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If there were a god, and he is capable of doing whatever he wants, then would he also be able to set himself a task that would be challenging for him, and would be difficult for him to do. If he is capable of doing anything, then he would be able to instantaniously solve the puzzle and complete the challenge, but if he can do ANYTHING, then he could be able to create a puzzle for himself that even he could not easily solve.


What are your thoughts???

if he existed, yes he could bet on the grand national, with out cheating or seeing the future or anything like that

Homer:
"Hey, I got a question for you. (pulls out a piece of paper) Could Jesus microwave a burrito so hot that he himself could not eat it?"

Ned:
"Well sir, of course, he could, but then again... wow, as melon-scratchers go that's a honey-doodle."

Homer:
"Now you know what I've been going through."

i think we can not simply think god with human perspective. God is not a human that can learn from challenge and grow, God knows everything. God no need challenge, it was only for human to play with.

so wasnt the creation of the entire universe a challenge(for those who believe god did do that)

If creating the universe was not a challenge, then why would he have done it??

Also, how can a perfect being create anything that is imperfect. If humans are imperfect, then it is because their creator (human or divine - depending on what you believe), then their creator must also be imperfect.

Is it possible for a perfect being to create something that is imperfect. If he is perfect, he would know how to create something imperfectly, but doing so would deny his own perfectness..

Hasnt God challenged himself with the creation of humans? I mean he has tried to make the Earth sin free time and time again, but his gift that is freedom of choice leaves our existence up to us.

Even if Jesus came back to earth and gave all of humanity proof without a shadow of a doubt that there is a heaven and a hell. people would still make choices willingly to damn their souls. If there is one thing that God cannot controll, it is the human spirit and mind.

Well, other humans can control the human mind through deciet and manipulation. Advertising people do it everyday. Hypnotists and psychologists do it for a living. So i dont see how god would be unable to do so

The guy's gotta get his kicks from somewhere, did you ever hear tell of God's little bit on the side? No, therefore the Big Guy needed a little excitement in his life. Also, we are the result of God's Asexual Procreation

well influence and totall controll are different things. God could influence or even totally controll perceptions in the human mind and soul im sure, but that would be a contradiction of free will. God tried making people believe him and follow his words, but all he got was fire and brimstone, and 40 days and 40 nights of rain.

Yes, and I suppose you believe all you read in the papers, right?

What the hell does that mean? I am just giving a hypothetical answer to a hypothetical question.

.... i'm not really sure why you guys really care...
but i suppose, if there was a god and he was like everyone said, infallible... nothing would be challenging for him...
so, i doubt it...

It's like the "Could God create a stone SO heavy that he couldn't lift it?"

Ugh, sorry. It was the 'fire and brimstone/40 days & nights' thing that got me.......

Rumor has it, God created Satan to challenge him. This was in the Old Testament. Satan was not some evil being who lived in Hell with demons. The evil Satan came later in the skewed English translation of the New Testament. I think. So, yeah, God created Satan to challenge himself!

God's power is infinite

the limitation to a challenge are finite.

therefore, God could overcome any problem he set for himself

Another way to put this question in a philosophical term would be like this:

Can God create another God?

How about them apples?

god's power is infinite, so to make another god would require infinite power.

inifinity - inifinity = infinity

so yes, he could

Yeah. its very much like that.. I think (for those that do believe) that creating the universe 'may' have been a challenge.. considering he had to take a rest on the seventh day (which is the day people are supposed to also take rest and observe the sabbath day)... but I dont know... its not like we can really comprehend the kind of power he has.. so how could we comprehend a challenge suiting of him? ( again for those that believe )

If NOTHING is challenging for him, then he would have no difficulty in creating such a difficult challenge.

Paradoxes are indeed fun!

Wow, this is a really obscure thread.

That is like asking, "If you were king of the world, could you overthrow yourself and take your own spot as ruler?"

No, he couldn't challenge himself.

Reminds me of a Koen from Zen Buddhism. A monk comes up and asks a master "If everything comes from the one, and returns to it, from where did the one come, and to where will it go?"

To which the master replied "When I was in Ch'an I bought a hempthan vest that weighed 30 ounces"

I wish I was there.

I can quite easily act below my intelligence

Dear santa claus

Pliz get me lohtz ov prezzzies tunk yu grd amen

But my stupidity serves a purpose that my intellect couldn't complete.

That's excessive, I mean no kid, no matter how dumb, adds that many letters to their words Still a good example though

maybe he's just friggin energy

We can't comprehend anything past the potential of our minds. We speak of challenges because our existence is a challenge. Maybe there are other forms of existence out there where challenge is not the driving force of existence. We as humans live to create and overcome challenges.

According to the Bible, God has never created challenges.challenges create themselves. Most people equate Lucifer as the opposite of God. Lucifer ounce loved and served God. Could God destroy Lucifer? According to the Bible God can do anything. Maybe this proves that challenges only exist in the perspective of man. We as humans need challnges, sometimes to justify our own existence. Or maybe god himself, like us needs challenges. I really dont think we can ever comprehend somthing we dont, and cant understand. I say cant, because We as humans think and live a certain way due to our history.

God probably sat down and thought "I'll create a universe with various planets and various star systems."

He did. And now he's sitting in a bathtub like Tony Montana, monitoring all of the civilisations around the universe and infinity, pointing to the screen that says "Earth" under it and saying "You see dat J? You see da? You nefa goin back dere. Never. Does **** put you on dat cross mayn, dey kill you for tryin to help mayn. Yeah? Well **** dat mayn. Dey ****in kill themselves soon."

-AC

Holy crap that's good!!

clapping Well done 'mayn'

You talkin' a me mayn? Hehehe.

Thank you.

-AC

Would a 'god' be able to committ suicide.??

Jesus let him self be crucified when he could have run or performed some miracle to free him self if he were really the son of God but decided to stay and be crucified, does that count?

If he believed himself to be the son of god, then he would have protected himself for god's sake. He would not have wanted to upset god by forcing him to watch his own son get killed. He would have put aside his masochistic tendensies and saved himself in order to stop god getting angry.

I dont see how jesus believed that he was saving mankind. If he believed that he was the son of god, then he should have thought that letting humans kill him would make god even more angry at humanity, and would end up punishing or killing them all.

i guess He could. but my question is why would He want to?

your kidding right? I mean really

LOL

Legally if a bodyguard takes a bullet for the predident, that doesn't counts as suicide. He's allowed to take the bullet for mankind.

yeah, but actually it is suicide.

Yeah, but nobody would actually say that to anyone else, so why say it to Jesus?

Plus the legal system protects him, and justice trumps rational thought due to presedence.

Do you mean our legal system or the legal systen 2000 years ago?

eigther way, it is a choice to possibly give your life at the given momment. In one sense that could be suicide, in another it could be the sacrifice of your life for another. I guess in the bible, the one would cancel out the other, making it just a death....i am really bored

Don't play stupid games with words. I'm saying that the type of suicide that we'd say is wrong (that was once outlawed) was not the type that Jesus committed. It's like defining a stone as an atheist as it has no belief in God... Sorry, forgot Jesus' promise of them praising him... a bacterium is an atheist, as it has no belief in God. Absolutely worthless.

If he can do anything, could he ever prove himself wrong?

Nope. That would be a mistake, and that is the one thing beyond him. Unless that mistake is more useful than perfection. If he got somebody to be an Evil Atheist (not sure whether they exist, but in this metaphorical situation, they do) by showing some stupid worthless logic, that convinces stupid people and three people turned to Christianity due to the illogical nature of the ranting. Enough lies can give an outline of the truth.

Uh oh, it would appear that God is becoming more limited as the thread goes on.

Not very. As I stated ages ago, It is not a disability in a mathamatician if they cannot find that 5+4=8. Same with God, It's not a bad thing if he cannot make mistakes.

If God cannot make a weight so heavy that even He cannot lift it, then He is not all powerful. I would say that is a limitation.

If he travelled through time, would he abe able to defeat his younger, less experienced self?

He is limitless. There is no weight he cannot lift. It is a limitation of mine that I cannot lift ten tons. It is not a limitaion of a truck that it can.

I haven't read all of this thread, but I see it like this:

We can only see things from our limited point-of-view. We cannot comprehend all the ways that God can see things. To us what seems a paradox may not apply to Him. We see it as, "It's true or it is not." Perhaps God is the one who says, "But the question is: how?" To us, that makes little sense. To Him, it might make all the sense in the world.

I Corinthians 2:5 "That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God."

That's all I need to remember .

If God can create a weight so heavy that He cannot lift it, He is limited in strength. If God cannot create a weight so heavy that He cannot lift it, He is limited in His ability to create. So either God is limited or a limitless God does not exist.

It's impossible to create a weight a Being with limitless strength could not lift, in the same way that it is not possible for you to create a puzzle you cannot solve, as your intelligence is equal to the maker. You cannot exceed yourself. Not a limitation for him though, as nothing can exceed him. It wouldn't be a limitation for me not to be able to lift ten tons, if there wasn't ten tons in the universe.

Then God is not all powerful or He does not exist.

You define all powerful in a stupidly pointless way. I'm saying that God's all powerful in a way that lets him do useful tasks. Not pointless ones. His only limits are that he cannot make mistakes, or be stronger than himself. If that's how you define as less than all powerful, then so be it. I don't accept it as a contradiction though.

Ytaker>

Congratulations on missing the point entirely. All powerfullness as a characteristic does not exist as it is a paradoxial impossibility. This means that an all powerful God does not exist or if you prefer, God exists but is not all powerful.

Did you not see my above post dealing with this paradox? I've heard all these arguements before, and, yes, they are incredibly difficult to explain. I guess we'll all learn when we die, eh?

Your previous post does nothing to solve this paradox, it simply evades it. When you present an argument that addresses ths paradox, I will address you.

It addresses the paradox--we see it as God can or cannot do something. This is from our limited point-of-view. God does things beyond our comprehension. He sees and understands it all at once and we cannot possibly do this.

Paradoxes are those things that we see as an impossibility. Of course, we see rain as being wet, so what do we know?

Wouldn't it be like Superman 3 where he split into two parts and fought himself in a junkyard?

Perhaps what he would do is to destroy reality and all concepts of common sense, and then there would be nothing to stop him from both being able to create the rock, and then lift it

It is your position that this appears to be a paradox but is not a paradox at all. You have yet to provide any evidence to support this. You are simply trying to abdicate the limitations of God onto the limitations of humans. Try again.

YOU are simply trying to impose the limitations of humans onto God.

Isnt a challenge considered something that is not fully understood? so therefore, god being omnipotent, knows all.. therefore there is no possible challenge he could create for himself that he didnt know the solution to..

Errrr...no?

For me, riding a horse is a challenge--I'm short and I find horses to be intimidating . For JM, the correct use of grammar is a challenge. For my dog, not running into things is a challenge. For a friend of mine, doing math problems is a challenge.

I fully understand how to ride a horse. JM (probably) understands the basics of correct grammar. My dog understands that running into things hurts (well, she's kind of a brick wall, so perhaps not). My friend knows how to do the math problems, but he has trouble connecting everything together.

You are correct that not being all powerful is a limitation of human beings. However, all powerfullness is also not a characteristic of human beings.

The reason the paradox in question applies to God is because all powerfullness is a characteristic of God and therefore, He should not be limited in this way.

how can you consider the challenge of riding a
horse not understood? if you understood 100% there
wouldnt be an intimidation. (which Im pretty sure the
only reason intimidation exists is because of unknown
factors, like when some muscle dude is about to pound
ya, you take into consideration his mass and you doubt
yourself after becoming intimidated...so you know that
beating him up might be a challenge, although I know
theres some people who dont become intimidated, I just
figured I'd touch down on intimidation).

as for JM (and I dunno who the hell that is lol), the
grammar is a challenge because its proper concept
is not understood (only the social slacker usage of
the grammar is being typed by this person Im
assuming)

"Trouble connecting everything together" is (and Im
pretty sure) not understanding something heh.
Complete understanding is when there is no struggle
whatsoever (as Im sure we both agree).

I dont know, I hope I dont sound stubborn but I feel
strongly about challenges being something someone
doesnt fully understand (whether that be physically
or mentally).

If there were, say, alternate realities, or different dimensions or what have you, would they be lorded over by our God, or have there own all seeing, all powerful deity in charge? If so, if two all seeing, all powerful deities met, would they be able to challenge one another? And if different time-lines exist because of our universe, and each of those time lines had its own all powerful god, ergo God would have created a challenge.... of course this might be a dubious proposition.

If you don't accept it, look at it this way. Since he is infinite in size, he would have to make something that would be bigger than himself. Since it is his nature to be the biggest thing in existence because He created all things, he cannot violate His own nature by making a rock that is larger than he.

Plus there's the nature of that rock. They're formed over time (Relatively hard, naturally formed mineral or petrified matter; stone, www.dictionary.com, i.e. takes time to form into any size, so it grows, and therefore cannot reach infinity any more than you can by adding one to any number as many times as you want) A rock, by definition is not infinitely large. So, to say that God cannot pick up this rock, means, that he is not in fact picking up a rock. You atheists create some weird paradoxes.

You are asking for God to become self-contradictory as a proof he doesn't exist. Your assertion is illogical from the start. So what you are doing is trying to get God to be illogical. You want to use illogic to prove God doesn't exist instead of logic. It doesn't work and the "paradox" is self-refuting and invalid.

I fully understand riding a horse. I KNOW that the horse will not decide to trample me or throw me off (well, there is a slim chance), and I KNOW that there is no reason to really be intimidated by its size, and yet I still am.

Jackie Malfoy (JM) probably understands grammar at a reasonable level, but she is too lazy to put it to good use. Much like those who use abbreviations like, "u" or "ur" instead of spelling out the words.



Yes, you are correct, this was a poor example on my part.

Infinite power require infinte size.

It isn't the power to overcome the nature of things though. Only to do all things within itself. Just as running doesn't mean that I can run faster than a cheetah, being omnipotent doesn't mean that God can overpower his own morals and will.

well like, if god can do anything, then could he make a rock that he couldnt lift? if he made it, he couldnt lift it. and that would be something he couldnt do. ive said to myself, when i get to heaven, im gonna ask god. but the thing is that ive already asked god, and hes already figured a way to do it, so god is perfect

He doesnt need to be infinite in size.
If he invented space and time, then he would have created 'size', so it would be meaningless to him.

I'd define a being like that as infinte or nothing. Nothing more, nothing less.

If he created 'size' then he would have existed before it, and therefore he does not need to have any size at all

That's how I define infinite. He is beyond size, beyond limitations.

beyond reason

Saying he has infinite size implies that he has always had a size. If he invented the concept of sizes, he would be without any size at all

What? This concept of "size" confuses me. I think that the "size" about which Ytaker talks is more of a human term shackled to God so humans can better understand Him.

And this is a rather trivial point--does it really matter?

Yes, this is pointless. I'm dropping this argument. As a show of how pointless, I will delete my response to the without dimensions reply that was above.

You know, if I was Gandalf's brother, I would like to be a red wizard. 'Cause then I could have a red beard. Wouldn't that be AWESOME?

And I want a pet Balrog.

/spam off

ok, i haven't really been following God for that long now so i came here to try to answer some of my questions, and to help answer others questions if they were to ask me, i would like to start taking part in this conversation mainly to have the questions answered, about all i really know is these arguments have been going on for the past 2000 years and I'm trying to help alot of kids in my school with these questions. But even Satin asked Jesus a version of the question "can god make a rock to heavy for him to pick up." what satin asked Jesus is, if god had a divine purpose in this world, and Jesus was to throw himself off the cliff, wouldn't god catch him, Jesus's reply to this was "Do not tempt my father" what dose that quote mean

OK, i done some thinking, and got with some friends, i think i have figured out an answer, not saying its right, to the question "can God make something he cannot destroy" for one your trying to compare two opposite things, Gods infinite power to destroy and his infinite power to create. the best answer me and my friends can think of is no, because how could you make something that has more power then all powerful.

Its a contradiction.

The suggestion violates omnipotence and therefore is illogical.

It is a paradox; Omnipotence does not exist.

You can not disprove something with a contradiction, that is illogical.

For instance, can he create something that is too heavy to life? No, the suggestion violates omnipotence. God will only do things that are in his nature.

The contradiction proves not that there is something wrong with the suggestion but rather that there is something wrong with omnipotence.

If omnipotence exists, all things are possible. If even one thing is impossible, then omnipotence does not exist.

The contradiction proves nothing other than a persons ability to try and make illogical statements to disprove something. That just doesnt work though, its an illogical premise.

Omnipotence isnt the ability to do anything you can conceive (as in illogical ideas), God will only do things that are in his nature.

Violating omnipotence has nothing to do with having power though, its simply an illogical contradiction written up in an attempt to disprove something. The paradox is self-refuting and completely invalid.

We can agree to disagree on this point I suppose but you should see why such an objection can not work.

No, I don' t believe god can challenge himself.

If God is all powerful can he kill himself? can God create a rock that is so heavy that Even Himself cannot carry? Can God manifest himself as a human?

well here are some of the Flawed questions i thought of so far. while eating brunch.

No
I don't know
possibly as like we are all parts of what god would be anyway....Like the analogy of your cells being parts of your whole body......the cells are like you.....but you are part of something bigger that you can't quite understand ie your body......

Cell would have no idea what the body is doing.

Originally posted by debbiejo
No
I don't know
possibly as like we are all parts of what god would be anyway....Like the analogy of your cells being parts of your whole body......the cells are like you.....but you are part of something bigger that you can't quite understand ie your body......

Cell would have no idea what the body is doing.

where the hell did you get your knowledge. its good. its outside the box good.

because you just ended the discussion in 1 sitting.

Originally posted by ROYALGUARD
can God create a rock that is so heavy that Even Himself cannot carry?

DC comics have all the answers:

Once again, we are confronted with the Omnipotence Paradox.

The fun thing about the OP is that it prompts us to examine our premises, reasoning and conclusions with fine detail, kinda like a workout for the logical mind.

However, ontological arguments (of which the OP is one) simply can not be used to prove or disprove the existence/nature of God. To do so would imply that God is "small enough" to be encompassed by mere human logic.

And surely we are not that arrogant to figure we can do that.
Right?


Hello?


jerry

Originally posted by eleveninches
If there were a god, and he is capable of doing whatever he wants, then would he also be able to set himself a task that would be challenging for him, and would be difficult for him to do. If he is capable of doing anything, then he would be able to instantaniously solve the puzzle and complete the challenge, but if he can do ANYTHING, then he could be able to create a puzzle for himself that even he could not easily solve.


What are your thoughts???

Not unless he wasn't bored, seeing that we are more entertaining than a puzzle he could not easily solve...

Well, he could try to figure out how to make a square circle.....That would certainly be something I would be impressed with...

He could in a sense... just redefine what a circle is, and make a square with a slight change... call it a circle square. Who's gonna argue with God on that one?

FOOL: Hey yeah, God? Uh, you can't have a circle-square...

GOD: O rly? *Smite*

Originally posted by Janus Marius
He could in a sense... just redefine what a circle is, and make a square with a slight change... call it a circle square. Who's gonna argue with God on that one?

FOOL: Hey yeah, God? Uh, you can't have a circle-square...

GOD: O rly? *Smite*

Or worse: He'll turn you into an irrational KMC debater.

They're in the GF aren't they?

Originally posted by ROYALGUARD
If God is all powerful can he kill himself? can God create a rock that is so heavy that Even Himself cannot carry? Can God manifest himself as a human?

well here are some of the Flawed questions i thought of so far. while eating brunch.

* first off, are you talking about the God in the Bible? if so, i would gladly answer you according to the Bible...

If God is all powerful can he kill himself?

* yes, God is Almighty... but He is not stupid... plus, read this...

"God is a Spirit : and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."
John 4:24

* God is a spirit, and spirits do not die like humans do...

can God create a rock that is so heavy that Even Himself cannot carry?

* i've studied that line, bro... and it's a fallacy...

"But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible ."
Matthew 19:26

* things that can be impossible to humans are possible to God...

Can God manifest himself as a human?

* if it's God the Father... nope...

"Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God ."
Psalms 90:12

"Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning ."
James 1:17

* from everlasting to everlasting, God is God... no variableness nor a shadow of turning...

* But the Father's Son is also a God... Christ... Christ manifested himself as a human to save us from sins...

"And the Word was made flesh , and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."
John 1:14

"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh , justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."
I Timothy 3:16

* are my answers okay?

Originally posted by peejayd
* first off, are you talking about the God in the Bible? if so, i would gladly answer you according to the Bible...

If God is all powerful can he kill himself?

* yes, God is Almighty... but He is not stupid... plus, read this...

"God is a Spirit : and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."
John 4:24

* God is a spirit, and spirits do not die like humans do...

can God create a rock that is so heavy that Even Himself cannot carry?

* i've studied that line, bro... and it's a fallacy...

"But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible ."
Matthew 19:26

* things that can be impossible to humans are possible to God...

Can God manifest himself as a human?

* if it's God the Father... nope...

"Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God ."
Psalms 90:12

"Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning ."
James 1:17

* from everlasting to everlasting, God is God... no variableness nor a shadow of turning...

* But the Father's Son is also a God... Christ... Christ manifested himself as a human to save us from sins...

"And the Word was made flesh , and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."
John 1:14

"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh , justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."
I Timothy 3:16

* are my answers okay?

cool Most amazing

Does anyone know ANYTHING to do with god the creator?

Originally posted by lord xyz
Does anyone know ANYTHING to do with god the creator?
I don't get it? What are you asking?

Originally posted by lord xyz
Does anyone know ANYTHING to do with god the creator? NO! Only just a learning process all the time...

Originally posted by peejayd
* first off, are you talking about the God in the Bible? if so, i would gladly answer you according to the Bible...

If God is all powerful can he kill himself?

* yes, God is Almighty... but He is not stupid... plus, read this...

"God is a Spirit : and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."
John 4:24

* God is a spirit, and spirits do not die like humans do...

can God create a rock that is so heavy that Even Himself cannot carry?

* i've studied that line, bro... and it's a fallacy...

"But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible ."
Matthew 19:26

* things that can be impossible to humans are possible to God...

Can God manifest himself as a human?

* if it's God the Father... nope...

"Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God ."
Psalms 90:12

"Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning ."
James 1:17

* from everlasting to everlasting, God is God... no variableness nor a shadow of turning...

* But the Father's Son is also a God... Christ... Christ manifested himself as a human to save us from sins...

"And the Word was made flesh , and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."
John 1:14

"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh , justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."
I Timothy 3:16

* are my answers okay?

I don't get it- how can God do things that are impossible, but he can't make himself human shaped?

Originally posted by Janus Marius
I don't get it- how can God do things that are impossible, but he can't make himself human shaped?

Good question...

So basically, god is this guy right, and he does stuff right? See where I'm going?

Originally posted by Bloigen
So basically, god is this guy right, and he does stuff right? See where I'm going?

Sounds like something Bush would say.

No, because its not a book report. It should say...

God was born in <year> in a small town in <state> . He had two brothers and sisters and loving parents. God's father was a <simple profession> and his mother stayed at home. He went to college at...

You get the point. Its like a 1st graders mad lib biography.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
I don't get it- how can God do things that are impossible, but he can't make himself human shaped?

* nope... that's not the point there, bro...

"Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God ."
Psalms 90:12

* that is the greatness of God the Father... He is God from everlasting to everlasting... you cannot add nor diminish something from Him... He is that all-powerful... plus, there is no need for Him to make Himself a human...

"Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning ."
James 1:17

* that is the guarantee we need from God... He is very worthy for our trust because He cannot change, no variableness nor a shadow of turning... much more than that... here...

"For the Lord is good; his mercy is everlasting; and his truth endureth to all generations ."
Psalms 100:5

* God remains in the truth, His truth endureth to all generations... God is God from everlasting to everlasting, and so is His truth... oh, and looky here...

"In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie , promised before the world began;"
Titus 1:2

* God cannot lie... as much as God cannot change, He also cannot lie... now that's "guaran-damn-tee"...

Originally posted by peejayd
* nope... that's not the point there, bro...

"Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God ."
Psalms 90:12

* that is the greatness of God the Father... He is God from everlasting to everlasting... you cannot add nor diminish something from Him... He is that all-powerful... plus, there is no need for Him to make Himself a human...

"Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning ."
James 1:17

* that is the guarantee we need from God... He is very worthy for our trust because He cannot change, no variableness nor a shadow of turning... much more than that... here...

"For the Lord is good; his mercy is everlasting; and his truth endureth to all generations ."
Psalms 100:5

* God remains in the truth, His truth endureth to all generations... God is God from everlasting to everlasting, and so is His truth... oh, and looky here...

"In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie , promised before the world began;"
Titus 1:2

* God cannot lie... as much as God cannot change, He also cannot lie... now that's "guaran-damn-tee"...

So if God cannot change, and he cannot lie, and he embodies what we would call absolute good in this world, how did evil and Satan and free will just slip in there? If those things did not come from the essence of God, the creator, how could they have a nature that he does not possess? Furthermore, because they are of a nature he does not possess, how could God ever create and identify anything outside of himself? How could an all-good, never changing God conceptualize and create things that are dynamic, supposedly free, and potentially very evil?

That seems to be a serious inconsistancy in the professed persona of God. Likewise, the OT God acts more like a tempermental child than the NT god... what happened there?

Originally posted by Janus Marius
So if God cannot change, and he cannot lie, and he embodies what we would call absolute good in this world, how did evil and Satan and free will just slip in there? If those things did not come from the essence of God, the creator, how could they have a nature that he does not possess? Furthermore, because they are of a nature he does not possess, how could God ever create and identify anything outside of himself? How could an all-good, never changing God conceptualize and create things that are dynamic, supposedly free, and potentially very evil?

* in my humble perception, that is the greatness of God... He has the power to create things out of nowhere... but how did evil slip in? it is because God had granted all His rational creatures the power of freedom, or should i say, the power of free will...

* let us face it, bro... we cannot enjoy life here on earth without the power of free will that God had granted us... we have the power to choose right or wrong... let us not forget what Saint Paul said about how God loves His people and how He wants us all to be with Him forever...

"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
Who will have all men to be saved , and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."
I Timothy 2:3-4

* God had given us the power of free will even if that may lead us to evil, however He never leaves us without someone who will lead us to salvation... God had sent good men, prophets, angels and even His only Begotten Son - Christ to save us from whatever potentially evil we may lead ourselves to...

Originally posted by Janus Marius
That seems to be a serious inconsistancy in the professed persona of God. Likewise, the OT God acts more like a tempermental child than the NT god... what happened there?

* nope, bro... God is more open to the prophets in old times... for example, God Himself gave the tablets of commandments to Moses so when the Israelites had turned from God and worshipped idols and graven images, God abandoned them because of the fact that He had done so much for them, He literally split an entire ocean to saved them and what did the Israelites did in return? they worshipped a different god...

* most recently, God had sent His only Begotten Son to save His people... but people never believed... Christ was God's last ditch effort... and up to now, the Spirit of Christ is still here... Christ had commanded His disciples this...

"Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you : and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the consummation of the ages. Amen."
Matthew 28:20

* Christ told His disciples to teach the people to observe all things He had commanded them... so what did the disciples do?

"If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord ."
I Corinthians 14:37

* the disciples, from example: Saint Paul, wrote them... so God and Christ is still preaching unto us their word of salvation through the Holy Bible...

Originally posted by AOR
Sounds like something Bush would say.

It is actually a Bush quote. I got it from my calender.

Originally posted by peejayd
* in my humble perception, that is the greatness of God... He has the power to create things out of nowhere... but how did evil slip in? it is because God had granted all His rational creatures the power of freedom, or should i say, the power of free will...

* let us face it, bro... we cannot enjoy life here on earth without the power of free will that God had granted us... we have the power to choose right or wrong... let us not forget what Saint Paul said about how God loves His people and how He wants us all to be with Him forever...

"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
Who will have all men to be saved , and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."
I Timothy 2:3-4

* God had given us the power of free will even if that may lead us to evil, however He never leaves us without someone who will lead us to salvation... God had sent good men, prophets, angels and even His only Begotten Son - Christ to save us from whatever potentially evil we may lead ourselves to...



* nope, bro... God is more open to the prophets in old times... for example, God Himself gave the tablets of commandments to Moses so when the Israelites had turned from God and worshipped idols and graven images, God abandoned them because of the fact that He had done so much for them, He literally split an entire ocean to saved them and what did the Israelites did in return? they worshipped a different god...

* most recently, God had sent His only Begotten Son to save His people... but people never believed... Christ was God's last ditch effort... and up to now, the Spirit of Christ is still here... Christ had commanded His disciples this...

"Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you : and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the consummation of the ages. Amen."
Matthew 28:20

* Christ told His disciples to teach the people to observe all things He had commanded them... so what did the disciples do?

"If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord ."
I Corinthians 14:37

* the disciples, from example: Saint Paul, wrote them... so God and Christ is still preaching unto us their word of salvation through the Holy Bible...

1. I don't get how God could be absolved from the creation of evil which results from free will if he created free will.

2. I don't get how God would talk to older prophets, but today he's apparently gone mute.

3. Where were these protectors, angels, and "good men" when entire cities of innocent people, including women and children, were razed and burned or enslaved under conquerers such as Alexander, Caesar, Stalin, Hitler, and so on? Where was God's divine grace when entire races of people were displaced or subjugated, when over 400,000 women were victims of systematic rape in Asia following a war? Where was God's protection when Hiroshima was wiped off of the map?

Like I demonstrated in another thread, it is difficult to believe that a good, powerful, and loving God would allow anything at all to happen to his children, unless he was actually indifferent, petty, or not there at all.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
1. I don't get how God could be absolved from the creation of evil which results from free will if he created free will.

* God did not create evil... evil is manifested if the free will is used against God...

"But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully ;"
I Timothy 1:8

* see... by logic: free will is good if used rightfully... if free will is used wrongly, evil will emerge...

Originally posted by Janus Marius
2. I don't get how God would talk to older prophets, but today he's apparently gone mute.

* no, He is not...

"God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son , whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;"
Hebrews 1:1-2

* through Christ, God spoke... the disciple wrote epistles, God spoke... read the Bible, God speaks...

Originally posted by Janus Marius
3. Where were these protectors, angels, and "good men" when entire cities of innocent people, including women and children, were razed and burned or enslaved under conquerers such as Alexander, Caesar, Stalin, Hitler, and so on? Where was God's divine grace when entire races of people were displaced or subjugated, when over 400,000 women were victims of systematic rape in Asia following a war? Where was God's protection when Hiroshima was wiped off of the map?

* read this...

"That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust ."
Matthew 5:45

* God is justice, there is judgment for all people on the very last day...

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Like I demonstrated in another thread, it is difficult to believe that a good, powerful, and loving God would allow anything at all to happen to his children, unless he was actually indifferent, petty, or not there at all.

* don't blame God for evil things... does good things occur or not? but do people realize that good things came from God?

"Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above , and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning."
James 1:17

* good things occur, people take it for granted... evil things occur, people blame God... now that's kinda biased, wasn't it...

God couldnt beat himself in a drinking contest. Pussy.

* God don't drink either...

Originally posted by peejayd
* God did not create evil... evil is manifested if the free will is used against God...

"But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully ;"
I Timothy 1:8

* see... by logic: free will is good if used rightfully... if free will is used wrongly, evil will emerge...

You don't get it- God makes free will. Free will spawns evil. You'd like to believe that evil just... is plucked out of a void (Since it didn't originate with God like the rest of creation) by the concept of free will. But what you fail to address is that God MADE free will possible, he allows it to be possible. Ergo, he is directly responsible for evil in this world, according to your own argument.



Yes, because the Bible can prove its own validity by simply saying "We were divinely inspired". Please.




What God allows his children to come to harm and suffering? Why postpone judgment until the last day? Why not prevent harm and serve the most pure and good purpose there is- protection from or elimination of evil entirely? Why would God waffle on this?




On the contrary- good things happen, people attribute it to God. Bad things happen, people say "don't blame God". Last I checked God was supposively the creator of all things, the surpreme judge, all good and all powerful. How can he be all those things if he allows evil to take place? You have not answered my questions with anything more than selective scripture and blind faith. Come back to me when you finally examine your own stance.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
You don't get it- God makes free will. Free will spawns evil. You'd like to believe that evil just... is plucked out of a void (Since it didn't originate with God like the rest of creation) by the concept of free will. But what you fail to address is that God MADE free will possible, he allows it to be possible. Ergo, he is directly responsible for evil in this world, according to your own argument.

* you just said it... God allows it to happen... but still, evil never, ever originated from God... free will does not directly and not automatically spawns evil... use free will rightfully and the result is good...

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Yes, because the Bible can prove its own validity by simply saying "We were divinely inspired". Please.

* then quote a verse that seemed wrong... to you...

Originally posted by Janus Marius
What God allows his children to come to harm and suffering? Why postpone judgment until the last day? Why not prevent harm and serve the most pure and good purpose there is- protection from or elimination of evil entirely? Why would God waffle on this?

* is that what makes God evil in your eyes? well, looky here...

"But Jesus said, Suffer little children , and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven ."
Matthew 19:14

* infants, children... they are innocent... whatever happens, they are automatically saved...

Originally posted by Janus Marius
On the contrary- good things happen, people attribute it to God. Bad things happen, people say "don't blame God". Last I checked God was supposively the creator of all things, the surpreme judge, all good and all powerful. How can he be all those things if he allows evil to take place? You have not answered my questions with anything more than selective scripture and blind faith. Come back to me when you finally examine your own stance.

* last time i checked, you are ranting how God cared while many children died from war, chaos... last time i checked, God was the one being blamed... last time i checked, God was being depicted as a hypocrite, tyrant, greedy...

* God gave people a gift of freedom... you do have freedom... use it nicely, no evil will emerge... why blame God? why not blame the people who use free will wrongly? are you a chicken? blaming Someone who's supposed not to react? i feel sorry for you...

* remember this... God allows evil... but God is wise... He can turn it upside-down if you cooperate... read this...

"Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life , which the Lord hath promised to them that love him."
James 1:12

* God allows people to be tempted, when you endured the temptation, you will be rewarded... get a life... blaming God will not help you mature... read the Bible...

Originally posted by peejayd
* you just said it... God allows it to happen... but still, evil never, ever originated from God... free will does not directly and not automatically spawns evil... use free will rightfully and the result is good...

Perhaps you just can't think outside of the box. God MAKES free will according to the Bible (Which is actually contradicted by other pieces of stripture that point to God's will in all things and predestination). You then go on to argue that free will produces this evil. Well... who the hell made the evil possible? Who's not stopping the evil? Who's apparently somehow absolved of all responsibility just because... he's God?



I am not engaging in Scripture wars. I have an argument, and you cannot address it apparently because you refuse to leave that blanket of security.



Yes. Tell that to the mother of a child who's raped and killed by age two. I'd love to see her response to your faith that god protects and saves innocent children. Also, tell it to the children who are raised in abusive households. Tell it to the starving babies in Africa. Instead of insisting there's some righteous paradise in the afterlife because a stupid book says it, why don't you step back and realize that this all good, all mighty God of yours is letting us suffer, even the children.



Miss the point again? Shouldn't surprise me. God cannot be all good if he allows evil to exist. If God was a lifeguard, and he told Us (a child, let's say) not to go into the water because it's dangerous, and we go anyways, would he be allowed to sit there and go "Well, I gave them free will!"? No! Don't be daft. All this pseudobullshit posturing and scripture reciting doesn't address the ethical problems I am putting forth.



Don't feel sorry for me in your web of ignorance, Peejayd. I absolute hate it when Christians - who don't even bother to examine the validity of their own religion - start to express "Sympathy" for anyone who doesn't believe.

Now... rhetoric aside, how does God giving freedom of people to do evil absolve God from letting evil take place? Or is that too complex an ethical question for you?



Yes, because James is God's mouthpiece. And of course that book survived the times, unmolested, unedited, completely intact and proper to God's command. Yes. Faith in the Bible, not in Christ. I see it entirely.

Let me ask you this...

Would Jesus Christ accept the suffering of children in our world today as a trial? Would Jesus Christ believe that when God of the Old Testament flooded the earth, cast out Adam and Eve, and destroyed Soddom and Gamorah that it was a just punishment? Would Jesus Christ behave exactly as God apparently did?

Or could it be that simply mindlessly parroting the Bible is missing the entire point. If you profess to be a real Christian, then you adhere to the teachings and principles of Christ- compassion, love, understanding forgiveness.... God does not apparently demonstrate these principles to his own creations, nor his own supposed son. I fail to see how you can hold such blind faith when all you have in front of you is a book and a warm fuzzy feeling from chanting.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Perhaps you just can't think outside of the box. God MAKES free will according to the Bible (Which is actually contradicted by other pieces of stripture that point to God's will in all things and predestination). You then go on to argue that free will produces this evil. Well... who the hell made the evil possible? Who's not stopping the evil? Who's apparently somehow absolved of all responsibility just because... he's God?

* and you can't think inside the box...

* and? what do you want to do? bet you a dollar, in your hour of extreme pain or failure, you'll call God for help... yes, you're a not just a hater, you're a hypocrite too...

Originally posted by Janus Marius
I am not engaging in Scripture wars. I have an argument, and you cannot address it apparently because you refuse to leave that blanket of security.

* you are refusing to leave YOUR blanket of security... i'm asking you to prove your point... give a verse that's wrong in your perception... or is it too complex for a hater like you?

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Yes. Tell that to the mother of a child who's raped and killed by age two. I'd love to see her response to your faith that god protects and saves innocent children. Also, tell it to the children who are raised in abusive households. Tell it to the starving babies in Africa. Instead of insisting there's some righteous paradise in the afterlife because a stupid book says it, why don't you step back and realize that this all good, all mighty God of yours is letting us suffer, even the children.

* now this is stupidity... a two-year old child was raped, you didn't blame it on the rapist, you blamed God... children raised in abusive households, you didn't blame the culprit, you blamed God... starving babies in Africa, you didn't blame their government, or their people, you blamed God... yeah, you really are a hater...

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Miss the point again? Shouldn't surprise me. God cannot be all good if he allows evil to exist. If God was a lifeguard, and he told Us (a child, let's say) not to go into the water because it's dangerous, and we go anyways, would he be allowed to sit there and go "Well, I gave them free will!"? No! Don't be daft. All this pseudobullshit posturing and scripture reciting doesn't address the ethical problems I am putting forth.

* two things, might happen... you'll drown or you'll not drown... if you drown, you blame God... if you don't, what? lucky you? give me a break, you ungrateful hater...

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Don't feel sorry for me in your web of ignorance, Peejayd. I absolute hate it when Christians - who don't even bother to examine the validity of their own religion - start to express "Sympathy" for anyone who doesn't believe.

* nah... kidding aside, Janus... i really pity you...

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Now... rhetoric aside, how does God giving freedom of people to do evil absolve God from letting evil take place? Or is that too complex an ethical question for you?

* gifts aren't supposed to kill you, it's supposed to satisfy your needs... your mom gives you a cellphone as a present, then you got robbed and stabbed because of it, you blame your mom? please... get out of the freakin' blanket...

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Yes, because James is God's mouthpiece. And of course that book survived the times, unmolested, unedited, completely intact and proper to God's command. Yes. Faith in the Bible, not in Christ. I see it entirely.

Let me ask you this...

Would Jesus Christ accept the suffering of children in our world today as a trial? Would Jesus Christ believe that when God of the Old Testament flooded the earth, cast out Adam and Eve, and destroyed Soddom and Gamorah that it was a just punishment? Would Jesus Christ behave exactly as God apparently did?

* yes, because even Christ Himself suffered... yes, because it was really a punishment...

* sounds hypocritical for someone to cite Christ as an example, erstwhile badmouthing His Father...

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Or could it be that simply mindlessly parroting the Bible is missing the entire point. If you profess to be a real Christian, then you adhere to the teachings and principles of Christ- compassion, love, understanding forgiveness.... God does not apparently demonstrate these principles to his own creations, nor his own supposed son. I fail to see how you can hold such blind faith when all you have in front of you is a book and a warm fuzzy feeling from chanting.

* YOU fail to understand thing and is obviously beyond your comprehension... i can gladly explain it to you of you can accept... however, the way i read your posts... you are the blind-boy, not me...

Originally posted by peejayd
* God don't drink either... yes its not like he ever,you know,turned water into wine...

Originally posted by Black Rob
yes its not like he ever,you know,turned water into wine...

And very good wine. And people think god is against drugs.

^^

Probably 60% proof wine too...........Also, Jesus never said to not drink. Even Paul said, to paraphrase "Eat first before I come, so you will not be drunk"...........

What do you mean? God created all things visible and invisible...........god created evil...."All things for his good pleasure"

Free will gives us choice not the ability to create. Evil had to have been created for us to choose. If there was no evil,then how could we have chosen it?

Originally posted by AOR
Sounds like something Bush would say. "Ya see,God is the axis of good,he helps us fight terror.Also he hates gay marriages and loves oil.God bless America"

Originally posted by Black Rob
Free will gives us choice not the ability to create. Evil had to have been created for us to choose. If there was no evil,then how could we have chosen it?

If there is no evil there is no good. That means that God is both good and evil.

Originally posted by Black Rob
"Ya see,God is the axis of good,he helps us fight terror.Also he hates gay marriages and loves oil.God bless America" God loves massage oil too....cause he created sex and lust and body parts...

Originally posted by debbiejo
God loves massage oil too....cause he created sex and lust and body parts... Yeah he's a freak

Originally posted by debbiejo
What do you mean? God created all things visible and invisible...........god created evil...."All things for his good pleasure"

* nope...

"And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good . And the evening and the morning were the sixth day."
Genesis 1:31

* God created all good...

Originally posted by Black Rob
Free will gives us choice not the ability to create. Evil had to have been created for us to choose. If there was no evil,then how could we have chosen it?

* i beg to disagree, bro... there is a path to goodness, we are entitled to decide: to walk through it or not... unfortunately, if we don't walk on the said path, that is where evil will emerge...

Originally posted by peejayd
* nope...

"And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good . And the evening and the morning were the sixth day."
Genesis 1:31

* God created all good...



* i beg to disagree, bro... there is a path to goodness, we are entitled to decide: to walk through it or not... unfortunately, if we don't walk on the said path, that is where evil will emerge... that really didnt answer anything,your just saying that we have a choice but you cant choose something unless it was presented to you in the first place.

Originally posted by Black Rob
that really didnt answer anything,your just saying that we have a choice but you cant choose something unless it was presented to you in the first place.

* for example: there's something you should do, but you chose not to... it's a manifestation of free will... nothing was presented to you but you had chose something... that's to do nothing...

Originally posted by peejayd


Good and evil are inherent properties of all things, including God. There is no right path, that is a tool used by the powerful to control the masses.

* nope...

Well god created satan according to scripture, so he DID CREATE EVIL...Unless you're saying god did not create all things...


The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these. (Isaiah 45:7, NASB)

Is it not from the mouth of the Most High That both good and ill go forth? (Lamentations 3:38, NASB)

c'mon debbiejo, do you honestly believe in EVIL?

Only "Evil Dead".........He speaks, and he looks like Jack Nicholson...that's enough to freak anyone out!!!

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Good and evil are inherent properties of all things, including God. There is no right path, that is a tool used by the powerful to control the masses.

* there is a right path...

"Thus saith the Lord, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls . But they said, We will not walk therein."
Jeremiah 6:16

* see?

Originally posted by debbiejo
Well god created satan according to scripture, so he DID CREATE EVIL...Unless you're saying god did not create all things...

* God never created Satan to be evil... He created Satan as an angel... and Satan was not evil at first...

Originally posted by debbiejo
The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these. (Isaiah 45:7, NASB)

Is it not from the mouth of the Most High That both good and ill go forth? (Lamentations 3:38, NASB)

* it pertains to humans... in the eyes of a man, God doeth evil...

"Yea, surely God will not do wickedly, neither will the Almighty pervert judgment ."
Job 34:12

* even death is God's love... consider a person hanging on for dear life battling cancer or other deadly disease? God puts rest by death... just an example, not in general...