Ultron VS. Juggernaut

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Abaddon
An adamantium robot (that took a team of Avengers to beat) against an impervious meta-human (that took a team of X-men to beat). I say ultron.

MERCILOUS
hmmm... you may have a point there Abaddon.

Tron
And how does Ultron beat Juggernaut? I'd like to know.

Beyonder
Disentagrator beam. Nimrod used one and blasted a steel railing near Juggy in their fight; Cain freaked the hell out and whined about it almost hitting him. Ultron could try his disentagrator beam.

Evangel94
Juggernaut's forcefield counters that arguement.

Beyonder
Yeah, like how his force field held up against Hulk right? Or how Nimrod kicked his ass around and knocked his helmet right off? Juggy FREAKED THE HELL OUT and stated in fear that that beam almost hit him.

Evangel94
Juggernaut never used his forcefield in any of his fights against the hulk, nor did he use it against nimrod.

It was also stated in later issue that juggernaut forgot he had the forcefield to use against nimrod.

That counters your argument.

Swanky-Tuna
Juggernaut's still a man. He has fears too. Has he ever been hit with disintegrator beam before? He doesn't seem to know the full extent of his powers considering he wanted to try wrassling Eternity.

Evangel94
Well, his forcefield deflected thor's almighty godblast.

The writer also stated that juggernaut only lost because he forgot he had forcefield.

Krissy Von Doom
Ultron's disintegrator beam is of the same calibre and power as Nimrod's?

Wynndar
no...Doom created Ultron's beam and Doom said it could disintigrate Thor in a millisecond...in fact when he blasted Thor he teleported and Doom assumed he just got disintigrated...there is no evidence Jugs forcefield would do anything to Doom's disintigrator, Doom said it was a device that destroys the orbit of subatomic particles and disintigrator was a simple word for it...there is no evidence Jugs forcefield would protect him from Nimrod either, or that Nimrod could not find a way to neutralize the forcefield, all we know is that Nimrod took his ass out...Id like to see where the writer said anything as garbage as Jugs forgot...if Jugs forgets his only defense to deadly weaponry then he is an idiot in a fight and it doesnt matter how many tools he has, he will always lose cuz he's an idiot

Krissy Von Doom
Okay. Doom kinda disintegrated Mephisto in hell.

Wynndar
by the way, Ultron has made some pretty ingenious plans in his past...He is a pretty formidable opponent using his brain too

JuggernautFan
lets throw the destroyer into the mix also. 3 -physically- indestructable beings going at it.

Tron
That may be true Wynndar, but there's also no prove that Juggernaut's forcefield wouldn't protect him from it, so that issue's up in the air. And it might difficult for Ultron to find a scientific or technological means of neutralizing a forcefield of mystical nature, unless it's been done before. And Evangel, was Juggernaut's forcefield actually up when Thor blasted him, cause I don't remember them saying anything about it?

And JugFan, just make a damn Destroyer thread already and be done with it, lol.

Wynndar
well thats a good point about no proof that the field wouldnt defend Ultron's beam...but it is possible
a) he used it and it didnt work against Nimrod.
b) he couldnt use it against Nimrod
c) like evangel says, he forgot about it and he is an idiot and a horrible fighter, strategist

regardless, all these things has convinced me that Ultron and Jugs would be a good match...I dont want to be partial to either one of them. Hulk has damaged Ultron before, thus I think it is possible for Jugs to MAYBE muster enough strength to do the same; Im still of the "Hulk is stronger than Jugs" opinion. Jugs and Ultron are both really durable, Jugs is inexhaustable unless he gets his ass kicked. Ultron runs on a nuclear reactor...they both have Thor/Hercules type endurance. Ultron is the better strategist for sure though.


About Destroyer...maybe there should be another thread..but u have to make sure u define who is control of the Destroyers armor.

spyrokinesi35
I'm saying ultron would find a way to beat him, but there's no friggin way he would be him without his weapons or technology

Swanky-Tuna
Ultron IS technology and weapons.

I'm up in the air though. I like Juggernaut. I like robits. I won't choose!

Arsenal
Oh yes you will! You will because Aunt May demands it!

MERCILOUS
Why does everyone insist that juggernaut is near Hulk strength. It's true that Hulk is rated 7 and Juggs is rated 6, but people should note that these numbers rise in an exponential fashion. Juggernaut is near the half to the bottom of his 6 rating while Hulk is near the very top of his 7. When Hulk "hurt" ultron he was at the peak of his power. Ultron has also survived a combined blast of all the JLA's powers. There's no way that Jugs could hurt Ultron, and in return there's no means that Ultron wouldn't try to destroy Juggs. Ultron wins this one

emraldguardian
Every encyclopedia i have and every web site says the hulk and juggernaut are rated at 7 and their able to lift over 100 tons.

Swanky-Tuna
Heh, when talking to my friend about Juggernaut he said "Juggernaut doesn't have a limit. He's always as strong as he needs to be."

I'm not sure if he means Juggernaut is really strong or written wonky.

spyrokinesi35
ultron is just as, and possibly stronger and tougher than colllosus, but he' still not invincible

Wynndar
he is not as strong as colossus...he is more durable

wrathofachilles
The highest limit is 'above 100 tons.' The rankings stop there. That in no way means Juggernaut is Hulk's equal. It means he can lift over 100 tons. Hulk can lift over 6 million tons *and theoretically more.* As for Ultron vs. Juggernaut, Ultron doesn't seem to be used very often. I wonder if the writers can't think of ways to beat him, lol. I imagine this would be a draw, but it is possible for Juggernaut's forcefield to be broken. Whether or not by Ultron is another matter.

Abaddon
Ulrton FACT: Ulton is constructed out of Adamantium (indestructable metal). Ulton has never been "physically" beaten.
About Hulk and Jugs having a Strength of 7, Hulk has held up a mountain (secret wars), Jugs has not.

JuggernautFan
it doesnt matter if jugs "has not" held up a mountain. its because he has never been under one.... please state a comic where he has been put in that position to prove himself. when has juggernaut ran into something he could not lift/move/tug/push/topple ???? never (aside from onslaught of coarse).


hulk did not hold up the entire mountain. iron man blasted out a section and hulk braced what was over top of them from caving in. into the spot that iron man blasted out.... he did not support 150 billion tons.

JuggernautFan
and you know his forcefield can be broken because..... wait i have the answer, its pure speculation on your part. glad we could clear that one up wink

Abaddon
ok, but you still don't speak whether or not jugs can damage adamantium

JuggernautFan
i dont know if he can or not..... so why would i speak of - if he could or not.

for most intents and purposes adamantium is indestructable. hulk has apparently dented it??? so has thor??? so why not juggernaut smile

juggernaut -most- of the time has proven himself just as strong as hulk. he has an easier time with like opponents, proves himself strong against hulk himself. so far hulk has never been enraged to the point to where he has shown his dominance physically compared to juggernaut. i dont think its likely that he will either. battles are always interupted before they get to that point.

MERCILOUS
'Cause Juggs isn't as strong as Hulk or Thor.

As for your earlier comment, if Juggs was put under a mountain, He'd be there unitl more weak writing set him free.

Wynndar
Jugs was under a small mountain and it took him 10 years to get out

MERCILOUS
Really? Do you know the issue?

JuggernautFan
yes he was under a mountain but his wasnt a whole. he was actually under a bunch of rubble. much harder to grip a ton of sand than a solid rock. dont you think smile

JuggernautFan
of coarse, now you are running on the "stupid writing" which is strictly your opinion. cant you come up with anything better than that??? when has thor or hulk ever proven stronger than juggernaut??? come on thats your OPINION too.


even if you dont think juggernaut is stronger than hulk it should be quite obvious he is stronger than thor...... thor always gets beat up on (except that one out of the multiple fights they have been in) in which he depowers juggernaut.

MERCILOUS
If it was all rubble, He would only have to lift what's directly above him.

JuggernautFan
but what hulk had directly above him was one solid chunk. what fell on juggernaut was not 1 solid chunk. so in the words of hulk he wouldnt have had "leverage".

MERCILOUS
Sure he would of, the weight would have been considerably less. Hulk could punch his way out.

JuggernautFan
oh come on................. you would not have leverage under a bunch of rubble. how old are you again???? go bury yourself under 8 tons of sand then go bury yourself under one boulder (provided you could move 8 tons) which are you going to have more of a chance of moving....... the one solid chunk.

MERCILOUS
One would need less leverage in a pile of rubble. Just the other day i was trapped under 2 tons of bags of cement and i wiggled my way out, but i just couldn't do anything 2 months ago when that car landed on me.

JuggernautFan
lol, i bet...

MERCILOUS
Seriously though, trying to approach this in a scientific way, if you can stand up under a mountain, i seriously doubt there's any difference on wether it's rubble or solid. And if you want to take more into consideration, a mountain being lifted by a center should crumble all about itself. I'm just not seeing the difference here. I once read a comic where hulk was supposedly pushed to his limits lifting some ridiculous (this may be the same reference) rock so the rest of the heros could escape. If he can stand up under the whole of the weight being united, he wouldn't need to stand under that much weight being in rubble form.

JuggernautFan
well, try to think about this....... iron man blasted out a pocket as a mountain was being dropped on the heroes in the "secret wars" series. when the mountain fell, hulk braced what was directly over them so it didnt cave in...... into the pocket so it didnt kill them. he didnt support the weight of the whole mountain.


now scenario 2. break that mountain up into millions of pieces. could hulk have caught it?? or could hulk have stopped it from caving in on them??? no. he wouldnt have had any leverage to catch several pieces. he would have been crushed or taken a VERY long time to dig out. you cant push all those pieces at once.

MERCILOUS
ok, i'm still seeing all this rubble in effect actin as one. A more realistic example (than me being under a car) would be cardboardboxes piled on top of eachother, you lift the bottom ones the top ones have nowhere else to go but up (at least for a cave in type effect.) Yeah there's probably no where for you to go after there's too much off to the sides though. On the other hand, years? I hate to do this but; if jugs can break dimensional barriers due to physical strength what's a mountain of rubble?

JuggernautFan
you havnt read the story arc with juggernaut breaking dimensional barriers have you??? he doesnt walk around at that level of power all the time. but he does have access to it. its juggernauts "true potential".

JuggernautFan
plus when he was burried, it was when he first gained his powers. he knew next to nothing about it.

MERCILOUS
No i have not read that story arc. I understand that basically every character has had changes in there power. I have never seen Juggernauts "true potential." It is my understanding that his strenght, and strength alone, cannot reach that of the Hulk's or Thor's and is actually beneath She hulk's amongst others such as Hercules, Ulik, Mister Hyde.

JuggernautFan
where do you get your information from??? the imposternaut could beat up she-hulk....


thor has never physically overwhelmed juggernaut either. do you read these comics??? if you read hulk/juggernauts first encounter they describe hulk as "being on the virge of insanity" with rage. yet he wasnt stronger than juggernaut....... hulk had been contained in a cell built by hulkbusters and was raging for nearly 2 days pounding on the walls with no strain put on them. yet when they teleported hulk away and juggernaut materialized...... he hit those same walls and they began to stress outwards as if they were going to burst. where as hulks punchs had no visual effect on them just moments before.


so again, where do you get your information from?

MERCILOUS
i don't know who the imposternaut is, i can only assume he's jugs imposter. It doesn't matter that none of the stated have never overwhelmed juggs. that's the nature of jugs power. Put 'em in a weight lifting contest, Thor will win every time, as will Hulk and even She-Hulk. I don't remember where i get my information from. I own some 1.500 comic. About 30% of them are marvel and my collection is somewhat sporatic. I stopped reading most marvel titles some time ago, so if my information is outdated i can understand. But totally inaccurate is absurd.

JuggernautFan
sadly its juggernaut....... the one that is depowered and appearing in the x-men (as part of the team).





1 she hulk isnt even as close to being in the same strength class. where the hell did you get that from??? also, does hulk send thor hurtling across the sky with a backhand?? does hulk exhibit that kind of strength (yes that is a feat of physical strength also). does hulk hit hard enough to drop thing in 3 consecutive blows????? these are the only thing that you have to compare is punching power, and juggernaut is just as strong if not stronger than all the rest. his upper limits are not known and it is a well known fact that hulks base strength starts at 100 tons........ so who is stronger?? atleast initially?





this would explain atleast some of it...... to get the whole story you usually have to collect story arcs/mini series. juggernaut is a very worthy opponent in strength to hulk. even marvel directly compare them by name everywhere you go as the 2 strongest beings on the planet. so how is she hulk and thor in with these 2???






i'd say that its pretty inaccurate considering marvel states that hulk and juggernaut rival each other as earths 2 strongest characters. so why do you insist on including thor (which is still debatable) and she hulk (70 ton range) which is completely absurd........

MERCILOUS
Thor for damn sure. As for the rest, the Sandman comes and i can resist his call no more. I'll check my sources and get back to you later.

wrathofachilles
Probably because Thor did it. Not much speculation on that. Besides, what good is his forcefield when people manage to defeat him in spite of it?

wrathofachilles
Aside from the recent Thor comic that you mentioned which I haven't read, they only fought physically twice. Thor won 1 and Juggs won 1. The #412 was basically a physical draw. Juggernaut is not stronger than Thor. He is comparable, but not stronger. As for the mountain, yeah I'd say Juggernaut is capable of holding up a mountain, depending on the size. Obviously we're not talking about Everest here.

wrathofachilles
For the 10th time...no wait, 11th, Thor HAS physically overwhelmed Juggernaut. We talked about this. He just did. Thor is either superior to or equal in strength to Juggernaut. Jugs has the ability to punch his way through dimensional barriers, but that is not so much an act of raw strength as his mystical powers. Surely you must concede that Hulk has the capability of superior strength than Juggernaut, everyone in the Marvel Universe has said nobody compares with Hulk at his highest level, but he doesn't punch his way through dimensional barriers. You can't do that no matter how physically strong you are; that's a magical feat.

As for She-Hulk, you're right that she doesn't belong among the others. She's nowhere close to their level.

Tron
Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Hulk punch through dimensions at some point? Just a question.

Okay, Hulk has the potential to be stronger that Juggernaut, but, that still has yet to be shown. In their fights, they're pretty much equals in physical power, even with Hulk raging. So until they show an issue where Hulk totally gets to the point that he overpowers Juggernaut, I'd say that their strength very much rivals each others, no matter what y'all may think. And like it's been said, Juggernaut's strength limit is still unknown, so there's no saying just how far Hulk would have to go before he's finally stronger than Juggernaut.

And Thor didn't break Juggernaut's shield, he blocked Juggernaut's power, breaking the shield would've been something different all together. And I would say that in their fights, Juggernaut was stronger than Thor (except for the power drain of course). Thor's strong as hell, and definitely the better fighter, but Juggernaut's just over him in physical power. And unless you're talking about when Thor cut his power from him, when did he overwhelm Juggernaut physically? Besides the godforce?

And to stay on topic, unless Ultron can pull a Nimrod or something like that, then I think Juggernaut's just as capable of bending adamantium as Hulk, just my opinion though. Maybe if he had prep time, he has a chance, but I don't see it though.

Wynndar
Hulk and Juggernaut are not praised as Hulk's strongest characters...When marvel or anyone for that matter describe Hulk, they do not mention "he's about as strng as Juggernaut". That is a device they use when mentioning Jugs...like in x-men or on the back of comic cards, they say he is comparable to The Hulk in strength. It does not make him his equal. From the perspective of Comics, Hulk is the strongest...he has deomstrated again and again he has no equal. Jugs has demonstrated that he is one of the most resistant to injury...he is very strong...he displays "unstoppable" characteristics. He is not as strong as Hulk. Hulk is the strongest which is plain to see...we dont need to go into that right now. Thor has lifted Jorumungad, a serpent that encircled the enrtire Earth...Hercules has held up the entire island of Manhattan...Jugs is highly resistant to injury and unstoppable like i said, but he has never demonstrated the pure strength of these three...I will admit he is really strong, but there is no evidence in comics he is the strongest on the planet.

Tron
Maybe, he's still strong enough to give Thor and Hulk hell, invulnerable or not. He hasn't been shown to do many of the feats that the ones you mentioned have, but then again they've never put him in those situations. He's the villain, they don't put him against the odds like the rest, he usually IS the odds. And I never said their strength is equal, I meremly said that they rival each other in that respect. Hulk may have shown more feats of raw strength, but that's never been the case in his fights with Juggernaut (minus War). They've so far been shown to match each other blow-for-blow. Like I said, I agree that Hulk has the potential to overpower Juggernaut, but it would never be easy for him to though, cause Juggernaut has the potential to go well passed the level of power that has been shown. That's a big hurdle for Hulk to jump, no doubt that he's capable, but still a big hurdle. And I would still put Juggernaut up there with Hulk, Thor, Hercules, and most others based on how he handled himself with the first two before.

MERCILOUS
Nah, I think the problem here is that Juggs goes to to toes with all these superheavy weights because of his durability. Yes he has enough strength to harm them, but all these guys he's fighting are a step above him when it comes to strength. Let's try to put it like this Hulk strength 10, durability 8. Juggs strenght 8, durability 10. This makes it pretty even. Now, what happens when Hulk turns his strenght dial up to 11? Ultron's durabily i'd have to put at 11. In "acts of vengeance" a weakend Thor sends jugs flying back with an uppercut during his forward movement. On the other hand, Ultron has stood up to the strongest attacks of the Avengers combined. Juggernaut could not ding Ultron. He's not as strong as Hulk or Thor his durability just makes him a worthy opponent. Eventually Ultron finds a way.

JuggernautFan
no....... thor did not penetrate it.. he negated it. there is a difference.

JuggernautFan
he depowered him.......but when he engages physically he gets beat






he is very strong no doubt. but generally juggernaut is stronger. a backhand sends thor flying across the sky?






me and wynndar were just discussing this. its open to interpretation also






yes, i've said it before and i'll say it again. hulk has the potential to be stronger.





but this means squat... hulk was "on the virge of insanity" and raging for nearly 2 days but was no stronger than juggernaut. explain that please.





but juggernauts powers manifest physically anyway. he doesnt explore any other of his powers...... except unstoppability. again that applies to his whole body yet his fists were what was doing the barrier smashing.






i know i'm right


laughing

Tron
I agree with you to an extent mercilous. His durability is a big factor no doubt, his durability is nearly as unlimited as Hulk's strength, but I wouldn't say it's the only factor when dealing with other heavyweights. He has to be strong as hell to even be a match for someone like Hulk, otherwise he'll be the indestructable guy that gets slapped around all the time. I'm not overestimating Juggernaut, but to say he can't dent Ultron like Hulk could is kinda an understatement, cause he definitely has the potential for it.

Krissy Von Doom
A single punch from Juggernaut wouldn't dent Ultron but if he gets Ultron in a corner and repeatedly wails on him, Ultron is headed for the scrap heap. I think.

spyrokinesi35
adamantuim is not invincible you can break it smash it or liquify it (you just can't burn it)

Maelstrom
A plasma cannon stops him dead in his tracks.
It's fair to say that all a disintegrator is going to do is push him backwards.
Is Doom's magic. That might kill him. Jugs is susceptible to mind and magic.
Heck a little boy with a book of curses could defeat Juggernaut. raver

Krissy Von Doom
Thor hammer, mjolnir, uses magic. Juggernaut seems to do okay.

wrathofachilles
Yeah but when Thor breaks out his godforce, Juggernaut is stopped. Magic can't stop Juggernaut unless it's a supeiror magical force. There are few superior magical forces than the Gem of Cytorrak. The hammer in general is not superior until it produces actual focused magics, like the godforce. Thor's recent rune powers would be sufficient to stop Juggernaut, but they haven't met yet. As for Ultron, I think he'd give up faster than Juggernaut would. But adamantium cannot be broken spyro, only dented.

Havoc470
i've only seen few people stop juggs, if ultron has an ultra-sonic frequency attack then he wins without a doubt, as nimrod has knocked juggernaut unconcious with that before, and as long as you could go to other dimensions you could always banish him somewhere which thor and dr. strange have done before, and of course if you have telepathy, although juggs has a helmet its not completely impossible to take off especially with someone like ultron

i dont know all of ultrons strengths and weaknesses so i cant really say who would win

Krissy Von Doom
Yes. I was just replying to the post that said Juggernaut was susceptible to magic. But anyone would be susceptible to Thor's godblast.

Nataku8188
Measuring anything by marvel's site makes your points completely ignored. No offence, but check some of the stats on there, its all bullshit.

MERCILOUS
Your "sends him flying" arguement is week. If you produce more momentum than what your opponent weighs he's going to fly. Bruce lee can send people flying too, people much much stronger than him. Thor makes Jugs fly and Jugs is "unstoppable." A far more impressive feat by my standards.

spyrokinesi35
1. it's not just any magic it has to be of SUFFICENT (that means at his lvl) strength
2. it's not magic its mystical force

MERCILOUS
Yeah, i've tried hard to discredit them myself. But the fact remains that Jug's strength is an entire step below the Hulk's and Thor's. Besides many of these "dentings" that people are talking about have occured on a depowered Ultron. He's not 100% adamantium anymore. He loses a little power everytime he evacs out of himself. If we're gonna talk about jugs at his best then it's only fair we do the same for Ultron.

Tron
THe big question is though, is there prep involved for Ultron? If so, that may give him a chance at making the proper tech to help take down Juggernaut as Nimrod did. If there's no prep, then I don't see what chance Ultron has.

MERCILOUS
But the thing is, with or without prep, i don't see a chance for Jugs.

Nataku8188
Why not? There is no proof that Ultron has any form of weaponry that can stop Jugs.

MERCILOUS
There isn't any proof that he doesn't. And as was stated before Ultron is much smarter than good ol' Jughead. Ultron actually has a chance of finding a way where as Jugs will just scratch his head and wonder why.

JuggernautFan
well sonics isnt the key here...... nimrod may have confused juggernaut with those but thats not what did him in. it was a futuristic weapon and that alone should be enough to conclude that ultron doesnt have it....

MERCILOUS
future smchutuer. Ultron has gained access to the best weaponry. It really shouldn't be that much a difference (although i can't prove this one.)

MERCILOUS
DISINTEGRATOR BEAM!

MERCILOUS
did i spell that right?

Havoc470
nimrod didnt confuse juggs, he completely knocked juggs out, and i think ultra-sonic sound frequencies are something almost about anyone in the MU would have

Swanky-Tuna
Juggernaut's mystical powers have defied science to keep him alive before, I vote it does it again but with more flare this time.

Maelstrom
From what i understand about the Juggernaut is this.
He is not immune to magic in any way, shape or form.
Nor is he immune to telepathy in any way.
He is invulnerable without his magic shield up.
When he puts up the shield nothing touches him. Essentially it takes an all damage points blow.
I think you people have elaborated a little too much. Ha i bet that sounds stupid coming from me. laughing raver

JuggernautFan
the sonics are not what defeated juggernaut. it was a futuristic weapon that jammed his neural impulses which effectively paralized him. sonics would do nothing more than confuse him. try to stay with me here smile

JuggernautFan
the best weaponry of what time frame though??

MERCILOUS
THEE FUTUUURRREE. That sounds really cool in my head. But *ahem* If doom can invent time travel, it really shouldn't matter. Terminus is from the future. As are his other counter parts amongst other characters. That kind of weaponry probably already exist in the MU. Ultron likes big guns, he's bound to find something (although all of this is admitedly speculation.)

Havoc470
lol, i understand you but the way it went down in the comic was cut and dry, nimrod see's juggy, he has to take him down (i think it was his objective to take down the xmen and anyone involved with them) they start the dance, juggernaut gets his helmet smacked off, crazy purple beam shoots out of nimrods hand (and you know how they specified everything back then lol) which comes in contact with juggs head and he falls to the floor, i could only imagine nimrod turning his head towards the rest of the xmen and all the members are like 'O_O we're dead" lol

Tron
For those that don't know, it was actually two seperate devices that Nimrod used against Juggernaut; tight-beam high-frequency sound waves that attacked his mind and nervous system, and a synapse dislocator (or however it's spelled) that jammed his neural impulses. If Ultron could duplicate something like that then he has a chance. That would probably come down to prep though, I'm not sure if Ultron has anything like that readily available.

Havoc470
O_o when i read the comic all i saw him use was the ultra-sonic sound frequency beam, then juggy fell to the floor......does anyone by any chance have pics of this comic so i could see it again, in case i'm missing anything

MERCILOUS
I say prep time doesn't matter. Ultron just goes away and comes back with different things until something works.

Havoc470
lol, good point

Maelstrom
I like Ultron. I think hes at least as smart as the vison and at least as powerfull as Juggernaut. I know he has some vulnerable spots but his multi dimensional attacks might destroy a bodysized space in the shield then he could tear into Juggs.

Wei Phoenix
Cain Marko should win.

Knowsbleed33
Juggernaut breaks him.

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