Digital Voting Machines

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PVS
just curious of what you all think of the new touchscreen voting machines being used in many states. you know, the ones which have been known to malfunction, leave no paper trail rendering a recount impossible...the ones that leave the ballots vulnerable to election fraud.

i think this should bother everyone, regardless of your political ideals, since this sword is double edged. New Jersey, Florida, and other states' supreme courts have struck down lawsuits filed against the use of such machines, so it looks like we are stuck with them. so...what do you all think?

here are some related articles:

a detailed explanation of the new system, and the dangers of:
http://www.stanford.edu/dept/news/report/news/2003/february5/dillsr-25.html

cast your vote for one president, and the screen says you voted for the other?
http://abqjournal.com/elex/246845elex10-22-04.htm

Foreign Observers See Problems in Election
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20041021/pl_nm/campaign_observers_dc_1

please feel free to post any new related articles

PVS
oh christ...wrong forum...could the mods please scoot this over to the general discussion? embarrasment

EDIT: just reported myself stick out tongue it should be moved very shortly....

lil bitchiness
Moved. hehe

PVS
thanks lil b. laughing out loud

zutalurs
Wow. Suck machines have been banned? Poor lonely guys.

PVS
D'OH!!!!

Jedi Priestess
how do you write someone in on those? Good thing we dont have them as I am still writing in Vader for president laughing out loud

PVS
actually JP, thats a damn good question...perhaps a digital keypad? which would be a real pain in the ass to use i imagine.

i will research this


also, here is a must-see site i just stumbled upon:

http://blackboxvoting.com/

dedicated to digital ballots, and the potential for disaster

Gangularis
how about www.voterfraud.org

i heard some guy on NPR talking about how they expect the computer machines to have a much smaller margin of error than that of hand counting votes.. so i don't know. if you can make a right click to turn 10,000 votes towards the other candidate, i think a margin of error becomes a moot point.


the fact that they could come up with no feasible way to print a reciept of some kind or make some sort of honest paper trail is complete and utter BS.

Linkalicious
my mom is helping out at a polling booth, she says the new systems are a lot faster, and pretty easy to use, but she's really afraid that this is only going to create controversy amongst the nation.

all of the machines are hooked together like a chain...and the end machine is hooked up to this larger server looking machine.

I hear there is no printed receipt or any sort of way of confirming your vote once you've casted it. I have a distinct feeling there will be a lot of fraud controversy on the 3rd of November.

Gangularis
you know the bush team is ALL for this. no doubt in my mind that they could corner the election through this means if they had to.

Linkalicious
if it's as close as the polls are currently suggesting...

i honestly wouldn't be surprised if Bush won, and if this was the most ambiguous part of the whole process.

PVS
i read article about a typical design flaw having to do with touchtone screens, the human hand. sometimes a person's palm touches the screen, or perhaps there pinky or thumb hits the screen. sure, most of us should have no problem...but what about many senior citisens who will most likely have trouble using them? i forsee delays in the lines...perhaps i will get there early.

and yes, they could have easily made the machines to leave a reciept or overall voter printout to record votes. this stinks of fraud. and why is it that these machines just HAPPEN to be landing in swing voter states? hmmmmmm

Linkalicious
great question.

I DO know that every polling location should have atleast 2 "traditional" ways of voting as an alternative to using the touch screens. I think they are mostly for the handicapped because the digital booths are tiny, but i'm sure anyone can vote in the traditional way.

I would suggest it just to be as thorough as possible.

Jackie Malfoy
A voting machine is a machine and that is all.Just because we try somethng new does not mean there will be mistakes.
I don't see why we have to even inprove it.Bush won last time he ran and that is that.Changing the machine is not going to make a difference.
Being that it was the dems idea makes it almost pitfful.This is not going to win them the elecation so why even try it?
If they think they are going to lose and blame the machine for it.
Well that sounds a little childness to me.Who wins is going to win and the machines is not going to make a difference.I think this is a sorry amepted by the Dems.
But it is ok for the Republicans because this means the dems don't think they can win!GO BUSH!JM Happy Dance

PVS
ummm....a ballot with no paper trail is not a partisan issue.
sure, democrats are more suspicious, but the bottom line is a recount is now impossible. it blows my freaking mind that people act like such sheep and never question. oh sure, computers NEVER crash and lose information, and nobody has EVER tampered with a computer...

..nothing to see here, go back to sleep zzzzzzzzzzz


furthermore, i really dont see how you can turn this topic into "GO BUSH!" how the hell does a lack of protection of our democratic process lead to "GO BUSH!"???

Darth Revan
I think that the digital machines would be fine if they printed out an actual physical copy of the ballots, which would be so simple and might end up saving both sides so much trouble... I smell fraud.

Imaginary
I agree, but I still think manual voting is safer...

Silver Stardust
I agree...if they could keep some paper record like a printout, that way in case of a computer crash they still have a record of the votes.

Thankfully Illinois doesn't use those. At least, not that I know of.

Jackie Malfoy
I wanted to end my post with go bush because I felt like it!Btw that picture of yours is very distrubing! laughing JM

Linkalicious
We just got served by a 14 year old who's comparing Kerry to Big Brother...as oppose to George Bush. Also might I add...one that was a mere 10 years old when Bush was put into office.

Pretty much sums up why you have to be 18 to vote...Well that and she spent more time coloring her post than doing little things like SPACING after a sentence.

Jackie Malfoy
How nice for you to put judgement on me.I fear for the world of eighteen years old like you who is going to vote for Kerry and ruin my future!
Making if you spend more time on your post and not anyone's elses you will be able to make a wise choice on voting this year.May god bless these kids who can vote,
and still are simple mined!JM roll eyes (sarcastic)

PVS
what would relieve me is if any bush supporters expressed concern
over this. please, can an educated republican please address this issue in a nonpartisan way so that i can sleep tonight?

elections can now be rigged with no evidence of tampering.
this means that democrats could also rig the election, anyone can.

i think certain issues are no-brainers and are not open to partisan debate.
this is an infringement on democracy, with an idiotic fool's trust of the system that makes me think of communism. this is more power taken away from the PEOPLE. not democrats, THE PEOPLE. rendering a recount impossible is an mockery what america stands for, and the foundation it was built upon.

FOR THE PEOPLE

Linkalicious
I'm not judging you on your age alone, I'm judging you particularly on your comment.

who are you to say that your future will be ruined by Kerry? he hasn't even been put in a position to make changes on the level of George Bush.

The reason I make an issue of your age is because you have NO idea what changes have gone on since the time you were a little 4th grade 10 year old.

Do you know anything about their policy on education? their foreign policy? their eceonomic policy? anything?

Until you're old enough to start paying your own bills, and learning what the value of a dollar is, I don't see why your opinion on the matter should be a valid one.

Bush has installed the closest thing this country has ever seen to Big Brother when he signed the Patriot Act...yet you claim Kerry is Big Brother? Please....explain that.

I'm making a wise decision by voting for Kerry this year, becaues the past four years with Bush have shown a steady decrease in the day to day world I live in.

Will Kerry be better than Bush...NO ONE knows. But putting Kerry in office is a risk I'm willing to take if it means preventing the "simple minded" from running our country into the ground. One of the greastest countries in the world...run by the simple minded...just what we need.

PVS
please, take the presidential debate here:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f11/t311146.html

Linkalicious
quiet you chattering monkey!

PVS
stick out tongue

Silver Stardust
Nice sig, PVS laughing out loud

Did you guys hear that 58,000 ballots already went missing in Florida?

PVS
what a surprise!!!

and im sure they didnt just HAPPEN to be from a predominately democrat district...(note sarcasm)

can you post the article?

Jackie Malfoy
I think bush did a great job as president so far and he will do even better if he is elecated the second time.If Kerry was president instead of bush then I don't think Kerry would do a good job.
Kerry is like big brother in alot of ways he had his way he would do what big brother did in the book.Any of the dems would love to have that kind of power over the people!
I hope you read the book because if you did not then I would not say anything if I were you because it means you did not understand it!JM I say it again GO BUSH! Happy Dance

PVS
and i think your are being saddly redundant in the way that you're redundant. if you would stop and read your redundant post before hitting "submit reply" you would realise how redundant you are being.
see what i mean?

you have never read 'brave new world', you have no idea of it, and you are making yourself seem entirely ignorant, especially since this is a thread on digital voting machine and NOT a debate on who would make a better president.

so please take this to one of the many presidential debate threads, and then you can be as redundant as you please, and post meaningless cheers for your candidate in the same fashion in which you rought for your favorite football team...ok?

GO BUSH!!! Happy Dance
GO BRONCOS!!! Happy Dance

Jackie Malfoy
You know there was a easy way of telling me this.All you had to do is say we are talking about machines not bush.And not say anything after that.
But instead you had to countune being ignorant and go on when there was no reason too.Are you sure I am the one being ignorant?I think you should look over your posts kid because I am not the one being ignorant you are.
Ok lets go back to talking about the machines shall we?Good!JM Happy Dance

PVS
you mean like i did yesterday? i guess you were just too busy ignoring the topic.

Darth Surgent
Okay JM, let's talk about the machines.

I hope that by the time you are old enough to use said machines, that you will have demonstrated some sort of independent thought, rather than vomiting out the rhetoric that your mother/father hammered into you.

....What? It was about the machines.DS Happy Dance

Jackie Malfoy
My voting has nothering to with my parents.I vote Republican because that is what I choose to be!The sentor of CA Pointed out stuff that a Republican is and I am all he said!
As for the machines I had said before it does not make a difference what kind of machines we use.Who ever wins wins!
If the Dems however make us go through another Fla Recount I will crack however!JM Happy Dance roll eyes (sarcastic)

PVS
so, if kerry won...and after the elections suspisions were rampant that democracts had rigged the ballot, would you simply say "oh well, he won, so he won"

not that i think you would give a thoughtful answer on this, since you missed the point that its possible to tamper with these machines, and that there is a high rate of error. you described this as 'childish' i believe?

"Very creative PVS did you think of that all on your own?"


think of WHAT on my own!?!?? the topic? read the freaking papers, or just watch fox news, more your pace.

Jackie Malfoy
It is weild because I was not talking to you but someone else and you had to come in and say something.You must have a big mouth that you can't control to do this.
If Kerry won I would say fine he won I would be mad that so many stupid people voted for him but they will find out later on anyway.If he wins he wins!
I read alot of papers adn watch alot of tv.Also that is not what I mean but since you like to acuse me without knowing the whole thing then fine.
But again that is not what I was talking about.JM Happy Dance

PVS
2 things

1-you avoided the heart of the question, in that i asked you....ahhh wtf is the point, you are obviously avoiding it on purpose.

2-you typed "Very creative PVS did you think of that all on your own?"
in case you dont know, I am PVS, and I was curious as to what the hell you were talking about

can you please just say nothing unless you have something remotely intelligent and related to say? pretty please?

MornGlory
FOUR MORE YEARS!!!!!!!!!!!!

PVS
yeah, ok...off topic

DUH...GO RED SOX!!!

Imaginary
JM there's no point in arguing with PVS he kills any Bush supporter that crosses his path

Storm
According to BBC' s Daniel Lak, early voting, which has been going on for more than a week, shows that new electronic voting machine technology is much slower than the old punch-card method.

Just a few weeks after that voting standoff in 2000, a group of computer scientists, mechanical engineers, and political scientists from the California Institute of Technology and the Massachusetts Institute of Technology started examining the vast mosaic of voting laws, procedures, and equipment across the United States.

Since then members of the Caltech-MIT Voting Technology Project have observed hundreds of local elections, and periodically released recommendations on improving voting procedures.

The group reports that 4 million to 6 million votes were lost in 2000. Of those:
1.5 million to 2 million were lost because of faulty equipment and confusing ballots
1.5 million to 3 million were lost because of registration mix-ups
Up to 1 million were lost because of problems with polling place operations
And there were unknown losses because of absentee ballot problems.

That is worrying. And the apparent loss of 58,000 absentee forms in Broward County is just unacceptable.

eleveninches
whats wrong with a traditional paper ballot likt they have here in the uk.
An electronic ballot is unsafe and can easily be hacked

Jackie Malfoy
As if you have any thing intellligent to say which you don't.I had been saying alot of stuff that I find intelligent as for you you had said none.
I answeared your question I also said never mind because if I exclaim it to you, you would not understand anyway!
So why say anything to you?Anyway what does PVS stand for?JM Btw my name is Jackie! Happy Dance

PVS
so if the ballots were rigged in favor of kerry you would not mind?
*cough*bullshit*cough*

anyway, yes storm, that Broward County debacle is unacceptable. if the election came to a close and 50000+ votes vanished, even that would be unacceptable, never mind so early in the game. its a joke and heads had better roll!!!

not to mention that Broward County just HAPPENS to be predominately democrat...

look, im not saying that george bush is personally behind these scams, but they ARE republicans who are doing this crime against the people. bush should not accept blame, but why the hell does he turn a blind eye? stupidity.

by an honest move such as condeming such acts and demanding an immediate investigation, bush could wash his hands clean of this scandal...and make no mistake, it IS a scandal, and its only just begun. just WAIT to nov2.
but he's not the sharpest tool in the shed, and dispite what his administration thinks, people are paying attention, and this does not look good for them.

Jackie Malfoy
Yes I would not mind! coughasscough!anyway ok if Bush won on tuesday would you mind?Or would you say "He cheated?"I bet you would think he cheated!
When it is not possible that he did cheat!So why even bring that up?You are losing this battle my friend.This is a girl who ever gives up!
Anyway back to the voting machines which you seen to had gotten off topic and instead is flaming me.Not a good way to debate my friend.
JM

PVS
um, your arguement makes no sense, you ignore fact and ramble on about it not being possible to rig the voting machines.

and i have not flamed you yet as you have called me an 'ass', but whatever. i think you need to go chat on aol for a couple of years, grow up a little, and come back when your ready to not just post for the sake of posting.

and the post which you quoted is ENTIRELY dedicated to the topic, which i dont expect you to know since you've been ignoring this debate entirely and just trying to get attention. how's it feel?

Jackie Malfoy
As someone who thinks he knows alot about Dems and Republican you should know that a Elephant is for Republican and a Dem is a donkey(as known as an ass!)
If you did not know this and I did then maybe you know more then what you are saying! roll eyes (sarcastic) Anyway I had not inored this thread as the person who wrote this thread should know more stuff about it before even starting it.
But I guess you bite off more then you can chrew because you seen to not know alot of stuff that someone your age should know.Anyway should we back to the topic and you can stop responding to me and acting like a imature jerk or keep flaming each other until your thread is locked.
The choice is up to you.Know that if you want to annore me then stop responding and acted mature.Or if you keep on argeeing with me thinking you can keep flaming me and think that I am going to give up(which I will not)and prove that you are not the older mature person that has yet to prove to me that you are.
THen let it go!You are geting way to upset.You dems are all the same geting upset over nothering!Give it a rest!JM
Happy Dance laughing roll eyes (sarcastic)

PVS
no, there is a big difference between:
1-upset
and
2-irritated

you are irritating me by:

1-making this yet another presidential debate when the topic is the dangers of eliminating the possability of a recount from our democracy.

2-accusing me of flaming and being immature while you post whatever asenine comment you please, which by the way make no sense and make you seem quite foolish.

3-constantly calling me names and accusing me of calling YOU names. maybe in your middle school your little strategy works, but it wont work here.

so anyway, you are right about one thing, in that i should not sink to your level. so say whatever moronic last word you want to say and please leave it at that. surely there are other threads you can be ruining right now?

Jackie Malfoy
Actly If you read my first post you will see clearly that I had started saying that new machines is not going to help anything and that there is no way either one can cheat! (Maybe you should get your eyes check!)
As for wracking a thread I had not done nothering you had bring this on yourself you are wracking this thread by acting like a jerk and bush hater.
Clearly this was your choice when you started this thread.Or why would you even wrote this thread.We need someone to start a thread like this that is on nobody's side.
That way it is fair!But not you, you had to start this thread so you can start something and you did.
So now that I am here to say shall we countined or do you want to lock this thread or go on with your bush hater words?
You should had really thought that this is going to happen when you made this thread.But I guess you don't think pass tomorrow1JM roll eyes (sarcastic)

Ok question how can one cheat on the voting machines?If there is a way that you think bush did last year then please exclaim it to me.JM Happy Dance Victory is mined!(stewie family guy)

PVS
yeah huh? no expression

so anyway, just found this article:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Touch-screen bugs, laptop crashes and server problems crop up in pre-election day voting




With less than a week to go before the US presidential election, dozens of voters in Florida may have already been disenfranchised as a result of technical glitches in the computers supporting the state's early voting process.
Since early voting began on 18 October in Florida and in at least seven other key states, voters have reported hundreds of problems to the Election Incident Reporting System, an online database founded by grassroots voter organisations, including the Verified Voting Foundation and Computer Professionals for Social Responsibility.

Thirty-two states allow residents to vote at the polls before Election Day.

Of the 666 incidents reported in Florida, 33 have been linked to alleged voting machine malfunctions in Broward, Duval, Lee, Marion, Miami-Dade, Orange, Palm Beach, Sarasota and Volusia counties.

In Broward County, for example, some voters complained of electronic touch-screen systems that presented incomplete ballots.

Alia Faraj, spokeswoman for Florida Deputy Secretary of State Dave Mann, said contrary to news reports, there have been no problems during early voting related to any of the touch-screen electronic voting systems in Florida. The only problems that did occur, she said, involved laptop computers that were used to check voter registration rolls in some of the counties.

Those problems were fixed immediately by a simple reboot of the computers, said Faraj. "The touch-screen systems have been operating as planned," she said.

Will Doherty, executive director of the San Francisco-based Verified Voting Foundation, said despite Florida's assertion that the malfunctions of the laptops handling voter registrations were minor, his organisation is aware of dozens of voters who were turned away from the polls "because of that minor system crash". Doherty also said there have been multiple reports related to touch-screen calibration problems. Some voters have reported that when they touched the screen next to their candidate's name the screen highlighted the opposing candidate, according to Doherty.

In addition to the counties in Florida, localities in Colorado, Tennessee and Texas, as well as two-thirds of the counties in Georgia, have experienced connection problems between their early voting sites and the central server where voter registration databases reside, according to Votersunite.org, a nonpartisan, grassroots voter advocacy group.

In President George W Bush's home state of Texas, some Travis County and Austin County voters complained of touch-screen voting systems that marked a vote for Bush even though they voted Democratic across the board. In Houston, only five voting machines out of approximately 20 were operating, causing long lines and forcing some voters to leave polling places without voting.

"If problems come up on 2 November, and they most certainly will, voters can expect to stand in long lines or not vote," said John Gideon, cofounder of Votersunite.org. "The fact that elections officials are again beta-testing our voting system in a live election is incomprehensible."

Alfie Charles, a spokesman for Sequoia Voting Systems, said it is important not to confuse a minor glitch in a voter registration system with the process of voting on an electornic voting system. So far, all reports are that the actual direct recording equipment touch-screen systems are operating normally, he said.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

damn...666 errors? that cant be a good omen

but there you go...better get to the polls early

i like how all the errors just HAPPEN to work in bush's favor.
i have yet to read a single article where a computer error led to
a voter accidentally voting for kerry.

if any wish to challenge that, i await a posted article to the contrary.

Jackie Malfoy
Very long but interesting!Thanks for sharing it with me!
Well I will be back! evil face See you around!JM Happy Dance

Lumanix
http://www.alternet.org/bloggers/evan/40755/

Relative bump.

PVS
Originally posted by Jackie Malfoy
Very long but interesting!Thanks for sharing it with me!
Well I will be back! evil face See you around!JM Happy Dance

my god........
its the ghost of idots past fear

Bardock42
Originally posted by Jackie Malfoy
Very long but interesting!Thanks for sharing it with me!
Well I will be back! evil face See you around!JM Happy Dance

That is either interesting as in "I didn't read it" or interesting as in "I started reading it, but stopped at the first word I didn't understand..which would be "yeah" in this case".

Deano
http://youtube.com/watch?v=W2s6zfBkJiE

smoker4
Originally posted by PVS
my god........
its the ghost of idots past fear

laughing J.M

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