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Well how many people agree with the societal norm of a woman taking a man's last name. I mean I can trace my family history better than any woman ever could. I think women SHOULD take their husband's name though if they don't it really complicates things like taxes, trips etc.
So what do you guys think?

A woman doesn't HAVE to if she doesn't feel like it... currently.

Personally, I feel it should not matter. It is merely traditional to take the mans surname

Since I have a brother who can carry on my families last name, if I was to marry a woman who was an only child/had only sisters and therefore traditionally could not carry out the family name, I am willing to change mine.

It doesn't matter.

Really... who gives a shit. If I ever get married, I won't care whether or not my wife takes my name. It means nothing. It's just a name. I think it's a little presumptuous of you to say that you can trace your family history better than any woman ever could. Just because a family's last name has changed over generations isn't to say it can't be traced. I know what my grandma's maiden name was, and her mother, and I'm sure I could find out with a little research what her mother's maiden name was. Yeah, you have to look a little harder, but it can still be done.

Yea but your grandma's maiden name was originally her father's last name. It started with a man.

Yes, but I don't see the relevance of this as it relates to a woman changing her name. Obviously that's the traditional way to do it in this country. But every country has its own naming tradition... Like in Iceland, kids get their father's first name, with "dottir" or "sen" (I think it's "sen" tacked on the end. I don't see your point. If they feel really strongly about keeping their last name for some reason, there's nothing wrong with letting her.

That's true. But that's just not how I feel.

Which is fine. I am only giving my opinion, as well.

a woman shouldnt have to take their husband's last name...
i mean... it is afterall... HER name...
though it makes no difference to me whether they do or do not. i just dont want to see it being forced.

It's up to the women. If/when I get married, I may or may not change my name. I don't know yet. But I don't see why women SHOULD do it. And, FYI, there are men out there who change their last names to that of their wife.

And, pray tell, how far can you trace your family back? Because I can trace mine back about 300 years to Ireland, England, and Scotland; I have immigration records from the 1840s and the 1910s when various members of my family came over here from Ireland and the UK.

Yea but even so, you're just gonna be using the maiden names of your grandmothers who had their father's name. It's harder for women to trace their last name to that of the woman they descended from since she took her husband's name and automatically lost hers.

who cares?
It's still a woman's choice. Who cares about the greatgrandmother's name... or if it was taken from the husband?
The woman should still have the right to choose whether or not to take their husband's last name.

Just because they don't have their original last name doesn't mean it's lost or forgotten They keep records of these kind of things, genius.

No you don't understand what I'm saying. Ok lets say a woman marries a man and it is the first marrigae ever somehow. She takes his name and all his descendent and hers will at some point have to take his name until they get married and change their names. The bottom line is that the first woman's last name is gone and her descendants will never know it. It's just an example.

The taking of the last name is essentially a ownership branding!

It's up to the woman.

I'm not going to get married until homosexuals are freely allowed to wed, but if the country eventually wakes up I will marry my girlfriend, and I will take her name.

It is up to the women.

Its her choice whether or not she wants to change her name.

She does not have to change her name if she doesnt want to.

But personally she should take the surname of the husband. She doesnt have to, but she should. I know if I ever get married I would want my wife to take my name, but I would make her or anything... or really pressure her. I don't like my own last name all that much, i wouldnt force it upon my new wife. But, if she did take my name I think that means a lot too... I dont know, maybe not... Its kind of a moot point anyway

If it were a problem for her I would understand, but If she loves you and it is like the expected thing to do I would feel somewhat rejected if she didnt want the same name. Its not a big deal... but whether or not she wanted my name would matter to me. I think its kind of wierd actually that you guys are like "oh whatever i dont care"...

They dont have to, they should, and i would like for my future wife to.

Me too. I like your dancing troll Kosta.

When you are married you are bond as one.I think we should take our husband names.There is nothering wrong with having there names.Or if you don't like it let people call your old last name first and then your husband's name second.
I really don't see the big deal of taking your husband's name it does not make you any different nor strong or weak.
My parents have different names because they never married but I have my dad's last name and because my stepfather went to court for this his last name before my real last name.Giving me two last names very confuseing.I am going to fix that when I am eighteen.JM

I don't see the big deal here. She can always divorce and get her last name back. The last name in a marriage is only for law matters. No biggie.

When I got maried we joine dthe names together... this has led to my son being nicknamed "Shotgun" at school....

Ok for one thing why would a woman not want to take her husband's name?Does she have feelings for other guys that she wants to prented she is not married?
When you become marriaged you become one and you gain a new name.I really think you guys are being silly about this whole thing.What is so bad about having your husband's name?
As much as I hate it when woman does this you can do it anyway.You can call yourself MS if it brothers you so much.But really guys get a grip we have alot of freedom and being married should be a great thing not a bad thing.
I mean it is your choice to be a home maker or go out to the work place.It has nothering to do with something as stupid as wanting to keep your old name.
JM

How does not taking your husband's last name mean that you want to pretend that you're not married? You don't necessarily gain a new name by marrying someone. Lots of women keep their last names, and it's not because they "have feelings for other guys or want to pretend she's not married". Your argument is nonexistant.

Ideally I would prefer it if my wife took my last name...or atleast do what John Stamos did.

but ultimately it's up to the woman...and I'd support her wishes.

No offense, but that's quite possibly the worst reasoning I've ever heard on this issue.

If she had feelings for other guys, she wouldn't get married in the first place, goldilocks.

Exactly what I said, Nivek...

Its easier on the kiddies... hyphens just get messy

Personally, I plan on taking my husband's name eventually when I get married, so it's a must that I like his name

Yes that is true but what I am asking is why not changed your name?What is the harm of that?That is basily my question to all of you girls who are Ms out there.
Keep the Ms if you want but have your husband's name.Also I am not a blond I have black dark hair!JM

Society's norm? Did you ever wonder who makes the societies norms? Thats right - men.

No i dont think she should take husbands name if she doesnt want to.

Why doesnt a man take woman's last name? Then it would be equaly easy for womem to trace their roots.

If the woman does NOT take the husbands last name, then their child (if they ever have one) will not be sure whether they should call themselves by the mother or father's surname. This would be bad for the child as they would be more unsure about their self identity and just who they are.

Better than any woman ever... so you are omnipresent and able to see across time as well as being a sexist dick. Amazement all round.




Please oh godlike time traveler - explain to me how "trips" are complicated by this? Unless you mean drug induced trips - which might at least explain the content of your post.

Oh, that made me laugh.




Thats rediculous. Is your self identity determaned by your surname?

And what we're saying is why change your name? What's the harm of keeping your maiden name? Guess what, Jackie, there is NOTHING saying that a woman HAS to change their name to their husband's. It's totally our choice to do so or not, it's not something we have to do. I think you need to wake up and realize that this isn't the dark ages anymore, JM.

Changing your name is a very personal decision. Some women are very comfortable doing so while others are not.
There are several alternatives available.

Option 1: Taking your husband's name
Option 2: Keeping your own name
Option 3: Hyphenating
Mary Smith who has married John Jones would become Mary Smith-Jones.
Option 4: Adding your husband's name to your own
Keep your birth name and add your husband's last name.
Option 5: Use each other's names as middle names



Now, a lot of women are marrying later, after establishing careers. Retaining your birth name when having established such a professional identity eliminates the problem of giving up that identity.

I took my (ex) husband's last name. I don't think I gave up anything.

At that time, of course, I didn't realize I was making an incredibly stupid mistake.

Oooh your words cut like a knife boo hoo. Dickwad

Im not worried if I hurt you - I just want an answer to the questions - clocks ticking caveman....

When married couples travel they share the same last name on passports, airplane tickets etc and when they don't share the same name it can be confusing to airlines and businesses when you papers say you're married but you have different last names.

yea it is going to get nasty.
i do NOT want to take my husbands name if i everget married because a women sould have a right to keep there name if they want to.
I like my surname hawthorne is a cool1.

That's cool, do what you want to.

I don't think they have to but they should. I would be offended if they didn't want my name. It is socially what I have come to expect.

Why not ask the reversed question. Why should (hypothetically speaking) a man not take over his wife' s surname?

Some men do.

The answer to your question is because it's simply tradition for the male to carry on the name of his family and all that crap.

Where the hell does on a pasport ask if you're married or not? And cant girlfriend and boyfriend go on holiday together? What about freinds? Who asks whom if they're married, maybe they're having an afair...beside the point, its still rediculous.

And if someone asked me to give them the stupidest reason why a woman should take husbands name - that would be it.

I would be offended (not to be mean, you can do what you want). But it sounds like you want to keep your name as a protest or for some other selfish reason. People are breaking tradition just to make a point which I find to be stupid. Its like saying, "Sorry honey, but I have to make a point by not taking your name and disgracing your family."

Names are very much a part of a person' s identity and heritage. If you feel that the refusal of your wife to take over your name is disgracing your family, then accepting the name is like your wife is disgracing hers.

err actually thats not the reason i have a sister and we are both girls my sister won't keep her name so i have to or we will loose our family tree thats all.

You don't have any males in your family??? Unlces, cousins with the same last name?

Don't get all excited, and it is confusing when people tell insurance companies that they are married and have last names. A woman having her last name could be a liability when, she might have a lot of trouble getting the money she deserves.

I strongly agree. women are getting carried away these days. aside from this issue, tha things most women want nowadays are actually NOT equal to wut men have.

There are many reasons why this is...one for example is that as a gender, they feel a "freedom high" when they are breaking a traditional rule. its like when you get your first job and your money isn't just from your parents, or when you get your first apartment....you feel free and on your own without ANYONE even SLIGHTLY above you. to be honest, if i was female...i would sit here and type "OMG I'M SOOO KEEPING MY NAME". noone wants to feel oppressed, take any kid for example and tell him/her they cant like girls/guys cuz he/she is too young - they'll definitely not like anyone telling them that.

We guys can't understand it because we're...well...GUYS. women aren't stupid, but they are usually oblivious to wut causes them to think in tha ways they do - if they are right it HAS to be tha only way and it HAS to be right by all means.

Many of you said it didn't matter, in actuality - everything matters. it would surely be a huge slap in my face if she rejected my name. also, there is no just reason for doing so. many of you didn't understand tha concept of "if she doesn't take tha name she prolly likes other guys"...wut i think he/she meant was that even though its not a direct clear statement...that wife is suggesting something unacceptable .

If you decide to not take his name just so you can rebel...you are increcibly influenced by stupid women who go too far to get their sence of freedom high. if you decide his name is ugly, then you're simply a ***** for going against a tradition because his name isn't to your liking - you might aswell slap him everytime you explain to someone that you kept your own name.

I agree that some things were unfair to women , and that feeling of triumph over oppressors or wut i call "freedom high" has created a new false sense of rightiousness in tha new generations of women. its just gone WAY too far.

I'm not saying shut tha **** up and go to tha kitchen, i'm saying babe open your eyes and just love me back.

Nope we diddn't take my dads name we changed it.
My mum was a teacher and she diddn't want people takin the piss out of her name because it was Haw..so we changed it to Hawthorne and the rest of the family are called Haw and were the Hawthornes and i want to carry that name on for them because the cances of my sister doing that are like 10000-1.

Well that's cool. Now that you explained it.

ok cool.

id never force it on her but id be dissapointed if she refused, but luckily in my case she told me she'd be honoured to take it, yippee!

*dances around room like giddy child*

seriously though, its tradition, and goth i agree with u pretty much.

Except for people don't view it as a disgrace. Stepping out of the norm is what is frowned upon.

Then perhaps it's "the norm" that needs to be changed.

I personally don't care either way. If I ever get married I'm not going to give two pieces of rat shit whether she wants to have my name or not, it's her decision and I definately see where she's coming from. I wouldn't want to change my last name, so I'm not going to try and make her do it just because it's "the norm".

If she does want to, that's fine. Either way it's a trivial matter to me.

I agree that it would be fine if it weren't the norm. And maybe the norm should change. But I'm a guy who likes to do many things based on tradition, so 'for me', I would be offended. I'm not saying people can't do it. Sort of like, the "norm" wedding includes a white dress, tuxedo, big fancy cake, and the whole celebration that I'm sure most of you invision as well. I am just one of the people not willing to step out of tradition for certain occasions. Traditional marriage (the norm) is important to me. Therefore, I would be offended by any woman who claims to love me yet is unwilling to take my last name.

i wasnt gonna post in her cuz frankly i dont care one way the other....to each is own ...what ever is best for the couple is whats right...i took my husbands last name only cuz i liked it better then mine....still do . he didnt care one way or the other .

im posting now and qouting this post cuz i disagree...just cuz a woman does NOT take her husbands last name doesntgive their children idenity crisis..

children are not that fragile . they are born...you choose based on whats best for your family which last name he/she should have then thats it . they dont care . children care about one thing and thats having a family that is together . mommy and daddy are together or at least happy and have a good partnership then they are happy....only way i can think of them NOT being sure of who they are based on their last name is if the parents make an issue out of it . if there is a divorse and one parent goes back to a previous name before marrige , then maybe the child would be confused as to what name to have .

if they have had different last names since the begining...it really is no big deal . children are stronger then that . i wished more people would realize this .

I agree. And personally I think it is a rather outdated social norm to expect a women to take her husbands name, after all, she is just as deserving to honor the name of her family, her personal identity, or just chose to retain a name that is clearly belongs to her. And I mean, why not have the husband take his wife's name? It's all about choice.

Carried away?
It is because of people that think like you that peole similar to you are doing their best to opress women! Stop being so sexist!

Women ARE equal to men, desite what you or any other sexist might think!

I cant even believe you wrote that? How in the hell are women not equal to men? Why? Why are they not, pelase give me ONE good reason as to why women are not equal?

Christ! We're in 21st century and there are people who still think and live in 12th.

You are comparing the gender inequality to something so ridiculous i cant even begin to rip it apart!

Why cant women be equal to men? Because you and bunch of other men need to feel superior over someone!

I have no time or patience for people who wear their insecurities on their sleeves like the badges of honour!



Oh great superior one! Please explain to me as to how did you conclude that utterly ridiculous conclusion?!



AS already said in the, taking a husbands name is a form of ownership branding! I and many other women sure as hell dont want to be owned by NO man!
Get a grip!



I don't care if you or any other man find it hard to know what women want these days; I don't care if you are angry or frustrated because someone (us) changed the rules while you weren't looking and forgot to send them a goddamned memo. Get used to it. Or get a cat.



Gone too far?

It's a well-known fact that the Y chromosome is an incomplete version of the X chromosome. It's truncated and has less DNA. Which means that (loosely speaking) men are really just imperfect versions of women.

Get used to it sweetheart. Noone is gonna take your name, and it will die out together with you and your old fashioned attitude.

*Claps
Very good response.

yup.

First of all.....LOL. second of all, wow where do i begin.

I dont know what got into you....maybe you are a prime example of a new generation of women i was describing who want more than equality. you didn't fully comprehend tha paragraphs you qouted and pounced on me assuming i said more than wut i was saying.

If you read carefull, i didn't even say women are not equal not men..i said "tha things most women want nowadays are actually NOT equal to wut men have".

I dont know you, so therefore i cant feel sympathy for any harm an oppressive male may have caused you. i simply cant decipher why you have so much anger that you are being so closed minded about this issue. women asking for freedom SHOULD be responded with nice men who are understanding....yet women like YOU aren't understanding to us. why do you treat me like an enemy? why is it IMPALED in your head that we want tha worst for you?

I do believe in equality, to a degree. just because we are in tha 21st century, doesn't mean we should go insane. sure women should have some freedoms, but when you get married...you're not doing so to remain an individually free-on-your-own-lady. a marriage is a sacred bond of two people and as tradition holds - tha man's name is given to tha wife. that by all means is no symbol of ownership. why would anyone even think that it is a symbol of ownership?? it was originally designed to keep track of a persons ancestry. giving women that ability while giving it to men would complicate things. so if one gender is to be able to do this...why not leave it like it is? plus, women can benefit just as much from it as men can. if men and women are both equal...wuts wrong with passing on our names? cant you just let it be as it is?

Quite frankly, you need to change just as those sexist males needed to change. fist you need to calm down and realize that not EVERYTHING means that you will be oppressed. like i said, not taking your husbands name is a slap in his face - someone who by no means wants to own you by giving you his name. its pure insanity...women are truly getting carried away. i'll go out of my mind if i think of wuts next.

My theory of "freedom high" couldn't be explained better by people like you. i respect women for protesting on understandable issues...but those days are over. women keep repeating tha scene for liberation over and over and now younger generations of women are not only disgusted by tha past, they also ***** about every little issue today that are actually NOT designed to oppress women. that is one of tha SICKEST things going on in our world because it is so hidden and not understood in our society. and poor little girls who had horrible experiences with assholes for guys, suck in all this coupled with their hatred and ultimately make tha good men suffer.

If there is a true right cause, its to make women such as yourself understand that they are manipulated by society into wanting too much...just to attain a liberated sensation. Karma is real, all guys are suffering in this generation and tha generations to come because of our dumbass male ancestors.

milla...i love you girl omg...it hurts to laugh this hard .





seriouslly though....i was thinking about this more and i seen it posted that even women who keep there own name got in from a man....well is that to say that the first woman who had a last name....got it from a man ? cant prove it...but i serioully doubt it

I hope you dont misunderstand my post as you did before. i really feel for suffering women since i've seen my mom suffer all my life. that is partly why i support many freedoms women have and should have.

But at tha same time, you can't let one bad apple spoil tha bunch. most guys dont truly understand wuts happening and will either go against womens liberation like tha sexist assholes they are..and tha others will just do wut women say since women have such a strong over-powering voice in our society.

I disagree with strong over-powering voices because they always start out right....but end up far from it. and that is tha real issue at hand. a simple gesture of a mere last name triggers immense emotion in todays women who are programmed to think that there are and will always be countless things keeping them from ever truly being free. it just sickens me that women are made such fools and how most people dont even comprehend this issue.

You can take my words and believe wutever twist your mind puts to it. my voice alone is far too weak to ever be heard outside of this thread...understanding that i have no expectations. i just hope intelligent women such as yourself will one day realize tha truth.

first of all lil i think your readin too much into this, its nothing to do with ownership or sexism, even when i am married and if my wife has taken my name i would never assume that i own her, in fact i would be extremely honoured if she did that for me. its not sexistat all. Yes men and women are equal, and that chromosome thing was a cheap shot big time.

Uber feminist without a cause.

EDIT-P.S I knew it would get ugly.

i dont really see what the big deal is. its not like when a woman gets married heir last name dissapears forever, it just becomes their middle name.
now some will say, "boo hoo, what if they like their current middle name and don't want their last as their middle?" well, then why do they want to keep at as their last, surely if their is something wrong with their last name, so they wouldn't want it as their middle, how could they possibly what to deny their husband's last name? and i may be wrong, but i think that when a woman gets married they don't have to put their last name as their middle.

Actually I am not reading too much into it. Thats exactly why sexism exist in the first place, because when someone tries to speak up against something like this, they are ''overreacting'

Is that another way to shut me up? ''You're overreacting, shut up and go away!''

I dont think so - I refuse to live in a world where every man is a god and every woman is a vessel waiting to be filled. No way, no how.

I might as well just go ahaead and be a full time lesbian - man these days are very rarely not sexist - not that i need a man to feel secure and be happy. Now I even have to take his surname? Dont think so.

you really have never met a decent guy have you?

And she never will with that attitude.

If i was truly manipulated by the society, i would be agreeing with everything you have said in the first reply.

But I'll say one thing If a man has any character, he will not have a problem with a smart and capable woman that doesn't let men push her around - and that is the only kind of man I want to be with. Too bad so many think like you.

yeah, but nowadays women can do as they please and get away with it all in the name of feminism, us guys are getting royally screwed because of our ancestors. its a double standard.

Oh right, yes you are correct, I have a shitty attitude, im bitter and sarcastic and a man hater. You read me like a book. Bravo.

If you don't like it, go find someone to talk to who won't upset you by having a brain.

Ok. But...you are kinda bitter.

"If you read carefull, i didn't even say women are not equal not men..i said "tha things most women want nowadays are actually NOT equal to wut men have"."

You said "wut". Therefore I will now disregaurd everything you say.

Darling, oppressive males aren't tha only ones that manipulated society. that was my whole point - that any cause can go insane and slowly slant towards being more wrong, than right. which is wut happened to tha femanist movement. in actuality you ARE manipulated by todays' society. every girl that has been done wrong by a man, is taught more to hate men with facts about women's oppresive past. now we have women like you everywhere displacing their anger as well as over-analyzing small things such as receiving their husbands last name and putting way too much emotion in it. like i said, ultimately...your SON will suffer.

When a group of people are suffering, they fight for wut is right...but wut happens when they accomplish their goal yet they still have millions of new women who have displaced their hatred for a few bad men, into changing anything that they wrongfully believe oppresses women?

A man's character should not be judged on whether hes gona totally supportive to his wife...it should be based on wut hes supporting because face it women can be wrong.

I wana be with a woman like you, but a woman smart enough to differentiate tha difference between old tactics to oppress women and some ever-expanding liberation group that has gone far outside of its original objective. that same liberation group that influences millions of women like you to STRONLY believe it is right...but disgracing is tha total opposite.

haha!! Priceless!

Wut is obviously slang for What. so wuts tha difference? if you mean most people that type like that are stupid and generally have biased opinions..and you are associating me in that group..then you are just as wrong as my male ancestors who thought all women were stupid.

I'd like to add that you strong women can really hurt a sensitive guy's heart. and we're tha ones that are supporting you most of tha time.
something i cant really say when some ***** is doing so in real life.
Not that i was hurt, but tha way you wrote reminded me of this.

^ Directed to lilbitchiness.

I don't believe a woman wanting to keep her original last name is "going insane". You're blowing it way out of proportion. If anyone is overanalizing the importances of the name change being a necessity, it's you. It's a trivial matter. If you are really upset because a woman wants to keep her own last name, then you must not be a very secure guy.

Perhaps you could understand if you put yourself in the shoes of a woman who is about to get married. Would YOU want to change your last name just because it's "tradition"? Doubtful. (lets face facts, most "traditions" are stupid and are only done because people are equally stupid and aren't comfortable with changing said traditions to conform with todays society, and the different ideals that are extracted from it.

And how the hell will a child suffer if the mom keeps her last name? Sounds like a bunch of shit to me.




They're not changing anything. They're simply saying that THEY themselves don't want to change their last name. It's not like they're saying ALL women should/must do the same. It's their own decision to decide what is done with their last name, despite how much you'd like to think that you're say should matter.



If you're not going to support your wife just because she is not taking your last name, then you are destined to be a bad husband. Women can be wrong, but there is nothing wrong with wanting to keep your original last name. I know I wouldn't want to change my last name if the tradition were switched up, I doubt you would either. So I can understand where they are coming from. Just because you don't agree with something doesn't mean it's "wrong". If anyone is wrong in this matter, it's you, by insinuating that women shouldn't have a choice in whether or not they want to take the mans last name, that they should do it just because it's "tradition" and for some dumb reason you will be offended if they don't.




So what if they strongly believe it's right? Let them keep their last name and move on, no ones making you change your last name. Perhaps they see the taking of a husbands name as an old opression tool and aren't comfortable with it. Since it was done in the old times to prove that the woman was the mans property. It's understandable.

Again, just because something is traditional doesn't mean it's right. Most of the times traditions are stupid and only continue to exist because they are traditions.

Whoa, you mean "wut" is slang for 'what"? Holy shit, I didn't know!

I know what it's slang for, it makes you look dumb and lazy, take the extra nano-second and type the word out properly. It's stupid retard internet speak. I don't know where you got the "biased opinions" thing. I never knew that purposely misspelling a word to save a billionth of a second means you have could have a biased opinion.

If you're heart gets hurt because some woman doesn't want to take your last name, then you need help.

Look buddy, this issue between me and lilbitchiness was a little outside of our topic. most of wut you replied to such as tha whole insane thing, was not about tha simple last name issue. i was speaking broadly, as she was. again, i dont know where to begin.

First off, maybe YOU dont feel like its a slap in tha face...but i would. and many have also said they would in this very thread. i see your so understanding to women, but not understanding to tha other gender. by all means, tradition is not always good. but in THIS case, a name is not that serious. therefore if she loved me, i dont see how taking my name means she is branded as my property. perhaps you feel that it is a tool for making women our property, and that is your own sick belief. however that doesn't justify you saying that all men would use that as a means for making women their property.

Take ANYTHING that a man is supposed to do as tradition, if tha man does not do it...i assure you tha wife will feel unhappy about it. why? because its like rejection.

And i wasn't over-analyzing tha issue, i was saying wut i thought causes women to put too much emphasis on this and relative matter. quite frankly, it is a serious matter because it is linked to how women feel nowadays towards men which is why i spoke so broadly.

I also, didn't say "a child suffer if the mom keeps her last name". sounds like mis-understanding to me. i said many women that have suffered at tha hands of men earlier in their life were led to be objectful towards issues that dont really oppress women.

Your lack of comprehension is straining me mentally....if anyone cares just read my previous posts and if you dont get it...too bad so sad. i hope one day you'll realize, if not...too bad so sad.

I wish you're idiocy humored me. when i said my heart gets hurt, i was referring to tha way she writes, not her perspective.

If you knew wut tha slang meant, then you shouldn't have said anything. if you thought I use slang because it makes me lazy to type 2 letters as oppose to one...you're sadly an idiot. its an alternative to another word which i've gotten used to. since it doesn't take away your billionth of a second, i am yet to see how it bothers you. you knew wut it meant so just keep it at that.

Your understanding on both accounts was very idiotic, if you ask me.

Jesus Christ, way to misread what I said. I didn't say I see it as a tool for making women property, I said it was ORIGINALLY a tool to show that the woman was now the property of man, and that SOME women may still see it that way. I know people don't view it that way now, but that is how it came to be.

You claim it's not a big deal, then you go on and say that you're all insulting and offended if she doesn't want your name. Contradiction. If it isn't a big deal then you would not get all freaked out if a woman didn't want your last name.

Also, you think I'm understanding of women, go ask lil bitchiness how many times she's called me sexist. In fact, take a look in my profile under the things I dislike. You will see that I dislike "Bulldyke feminazi's". Yeah, I'm really understand to the whole womens right movement.



That's an assumption, and an unfounded one at that. You don't know that the way women feel about the topic is linked to how women feel nowadays towards men. Maybe they just like their last name.




Then, there's this....

"now we have women like you everywhere displacing their anger as well as over-analyzing small things such as receiving their husbands last name and putting way too much emotion in it. like i said, ultimately...your SON will suffer."

You said "your son will suffer". That's what I was reffering too.



Oh that's a cute little saying, kiddo. "Too bad, so sad". I have a feeling that trying (and failing) to put up a valid argument is what's straining you mentally.

Well perhaps you should learn to write more clearly, it's very necessary when giving statemetns to actually elaborate on what you mean to say. If you ever wish to be a good speaker/writer/debater, you will need to learn how to do this. The whole making a vague easily misunderstandable statement and thing trying to throw dimwitted insults at the person who takes it a different way then you're original intention because of your poor and vague wording isn't going to fly. Just a friendly little lesson for you.

I'm the idiot, yet you still continue to type out idiot speak and dumbass slang by using "wut" instead of "what". Yeah, I'm a dumbass for using the actual word, makes about as much sense as you're poorly constructed arguments about the "taking the last name" topic. The fact that you've gotten used to typing words incorrectly, and don't have the brain power to type it properly anymore (since you've gotten used to it) shows which one of us is truley the idiot here.

And no one did ask you, nore is your opinion valid or sound. You may think my "understanding" is idiotic, but your inability to construct sentances to detail exactly what you are attempting to say is pretty idiotic in my book.

Oh boy not you again, i'm gona have to reply one by one on this one.


"Jesus Christ, way to misread what I said. I didn't say I see it as a tool for making women property, I said it was ORIGINALLY a tool to make show that the woman was now the property of man, and that SOME women may still see it that way. I know people don't view it that way now, but that is how it came to be. "

>Just because you explained that some women see it that way, does not mean it SHOULD be seen that way. Sure it could have been used as a means to make women property...but guys have changed...so should tha expectations be changed? hell yes. and you were talking about how women would feel about it NOW, and then you say "I know people don't view it that way now". I think you, yourself misread wut you were saying before.

"You claim it's not a big deal, then you go on and say that you're all insulting and offended if she doesn't want your name. Contradiction. If it isn't a big deal then you would not get all freaked out if a woman didn't want your last name."

>No, not contradiction. Tha whole issue is not a severe deal, you were taking about dismissing it if she didn't want to keep tha name. I, on tha other hand am saying that i would feel rejected if she decided not to take my name. it is still a meager issue, however tha big deal is that women are wrong to go after meager issues to satisfy their hunger for a liberated sensation.

"Also, you think I'm understanding of women, go ask lil bitchiness how many times she's called me sexist. In fact, take a look in my profile under the things I dislike. You will see that I dislike "Bulldyke feminazi's". Yeah, I'm really understand to the whole womens right movement."

>You talk about my contradictions? and you have tha nerve to type that paragraph? You're totally supporting women and read how you type. anyone would agree you are understanding to women. tha fact that i didn't know that you are oppose to many things is due to tha fact that I DONT KNOW YOU. your huge opposition to women taking husband's name is contradictory to your claim of disliking femanists.


"That's an assumption, and an unfounded one at that. You don't know that the way women feel about the topic is linked to how women feel nowadays towards men. Maybe they just like their last name."

>Uh i do know that if someone posts with comments as lilbitchiness did. she didn't want to keep her name just because she likes her last name. it is so damn clear, have you even read her posts?


"Then, there's this....

"now we have women like you everywhere displacing their anger as well as over-analyzing small things such as receiving their husbands last name and putting way too much emotion in it. like i said, ultimately...your SON will suffer."

You said "your son will suffer". That's what I was reffering too."

>You moron, earlier in my posts i said that "ultimately, men will suffer". i didn't think she got that point so i said "her son would suffer" to make it so she would better understand since she would love her son.

"Oh that's a cute little saying, kiddo. "Too bad, so sad". I have a feeling that trying (and failing) to put up a valid argument is what's straining you mentally. "

>No, i repeatedly tried to put my point across and you misunderstood and mixed up most of it. that was my frustration. i didn't fail to put a valid argument. i put it enough times, you are just asking me shit that would lead me to RE-TYPE wut i've already typed in ways where i would have to answer your questions AND get my point across. sorry no can do.

Your finding some bullshit to dismiss my points to favor your own...then you go and say you are against tha femanist movement and are sexist. you lost credibility to even argue with me, if you ask me...i think you've got some other agenda.

"Well perhaps you should learn to write more clearly, it's very necessary when giving statemetns to actually elaborate on what you mean to say. If you ever wish to be a good speaker/writer/debater, you will need to learn how to do this. The whole making a vague easily misunderstandable statement and thing trying to throw dimwitted insults at the person who takes it a different way then you're original intention because of your poor and vague wording isn't going to fly. Just a friendly little lesson for you."

>Well if you're not an idiot, i dont see why i should need to elaborate so much. I elaborated as much as someone of average intellience would need to get a grip of wut i meant to say.

"I'm the idiot, yet you still continue to type out idiot speak and dumbass slang by using "wut" instead of "what". Yeah, I'm a dumbass for using the actual word, makes about as much sense as you're poorly constructed arguments about the "taking the last name" topic. The fact that you've gotten used to typing words incorrectly, and don't have the brain power to type it properly anymore (since you've gotten used to it) shows which one of us is truley the idiot here."

>Your reasoning makes no sense. if people understand wut tha word means, then why would i need to change how i type? to impress YOU? lol you are no one to tell me how to type. we type to get our points across, not look very educated with perfect spelling. if that was tha case, this would be an english class. and for thinking i am incapable of writing what instead of wut just because i continue to type "wut", makes you an idiot to a new degree. i dont care who looks like an idiot, but if it comes down to that...i dont think an intelligent person reading this would consider how someone types tha word "what" to come to their conclusion of who's smarter.

"And no one did ask you, nore is your opinion valid or sound. You may think my "understanding" is idiotic, but your inability to construct sentances to detail exactly what you are attempting to say is pretty idiotic in my book. "

>Okay, i'll give it to you. you type better than i do. that by no means you are more correct than me because you type better. if you believe so, you are only proving how dumb you really are. it is how one thinks and reasons that makes them correct. so go ahead and type in detail your false reasonings. do it in great spelling and grammar. you'll still be wrong...in MY book.

And your opressive nature doesnt hurt sensitive women? Please, i am not hurt because I have a brain, and i know how to use it.

Why are you grouping me in that oppressive men group? see how you are trained to wrongfully assume things?

Please read my posts, i am supportive to womens rights...i just see that it has gone out of hand.

"Just because you explained that some women see it that way, does not mean it SHOULD be seen that way. Sure it could have been used as a means to make women property...but guys have changed...so should tha expectations be changed? hell yes. and you were talking about how women would feel about it NOW, and then you say "I know people don't view it that way now". I think you, yourself misread wut you were saying before."

Yes, guys have changed, thus so should expectations. And so should outdated traditions, such as thinking it's some sort of insult towards you that she doesn't want your last name.
Again, the fact that it was initially made to have women take the mans last name to show them as property may bother women into not participating in the process. Even if they know that that's not the case anymore.

>"No, not contradiction. Tha whole issue is not a severe deal, you were taking about dismissing it if she didn't want to keep tha name. I, on tha other hand am saying that i would feel rejected if she decided not to take my name. it is still a meager issue, however tha big deal is that women are wrong to go after meager issues to satisfy their hunger for a liberated sensation."


If she's willing to marry you and spend her life with you, are you really going to have a hissy fit because she doesn't want your last name? It's her right, her decision, and a woman isn't making this decision to hurt you, they're making it because they either don't agree with that certain stipulation, or they simply like their last name. You should not take it personally.

"You talk about my contradictions? and you have tha nerve to type that paragraph? You're totally supporting women and read how you type. anyone would agree you are understanding to women. tha fact that i didn't know that you are oppose to many things is due to tha fact that I DONT KNOW YOU. your huge opposition to women taking husband's name is contradictory to your claim of disliking femanists"

It wasn't a contradiction, I put it in there to show you that I don't have my views because I'm some feminist loving hippy, but because I can actually UNDERSTAND where they're coming from with their feelings on this matter, regaurdless of my feelings for the feminist movement.


"Uh i do know that if someone posts with comments as lilbitchiness did. she didn't want to keep her name just because she likes her last name. it is so damn clear, have you even read her posts?"

Well then that is when you make a specific statement at lil that isn't a broad generalization of numerous women that is blatantly incorrect and based soley on one person.

">You moron, earlier in my posts i said that "ultimately, men will suffer". i didn't think she got that point so i said "her son would suffer" to make it so she would better understand since she would love her son."

Again, it's not my fault that you have poor wording. How was I supposed to know that you were reffering to an earlier statement in an earlier post, you made no reference to it. Can't blame me for sloppy writing.

"No, i repeatedly tried to put my point across and you misunderstood and mixed up most of it. that was my frustration. i didn't fail to put a valid argument. i put it enough times, you are just asking me shit that would lead me to RE-TYPE wut i've already typed in ways where i would have to answer your questions AND get my point across. sorry no can do."


Again, poor wording on your part is no fault of mine. Jumbling sentances and using sloppy grammar that makes your sentances and points difficult to grasp is not my fault. I got your basic argument about the topic, i was this. "I will be offended if my future wife doesn't take my name, because I feel she's rejecting me, even though she's willing to spend the rest of her life with me and marry me". Sorry, that's dumb.

"Your finding some bullshit to dismiss my points to favor your own...then you go and say you are against tha femanist movement and are sexist. you lost credibility to even argue with me, if you ask me...i think you've got some other agenda."

Sexist? No. Against the feminist movement? Somewhat. Against man hating he-she's who see everything as a power struggle? Hell yes. Also, I'm not "finding" bullshit in your points, it's just sorta there.

"Well if you're not an idiot, i dont see why i should need to elaborate so much. I elaborated as much as someone of average intellience would need to get a grip of wut i meant to say."

You don't need to elaborate "so much", but you do need to distinguish and make clear exactly who and what you're reffering too. Making a vague statement that could be taken numerous ways is just sloppy writing. And to call someone an idiot for taking a sloppy statement the wrong way is very childish, blaming them for a fault of yours.


">Your reasoning makes no sense. if people understand wut tha word means, then why would i need to change how i type? to impress YOU? lol you are no one to tell me how to type. we type to get our points across, not look very educated with perfect spelling. if that was tha case, this would be an english class. and for thinking i am incapable of writing what instead of wut just because i continue to type "wut", makes you an idiot to a new degree. i dont care who looks like an idiot, but if it comes down to that...i dont think an intelligent person reading this would consider how someone types tha word "what" to come to their conclusion of who's smarter."

So then do it? You know why it's dumb to type "wut" instead of "what"? It serve no purpose. You said you do it because your "used to it", that to me means that you are to lazy to type it properly and not sound like a 10 year old child who's trying to save some time. If you want to continue using stupid slang then be my guest, just don't ***** when someone makes fun of you for it, seeing as your bringing it on yourself by using a useless slang term.


"Okay, i'll give it to you. you type better than i do. that by no means you are more correct than me because you type better. if you believe so, you are only proving how dumb you really are. it is how one thinks and reasons that makes them correct. so go ahead and type in detail your false reasonings. do it in great spelling and grammar. you'll still be wrong...in MY book."


Of course your book is written in a sloppy manner, books written poorly don't go over very well, do they?

Sooo, lets disect your reasoning shall we...

-Women should take a mans last name because it's "disrespectful" to men not to, and because you will be offended and see it as the woman "rejecting" you despite the fact that they would be willing to spend the rest of their life with you. This doesn't make much sense.

-You claim that wording and proper sentance and paragraph structure and the like isn't important, despite the fact that if you don't make solid, readable, understandable sentances, you're points won't come across as vividly as they could. Then, you insult the person who misinterprits a point you made because of sloppy wording. This doesn't make much sense.

So, I reject your reasoning AND your poor wording, and you reject my reasoning but accept the fact that my wording a sentance structure is better then yours, thus, indirectly that means my point will therefore come across more poigniently and without much of a chance of misunderstanding because of jumbled words. Okay, sounds good.

Yes, guys have changed, thus so should expectations. And so should outdated traditions, such as thinking it's some sort of insult towards you that she doesn't want your last name.
Again, the fact that it was initially made to have women take the mans last name to show them as property may bother women into not participating in the process. Even if they know that that's not the case anymore.

If they know its not tha case anymore, and they know tha husband isn't doing it for oppresive purposes and they still decide to not take their husbands name. there is clearly something wrong with her. her hatred for wut happened to women in tha past, is more important than following a tradition that doesn't hold tha same sexist value. its not about whether tha tradition started out bad or not, its about wut it stands for now. and in todays society it does NOT stand for anything bad so by all means she SHOULD take it. and just because you wont feel rejected if she rejects your name, doesn't mean we're not secure for thinking otherwise. not everyone should be like you, get over yourself.

If she's willing to marry you and spend her life with you, are you really going to have a hissy fit because she doesn't want your last name? It's her right, her decision, and a woman isn't making this decision to hurt you, they're making it because they either don't agree with that certain stipulation, or they simply like their last name. You should not take it personally.

For a moment i would be hurt yes. Just because it is less significant than her spending her life with me, doesn't dismiss tha issue automatically. it is her decision, but her decision IS going to hurt men because they have no just cause for making such a decision. i could see if carrying your husbands name was a sign of oppression TO THIS DAY. but it isn't like that anymore...so wut is her reasoning? because her hatred over our PAST and just rebeling for tha hell of it is more important to her than her love for me and how i feel about her rejection?
we cant live in a world like that. with an attitude like that we might as well round up a masculine movement to save ourselves as they saved themselves from us.

It wasn't a contradiction, I put it in there to show you that I don't have my views because I'm some feminist loving hippy, but because I can actually UNDERSTAND where they're coming from with their feelings on this matter, regaurdless of my feelings for the feminist movement.

Heck, i understood where they're coming from too. i've also stated in my first post where they're coming from. but understanding something doesn't mean it is automatically right. and if you're oppose to tha movement, how can you support many of their reasoning? your whole presence is contradictory.

Well then that is when you make a specific statement at lil that isn't a broad generalization of numerous women that is blatantly incorrect and based soley on one person.
Again, it's not my fault that you have poor wording. How was I supposed to know that you were reffering to an earlier statement in an earlier post, you made no reference to it. Can't blame me for sloppy writing.

It wasn't that broad of a generalization. you're going out of bounds when trying to make me look dumb. this is a forum, you can read her inputs as well as mine. when she says something and i respond, you can see both of our posts. how was my statement broad towards every women when i repeatedly mentioned "you"? referring to HER . obviously if you read posts one after another you would get that. it isn't sloppy writing, i just dont write like some robot like you're stating. i write with tha expectation that tha reader is smarter than backfire and can understand wut is going on in a thread.

Again, poor wording on your part is no fault of mine. Jumbling sentances and using sloppy grammar that makes your sentances and points difficult to grasp is not my fault. I got your basic argument about the topic, i was this. "I will be offended if my future wife doesn't take my name, because I feel she's rejecting me, even though she's willing to spend the rest of her life with me and marry me". Sorry, that's dumb.

Oh god damn, sorry english teacher but you cant even spell sentEnces right. jeez you need to get a life. i already told you that you can write well. though this is not an english class, just because you write more clearly doesn't mean your A+ results in me being incorrect. and if you think it is dumb, then fine but as i'm not alone in feeling rejected...your opinion doesn't matter.

Also, it is human nature to feel rejected even if she'll spend her whole life with me. just like its wrong to tell your wife she looks fat in that dress....your argument which is...to say "but i'm still with you honey, why are you hurt that i called you fat"...is purely RETARDED. emotions can be hurt regardless of tha fact that they are spending tha rest of their life with you.

Sexist? No. Against the feminist movement? Somewhat. Against man hating he-she's who see everything as a power struggle? Hell yes. Also, I'm not "finding" bullshit in your points, it's just sorta there.

Well you totally proved to be an idiot because i feel tha same about man hating women who flip out on little issues that have nothing to do with oppressing women in todays society. you have no solid argument against me backfire...your name itself hints that you're probably just having fun debating with me. but clearly you are wrong and you will stay that way on this issue.

I duno wut your agenda is, maybe you're trying to score points with lilbitchiness or w/e...you just need to drop it. i think we've beat tha hell out of each others perspectives. i cant change how you feel and you cant change how i feel. i just hope i enlightened some womens' minds on this issue. that is to say if they totally read ALL my posts on this thread with full comprehension which you obviously did not.

Since the whole "if a woman doesn't take her husband's name when she gets married it's like a slap to his face" argument keeps coming up...let's try this one. Has it ever occured to you (the people who say that) that being expected to give up her name is like a slap to the woman's face? Your name is part of your identity and who you are. It keeps being said that women who don't want to take on their husband's name have no good reason. Well, men who expect their wife to take on their surname have no good reason, either. Me, I don't know yet if I'll change my name or keep mine when I get married. But I don't know why it would be such a big deal if I did decide to keep my name.

it isnt a slap in the face, the problem is when a woman does it solely because she thinks its sexist and is trying to Be all liberated and shit. guys and girls were brought up to believe certain things, some girls imagine the whole big white wedding thing, everyone has certain ideas of what a wedding and marriage is like. if a girl says no, then its fine, just make sure its for the right reason and not for some temporary feeling of empowerment.

Women should be all liberated and shit. All women need to understand that noone gives you power - you just take it.

And if we all waitied for you to ''liberate us'' we wouldnt be anywhere near where we are now in society.

Power isn't something you have to take. Assuming we are talking about real power - power over onself - then it's something you simply have. Oppression is when you are made to forget that.

lil did u even read my post properly?

Yes, agreed. And many women are made to forget that due to the thinking and ideas some people have in this thread.

In the sentance abve I was refering to gender inequality. Im not saying that women should be doing what men are doing now, because thats only a role reversal and isnt solving any ineqality issue.

Yes I have. ''When she does it because she thinks its sexist...''

And the above post was my answer to that.

lil i have no problem with women being strong and independent at all, in fact i believe all oppression is wrong. all im sayin is that bein feminist for the sake of bein feminist is bad, if a woman decides ok, she dont want his name, and its a genuine feeling in her heart, then fine, but if she goes and reads some article in cosmo that tells her that doing something like this is letting a man oppress her, then its bullshit.

See, this is what i dont get. Who is being femenist just for the sake of being femenist.

Femenism is an ideology, a set of ideas, call it wahtever you want, and people who are femenist are people who agree with those set of rules.

Thats like saying - oh yeah, hes being a Nazi for the sake of it. What the hell does that mean?

So if I read an article in Cosmo that tells me that Stalin was a murderer and I decide i dont like Stalin, thats bullshit - but If I read it in the Times literary supplement its valid info and any decision I make is ok.

In any case - Cosmo isn't exactly the feminist manifesto many scared men think it is.

first of all, different people are influenced by different things, some people are intelligent enough to know what they want, and some people are sheep, they'll go with whatever trend is fashionable at the time. I know feminism is an ideology, but there are different extremes of it, thats all. im just sayin is that when it comes to a decision as the one this thread is about, some women would let outside interference dictate their decisions, which is wrong. gender wars as a whole are going to shit. im just saying if a woman declines to take her husbands name just because she thinks itll make her independent shes wrong. its the little things that make a person who they are.



i didnt mean to say it was, i just was using it as an example.

..but then I read what Zero has to say, and my faith in men somewhat returns...

lil, do u think all us men make it a point to oppress women?

if a woman doesn't want my last name, shes getting a beating until she takes it whip

seriously though, it's just tradition. if she wants to break that, then it's no big deal a man that truly loves his wife won't really care, because there's more to a woman than her surname

Hmm..well I kinda think Zero isnt..from what hes saying.

Also my sociology lecturer...and there are few others i can think of, so no not all men - but a majority do.

first of all i dont. of course i would want my gf to take my name when i marry her, but its more for a feeling of being closer than ownership. if she decided not to, then sure id be disappointed, but id deal with it. i just think the whole womens rights/feminism thing has gone a little ott to be honest, its heading the way of a complete reversal, which would be shit. ive no problem with being equal, but nowadays i think its being taken too far in some ways.

I would put another option in, neither would I clearly say 'no', nor 'yes', because imo both should be possible - and it is these days, thank god

true

If you want to convince me that this is true then swear to me now that you will take her name. That you will insist on it. Shouldn't matter to you because it's not about ownership - its about closeness...

Yet the idea never seems to have occurred to you - why?

I'm not attacking anyone, but their point of views.

With that said, lilbitchiness..your point of view is wut sprouted from millions of women suffering from oppression.

Once tha basics were outa tha way like voting, owning property, job oppurtunities....women started to go too far by targeting anything left over that WASN'T in any way making them suffer.

Bent on getting a sense of freedom by "liberating" themselves from stupid lil shit. tha result is women with unusually strong oppositions for everything. i mean you cant even say "men are physically stronger than women", without hearing some ***** go on and on.

Not takin husbands last name/not doing housework/etc is tha full blown result. women should have rights and should be free to some extent, for men and women were not created by God as equals.

We are NOT equal, if we were equal then men shouldn't carry heavier loads, be more protective of women, show chivalry, etc.

I'm not saying that women are not important, i think women are more important than men for they bear children. men can be sacrificed with less "loss" than women. but by all means, we are not equal...men will always be superior, we were meant to be. if not, our bodies would have been tha same...women would be equally powerfull, we would think equally, etc. we are superior for a reason, either ask God or evolution why.

But tha saddest part of all, is guys who feel overwhelmed by the femenist womens' voice. without totally thinking throughly, they say anything to make women happy and shut up. that isn't truth, that isn't being honest. thats just going with tha flow to keep from getting bitched at. I on tha other hand and guys like me, wont let women go too far.

"If you feed a dog a piece of a steak, it'll surely want tha whole. and another" I used that example because it was quick to think of . but that is wut has happened with tha femenist movement.

"we are not equal...men will always be superior, we were meant to be. if not, our bodies would have been tha same...women would be equally powerfull, we would think equally, etc. we are superior for a reason, either ask God or evolution why."


HAHAHAHAHAHA!! What a load of shit.


"But tha saddest part of all, is guys who feel overwhelmed by the femenist womens' voice. without totally thinking throughly, they say anything to make women happy and shut up. that isn't truth, that isn't being honest. thats just going with tha flow to keep from getting bitched at. I on tha other hand and guys like me, wont let women go too far."

Yeah, and women who want to keep their last name and don't want to live in teh kitchen are going to far I guess. "you won't let women go to far", like you have some control over them. They'll do what they want and they have every right to. Grow up, kid.

Its almost funny how you call me a kid for my views when many many adults have and do share it. plus growing up has nothing to do with my veiw.

Also, my WHOLE argument was that they are given too many rights and you responded by saying "They'll do what they want and they have every right to". they have every right because we gave them the right...obviously. Think outside of tha box man. tha box women put guys like you in.

I agree with old fashioned femenists that opposed issues that really mattered. like a single woman not allowed to work or own property is just horrible. but tha stuff that concerns tha issue today is just plain retarded.

I dont wana be with a woman that'll reject my last name. some guys have agreed with me which shows wut we want. clearly women said wut they want....so it cancels each other out. leaving only tradition. so tradition stands.

it has, i never said it didnt, and id be happy to take it, if i could pronounce it.

Jesus Christ! You need to open a book or two before you open your mouth!

You need to pick up some books and get educated. Then come back and preach to me!



Oh I see your problem! you are too afraid of a woman who will have a brain because women with bran seem to intimidate you.

When will chauvinist male oppressors stop breeding?!



And I dont believe in God, so what now? Are you gonna tell me that something i dont believe exists made me not equal to YOU?

Not only am i equal to you, I am superior to you - in spelling and in evolution.



Understand this, kid, women in this age dont even need men! We dont even need you to have children - GET A CLUE!



You are a fascinating creature: I don't know whether to laugh at you outright or pull out my abnormal psychology reference manual to see how you rate for your narcissistic, chauvinist and antisocial behavior.



And yeah, im sure If you can scrounge up another brain cell, you might captivate us further... but I doubt it.

You need to get over this little fantasy world you live in - or go away, and look for a brainless wonder of a woman who will not intimidate you with her brain and her intelligence you oh so evidently fear!

lil i think its really terrible you have such a low opinion of us guys, some of us are decent and open minded if u'd take the time to get to know us. we dont all make it our mission to oppress women, and its definately not as many guys as you think.

"Its almost funny how you call me a kid for my views when many many adults have and do share it. plus growing up has nothing to do with my veiw."

Adults can still have a childish and stupid mentality, case in point, thinking men are "superior" to women. You call it "thinking outside the box", I call it "stupid". Think whatever you wish.

"I dont wana be with a woman that'll reject my last name."

From the sound of it I don't think you're going to have to worry about that, you probably won't find a woman that doesn't come out of a bordello with the attitude of "men are superior to women". I doubt girls are breaking the door down to have a relationship with you.


"When will chauvinist male oppressors stop breeding?!"

When women stop mating with them. Hopefully soon.

Lets get one thing straight, i dont hate men, i just hate assh0les - i cant help it if theres such a high correlation.

Besides, i have as much patience for dumb ass women who are willing to put up with this kinda men, as much as i have for those same men.

Ignorance pisses me off no end, regardless of gender.

okay then

how do you know exactly what makes women suffer? indeed, being part of a society that doesn't count your voice for anything and therefore won't let you be part of the political system makes you suffer, but does that mean the suffering ends there? what exactly do you have in mind when you say 'things that doesn't make women suffer'? please specify before you call them 'bad'.

you're generalizing here. whenever you say that men are physically stronger than women, does an angry damsell jump at you from behind a bush? every single time? women are, just like men, individuals and some of us do know that men are physically stronger than women.

as lil bitchiness's already said, you cannot use god as an excuse for men to suppress women. simply because he only exist to those who believe in him, and because the only thing you know about him derives from your own personal feelings and a book written and rewritten by men.
please do now be alarmed. look at the statistics: the general picture is that WOMEN STILL DO THE HOUSE CHORES! and on top of that, they work full time and take care of the children. their male partners? work full time and do a very small percentage of the daily chores. how can you blame us for wanting to change that? what's so horrible about not wanting to do the cleaning? should that be a crime just because of your gender?

being equal's not the same as being different. no, we're not equal, and that has nothing to do with god, but society; women still get lower wages, still don't get the big positions, still get fired because they become pregnant, still don't get hired because they might get pregnant, etc. etc.
but different? yes, we are. yes, men are physically stronger than women, yes, we work differently in specific ways, yes, we regard things differently, yes, we look different, but should that make any of the genders worth more than the other? no. that's the whole idea about equality.

I don't get it when you say that women are more important than men and at the same time state that men are superior.

when reading your posts, as well as the posts of some of the other guys here, I get the idea that you're fearing some sort of female take over. you say that 'things have been taken too far', but don't explain exactly what these things are. is it simply that women's position have changed so rapidly that you now feel you have trouble keeping up? why is it that it must be the womens's task to make you feel strong and confident again? why not just take it upon yourself and accept us as your equals? it sure takes a lot more balls than whining.

Flo - as you yourself said - I'm not here to attack anyone: Just their opinions. Well said and well put. A worthy aim that we all here at KMC could do with sharing. No reason for people to get personal and create more friction.

Topics like this can get outa hand pretty quickly if the more level headed amongst us aren't prepared to speak out plainly but softly - not against people but things that they stand for, the things they represent, the ideas that pose a danger to our time honoured traditions, our sacred duty to the family and most of all a danger to the precarious fantasy land that sexist troglodytes inhabit. It's a rare and peaceful land - the world where women are free to some extent - and it will be a strange and baffling day for some when it is lost to human view like the last little turd nugget swirling round the bowl before vanishing forever.

Lest it make a shred of difference: Newsflash, not only is their a whole new breed of man out there who crave a partner as fierce and smart and capable as themselves - to whom the word "equal" isn't alien or threatening: some of us even insist on it. And the best thing of all is that - as equals- you can't even begin to imagine the kind of fun we are having. Seriously: Thats not a metaphor - you have no ****ing idea, your brain doesn't get it because your thinking is as obsolete as the dinosaur.

*applause*

well said zero, i agree completely

So... I'll be on the first train to London then.

You're more sane in your post so i'll respond fo you first :-).



Thank you so much for being realistic when you admitted everything in tha first paragraph of wut i qouted. I do believe women to be more important because they are tha mothers who bring us to this world . but at tha same time, we ARE superior. and i'm not saying that to feel good, i'm saying that because a lot of woman think we are equal..which we are NOT.

As for whining, who's whining? i think your sadly mistaken...woman are tha whiners that whined for more than a 50 years. and i support tha cause for their early whining but NOW they whine about everything. even tha fact that they get our last names is being whined about. it is not a woman's task to make us feel superior. why do women repeat that? i dont care how much freedom women have as long as it doesn't take away things from us. and THAT is how it has gone too far. need an example for things gone too far? this thread.

If you had a different username i'd probably call you a name or two, too.

I dont see how me hating women that b itch too much has something to do with a woman having a brain. she can be a genius, and oppose everything...its tha bitching that i loathe. same way you talk to me.

I also dont see how you being a better speller is worth you including it. thats something you're proud of? and how are you more evolved than me? you are just socially evolved to todays "open and dumb minded" culture since you're one of those bi-sexual femenists STRONGLY oppose to anything men have. if you mean you're smarter than me because you have a different point of view and can spell better than me when i dont care about spelling - then you proved to be LESS intelligent than me. If you meant you're more evolved because you think you're better looking or something , give me a pic and i'll join your movement..LOL j/k

Of course you meant that women are more evolved than men...there goes your "equal" theory...LOL. and i'm afraid YOU need to get out of YOUR fantasy world because men ARE superior to women in every physical ability but give birth . men are smarter, some women are smart too... but that is a fewer number. and about your X and Y theory...women have more information in their gene because they can uh BEAR LIFE INSIDE OF THEM. not only was that a cheap shot by your part, it was idiotic.

Note: 88 does not mean 1988. I'm 18, look up my bday. but still with your logic i guess someone could be 50 and still be called a kid.


"Understand this, kid, women in this age dont even need men! We dont even need you to have children - GET A CLUE! "

Women dont need men? LOL omg you are PROVING how retarded your beliefs are. you dont NEED us to have children? listen here, that type of shit would never happen if only men worked. women were given tha right to work along men and do the research responsible for tha medical advancements you speak of and now you say that you dont even need us to have kids?...you are PROVING AGAIN that femenists like yourself are plain EVIL. everything you stand for is wut will bring this world down. you dont even like men at all. you are a man-hater. you shouldn't even be able to speak for women because you dont represent most of them. i feel sorry for your future husband...yeah right, you'll probably marry another woman....then i feel sorry for your children.

If you're offended, good. your words were just tha same...but with better spelling

dude, dont you think thats a bit ott?

Oh I see, so you think im an ''evil femenist b!tch who is a man hater and a lesbian''?

Actually HarmonicFlo88, im their queen!

Second of all, personal name calling and bashing is not allowed, and Im telling you - do not do it again.

My sexuality is none of your goddamned business, so dont make me abuse my 'evil femenist lesbian' moderator powers and get you banned. I hope we understand each other!

I bet you just wanted to call me a b!tch, didnt you? Because thats gonna make you feel all manly and big!
A man with ANY character will NOT call a girl a b!tch - that said a lot about you, didnt it?

I have my own life, my own degree in process and my own hand - what makes you possibly think id ever need a husband - especially one with shitty attitude like yours?
Id rather be alone for the rest of my life than have to spend one waking day with anyone who thinks like you. And hopefully I wont.

Do you know what kind of man has character? The one that will not have a problem with a smart and capable woman that doesn't let men push her around - and that is the only kind of man I ever want to be with.

And again - understand this as your warning with the name calling - next time I will not be handing out any warnings to you. I trust you will not let me show you what an 'evil femenist man-hating dyke with power' can do.

but how do you rate a capable man who doesnt let his wife/gf push him around? people call them sexist pigs because they stand up for themselves, which is wrong, it should be equal.

no, u misunderstood, im not talking about women, im talking about men who are independent and stand up for themsleves, but are lynched because of it.

and dont assume for one second im the kind of guy whos intimidated by a strong woman, theyre the ones i prefer.

HarmonicFlo -- I...don't even know where to begin. Your post was too ignorant and sexist for words to describe. So I'm just going to go with I pity any woman who would ever go out with you.

Lil...*applause* You rock. Too bad there still are too many women out there that let themselves get walked all over.

I didn't admit anything, I stated what everyone knows. we're different. still, where I don't see this difference as something negative, you seem to do and be in complete favour of the masculine values.
women aren't more important than men, and men aren't more important than women. especially when it comes to reproduction. you just called lil bitchiness evil because she said women can have children on their own. why do you then glorify the mother's role over the father's? the man's just as needed in the making and upbringing of the child, he just rarely takes that responsibility on him because he thinks it compromises his masculinity, which is utter bs.
you keep mentioning this superiority but don't really explain it, so I looked at the post you wrote for lil bitchiness in which you point at the male's physical strength. is THAT the superiority you're so fond of mentioning? the ability to carry heavy burdens and smack someone down? this was of course very usefull once, but in the society we have today, physical strength really isn't that important anymore. in stead, communication, understanding and other traditionally 'feminine' values seem be in more demand. besides, if you choose to view the less physical strength of females as a 'lack', then you too ought to view the males incapability of breast feeding and pregnancy as a such. thing is, these aren't 'lacks' but differences. that doesn't make any of the sexes superior to the other.

please read the papers, watch some telly, go out a bit. men do whine. whenever the talk is on relationships, you can be sure to hear the, "but they've changed everything, I don't know what to do" talk. "if I open the doors for them, I'm bad, if I'm too soft I'm not sexy" etc. I know the gender roles have been radically changed, and still are changing, but instead of changing along with them, some men seem to stand still, bemoaning their 'lost manhoods'. ever heard of courses for men to regain their 'manhood' and learn to talk to their penises? ever heard men whining about the new commercials with the naked men, or just men in underwear? I have. their argument usually is that "women are used to be made into sexual objects, we're not." yes, men whine.
I HAVE looked at this thread, and to be honest I think it's the men who've been doing most of the whining. grown men, afraid they're wives won't love them if they don't change their names? please, that's whining. to be honest, I'm with back fire in wondering why you're so eager for your wife to change her name if you really look at it as a minor thing. why should this minor thing be to your advantage and not her's? because you're a man?
yes, I do think that it is commonly thought that it's the women who've screwed up everything and really ought to come down to earth again. you say so yourself. the pressure's on the women to change, not the men. that leaves the women with all the responsibility.

Line - take a bow.

A round of applause for Line is needed, I do believe...

what does this independence, standing up for themselves and not letting one's girlfriend push you around (this last bit from your previous post) involve?

mr zero/silver stardust: thanks *takes a bow*

simply put, being as independent and strong as the woman the guy is with, not being a doormat.

if this independence doesn't stand in the way for her own independence, I don't see why you should be lynched? or indeed why you, if such a lynching takes place, should pay heed to it?

i have no problem with womens independence, but i believe neither male nor female independence should infringe on the other. the lynching happens because men are treated worse now than ever before, and are treated with suspicion constantly.

I agree about the independence.
how 'treated worse'? you're still the ones with the good jobs, the best opportunities, etc. you're still favoured by society. I know that the gender roles have changed and that it's getting harder and harder to find your place as a man/woman, but that goes for both sexes. women too are lynched when standing up for themselves, so the suspicion also goes both ways.

id mostly agree with you, but there are some massive female biased things in society, like fathers rights when the parents seperate, 9 times out of ten the mother is given the custody, and that is one reason im so afraid to have kids, because i know the law will most likely favour the mother (even though the woman i am with i consider to be my soulmate, to me shes like a queen). Thats ten times more important to me than any jobs. that said, As men, you cant so much as glance at a woman in the workplace nowadays without the words 'sexual harrassment' coming into your head, even when you arent doing anything wrong. and what about when a woman cries rape? how often will the press (if they are involved) side with the man? or even his friends and family? look at john leslie (a british tv personality whos career was ruined by false rape accusations, he cant get a job anywhere anymore). i agree its hard to be a woman, of course it is, men still hold a lot of power, but they are a small minority. i just think that its a lot harder to be what youd call an average guy in todays world than you ladies think. (apologies for the grammar, it isn't the best)

why is the mother favoured? because it's still widely believed that the mother's the most important of the parents. I agree that when the child's very small, she is, but as it grows up nothing holds the father back from taking part of the upbringing. in the cases of divorce this is of course in the favour of the woman, but when it comes to applying for a job or similiar things? it's pretty bad, course she's expected to be the one leaving work for a very long time in order to take care of the children. therefore I see this not only as a problem for men, but for women too.
if the words 'sexual harrasment' comes into your head when looking at a woman it's not her fault, is it? as long as she's not complaining about you it's something for you, and you alone, to deal with. yes, some women take unfair advantage of the possibility for taking male collegues to court, but most do not. that there's such a large percentage of women taking men to court's not the women's fault (unless of course the guy's innocent), but the men themselves. it's only the symptom of a problem, not the problem itself.
when it comes to rape, women still are in a very tough position. I don't know how things are in Ireland, but here in denmark, you really don't want to be a rape victim:
1: unless you have bruises and marks to show, you have not, according to the law, been raped.
2: if you have not struggled and clearly said 'no', you have not really been raped either (regardless of the fact that women often 'black out' during a rape in order to stay alive. it's instinctive and cannot be fought.)
3: only a very small percentage of men charged for rape are ever sentenced, simply because the court gives HIM the benefit of the doubt. so no, maybe the press won't, but the court sure as hell will.
if you're not found guilty in a crime, I agree that you should not be judged for it by others. still, in the case of rape, so few men are sentenced that quite a lot of guilty arse holes walk free. I have a hard time myself to feel sorry for those 'innocents', even though of course I cannot tell for sure whether they did it or not. I'm biased in this matter, I admit.
no, men who hold the power are not a small minority. very few women hold powerfull positions.
as I've said before, I know it's hard to be a man these days, just as it's pretty hard being a woman. thing is, there's a lot you guy can do yourself to change this. and I don't mean getting all aggressive and blame women for everything and fight to reclaim the old gender roles, but find a new male role. difficult, I know, but ultimately necessary course things have already changed and they won't be the same again.

just the first 6 months

do you know what happens after those 6 months? who's usually favoured?