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We were discussing spanking in another thread and this topic came to mind. If a person steps back and looks at when the general decline of morality or whatever you want to call it came about, I am speaking about the guns at school, the kids beating up parents, killing each other, the people in our own country blowing up federal buildings etc etc. All of this began it seems to be, after the decade of the 50's. Now Im not saying that this stuff NEVER happened before but it was definitely NOT as prevalent as it is today. And I dont buy the argument that there wasnt as much technology to report either peeps. It just didnt occur to this degree.
SO, to that end, what caused this? I myself have to wonder if it pretty much began back in the 60's. That era was definitely the beginning of many things. The women's movement, the free love, the free flowing drugs, the general lack of respect for anything remotely connected with the government or authority. I could go on here but Id like to hear what others think.

Whenever I don't have an answer cus i'm ignorant, I just blame witchcraft. So, it was probably witchcraft that started it all.

Downall of America? America has been going downhill for a while, im sorry to say. Even before 50s.

America, F**K Yeah!

What's the downfall of America? Simple, is the Whiners! Yup, those ppl that are never happy with anything! Examples:"Oooh Gas prices are to high!", "America has to many fast food restaurants", "I don't get a fair education", " The Government is over taxing me", "There are no jobs", etc...etc....ETC!! Just shut your holes and be thankful we aren't starving or paying $10 for a gallon of gas like in order countries. This nation is just full of people that complain ALL THE TIME.

It's my constitutional right to complain. Just because other countries have it worse doesn't mean we shouldn't improve our own country!

And is my constitutional right to tell those people that they whine to much! Is call freedom of speech!

"blame witchcraft" hahahaha!

I hope that was a joke. I know several who practice Wicca(that makes them witches), but it was still damn funny.

Isnt the greatest power in the world to stop people from complaining? To stop them looking for an alternative and just accept the roles they are given?

No, you see THATS the problem. The problem is the fact that you all think that society in which you live is how it should be and that there are no other ways. WRONG! Its not right, its not how it should be!

Its because of that thinking that gender inequality and racism still exist. Because if someone complains, everyone tells them - ''stop whining, you're looking too much into this''

Isnt that a lovely way to just shut everyone up and let them roll with it, work for the money all their lives, trying to acheave some kinda standard for other people and not complain - because - its how it was supposed to be. I dont think so.

I wish to met one, just one person (apart from my super sexy sociology lecturer) who will say ''hey, the society today is not right, we are controled and we are just going along with it, and if we all are to just think for a second we could possibly enter a new kind of socialisation where this kind of shit is not a problem.''

OK outside of LB I dont see a response that required much thought people. And lil, I'd be interested to know why you think this downfall started before. How so? Id really rather not turn this topic into a discussion about other countries vs america etc etc. I want a serious discussion of what led to the downfall of the good old USA as it used to be.

So what is the ideal society? A society without witchcraft I hope.

go back and re-read my post I edited. Please stick to the topic.

I agree with JP.

The world would be a safer place if you all did your duty and beat your children.

you smart ass. Thats NOT what I am talking about and you know it!

Im talking about the days of families and stickball in the streets and when a hoodlum was just some guy who smoked, drove his car fast and your daddy warned you away from, what ever happened to those days?

Well i do belive that society is not right but i wouldn't say it was just the US i would say the UK have the same problem and so do alot of other countries.

But then again lil how would you want society to act???

My honest opinion - it started when America started to get too involved into foregin policy.

The land of the free - that saying is rather ironic, because right now, it really is not. Democracy and anti-marxism is what blinded America to many things that are to later on come back and bite it in the ass.

No Im not buying that, because back when WW1 and the Korean War were going on we didnt have the problems we have today. I'd take that argument if you are referring to the Vietnam war, but then again that was POST 50's.

Anyway, America does a lot of things wrong, but it does a lot of things right also. There is a reason that So many people from So many nations came here. I agree with priestess that things have gotten worse, but I also think that things are getting better. Don't pay attention to the news because they focus too much on the negative aspects of America. Especially with elections going on!

Meat what are you 12? You've yet to say something that smacks of intelligence.

Bulls**t that things have only gotten worse recently. Watch the History channel and you'll see that people have always been f***** up. Nothing started the decline, people have always been this way.

You're only focusing on all of the bad stuff.

The good that goes on counter balances the bad.

Everyone has that problem. I wasnt specifficly refering to USA.

How I want society to act? Well absolutely differently to how its acting now.

If i told you, Ash imagine yourself as having no extra money, no computer of your own. Imagine having no different clothes to everyone else, what would your identity be?

We are a product of a consumer society - you are what you own. We dont have our own dreams and hopes, we dream and hope the dreams and hopes which society as set for us - which is have tons of money, have big car, have big house, be loved by everyone, be beautiful because apperantly thats all that matters

Can you imagine a society where your face, your money status, your sexual orientation or your gender an issue? I dont think so, becuse we are all brought up thinking in a box that what we have now and how the world is now - is how it was ment to be.

What? People WILL always complain about anything! Humans are hard to please. No power in the world could EVER make an entire society happy.



You all think? so you are including me? Uh-uh! I do acknowledge the problems that our politics and our society face. I'm not gonna go insane trying to fix the problems much less go around blamming everything else. I take care of my problems first. Not those whiners out there! They fix their problems and still complain.



Oh no! I'm not telling them to shut up. Eventually they'll recognise that their complaining isn't taking them anywhere. Eventually they'll realise that the only way to fix something is by taking the lead and really DO something about the problem. All I'm doing is pointing out that these ppl complain more and do nothing about the problem.



No society is right and there never was and NEVER will be. No matter what society you might want to go with. Whether is Socialism or Communism or Democratic new problems will arise. It is unfortunate that humans can never agree on something. There is always something wrong all the time. Whiners don't do any help and finger pointers (if you want to label me as one) don't do much help either.

in response to meat

Really? Funny, I grew up in the 60's and I dont recall and school shootings? I dont recall the general lack of decency people have towards each other that we see today. I myself never even got to experience what it is I am talking about so how can you even begin to make an assumption like that?

Those are not the dreams and hopes of everyone.

N***ER! To the back of the bus!

maybe your getting senile!

Tex, there is much more bad today then there was then.

AND the rest of you. This is NOT ABOUT SOCIETY per se ok?? It's about what happened to the US the way it was in the 40's and 50's when society WASNT all screwed up. WHAT CAUSED THAT???> I dont care to have a discussion of society today blah blah blah........Im sick to death of discussing that.

Raguardless - those we only the examples.

In reality, none of your hopes and dreams are real or your own - they are society set.

bite me Link

So, no one ever got murdered, or mugged in America before the 50's?

IN THE 1940'S... WORLD WAR 2! WHAT DO YOU MEAN IT WASN'T AS BAD BACK THEN!

Ok lil i undersand that but you have to tell us what is the other choice??

I mean i agree that we are a product of a consumer society. But i rather have that then be run by a dictaership.

I mean there is no way to change this.

Oh lord QUIT generalizing. In the 40's and 50's you could go out and walk down your damned street without the fear of getting mugged. Many people didnt even lock their doors at night. Maybe I shouldnt have brought this topic up. I think some of you are too young to understand what I am talking about.

you were talking about a general lack of deceny towards others.

Maybe I'm wrong, but weren't blacks referred to as "the N word" and treated like crap through the 60s?

You can do the same in the town I live in. You think you could walk through the slums of New York in the 40's and not get mugged?

Every town is different.

Meat, give it up man you are too young to understand.

Oh sorry Link I see your point I should have rephrased that. And the time period I am speaking is Pre 60's.

Indeed but in the 50s there was not threat of terriosm on our door steps.

And what about the World Wars i am reallly sure it was more dangerious in thoese times then it is today.


Also were Blacks allowed to vote in the 40s 50s??

There is certain truth in that. WWII was over and soldiers were returning home. New jobs were open and the depression of the late 30's had vanish. Unfortunally there was the red scare and from there on things change. Three wars erupted. First one, was the cold war. Second, Korea, and Thirdly, Vietnam. America was stable from the period of the late 40's to the early 60's.

Jedi, admit it, things aren't as bad as you think!

I do not believe that, and I reject the idea that this is the best we can do. Its not. The only reason we think we cannot do better, is because we are brought up believing we cannot do better.

Do not get me wrong, I am not a functionalist and although I agree with some stuff Durkheim says, i certainly do not believe our society runs smoothly - no way no how.
But I believe, strongly that there can be a socialisation unlike this one! There has to be, and just because most people are closed minded to understand a complete change, doesnt mean its impossible.

And no, i dont want to label you because i am least fond of labeling people - (unless we're talking about crime but thats a different debate)

Poverty in America is not nearly as bad as it was. WELLFARE!

Argh you are missing my point entirely. NEVER is life perfect. NEVER! Yes racism was rampant back then. Altho I think it actually got worse towrds the end of those 2 decades. BUT on the whole, we had far less crime, far less friggen serial killings, no school shootings that I remember reading about, you see where I am going with this?

Have you ever actually witnessed a serious crime?

oh for the love of god.......meat go read a book or two and then come back and argue this.

Yes! many times! What's the point you want to make?

Its funny that you bring that up because I read an article saying that you're just as safe leaving your door unlocked today as you were 40 years ago.

Difference is no one does, because you hear about all the bad stuff on TV and the radio and you're scared shitless.

The truth is crime and murder and rape and kidnappings were happening in the 40s and 50s. (Organised Crime)

I think that as populations grow and live in more densely populated ares, crime will naturally increase. And news of those crimes spread faster and wider. People start getting suspicious of each other.

You're just as safe as you were in the 50s.
I think.
Even though it may not seem that way to you.

The 50s were America's golden age.
We put it on a pedestal, pristine and crisp.
Although in reality it was nothing but.

I think you're investing too much into today's media that only sells when they talk about murder.

America was never perfect. There was always crime and their always will be.

Everything always seems better than it really was when you reminisce.

Think carefully about what you' re going to say and put it in one post please MW.

Now Tex, I dont agree with that. The reason people lock their doors is so their stuff doesnt get ripped off or they dont get murdeed in their sleep. Im not saying that America is all bad. But I am saying that the American life in general is worse today than it ws then. Yes I know they didnt have half the technology we do, but really, is that even neccessary to have a fulfilling life? I just think that as a WHOLE Americans were much happeier back then.

I'm more of a Comte thinker. I'm sure you seen Brazil's flag many times. Well, that flag has the greatest and best statement ever written in the history of humanity: "Ordem E Progresso" which translated means "Order and Progress". That's the key to a better society! That philosophy of establishing order and making progress in Any state is the key to a better humanity. The only problem is that it needs to be put in action NOT in words. So the way I see it is not all about ideology is about doing something for ourselves and make something happen. Are you following me on what I'm saying?

JP, Tex is absolutely right.

Your media controles you by your fear. It makes you believe that its worse outthere than it really is.

Exactly lil!

Last year, there was a young couple that was murdered in thier house. They lived in a small town, actually just a mile north of this little town. During the night, 2 idiots pulled off the interstate and basically buthered them and drove off into the night. That's not just media lil thats what this world has come down to. Im not saying that none of this happened back in the Golden era as Tex put it, Im just saying it happens way more often today and that I honestly feel bad for the children that have to grow up in this world. And I wondered what brought about this change.

But seriously, every generation complains that the new generation is worse than they were.

AGAIN you're way off base. This is not REPEAT NOT ABOUT YOU OR YOUR GENERATION. damn get over yourself already.

Ooooh... JP's out to get ya!

No Shit!

Yup.

Am I really so off base?

To be honest... yes

All right ... I'll go watch cartoons with little kids who will be impressed with me

you dont need to do that you just need to go back and re read what I was writing about. This has nothing to do about my feeling for todays generation, Im waxing nostalgic.

disclaimer: i love this country but, as with the rest of the world, it has never been a utopia....so with that said, time for my 2 part rant:


rant part 1: in one way or another, this country has always been on the brink of falling
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this country was going to shit immediately after puritans hit american soil to escape religious persecution and began hanging poeple accused of witchcraft and herecy? (of coarse it wasnt an actual 'country' but you can see what i mean there.
perhaps when we commited genocide on the native americans?
or was it was in the 20's when jazz broke out and everyone said it would cause all kids who listened to become sluts and junkies?
could it have been the great depression when countless families were out on the street starving.
perhaps it was going to shit DURING the 50's when white kids listened to r&b that many parents labled "jungle music" rock n roll was supposed to bring it all to shit...elvis is all american now, but back then he was labled "elvis the pelvis" and accused of perverting the youth.
and the 50's were also a time of fear. the spread of communism was supposed to end the world, duck and cover, here today melted tomorrow.
man, im a child of the 80's and even THEN the idea of nuclear holocaust haunted my days and nights, i can only imagine the fear back then.

its always been shitty. people have always been scummy. only thing is now there are lots more people, and thus lots more scumbags. overpopulation doesnt help either. (take it from someone in jersey)

----------------------------------------------------------
rant part 2: whats different about today?

so whats DIFFERENT in the downhill slope?
media+ fasion&entertainment industries
(i group entertainment and fasion because they work hand in hand)

the entertainment&fasion industries will always invest in the controvercial, as it always makes money to shock. entertainment promotes materialism, commercialism, masogony, criminal activity, drugs, and every other nasty thing that they deem to be hip. and for every new fad there is a line of clothing to match it. an overpriced 'i'm a mindless commercial junky' uniform.
these people dictate the way kids and adults dress, act, think, feel, and treat eachother.

now for the media: the media has always instigated fear, as fear makes money. people are afraid of what our society is becoming, and thus stay glued to their TVs to see what horrible thing will happen next. the anchormen always act so shocked and remorsful, and a second later the scowl turns to a beaming smile to give news that a couple of pandas at the zoo had sex. the media has no heart, its only there to keep you watching, even if it means causing race riots to do so (remember the l.a. riots? you can thank the media for that.

the media and entertainment/fashion industies feed off eachother.
one promotes fear while the other promotes causing fear. one promotes sheltering your kids while the other wants your kids to be sluts.
one says america is falling to violence while the other sells violence.

and all the time we are scared out of our minds, or have the illusion that we are rebelling against those who are ignorant, or have the false notion that we know exactly what the bad guys look like, and wear, and listen to...guess who's cashing in on the whole fiasco?

What the hell?

How in the world did you figure it out that the oposite to a consumer society is dictatorship? Thats bull.

I already repeated myself millions of times as to what i think the alternative is. I asked you to imagine it, and you couldnt have. Refer to my post.

And of course there is a way to change it. Its only because you cant imagine yourself outside the little box you were told to think in, does not mean that theres no way to change it - of course there is.

Gee, JP, when did you put on the rose specs? Tex and the others are right, you are living in a dream world if you think things have become worse than what they were.

Haven't you ever seen Blackboard Jungle? People were getting shot and stabbed in school in the US in the 50s and earlier. For a hundred years the most terrible and blatant racist crimes were being partaken of every day without an eyelid. We are talking mass rapings and killings here. Go back further, and in the 20s you have entire administrative areas under the control of organised crime!

Some things do grow worse- the prevalence of drugs, for example. But racism, horrible as it still is, has gotten better.

The one thing that has grown and irrevocably changed, though, is people's intolerance to this kind of thing. Even in a large part of the 20th century, people didn't care if they could ignore it, which was all too easy. But social conscience is growing. I disagree with most of what Lil says; I see it is naive waffle, but the core of it- the desire for improvement in society outside the narrow bounds of yourself and your family- is an increasingly prevalent trait in people today and this can only be a good thing.

Naive waffle? Whatever - this is not something i made up, but something i have read - its a sociological theory and the way academics in thsi field view the society - they actually study this shit all their lives.

So when you go off, come up with a theory, write a book, get published and when your work gets credited by at least one socilogist, then come back here and say something is naive waffle. Till then, im gonna think that all you say is bullshit.

And I can show you just as many works from writers and theorists who think what you believe is bull too. You shouldn't get so aggravated just because someone disagrees with you, Lil, or go around thinking you have a monopoly on quoting truth, because that is phenomenally arrogant.

The thing is most people don't know a good thing when they have it.


And Lil yes we do live in a consumer society which your parents helped create. You point out all the negative point but not the positive.

We live it a much better society then we did in the 50s people are more tolerant then before we are much more educated then we have ever been. Blacks are allowed to vote more and more people are having the courage now to stand up to what they believe in.


And let me ask you this we are only aware of are society because of the media as Tex said in the 50s things were much worse but the media has never done anything about it. Now they are speaking out against there own leaders.
50 years ago a newspaper would never print anything bad about there leader but now they do.

There has ALWAYS been a problem with society but we have only recently been able to learn of it.

hah! Get over yourself will you.

Unlike YOU i dont get aggravated when someone disagrees with me, or corrects me, i get aggravated when someone does it in a way YOU do it. Strutting into a thread and calling everyone who doesnt agree with you ignorant and naive and you have the nerve to call me arrogant?

Don't take it the wrong way here Ush. But that comment regarding crime in the 20's can open a new can of arguments. Most of the organize crime was establish by immigrants from Europe. So was the large migration of the early 1900's to America the cause for the crime? I would say not, but there could be connections.

Well, let's have a look what happened here, Lil. I noted that I did not agree with that you said. Now, look at the tone of your post in reply. If you don't think that sounds aggravated just because I disagreed, that's very weird. Nor did I use the word ignorant- you made that up, which goes to say something about your mentality at this point. You then try to rather crudely reverse your own error by trying to make out I am making what are, in fact, your failings.

You'll just have to accept that our viewpoints differ, Lil, and not pretend that your view is the only one with any weight or evidence behind it.

wow lil as a mod i thought you were above this why are you getting stressed out for????


I mean all Ush is doing is pointing out his view's

Well, you could just as easily point to external factors for today's crime as well, from the Russian mafia to Mexican immigration. But does the cause matter? It's the final state of the US I think JP is interested in. As you say, that it an entirely different line of argument.

I totally agree with that statement. tha women's movement is pretty much an accomplished cause, and they need to just shut up. free love is practically EVERYWHERE and also diminished tha importance of a marriage . drugs have become a normal part of life, with millions of ADULTS smoking pot secretly and regularly. and tha lack of respect for authority has made rebellion "cool" in almost everyones mind .

Wut goes up, must come down. It's just how it works.

When you achieve a state of well-being , motivating factors that got you there start to decline. tha slower tha worse, for people seldom realize it. people become content with wut they have, and divert their attention to other things.

Also, everyone is aware that there are usually small fluctuations in every organization's success. so when something starts up that causes a small increment of decline, people dont put much attention towards it - so more and more things pop up. this results in a downfall, tha slower tha worse...

Look at how the U.S. helps other countries by going out of its way. why? because we already did that in here. would tha 13 colonies help any other country in their time of need in tha late 1700's? HELL NO...because they were motivated to become independent and strong.

It's just how it is, i'm afraid.

THIS is what I was getting at I think.

And Ush you know I live in a constant state of nostalgia!

I think what it is I'm nostalgic for is they days when you didn't HAVE to lock your doors at night, when your kids COULD walk to school without the fear of getting accosted or worse yet kidnapped, when you didn't lock your car doors, when you could sit out on your porch at night if you lived in town and didn't have to listen to loud mufflers, stereo's, neighbors whatever, when men for the most part opened doors for women etc. ( and YES I know women shot themselves in the foot here, I am NOT a feminist it should be noted ). However I do stand by my opinion that life in the US in general remains more immoral today.

whoever the hell said that society in the 5o's was worse than our society now, is a idiot,there were no complexities back than and now i think people suffer from future shock, i know racism was bad,and minorities had no rights, but that still happens only in a different way, i think society has come to dog eat dog, and its frightening how disgusting people treat other people, atleast back then people werent so frightened of each other like they are now......

ARE WE THE IMAGINATION OF OURSELVES?

You cought me Ghandi! Right there, im a horrible horrible mod.

Congratulations Ash, you're officialy better person than me. Enjoy the feeling sweetheart.

America's downfall is due to non-empathic conservatism, the continued lack of understanding of psychology, a grossly incompetent/immoral media , and, of course, fundamentalism.

Plain and simple.

It could be said it was inevitable, all "empires" or at least powerful nations meet their end eventually, due to a number of reasons, from internal matters that arise from complacency which stem from being the dominant force, the fact that much of the outside world comes to resent which also affects the psyche of a people and serves to degenerate national morality. And of course the economy is always a relevant point that has an effect.......