Heh heh!

You know PVS, my favorite Quagmire moment: The episode where Meg wants revenge on her friends so her mom helps. Then Meg backs out, gets humiliated, tells her mom she should have listened to her. Then the mom's all 'that's why I had a backup plan'. The doorbell rings to the house of these little teen cheerleaders, and its Quagmire who says "How old are you?". "16". So he's all "18? All right!" Only time potential child molestation has ever been so funny!

And there are also stories of Buddhist monks who willed themselves to die when they were ready, much like Obi-wan's death in ANH.

you forgot the funniest part of that,
when the girl gets mad and calls "MOM!!!!!"
and quagmire says "hey, i like where this is going! gigidy gigidy gigidy!!!"

Oh mi god I luv that damn show! Oh I can't wait till the new episodes start up!

YEAH......if i remember right they show some buddist setting themselves on fire on the cover of the first rage against the machine album, pretty intense s**t!!!!!!

it was a statement of rebellion due to the vietnom war i think...

yes, he sat himself down on the steps of some government building, poured gasoline all over himself, lit himself on fire, and sat their meditating until death. he didn't even move. Very powerful stuff.

Get back op topic people.

well, before we got thrown off coarse by quagmire (gigidy gigidy gigidy ) and rage against the machine, we were on the topic
of the jedi religion, and how it seems to parallel budhist befiefs in that
all living things are part of one whole universe, and when a person dies and is able to let go of his/her earthly posessions (including their own identity) they become one with the universe.

the idea i have is that quigon finds a way to stop this from happening, when the situation calls for it. he finds a way to hold on to his identity.

thoughts?

didn't we already discuss that? Oh all right...
That's exactly what I think he did. He just doesn't become one with the force. Apparently you can refuse or choose not to. As I assume Obi-wan does the same, then Yoda, then Anakin. Maybe at death, until you do become one with the force, you would still retain your identity so you'd still be able to think like you and say, "i'm not going yet, I got something I wanna check out first". And then they hang around. Since you would have your identity until becoming one with the force, you would be able to conciously make a decision not to join the force.

But Anakin doesn't even know that he can choose to join the Force...

how do you know that?

he doesnt know how to retain his identity.
lucas never says anything about it being the same as
becoming one with the force. imho, to retain your identity
would mean that you dont become one with the force...at least not
until you choose to.

Yes, but he also said OB1 and Yoda find out how to do that. And from the fight convo in ANH it is clear Anakin doesn't know about it. So when does he find out? I doubt Yoda or OB1 told him, Luke seems unaware of it so who tells him?

i think one of 2 things

1-he's the chosen one, so by default he can do it (not what i think)

2-yoda and ben guided him as he died (what i think)

think about it, yoda disappears when he dies, but you dont see him again till the end...what was his purpose for doing 'the trick'?

I dunno. That's the problem. We don't know what purpose it serves. In fact, we don't know anything. All we know it is some sort of exclusive JEdi thing that OB1 and Yoda discover. We see them doing it, but we definately DON'T SEE Anakin do. And we also don't see Qui-Gon disappear but his voice lingers on somehow....

And Yoda and OB1 guiding Anakin... that's kinda lame. But who knows...

lame?

i kinda like it.

it doesnt allude to them planning the whole thing,
more like a 'just in case' move.

problem is...we will never know.... if that was the case.

yeah, why is that lame? their his old masters, training is what they do. That's cool. It shows that they're glad to have him back and its a way of welcoming him back to the light.

They didn't die!

I was reading a magazine, and it says they were just actors! They stood in front of a blue screen and had people make them look like ghosts!

I can't believe it. The X-Wings are just models too! It's the moon landing all over again!

I hear the man behind this conspiracy is George Lucas, we must rebel now!

No, no, none of this adds up at all!

OMG I KNEW IT!!!!!!!!!!!! Iguess now you are gonna tell me that the Jedi and the Force are nothing but MOVIE MAGIC.......
NNNNNOOOOOOOooooooooo.........

Superfly, now you are just being delusional.
or perhaps you are just pulling our legs?

OF COARSE xwings are real, ben and yoda are NOT actors and they really are dead. how could you have such a lack of respect for the dearly departed jedi??? SHAME ON YOU!!!

don't preach that nonesense here!!!

OHHHH Thank You PVS, I thought he was serious.

Filmwise is it lame... It's soft, mushy and impossible to explain. It's a kinda forced Spielberg-happy-ending thing... "See!! All's well taht ends well! Never mind the thousands that were killed by Vader's evil, he's good now and all is forgotten". I'd prefer it that Vader has to make it to the Force the hard way: purged by fire... If something like that is hinted at in EPIII, I'd be pretty happy. It'd show that Vader went the hard way in everything he did. Sort of poetic justice.

Just found this on the OS forum (to o with Sifo Dyas). What i thought was interesting was the comment below:

"4) Qui Gon's body didn't dissapear (all light side do even the ones on geonosis watch carefully next time i promise you)"

Don't know if this is true (i doubt it) but if anyones near a DVD player take a look.

Hmmm, that's new.

And odd, because Anakin doesn't know about it. It even goes against what GL said himself.

Perhaps it was just bad editing, if he's talking about where I think he is. All the bodies do seem to be gone by the time the Jedi are in a circle, but again, I think that's just bad editing. Lucas has said only Qui-gon, Obi-wan and Yoda know how.

queeq--I understand what you were saying about Vader's easy way out, but remember, the Jedi always try to rehabilitate and forgive. It's not in their nature to make Anakin suffer for what he's done.

but queeq, kenobi makes it quite clear that he never blamed anakin. he was so willing to forgive his actions that he never equated darth vader with anakin. "the good man who was your father" and "twisted and evil" are two entirely different people to him.

anakin killed palpatine, a task which nobody else was powerful enough to do. when it was just the OT, i didnt think this was so, but now with the plot addition of anakin being the 'chosen one' and how he would 'bring balance to the force' its safe to say that without him,
the emporer would have taken over anyway. his plan was fool-proof and destined to work. it was already in full motion even before anakin was discovered.

the only purpose vader served was to accelerate sidious' plans by eliminating the remaining jedi. had it not been anakin, it would have been someone/something else...like general greivous version 2.0.

if it was reality, then anakin's actions would not be forgivable. but in story telling, such actions are sometimes forgivable. take lando...please. (snare shot) in ep5 he was a traitor and in ep6 he was a general, and not only led the attack on the DS2, but was the one who blew it up, with wedge's help of coarse.

without forgiveness, the SW galaxy would never have been freed from the emporer.

Well said!

your forgeting anakin knows how as well

Supposedly he does. Though why he didn't disappear, I don't know......

Mist--not according to Lucas.

Actually, I thought it was Lucas who said he did......

There was a long debate on here about that.

Really? I thought he said it's something only Yoda, Obi-wan and Qui-gon know how to do. I swear I heard that in the commentaries somewhere... it's a new thing. How would he know?

Maybe that info was wrong; I can't remember the source. Obi-Wan could've told him at some point. Depends on how its handled by the movie, I suppose.
Or maybe Anakin appearing as a ghost is the doing of Obi and Yoda.

That's what I've been thinking. Like PVS said, maybe they stop him from joining when he dies so they can all go say thanks and goodbye to luke. They really better explain this thoroughly in ROTS. I can't take this anymore!

That may all be very nice for a philosphical debate. Moviewise it just sucks. Simply because you can't explain something like that simply and impossible to do it without some dreary explanatory dialogue, which is then very very boring. And in fact: it isn't explained at all and never will. So solutionwise, I'd like it if something in ROTS would be said about fire as a purging way to redeem a Jedi willing to join the Force.... then we can draw our own conclusions for ROTJ.... and debate it till we die...

oh i can't wait....debating till we die. Dammit George, why do have to be so vague.

i wouldnt hold my breath waiting for that insightful dialogue queeq.
*cough*darksidecave*cough*

Well it's supposed to be explained during Episode 3 right? But I heard the explanation will confuse us a bit?

the dark side cave? that will not be explained.

Oh nevermind. I was thinking about something else.

......

Err... I really don't understand this 'purged by fire' obession of yours, queeq... seems quite eccentric.

And the dead Jedi in the Arena do not disappear; there has been no going back on word yet.

uh oh! i sense another "clash of the mods" coming

dum da dum, EEk EEk EEk!

And what's wrong with eccentric?

could palpatine of told him about this trick, the only reason i ask is becouse after ep3 kenobi, luke, and palpatine are the only ones that know the ways of the jedi that vader comes in contact with,(not counting the purge) the only one that could give him the answer would be palpatine becouse i'm sure he knows the jedi's beliefs the same as he knows the siths, the same as the jedi knowing the siths beliefs, i think palpatine might have told vader about joining the force but also told vader it was impossible for him to do it since he gave himself to the darkside the only one that could bring him to his true self would of course be luke,and thats why the son of skywalker must not become a jedi

why on earth would he know?

would it be fair to say that since the jedi know the siths ways and beliefs, that the sith would know the jedis, i mean that has to be the reason they are enemies,becouse of each others beliefs,right?

Could it also be true that the only way to join the force is to be completely committed to it? I mean some of the Jedi who do not disappear after there death could be force strong but not force POWERFUL.

No. The Sith don't know everything of the Jedi and vice versa. They fought because some jedi believed the force should be used for control, others believed it should defend and help. So they fought. That's the extent of it. And it was so long ago I doubt the Jedi even know their own customs from that far back.

well wouldnt the archives show there customs,i'm sure they do, and palpatine knows his enemies, he's highly intellegent and knows more than what he shows,i'm sure he knows a great deal of the jedis beliefs especially one as imparative as joining the force

if it were in the archives, everyone could do it.

uhhhh....well you said that the jedi dont even know there customs from that far back,but i'm sure there customs are documented in the archives!!!

are you? you're sure? how are you sure?

becouse the purpose of the archives are to offer knowledge of the jedis customs, but dam i bet it doesnt explain that mindboggleing force ghost thing......

exactly. i know you're being sarcastic but that's how it is. you wouldn't want sensitive material like that able to be hacked by somebody. there are probably several secrets that are orally passed down and only a few people know, like in martial arts. There are several moves and styles that only a select few are taught because they don't want just anyone having the knowledge. So yes, they would leave that out, amongst other things I'll bet. (notice I didn't say "i'm sure" of something it is impossible to be sure about).

The Jedi archives would not show the ability to join the force. It aparently is a new find. It hasn't made it to the archives yet.

correct. some are forgetting is that lucas states that it's in ep3 that the jedi learn about keeping their identity after death...probably from quigon. so it would not be in the archives

yeah i know the joining the force thing wouldnt be in the archives, but i think it was a debate on how anakin found out about the joining the force and me being idealistic, and said mabey palpatine found out and people just......FREAKED OUT MAN......i dont know,i've had good ideas and some bad ones,but people gotta stop bugging,i mean this stuff is suppose to be fun right?

well if you know its not in the archives, why are you for him gettin the info from the archives? I know its all fun here, but a put a little more thought into it, and I'm not saying that to be mean. It just seems weird that if you know its not in the archives, that you'd still suggest thats where Ani learned it. You know that's not the case, why put yourself on the line?

A message from beyond is the best way to go, if Neeson's in the movie.
Otherwise, I suspect Yoda's going to have a sudden revelation and share it with others.

Hey, what if Mace reappears as a ghost to Yoda to warn him of impending doom? I'm sure Yoda talked to him later on once he realized whose voice he'd heard and what it meant.

GL was quite specific: OB1 and Yoda find out about joining the Force. NO one else before them knows, Vader doesn't know in ANH, NOBODY knows... only OB1 and Yoda and perhaps maybe possibly Qui-Gon...

I feel that it will be the will of the force not the will of the Jedi who decides on who joins the force and who doesn't.

I don't think the force is that sentient. You make it sound like some sort of god. The force is supposed to be like the eastern concept of chi. It just is. If the Force could calculate to help the Jedi defeat the Sith like that, I'm sure it could just strip the Sith of power. But it doesn't, because its supposed to be a naturally occuring thing which, like nature, is neutral.

i never said a word about them getting anything from the archives. just because some dont agree with you, it doesnt mean they share a brain. as for ME, i speak based on what lucas has said, not my own opinions.

But it is sentient. It is the LIVING Force. Qui-Gon spoke a lot about the will of the force.Without the Dark side the Light side could not exist. Its kida like YIN & YANG, everything has an opposite, every action has an equal reaction.

u dont have to be sentient to be living!

Don't make more out of the Force than it is, please. The vaguer, the better.

no he was talking to me,but the convo got screwed up somehow,he said something on the lines of the jedi forgetting there customs,and i said the jedi wouldnt forget becouse its documented and he got all crazy thinking i was referring to the joining the force would be in the archives, i told him he misunderstood me but sh*t gets screwed up here sometimes!!!!!!

this is when i said the customs would be documented so the jedi would know how far back there existence went

that's good, cuz I wasn't talking about you ya meglomaniac!!
I was talkn' bout captainmidnight because he said maybe Ani learned it from the archives, then he said he knew that wasn't the case he was just suggesting an alternative and I was wondering why he'd say that's where Ani learned it, when capt. knew it wasn't the case. I know you didn't say anything like that Peeves, i usually agree with ya!

exactly, that's why i'm saying its not "sentient" in the sense that its sitting there analyzing things. Its a force of nature, part of the universe. A neutral thing that can be used for good or bad, like a hammer but far more complicated. It just simply is. It is what it is and thats all that it is.

I got crazy? First you said maybe Ani learned it from the archives, I pointed out why that wouldn't be (aside from Lucas saying so) and you said you knew that, but you said it anyway. That's why you confused me, you went back on something you said earlier. Its hard to keep track when you switch sides mid discussion.

and if so much as one a ya uses the term flip flopper I'll slap the meat from yer bones!

The Living Force is only one part of the Force; as GL says, the 'greater' part of the Force is the Cosmic one, and that is the one to do with the future, and destiny, and almost certainly the ghost thing.

The Living Force is the part that allows them to sense (and influence) minds, and be so instinctive, and so forth.

Cosmic Force??? Another one? I wonder what the point is of all these different Forces (well, different... you know what I mean). It is remiscnent of the Holy Trinity from the Bible actually. LIving Force: Jesus, Unifying Force: Holy Spirit and Cosmic Force: God the Father.

However, SW is not a religious document. If we don't understand it from the films and these different sides to the Force play no part in the story, why all this mumbo jumbo from GL about all this? Confusing...

there aren't different forces. The living force concept refers to pay attention to what its telling you now, about what you're doing now. You can tap into the force to see the future, the past, other places. The living force means what's happening now. It's not literally "living" or the only force active, its just refered to as living to show that it is concerning what is going on right now.

There are a lot of side stroies that we have not heard yet. LFL has gone to great lengths to put a back story on just about everything in the SW Galaxy. This could just be part of the greater picture in GL's mind. We may never know for sure.