Quenya or Sindarin?

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Telperaca
Take your pick!

*cough*QuenyaRules*cough*

angel

Flying High
i have to admit....i cant tell the difference no expression

Exabyte
laughing

When I first heard the two languages, I didn't really like Quenya... its sounded so ... prissy to me blink and way too proud, kinda unnatural, why Sindarin sounds like the growth of trees or the waters of a small well happy and is a lot more... fitting, more natural to speak than Quenya, which is totally a language for books and writing etc.

Now I kinda prefer Quenya, mainly because the grammatical structure with all the suffixes is imo a lot more interesting than the Sindarin-one where the interesting details are rather found in the phonology smile

Telperaca
Quenya...Prissy
O.o
laughing out loud

if you think about it, you’re never really going to have a conversation in Quenya with anyone. I certainly have never had one, but I’ve had conversation over the net with other Quenya learners, which is useful.

Exabyte
laughing kinda true big grin I sometimes talk a few words to my friends in Sindarin, but hardly more than greeting and asking how they are laughing out loud i only use it for What the f**k? animals What the f**k?

Telperaca
Lol.

I've not really qrogressed much with Quenya.
I usually seem to be thinking about it im ny mind, but never alout. I'd hate to know how my pronounciation is like! laughing out loud
If I see a star, i'm usually thinking "varnyar eleni" or "mori talan". Just simple phrases.

eezy45
SINDARIN Jumpy

Flying High
i saw it on a news programme schools for elvish and things opened cause of the lord of the rings movies...that was disturbing no expression

Telperaca
EEzy > D'oh

Exabyte
laughing Lol, the same happens to me sometimes... especially when Im walking through a forest or so messed

Nienna
I like both....if I'm feeling social, Quenya. And if I want to just walk with trees or sit in a puddle of water, then Sindarin.

But as I'm more people-orientated, Quenya it is eek!

Though currently I'm in part Sindarin mode no expression



bag Don't kill me Telpy cry

Telperaca
Lol
You're entitled to your opinion, no matter how EVIL it may be!
laughing

Sindarin = Evil
Evil = Wrong
Wrong = Sindarin

Quenya = Good
Good = I like
Quenya = I like

(Don't ask how that works)

*has been practicing more Quenya today*

eezy45
laughing out loud

I prefer Quenya actually though stick out tongue

Elondra
What's the difference?

Exabyte
Everything happy

Firstly their history... Quenya is the language of those that live in the Blessed Realm, Sindarin is the tongue of the others who stayed behind in fear at the shores of the great sea, of those that call themselves the Lost People, of those that live in the dark woods instead of libraries smile though it later became the language of nearly all elves in Middle-earth

That's also what they sound like - Sindarin like something growing, living, fearing, Quenya like cold letters scratched with a quill into the pages of a book

.. ok that was a little exaggerated stick out tongue
but quenya sounds more sophisticated stick out tongue

The actual phonological differences:
- Quenya uses semivocalic 'Y' as a consonant, Sindarin as a vowel; ie when in a text there's a word like 'thynd' with a 'y' between two consonants, it's Sindarin as the 'y' then can only be a vowel while when you have a word like 'yanta' where the y is obviously consonantic itself it's Quenya... typical for Quenya are also combinations like ny/ty/ry/ly+vowel.

- 'qu' and derivated combinations like '-ñqu-' or 'Ñgw-' do not exist in Sindarin; neither do hl, hr or hy+vowel.
Instead, combinations like dh, ch, lh or rh are pretty frequent in Sindarin; those are not allowed in Quenya.

- most words in Sindarin end with consonants hence the usage of diacritic vowel signs on the following consonants in Sindarin-Tengwar instead of the preceding like in the Quenya mode]; in Quenya, words end mainly with vowels, the only final consonants allowed are N, L, R, T and S (> those from the tincotéma and liquids). Most writers use '-ë' to mark that the final 'e's are pronounced, so 'ë' is also quite typical for Quenya texts, though that isn't directly because of the language.

- in Quenya, d, b and g only occur in the middle of words after the corresponding nasal (n+d, m+b, ñ+g) or the liquids r and l; in Sindarin, they usually stand alone and also occur initially or finally;
The voiced spirant dh (=ð) doesn't exist in Quenya hence the usage of the third and fourth row of the Tengwar table for combinations with nasals like nt, nd, mb etc in Quendyan mode instead of - like in Sindarin - for voiced sounds like d, g, dh etc]

- long vowels are marked with a circumflex in Sindarin (â, ô, î etc), but acute-accents (á, ó,...) also occur, usually in polysyllabic words; in Quenya, only the acute (and sometimes diëresis, like on ë) exists. A middle point, a - or a ' is often used in Sindarin to mark a following sound mutation (like in Tuor's famous quote 'Alae, (...) ered e-mbar nín', -mbar being mutated from 'bar')

- Quenya uses ai, au, oi, ui, iu and eu as diphtongs, Sindarin has ae/oe (and others, but those also exist in Quenya)

- w is rather rare in Quenya and usually just the alternative writing for v; x exists, but only in few words (for example 'Helcaraxë'); 'th' only occurs in old Quenya (used in Aman), after a phonetic revolution, it changed to 's' (hence the name of the letter 'thúlë' changed to 'súlë') and only few, like Fëanor, still used the old 'th'. 'Z' sometimes occures in old words instead of 'r' and in some names ('Ezellohar', imported from Valarin).

In Sindarin, w and th are quite frequent, but x and z do not exist.




The grammar is of course pretty different in the two languages; the most obvious thing is that Quenya-words are usually a lot longer than Sindarin ones (just look at the names from the Silmarillion - 'Noldolantë', 'Valaraukar' or also 'Silmarillion' itself, that's Quenya; names like 'Iant Iaur', 'Ladros', 'Laer Cú Beleg', 'Lammoth', 'Balrog' (=qu. 'valaraukar' wink) are Sindarin; the word 'Sindarin' itself is also a Quenya name *laugh*)
This is mainly because Quenya works with a lot with suffixes while Sindarin is using prepositions instead. There are 10 cases in Quenya, all constructed with different suffixes and also used to express things like directions ('Elenna', a name of Númenor, for example, is the allative of 'elen' and means 'to the star'; in Sindarin, this would rather be 'nan êl' or so, 'na' being the preposition); same for possessive pronouns

Quenya verbs also often include loads of suffixes to express all the different pronouns, for example 'laituvalmet' ('we will praise them') is composed of lait- 'praise', -uva- , -lme- 'we', -t 'them'; in Sindarin, objective pronouns are seperated from the verb ('Le milin' - 'I-love you', the Quenya form would be 'melinyet')

One of the essential elements of Sindarin grammar are sound mutations, of vowels for the plural forming and of consonants in initial position; the results sometimes look a little funny to 'english' eyes (words like 'i mrýg', ' i chloer' or 'or dhring' look kinda strange...) and are not always easy to recognize, like
i 'aladh 'the tree', plural i-ngelaidh 'the trees'



All in all the two languages have totally different characters and when you for example compare some quotes from LoTR, you will easily be able to tell which is Sindarin and which Quenya, even if you don't understand a single word of it

Thorondor
Traitor stick out tongue

Exabyte
What blink

Thorondor
you heard me lol

Exabyte
Hear is not understand huh

Thorondor
You read me then lol

Exabyte
I still dont know what you mean cry bag



offtopic

Elondra
If someone spoke one of them I still wouldn't notice the difference.

But thanks for explaining Exasmile

Telpy
Quenya's winning!!

WooooT!

Draugwen
I don't prefer either... Sindarin seems easier to learn though wink It doesn't have cases as Quenya does, and the sentence structure is much easier... but I'm trying to learn both anyway yes

Telpy
:: Whispers... ::

QUENYA!! lol!
Where are you learning the languages from?

Draugwen
I've got books big grinbig grinbig grin (And they are pretty good smile *hugs books*)

Telpy
Oh wow!
I just have print outs from the internet!
*blushes*
Come to think of it, I've never seen any books on LotR languages in the bookshops.

it_wasn't_me
Originally posted by Thorondor
You read me then lol
sindarin= elves of middle earth
Quenya= highelves

just if anybody wants to know

it_wasn't_me
Originally posted by it_wasn't_me
sindarin= elves of middle earth
Quenya= highelves

just if anybody wants to know
quenya= feänor
feänor= bad
Quenya still good sindarin to

Telpy
Feanor, or Feanaro is Quenya, is not evil. He's just ambicious, and that is not evil. Presonally, I think he was powerful and creative, and although his actions did cause really bad things to happen, they allowed for a very good book to be written.


So, no Feanor, no Silmaril, no wars, no interesting stories, no Silmarillion. And if the Silmarillion didn't exist, now would my character. wink

it_wasn't_me
Originally posted by Telpy
Feanor, or Feanaro is Quenya, is not evil. He's just ambicious, and that is not evil. Presonally, I think he was powerful and creative, and although his actions did cause really bad things to happen, they allowed for a very good book to be written.


So, no Feanor, no Silmaril, no wars, no interesting stories, no Silmarillion. And if the Silmarillion didn't exist, now would my character. wink

no feanor no book i agree but still feanor is evil because the murders on the house of olwes cant be undon

vanice
well, a lot of things would have happened anyway because of morgoth. even without fêanor and the slimarills.

it_wasn't_me
Originally posted by Telpy
Feanor, or Feanaro is Quenya, is not evil. He's just ambicious, and that is not evil. Presonally, I think he was powerful and creative, and although his actions did cause really bad things to happen, they allowed for a very good book to be written.


So, no Feanor, no Silmaril, no wars, no interesting stories, no Silmarillion. And if the Silmarillion didn't exist, now would my character. wink

silmarilon is much about feanor and noldors but its about many other things. but the noldor story wouldnt exist if feanor never did as he did.

feanor wanted to listen to morgoths lies. feanor still EVIL.

Draugwen
No, Feanor is not evil. He may have chosen the wrong path, but he was not truly evil. He's on the edge though.
(It's a reason why I like him so much... I have a weak spot for these good/evil-edge persons stick out tongue)

Draugwen
Originally posted by Telpy
Oh wow!
I just have print outs from the internet!
*blushes*
Come to think of it, I've never seen any books on LotR languages in the bookshops.

I can imagine stick out tongue
*is glad to live in a country where these exist*
I don't think there are many of them. And as I said; they're pretty good. From the internet doesn't have to be less good though wink (As long as it's not the Grey Company site...)

rolling on floor laughing

it_wasn't_me
Originally posted by Draugwen
No, Feanor is not evil. He may have chosen the wrong path, but he was not truly evil. He's on the edge though.
(It's a reason why I like him so much... I have a weak spot for these good/evil-edge persons stick out tongue)

it seems to me that feanor doesn't regret the blodbath (im maybe wrong confused ). thats why i think feanor is evil.

Draugwen
Yeah, you're maybe wrong wink The Silm wasn't all too specific about it, but then, it wasn't very often where feelings were concerned it seems to me... stick out tongue And no one really knows about it I think, but then I haven't read a lot off additional book material where it could possibly have been stated, and my memories of the Silm are a bit dim... so I think my perception is a personal one as well as yours wink
It's one of these uncertain things that so much inspire fanfiction stick out tongue

it_wasn't_me
i dont think its writen clearly if he regret it or not. i just got a feeling about that he dont regret it because i think he didnt just chosed one wrong path. i think he chosed many wrong path.

Draugwen
His wrong path was one, the one he chose by swearing the oath, and he kept to it until his death (which wasn't really very long after... he didn't even have all that much *time* to regret. Except of course in Mandos' Halls, which we don't know anything about... but then the latest I personally am sure he did) I *do* defend Fëanor a lot, don't I? stick out tongue

vanice
I have no opinion in Fëanor being evil or not. He certanly made some bad choses. Any way he was a great creator.

He constrocted the tengwar language, wich was used by by both sindarin and quenya speaking elves, and humans, and so on.

wich brings us back to the purpuse of this thread. (i guess)

it_wasn't_me
ok back to the thread.

vanice
quenya is probably the best language because it contains more words. but moast of the elves speaked sindarin, maby it's better because so many liked it. my vote goes to sindarin.

it_wasn't_me
sindarin elves are the best singers. my vote goes to sindarin.

Draugwen
Originally posted by vanice
quenya is probably the best language because it contains more words. but moast of the elves speaked sindarin, maby it's better because so many liked it. my vote goes to sindarin.

That so many liked Sindarin has historical reasons I'd say, not linguistic ones wink Quenya wasn't all that well liked as the language of the kinslayers back in the First Age if I remember correctly... after all those who brought it to Middle-Earth were the Noldor following Fëanor.
Quenya grammar reminds me too much of Latin tho' :P Sindarin is easier, I think; at least it's easier to build sentences with it without having to think for half an hour :P

And that Sindarin speakers are the best singers isn't true either. One of the best elven singers (if not the best) ever turning up in Arda was Maglor Fëanorion, who obvously was a Quenya speaker wink

LadyOfMirkwood9
I love sindarin(still trying to learn it.)

Draugwen
Trying to learn both big grin

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