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This is something that we've been discussing a lot in my philosophy class, so I thought I'd ask it here.

Where do you think morals come from? Are they something that comes from religion/God, from society, from yourself, or born into you?

I believe that your morals are a mixture of what you learn from your society/culture and something that you come up with yourself. I don't believe in the thought that morals come from God, and I don't think that they're born into you because the difference between right and wrong is something that most children can't grasp at a young age and it must be taught to them.

Someone respond......

Good points, and I agree. In my eyes, a culture/society is the primary influence, often by way or family. Nurture I believe its called. We are not inherit built as moral creatures, we learn them to a large degree based upon the views and forces of family, state, sometimes Church, and very much Law. And they change, I mean, a moral noble in Medieval times believed it was morally right to burn witches and to fight non-Christians, as that is what the broad moral rules where of the day. These days new morals have replaced them based upon the different views of society.

However, some, such as the Ancient Greek Philosophers like Socrates, believed that we are basically good, and have inbuilt morals, which maybe can be right, after all, we know loyalty and killing is wrong.... to a degree. So yes, nurture over nature, we learn morals, we aren't born with them....

I believe morals are a byproduct of human interaction. In that way, anyone who lives in a society can learn morals without religion or god.

I have to agree on one level, that IMO morals don't stem from God, because I am not religious. But what about those who believe in the Christain faith? Moses? Wasn't it him who got the Ten Commandments?

(please excuse me if I have the details wrong)

yes according to the bible it was Moses who got them, both jews and christians live by them

So when I said that those with certain faith believe that morals came from God I wasn't waaaay off?

Aesop!

depends on who ou ask

Right back at ya rudeboy

Of course

Nope, there are a lot of people who believe that morals come from God, and they don't all follow the same religion.

I don't believe in that, though.

Some morals clearly come from humans... ones that don't work in a society like robbery, murder, or traitor speech against the leader.

Our morals come from our parents. People born to bad parents will usually become bad people. And the reverse is also true.

Sequence of events everything comes from everything.

From people that use their mind and not their instinct.

I'd like to quote Finti here; "It depends who you speak to"......

Ten Commandments again? 'Thou shalt not steal', 'Thou shalt not kill' etc etc?

What about the negative connotation placed on polygamy by the Catholic Church? This was not handed down by God, it was a decree that originated from the church leadership at the time intending to increase the amount land inheritted by the church. It is now immoral to take part in polygamy, and while it did in fact come from a religious source, it was motivated by clearly human motives such as greed and the desire to build wealth.









mmmm....polygamy...

The basis of your morals are taught by:

1) Teachers
2) Parents
3) Muppets/various other educational and entertaining televisions
4) Adults in general.

You learn most of them, but shape them to how you feel a decent human being should act.

Primitive societys also made some of those rules. It is unlikely that
a. Murdering somebody (e.g. killing without a valid reason, which isn't easy) like Abel, wasn't a happy act.
b. Stealing the fruit of truth from the tree, or stealing any leader's gold is not appreciated.
c. Calling your leader a stuck up prig just speaks for itself, doesn't it.

all depends on idiology

No offense, but doesn't the one commandment say: "Thou shalt not kill"? To me, this doesn't take a lawyer. Its rather straightforward becuase it doesn't leave any loopholes....

Who likes murder then? Towards relatives, or family, or anyone who doesn't deserve it, for no valid reason.

I was just saying that those people with certain faith believe that their morals, and society's, came from religion.

I just got an email on points to ponder...

It stated that if Electricity came from electrons, then morality came from morons

moral judgement is what we should call it, although everyone has morals they are not all the same, even if we live in the same society, morals are based on an individuals perception of his/ her upbringing in a specific society. there is no set in stone morals anywhere. to a point yes, morals did come from the bible (and other religious texts) but this is not the same as coming from "god". basically it is based on us, as protagoras said "man is the mesure of all things" we percieve reality individually as well as believe in different morals. however we have already taken this argument too far, before we try to say what morals are we first must decide on how we know what is right and what is wrong, this being an epistemological question on the theory of knowledge. so we must ask, how do we know what is truly right, or truly wrong?

jawdrop

Couldn't you have just said "I don't know"?

So if you think morals come from society and that is OK then what do you think about a society that has morals describing a certain race as subhuman. If majority or that particular society states that it is OK to treat a particular race like subhumans than it is morally ok, by your standards. So in Nazi Germany the killing of 100's of thousands of Jews was morally Ok because it was a law in Germany at that time that Jews were subhuman and it was accepted. Morals based on your society is a break down of society.

Oh and comment to Polygamy is quite funny.

Originally posted by shmity
So if you think morals come from society and that is OK then what do you think about a society that has morals describing a certain race as subhuman. If majority or that particular society states that it is OK to treat a particular race like subhumans than it is morally ok, by your standards. So in Nazi Germany the killing of 100's of thousands of Jews was morally Ok because it was a law in Germany at that time that Jews were subhuman and it was accepted. Morals based on your society is a break down of society.

Oh and comment to Polygamy is quite funny.

But it was moral in our society to kill the Germans for doing what is moral in their society but not in ours.

Morals dont have to come from God, as they are maintained by society. It just so happens our moral framework is largely based on Judo/Christian thought, our society has maintained that, even in atheistic circles.

However, I think morals are slowly becoming more transparent- we are becoming a culture where "behind closed doors" is a rule What was once a staunch social ideal even just 50 years ago has totally died in modern times, perhaps you could argue so has communal interaction and thus, we become a law unto ourselves...but I don't want to get into that argument, about social decline. Namely because people just say "we are becoming more progressive and better a society" I for one don't accept that but who am I...

Are morals based on God? Perhaps, I like to think so. I don't think you need to believe in God to be moral but that doesn't mean he didnt create them in the first place. God can put a nice bow on any moral package, because without him it becomes more difficult to define a permanent right and wrong. However, maybe we shouldnt have absolute morals.

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Morals dont have to come from God, as they are maintained by society. It just so happens our moral framework is largely based on Judo/Christian thought, our society has maintained that, even in atheistic circles.

However, I think morals are slowly becoming more transparent- we are becoming a culture where "behind closed doors" is a rule What was once a staunch social ideal even just 50 years ago has totally died in modern times, perhaps you could argue so has communal interaction and thus, we become a law unto ourselves...but I don't want to get into that argument, about social decline. Namely because people just say "we are becoming more progressive and better a society" I for one don't accept that but who am I...

Are morals based on God? Perhaps, I like to think so. I don't think you need to believe in God to be moral but that doesn't mean he didnt create them in the first place. God can put a nice bow on any moral package, because without him it becomes more difficult to define a permanent right and wrong. However, maybe we shouldnt have absolute morals.
Is this the same god that kills people with hurricanes?

they come from dogma. where they SHUD come from though is our inherent humanity which defines all of us.

Morals come from the weak who needed a way to protect themselves. Religion and humanism have needlessly perpetuated the idea.

Morals don't come from any one place. They come from parents, siblings, society, culture, media, religion, etc. Now, you don't need all of these things to be a morally sound individual, but I just tried to cover all the bases. I also believe that people have an inherent sense of what is good and what is bad in most situations.

Morality is a function of social interactions in human communities and based upon what human beings value. Unless we value something, it makes no sense to say that there is a moral requirement to defend it or prohibit harm from coming to it.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Is this the same god that kills people with hurricanes?
Whats that got to do with morality?

What a silly point...

^it puts into question the morals of the being from which morality is supposed to emenate for many.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
^it puts into question the morals of the being from which morality is supposed to emenate for many.

No it doesn't....

If the being in question is morality then it can only do what is moral.

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
No it doesn't....

If the being in question is morality then it can only do what is moral. Would that mean that I should kill Egyptians to be moral?

Originally posted by Bardock42
Would that mean that I should kill Egyptians to be moral?

Do as I say, not as I do.

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Do as I say, not as I do.

He said that?

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
No it doesn't....

If the being in question is morality then it can only do what is moral.

IF, it is. but the sarcasm in the statement was supposed to hint that god ISNT morality.

Originally posted by Bardock42
He said that?

I think he did...

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
I think he did...

How do I know that he's not trying to trick me, though?

Originally posted by Bardock42
How do I know that he's not trying to trick me, though?

Ahh good point...if you just...sit still and don't do anything you can't do much wrong...then again...

'Morals' are a broad term. There are different kinds of morals. One kind of moral is an inherent tendency to think a certain way that stems from our biology, for instance seeing another human being killed will evoke a powerful emotional response in most people(there are exceptions but people who are indifferent to killing have a mental 'disorder' which separates them from the norm). There are other morals such as those against stealing which are enforced by society and and most people tend to follow them out of fear of punishment. I've never felt any real inherent impulse that would prevent me from stealing if the laws of society did not exist.

One can refrain from stealing out of principle however, and that brings us to the last kind of moral. The kind which we construct for ourselves. These kind of morals are based on reason, and we can continue to follow them in the absence of feelings. If your capable of having these sort of morals then that is the proof of your humanity, you are not just an animal being driven by primal instinct.

Looking down from the top, all morals are subjective, including those based on reason... for even those kind of morals have to include some kind of value or else they would be unrelated to the human condition. So there is no clear right or wrong either way. Theres nothing wrong with having personal values though, even if I cannot prove that my life has any value for instance, I still enjoy it and would rather that it not end yet.

Specifically, morality in our current society?



Everyone hates on religion. It's easy to point to the failings of various religious institutions, such as covering up certain crimes. But I'd argue religions institutions are infinitely valuable for instilling a moral framework on a populance, for which there is no alternative.



I'm reminded of a story I read about an author who was writing of the holocaust, and s family who survived it. The author was speaking with a Rabbi, and admitted the family was made up. The people did not exist, but was a vehicle to express experiences that many real people DID experience.


The Rabbi thought about it, looked at the author, and said "What you are attempted may be noble. But the fact is, what you are doing is called LYING."




Who else could tell this author that, and make him give pause? Who else would he listen to?




Who keeps us honest, if there are no moral leaders? If morality is for every individual to work out for themselves, then is it any wonder Enron could happen, or various Epstein could be out there, doing as they do?




Oh, sure, religion won't stop all of them. There will ALWAYS be psychopaths, especially in positions of power. But the fact is, the general public used to be heavily influenced by religious leaders, and the morality they learned had very real positive impacts on society. There is absolutely no alternative moral authority out there. No one to teach right from wrong, and therefore no one caring about right and wrong.

Parents and family influence. Teachers. Other authority figures. Pop culture. News. Pretty well anyone and anything that has a lesson on behaviour and the consequences/rewards for defying/conforming to the expectations and demands of a system structured on maintaining order and consistency.



Or God, if you're feeling lazy.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Parents and family influence. Teachers. Other authority figures. Pop culture. News. Pretty well anyone and anything that has a lesson on behaviour and the consequences/rewards for defying/conforming to the expectations and demands of a system structured on maintaining order and consistency.



Or God, if you're feeling lazy.


Parents: "I won't impose my values on my kids."


Teachers: "It's not up to us to raise those kids."


Pop culture: "How much money can we suck from those kids parents?"


News: "If if bleeds, it leads."




Yeah, no.


And "god" is a means, not an end. The main point, is people actually looked to religious leaders for moral guidance. If they were inclined to steal, that doubt in the back of their mind that god is watching them may give them pause. Or, if they're of a religion that doesn't believe in an ever present force watching their every move, the respect they have for their institutions leaders is usually enough. That author I mentioned, and the Rabbi's rebuke, is a thing that actually happened. The author cared about his Rabbi's opinion.



And that's the crux of it. No one really cares about right from wrong anymore. WIn at any cost, lie and don't get caught, do whatever it takes to get ahead, all' fair in love and war... All those moldy old sayings are things people actually believe, it seems.



I mean, how could Weinstein happen, if his peers admit they all knew. They should have acted against him, criticized him, put a stop to his sexual predator actions, done SOMETHING. No one did. No one cared.


Contrast with another Rabbi who found one of his own molesting children, and he went to the authorities. He didn't care what that did to his reputation in the community, or worry how anti smites might point to one deviant Rabbi and try to smear an entire community. For him, morality was everything, and he would NOT give a member of his own community a pass on it.



That's what we need, a moral authority that people respect. Traditionally, that has come from religion. No one else has comparable moral respect. Not teachers, not the media, not pop culture, and certainly not "permissive" "enlightened" parents.


You say religion is a "lazy" path to morality. Ok, I say, if not religion, then what?



Because no one turns to any of the things you mentioned, for moral guidance.



That's the fatal flaw of anti-religious movements. They point to flaws of religion, but refuse to recognize their utility. That's because they never thought to ask HOW to instill moral values. Ask WHY anyone would care about right from wrong. And then WHAT needs to be done, to ensure people start re-thinking telling that lie, or stealing that money, at EVERY level of society.

Originally posted by cdtm
Everyone hates on religion. It's easy to point to the failings of various religious institutions, such as covering up certain crimes. But I'd argue religions institutions are infinitely valuable for instilling a moral framework on a , for which there is no alternative.

The problem is that religion/God/holy books etc have gotten important moral issues wrong, like homosexuality. Also it's notoriously dogmatic and hard to amend. So why trust it?

Originally posted by cdtm
You say religion is a "lazy" path to morality. Ok, I say, if not religion, then what?

Science, b!tch.

Suffering is not preferred. So it makes sense to arrange morality around that. Why need it be more complicated? I just finished reading Sam Harris' book The Moral Landscape. A very good read on the subject...

Originally posted by cdtm
Oh, sure, religion won't stop all of them. There will ALWAYS be psychopaths, especially in positions of power...

He actually has a section in the book about psychopaths. Basically, you wouldn't consult an imbecile to design architecture for a building or perform a surgery or something. So why would you consult a psychopath in moral matters? Clearly that person is an outlier and severely confused.

Originally posted by cdtm
Parents: "I won't impose my values on my kids."


Teachers: "It's not up to us to raise those kids."


Pop culture: "How much money can we suck from those kids parents?"


News: "If if bleeds, it leads." Your thread titles asks where we get our morality. These places are where. Not "To whom do we turn for guidance" but "where do we get our morality". We're taught it, directly and indirectly from the things we encounter every day over the course of our lives---it's ingrained hard especially during childhood.


Morality itself is not a thing in the universe; it's an extremely arbitrary and complex set of semi-codified behaviours that we select for. Preferences for actions that generally are of a benefit rather than a detriment. Good and evil are fictional constructs we designed to define the tribal other. Where we learn to identify the traits of the evil "other" are from those we trust, are exposed to, and already identify with--parents, peers, teachers, community leaders, tribal chiefs, etc. It goes back to the earliest millennia of homo sapiens and is still with us.


No gods. No divine font of morality. Just fragile upright apes and the things they like or dislike.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Your thread titles asks where we get our morality. These places are where. Not "To whom do we turn for guidance" but "where do we get our morality". We're taught it, directly and indirectly from the things we encounter every day over the course of our lives---it's ingrained hard especially during childhood.


Morality itself is not a thing in the universe; it's an extremely arbitrary and complex set of semi-codified behaviours that we select for. Preferences for actions that generally are of a benefit rather than a detriment. Good and evil are fictional constructs we designed to define the tribal other. Where we learn to identify the traits of the evil "other" are from those we trust, are exposed to, and already identify with--parents, peers, teachers, community leaders, tribal chiefs, etc. It goes back to the earliest millennia of homo sapiens and is still with us.


No gods. No divine font of morality. Just fragile upright apes and the things they like or dislike.

Good post.

Morality Mohammad (PBUH)

Morality comes from a plurality of sources, that all intermingle to give you a greater whole than the sum of the parts. As a postulate to that claim, these various sources of morality are intermittent quality, i.e. literature offers a greater diversity of ideas, that evolve over time so if we weigh literature with a heavier weight, than other sources, when building our morality, it too can evolve with the times, whereas religion offers conclusions and dictates, both of which together lead to stagnation, which means telling modern people to live by bronze age standards.

Ive also always thought that morality is based on survival, in it's nascent stages, not necessarily truth.

An example of that from the bible are all the dictates from Deuteronomy, that say if you fall to follow these you should be stoned to death. So when it says dont eat shrimp or have long hair, that's not because god hates shellfish or hippies, it's because both of those things (eating shellfish and having long hair) promote disease.

This is mirrored in cultural taboos. An example of this is incest. Before birth control incest would lead to deformed kids, enough of these sickly children could collapse the gene pool and end the civilization, now there's birth control a moral argument doesnt exist for why incest is morally wrong, it just seems "icky"

To me, these isolated pieces of information show how morality can come from religion, specifically via doctrine, or through cultural diffusion, which as i said includes a plurality of relevant and ever evolving ideas. Once this is understood that you can get morality from places outside religion you have to ask yourself what the cost of religions existing in the modern world is at all and if they can provide something unique.

Here's a quote to add to my point.

"With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil - that takes religion."

Steven weinburg