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argueI guess people argue about the weather so that smiley is the best i could do.
Torch burnt her once and it took Dr. Doom to help her. I never finished that series so that's all i recall.

It was an accident that Torch burnt her. He was aiming for Wolverine, who was beating up Mr. Fantastic.

And Storm should be the winner. She's definitely a better fighter, is way smarter, has more heart and is more strongwilled, and can electrocute Torch in a matter of seconds. I know Torch can fry her also, but still, Storm has much better cards than Torch.

storm

I never saw that comic myself and I'm still unsure as to the full extent of the Human Torch's powers. He has been smothered by Venom, so I think Storm is more than capable of snuffing out his flame for at least a brief time to deliver the finishing blow.

which comic did venom smother him?

I cannot remember the exact number (Amazing Spiderman #360?), but it was the comic where Venom believed Spiderman to be dead and stranded himself on a deserted island.

Human Torch accompanied Spiderman to make a visit with Venom about Carnage and seeing Peter alive again, he attacked. Venom smothered Human Torch's flame and nearly drowned him during the encounter. Although it wasn't a one-on-one fight between the two, I was using it as an example on subduing Torch's flame.

I could have elaborated Storm creating a "tropical rain storm" effect to subdue him as she did with Pyro, but the Venom battle was the first thing that popped up in my head.

dont worry bout the number, i just wanted the comic title, thats all, thx though

storm would rain him out strike him with lightning and tornado him halfway across texas

you cant "rain out" the human torch

i read some where that he needs like 5 gallons of water per square inch to put out his flame

How long would it take for Storm to conjure rain? It's not like Thor where he can conjure it in an instant. In that time, Torch would've KO'd Storm five times over. And I don't think rain is enough to extinguish Torch.

Actually, there have been numerous occasions where "conjuring" of weather have been instantaneous. She doesn't need to decorate the whole sky in order to utilize her abilities as a number of cases illustrated as if it was coming from her cape or from her hands.

If Johnny went supernova, her entire storm might just evaporate and that blast might kill her as well.

Venom didn't smother the Human Torch in the Spiderman Comic. He ran in underneath the sand and grabbed Johnny by the ankle pulling him into water to put out his flames.

Then Spidey had to run for it like a pus.sy until he could calm Venom down to tell him about Carnage.

It was #2 in the 3 part mini-series that introduced Carnage to the world.

But Johnny's not going to run up to Storm and do a nova blast right away.

Yeah Venom could have killed Torch had he been paying attention to him. The nova flame barely tickled him. As far as being doused, Torch can be doused fairly easily, Spider-Man has done it numerous times and he never really tries to hurt Johnny. I think Storm probably has this, though I can't stand her character.

In Contest of Champions II, I think Torch wasted her. Although that was Claremont...*sigh*.

and why not? hes a teenage guy, he will want to show of his power in one mighty blast

Teenager? He hasn't been a teenager in ages. The guy's nearly 30 and he doesn't show off his power anymore. A nova blast would incinerate Storm, he doesn't work that way.

She can generate a tornado to deflect the flame and create an air pocket inside of it that could shield her from the blast. I'm not saying she can sit on the sun but for a period of time she could survive. Did you see her in the latest X-men take that nuke into space. I think she could survive the blast. With a nuke the radiation would probably quickly kill her.

well torch can increase his intensity to where he is white hot and just maintain it...its not a supernova but he is surrounded by his Nova flame. When he exhibited a second mutation, kinda like the Thing did, and his powers reached the next level, he was perpetually white hot and couldnt flame off. It was a result of the Inferno story. When he had this power level Kang used him for one of his plans. In the perpetually white hot level, his flame could not be extinguished. He flew right through the planet Mars! and he was able to stay aflame in outerspace indefinitely. While white hot Storm would not be able to put him out, her best chance would be the lighting. However, Storm is not as diverse with her powers as the Torch has been. She is a better strategist and leader though...and a hell of a hand to hand combatant.

i think storm has got this one down, she is capable of creating tropical wheather and tons of tornadoes (as seen on x men the movie) spidey and other heros/villans have easily taken out torches flames. as for the super nova, torch would not go into that right in the beginning, he likes to draw out the power of his enimies, then uses it. Almost like a trump card he keeps handy, if worse comes to worse

She can just make a sunami come out of a lake and kill him

yea but by the time she summoned up a sunami she would be in a very uncomfortable cage of fire...torch's manipulation is practically instant and can be used more diversly. Storm is not going to win using her power, or powers...she could only take advantage of torch's character flaws or brash behavior...or maybe hand to hand fighting if she ever manages to take out his flame (unlikely). Torch rarely uses his powers to absorb and then redirect...he has plenty of power inside him already.

storm will just let it rain let it rain let it rain
storm win by a long shot

Storm is not nearly as powerful as people make her out to be, she's a poor man's Thor. Yeah she can make it rain, but I think Torch's nova flame is unaffected by that. And a tsunami? Where the hell is she going to conjure this up? Are they fighting on the beach? I wish they'd kill off her character already.

this is one though question now i would go with but I think umm....... err..... maybe umm..... johnny storm
either way this will be good

Discuss

just human torch and storm no weps

neither of them use weapons anyway

this one is close

ill hand it to storm because although torch is more deadly he wouldnt resort to killing unless neccisary and storm has more non lethal ways of winning

It's closer than Torch Vs Spidey, I'll give her that.

I don't think any amount of rain or wind is gonna be able to do anything to Torch though.

I think Torch would win more out of 10, if not all.

-AC

Storm already got burned up once...she has almost no defense against the Torch

He almost killed her........by accident.

If he wanted to, she'd be space dust.

-AC

The thing being...he wouldn't want to. And the fact that he doesn't kill removes the "insta-fry" option from the table - it's out of character.

So given that his most direct attack wouldn't be used, he'd resort to doing other flame tricks. But I think he'd come up short in the end. Storm has more potent non-lethal options at her disposal, or could just douse him. Johnny is notoriously easy to deflame. Wolverine did it with a fire extinguisher.

I'd point out the fact that Storm already beat him in Contest of Champions, but I already know how AC will respond to that, so I digress.

Contest of Champions was written by the guy who believed Rogue could beat Hulk and Gambit could beat Gladiator by hitting him with a pack of playing cards. Yes, he actually produced that. I don't think anything he's put out for many years has maintained a shred of balance, sensibility or reason.

Anyways, I just don't think any amount of rain or wind will beat him. Wolverine extinguishing him is ridiculous.

-AC

I don't necessarily agree with Rogue beating Hulk, but remember that Claremont CREATED Gladiator. That's HIS character. Gambit is his character too. If he says one of the characters he created can do something to another character he created and knock them out, well...

But I agreed with most of the battle results in COC. Storm is his favorite character and she was EASILY owned by Thor. Panther, after an epic battle, was edged by Captain America. I felt all the results were believable, so I have no problem with that issue or the portrayals of the characters involved.

But...that's off-topic.



It would be if it were isolated. Off the top of my head:

Punisher did almost exactly the same thing to Torch, with a fire hose
Hulk extinguished him with a clap
AIM agents extinguished him with foam guns
Gets extinguished pretty much as soon as he hits any body of water.

BTW - that was Millar's Wolverine, not Claremont's, in case you were about to get angry at him again.

And even if Storm couldn't extinguish him with rain, she can create a vacuum that removes air from a localized area. Without air, Torch can't combust.

Out of respect, will save my replies to the former for another thread.

Non-isolated, I agree. However, the latter says he'd have to be isolated.

So....depends on environment.

-AC

Sorry - I missed the reference. What do you mean?

"And even if Storm couldn't extinguish him with rain, she can create a vacuum that removes air from a localized area. Without air, Torch can't combust."

^^^That bit. Sorry, bit of confusion there.

-AC

Ah, ok. Yeah, in a closed environment, Storm doesn't really have enough maneuverability to do what she needs to do before getting really badly hurt. But in an open environment, I give her the advantage.

Then again, a bolt of lightning should be just as lethal as a bolt of fire, which should make it a quickdraw even in a closed environment. Does Torch have improved durability in torch form? Could he survive a direct full blast of lightning?

I dunno if he could, I'm no way gonna say yes, coz she can sure conjure em up and he has zero protection.

However, he is not short of whipping things up. He is capable of melting her with a heavy Nova beam.

-AC

didn't we agree that he wasn't gonna do that?? well anyway if not storm won't just be standing there. if we are using c.o.c then storm had almost won with a big gust of wind. he was flamed out and falling to the ground. he flew away at last second. he then led her to an under ground parking lot. he was testing her abality to manuever in closed spaces and she did well. then he shot a blast of fire or something and storm easily dodged. then he started melting the support walls so the building would fall down. he was looking for storm and a gust of wind came and he was pinned against a wall and at the same time storm was suppportingthe building by herself. she just put the building on top of him and the match was over.

and with that fight between storm and thor all he did was kiss her and something happened and she was done.

Yeah, I'm taking both the nova blast of death and the lightning blast of death off the table, since neither of them would resort to killing attacks. In that absence of Blasts of Death, I'd go with Storm, maybe 7/10.

Lots of FF vs. X-men threads up now. Sup with that?

X-Men have gained more credit than they deserve from this board overall. I stand by that opinion.

-AC

wtf? kissed her? what happend there?
i have none of the coc comics....i feel like i missed something relevant.

Hahaha you didn't. Well, to me.

Basically Contest of Champions is a mini-series created by Chris Claremont where people just fight. It doesn't matter who's stronger or better. It's fan voted, to add to that. The back story was written, but it didn't matter coz the outcome was fan decided. In it, Rogue beat Hulk, Storm beat Torch and Gambit beat the star-busting, planet moving Gladiator by throwing card at his head.

It's possibly the most non-canonical periodical there is.

Some disagree.

-AC

Hahaha you didn't. Well, to me.

Basically Contest of Champions is a mini-series created by Chris Claremont where people just fight. It doesn't matter who's stronger or better. It's fan voted, to add to that. The back story was written, but it didn't matter coz the outcome was fan decided. In it, Rogue beat Hulk, Storm beat Torch and Gambit beat the star-busting, planet moving Gladiator by throwing card at his head.

It's possibly the most non-canonical periodical there is.

Some disagree.

-AC

Hahaha you didn't. Well, to me.

Basically Contest of Champions is a mini-series created by Chris Claremont where people just fight. It doesn't matter who's stronger or better. It's fan voted, to add to that. The back story was written, but it didn't matter coz the outcome was fan decided. In it, Rogue beat Hulk, Storm beat Torch and Gambit beat the star-busting, planet moving Gladiator by throwing card at his head.

It's possibly the most non-canonical periodical there is.

Some disagree.

-AC

Hahaha you didn't. Well, to me.

Basically Contest of Champions is a mini-series created by Chris Claremont where people just fight. It doesn't matter who's stronger or better. It's fan voted, to add to that. The back story was written, but it didn't matter coz the outcome was fan decided. In it, Rogue beat Hulk, Storm beat Torch and Gambit beat the star-busting, planet moving Gladiator by throwing card at his head.

It's possibly the most non-canonical periodical there is.

Some disagree.

-AC

Hahaha you didn't. Well, to me.

Basically Contest of Champions is a mini-series created by Chris Claremont where people just fight. It doesn't matter who's stronger or better. It's fan voted, to add to that. The back story was written, but it didn't matter coz the outcome was fan decided. In it, Rogue beat Hulk, Storm beat Torch and Gambit beat the star-busting, planet moving Gladiator by throwing card at his head.

It's possibly the most non-canonical periodical there is.

Some disagree.

-AC

Hahaha you didn't. Well, to me.

Basically Contest of Champions is a mini-series created by Chris Claremont where people just fight. It doesn't matter who's stronger or better. It's fan voted, to add to that. The back story was written, but it didn't matter coz the outcome was fan decided. In it, Rogue beat Hulk, Storm beat Torch and Gambit beat the star-busting, planet moving Gladiator by throwing card at his head.

It's possibly the most non-canonical periodical there is.

Some disagree.

-AC

Hahaha you didn't. Well, to me.

Basically Contest of Champions is a mini-series created by Chris Claremont where people just fight. It doesn't matter who's stronger or better. It's fan voted, to add to that. The back story was written, but it didn't matter coz the outcome was fan decided. In it, Rogue beat Hulk, Storm beat Torch and Gambit beat the star-busting, planet moving Gladiator by throwing card at his head.

It's possibly the most non-canonical periodical there is.

Some disagree.

-AC

alpha... wtf?

Oopsie daise.

My comp had a spaztic attack. Sorry guys and girls.

Literally never realised till you told me.

When I posted it, there was only one. That's weird. Anyway, sorry. Tron can delete or something.

Apologies once again. Never happens, so you KNOW it was a genuine accident.

-AC

ok... i think you got your point across though

Watch how many people reply "Yo Alpha what's up with that".

Before you do, I want you all to note that it was a rare computer malfunction.

Not me.

-AC

i trust ya...

(yeah right pr)

Hahahahaha.

You guys.

-AC

BLACK POWER (even though I'm white)

in coc gladiator and gambit didn't fight. and if your refering to the end where rogue beat everyone- it wasn't really her, someone was inside her body which made her more powerful and she had like everyone mind controlled so they didn't even try to fight her until they were all done. and even if it was fan based people have already said that they think it was fair. torches flame can be exxtinguished easily, it has happened many times before. storm has many options of winning this fight.

Fan-voted? I don't remember it being fan-voted. You sure about that?

AC said it was- and supposidly he's never wrong

I don't remember if Contest Of Champions was fan-voted, but it was stupid.
It even suggested that Wolverine beat Hercules.
Stupid.

*smacks stormfront13*

C'mon man! Wake up! LOL

Here, I'll good look it up and be right back...

i'm confused- what??

Nope, not fan voted. Or if it is, it's been completely hidden from the entire web.

so then storms wins this - and by the way galactic no offense but I'd thought that i made the same thread a while back and someone made this one before me so this is the third time that it was created. lol

storm should technically win this since she already easily beat her right??

Yes it was factually fan voted.

It had a base story, by the outcomes were decided by fans.

I've got the comics, I suggest you own them before commenting.

-AC

ok I own them also and no where does it say it was fan voted?? and if it was then where did you stumble upon this information because your the only person that seems to think it is

can someone please print the results of the matches please... from that it will be fairly easy to determine whether they wer efan voted or not...

It was on Marvel.Com when the books were concepts.

It provided the back story then asked who should win in a fight. Fans voted. Claremont overode some of them to get the win for Rogue, coz fans voted Hulk.

Either way, all that is irrelevant to Storm Vs Torch. If you use C.O.C, then it's gonna be different result for you. For me it's not.

-AC

from what I can remember
storm VS human torch- storm
ironman VS psylock-iron man
i think it was maybe x-factor VS iron man-x-factor
storm VS thor-thor
dare davil VS deadpool- deadpool
thing VS phoenix- phoenix
cap america VS blck panther- cap

there is more but I can't remember

AC- rogue didn't really fight anyone! not until the very end and even then it wasn't really her, it you have them then you'd know

It was the Brood Queen. Yes I know. For arguments sake and topic, I refer to it as Rogue.

This isn't relevant. You go by CoC, fine with me. Not a problem.

-AC

I remember she absorbed the powers of all these different people and went hog wild, throwing "captain america's photonic shield with the strength of the Hulk" and whatnot.

...and you don't find that utterly dumb?

Whatever then man.

-AC

that isn't that dumb cause it fits in the plot well any for the record I have coc

Yes but we all know exactly WHAT Contest of Champions was created for, don't we?

Let's not dwell on this. I've explained it before.

-AC

What's dumb about Rogue (being possessed) absorbing a punch of powers and using them in combination? That's what she does...

that is beside the point storm can still defeat torch, and she has numerous ways of doing it

k AC demi is right and you know it

ok, no more posts for me on this thread either, it's gone off topic. I've stated my case. AC's stated his. Cool. Cool.

"k AC demi is right and you know it"

Quit apple polishing. Jesus.

"that is beside the point storm can still defeat torch, and she has numerous ways of doing it"

Well then CoC isn't needed is it?

Topic.

-AC

once again you are the only one off topic and I brought up C.O.C to say that she has already beat torch. i don't even know why you said that cause before that i still stated that storm should win

Ok good then.

That's your belief.

-AC

well a lot of people believe storm will win- it happened in my thread and this one

Yeah? I don't believe she would. Good for you if you disagree.

-AC

yes actually it is

Excellent. That's why I said it.

-AC

i don't care what you said

Excellent, happy for you.

Topic?

-AC

well no one was posting about the topic- so i think storm will win cause his flame has been extinguished too many times imo. storm can avoid being hit a lot for a long time. she can blow him out with her wind then hit him with lightning or something clever like she always does.

I think who would win depends on whether this was a fight to the death or a competitive duel. If it was the former then it could be argued in both cases. Johnny has said that in hurricane winds the only weapon in his arsenal capable of reaching storm would be a nova blast (Contest of ChampionsII). So he only has one weapon that could finish her off just like that. But that is assuming storm would be using such winds which is very likely given its a battle for survival. It takes a great amount of physical exertion for him to use his nova blasts and storm is very fast and manouevrable. I dont think shes gonna be an easy target and if she has him at a disadvantage anyway with her winds then it wouldnt be too much of a problem to finish him off with lightning or by battering him about a bit. In hurricane winds Johnny cant fly and he cant flame on unless he's goin for a nova blast so i think he's at too much of a disadvantage. Id say storm. If it was a competitive duel id also go with storm. No im not a fanboy lol. The reason being as was said earlier she has way more non lethal weapons to use against him. For Johnny to be a worthy opponent he's gonna have to be airborne and the skys Storms domain. She could just pin him down with winds and render him unconscious by removing the oxygen in the air around him. Or simply with a low yield lightning bolt. Storm all the way. What do u think?

i dont think rogue beating hulk is that unbelievable but thats off topic

like i said earlier its not torches style to kill so storm has more ways of winning this fight because her power is more diverse

torch doesnt have to use lethal force...He is more proficient at sucking oxygen away from an enemy...or heat...and his flame isnt going to be extinguished by wind or rain...that is laughable...and ignorant...if he burns his flame intense enough, it isnt even extinguished in space...such as when he was stuck in nova flame after the Inferno story arc.

"torch doesnt have to use lethal force...He is more proficient at sucking oxygen away from an enemy...or heat...and his flame isnt going to be extinguished by wind or rain...that is laughable...and ignorant...if he burns his flame intense enough, it isnt even extinguished in space...such as when he was stuck in nova flame after the Inferno story arc.|

The inferno story arc occurred back in the early 90's. Contest of Champions II occurred about 3 yrs ago and during storms fight with the human torch his flame did very well get snuffed out by her focused hurricane force winds. He was pinned down he couldnt flame on even though he tried. He commented that nothing short of a nova blast could reach her. But since she hadnt resulted in lethal force he never either. She then proceeded to drop half a building on his head lol

I'm gonna use Contest of Champions when someone creates a Gambit Vs Gladiator thread so I can say Gambit would win by throwing cards at his head.

CoC was a storyline vehicle man, it's hardly canonical. Going by it or not, it is a bit ignorant to say she could blow his flame out.

-AC

So it's not current Human Torch we're using?

Either way she could still pin him down with winds. Greatly reducing his threat to her person. All she'd have to do is avoid his blasts which she's very capable of doing and then kill with lightning or toss him about with her winds. He's only a major threat to her airborne and he cant match her in the sky she would turn it against him.

k first of all his flame was put out by a fire extinguisher. storm is extremely capable of taking it out. storm has avoided sentinals, gun fire, and spideys webing, the list goes on and on. she has numerous ways of taking her out. torch couldn't take away her oxygen because this has already happened when she was buried and she just brought in her own wind and made her own oxygen sothats not gonna work. can torch create his own oxygen?? prolly not and a small tornado can take away all of his oxygen as well as take out his flame. with his flame out she can pin him to the ground or a wall like she did in C.O.C and he couldn't flame on. form this poitn she could either hit him with lightning or freeze him because she has done both of these on multiple occasions. imo storm wins all 10/10

A small tornado can take away all his oxygen? Hey, can I dry off a napkin by pouring water on it? Can I remove the pickles from a bucket by throwing handfuls of pickles at it?

storm will take this

hahahaha

sarcasm is the lowest form of humor. i was reading that when i read your entry. creepy.

What can I say? I can be a very basic person.

And so the ignorance of "She could blow his flame out" beats the realism of "Torch really could burn her to a crisp".

-AC

Nah, the realism of "Torch could burn her to a crisp" matches the realism of "Storm could electrocute him Texas criminal style".

The opinion of "She could blow his flame out" matches several instances of his flame actually being put out. By a fire extinguisher, no less.

TWICE.

Yeah but it's extreme ignorance to write that, considering that he can stay flamed on in space.

-AC

It doesn't make sense that he can stay flamed on in space. How? You need oxygen to even generate flame. It doesn't make sense, and it's overuled by the countless other times they've been in space and Torch has NOT been able to fly out there.

So it's basically - one instance of Johnny being flamed in space vs. several of him not being able to + being extinguished by a fire extinguisher, fire hose, foam generator, sprinkler system, and lake water.

No contest.

"It doesn't make sense that he can stay flamed on in space. How? You need oxygen to even generate flame. It doesn't make sense, and it's overuled by the countless other times they've been in space and Torch has NOT been able to fly out there."

There you go hugging your science books again. Does it make sense that Hulk can do what he does? That Spider-Man does what he does? No. Marvel Comics aren't pioneers of sense. They're not pioneers of realism.

Considering that it was cosmic rays that gave him his powers, what makes you so viciously sure that his flames are of Earth anyway? It's not like turning on a fireplace.

Using a fire extinguisher on him is pathetic and ignorant. If someone just walked up to Magneto with a reverse pole magnet and force him away, you'd think "Hang on....this is lame".

-AC

You can't just dismiss science entirely just because YOU don't like talking about it. It's 100% valid. There is scientific theory and scientific fact. Marvel uses both. It's scientific fact that flame doesn't work without oxygen. It's been used to defeat Johnny PLENTY of times. Every time he hits the water, his flame goes out. Every OTHER time he's been in space or in a vacuum, his flame has gone out. In every appearance he's ever had but one, his flame has gone out when faced with simiar circumstances.

In fact, I wanna know more about that storyline where someone said he WAS able to survive in space. How could he even breathe?!? There's something else to that storyline that the poster isn't telling us.



What makes me sure is that, unlike Firelord, whose flames ARE cosmic and who has a HISTORY of flying around in space AND underwater with his flame on, Torch has failed every time he's tried, except this one.



Yes, I would. Unless it kept happening, then I'd have to accept it as it being some bizarre weakness. As in the case of Torch, where MULTIPLE writers put him out the same way.

"You can't just dismiss science entirely just because YOU don't like talking about it. It's 100% valid. There is scientific theory and scientific fact. Marvel uses both. It's scientific fact that flame doesn't work without oxygen. It's been used to defeat Johnny PLENTY of times. Every time he hits the water, his flame goes out. Every OTHER time he's been in space or in a vacuum, his flame has gone out. In every appearance he's ever had but one, his flame has gone out when faced with simiar circumstances."

You can't say Marvel uses both and then write off their freedom to use the other. Which is exactly what you are doing. You can't adhere to one and then switch to the other when you don't like it. Why are you assuming I don't like talking about science? I love science. If I loved science to the point of applying it to Marvel, I wouldn't be a very happy guy.

"Yes, I would. Unless it kept happening, then I'd have to accept it as it being some bizarre weakness. As in the case of Torch, where MULTIPLE writers put him out the same way."

That's your problem. You feel that you are forced to accept. You're of able mind, you're not forced to accept anything. You can challenge whatever you want to.

-AC

This coming from the guy who dismissed Storm powering herself from a star saying that's nonsense because "no other writer had her do that"? Hypocracy isn't a Greek philosopher...

It's like this - you're saying that it's silly to think that Storm can blow his flame out, and you cite ONE instance of him being flamed on in space as evidence of that.

I'm saying Storm can blow or rain his flame out, and I cite MULTIPLE instances of him being flamed out by things far less powerful than her winds or rains.

So you could use your evidence to support your claim, but considering that I have multiple times the amount of evidence, you can hardly claim my position to be silly.

"This coming from the guy who dismissed Storm powering herself from a star saying that's nonsense because "no other writer had her do that"? Hypocracy isn't a Greek philosopher..."

I dismissed her doing so because she doesn't have that power. Never has she had that power. While we're technical, it's hypocricy.

This all comes down, I now know, to the fact that you are either afraid to or feel you don't have the right to challenge shit writing. If it's debateable fair enough. Storm powering a Star is so far in the river of stupidity and desperation that it's not funny.

So is using an extinguisher on Torch.

-AC

And that's YOUR problem. You can't seem to get past some paper description of someone's power to look into why it works that way. Storm controls the weather - but what is the weather? What does that mean? Once you find out, it makes perfect sense that she CAN channel the power of a star because a star's atmosphere is simply the star's weather.



That's so funny you'd say that. I was actually going to post the same thing about you. I challenge shit writing all the time. For example - Torch being able to flame on in space.



Another crazy coincidence! I was going to say the same thing about Torch flaming on in space! There's absolutely no rational reason how or why that could happen, and every other case of writing shows why. If you're going to judge "shit writing" which is subjective, the only way to even begin to objectify it is to compare it to other cases where he's been in that situation. If 98% of the time, he's getting put out by fire extinguishers, and 2% of the time he's flying in space with his flame on...which do you think better qualifies as "shit writing"?

"You can't seem to get past some paper description of someone's power to look into why it works that way. Storm controls the weather - but what is the weather? What does that mean? Once you find out, it makes perfect sense that she CAN channel the power of a star because a star's atmosphere is simply the star's weather."

Once again you make excuses. If every person lived up to some unbelievable farfetched version of their power, then there'd be many more candidates for most powerful in the MU. The X-Men bar Jean with Phoenix force are never ever regarded as anything involving "best" because the levels you assume they are capable of will never be reached.

"If 98% of the time, he's getting put out by fire extinguishers, and 2% of the time he's flying in space with his flame on...which do you think better qualifies as "shit writing"?"

Depends how literal we're being. Wolverine is no match for Torch, him getting the win via fire extinguisher is shit writing. That's my point, not flame outage. The nature of taking the win.

-AC

Waitasecond. Does that mean that every fireman in NY can take Human Torch out with their basic equipment?

What a shitty superhero.

Darkcrawler just proved my point beyond belief.

Torch Vs NY Fire dept? Are you gonna say the NY Fire dept? No. Using a fire extinguisher is lame. So is any writer who thought it was appropriate to end the fight that way.

-AC

And they are or are not reached based on the writers. Sue has limitless potential - some writers have her reach it. You don't complain about the fact that Sue can create bubbles in someone's brain, right? It's just a logical extension of her powers. This is no different.



But we're not talking about whether Wolverine could take Torch. We're talking about whether his flames can be put out by certain things. This was an example, among many.



Torch vs. NY Fire dept would be: Torch flies out of their range, and fire blasts them. NY Fire dept. can't fly and can't catch Torch. If Torch stood there flamed on and said, "Do your worst" - could the NYFD put him out? YES.

"Sue has limitless potential - some writers have her reach it. You don't complain about the fact that Sue can create bubbles in someone's brain, right? It's just a logical extension of her powers. This is no different."

Contradiction. You can't reach limits if you have none.

"But we're not talking about whether Wolverine could take Torch. We're talking about whether his flames can be put out by certain things. This was an example, among many. "

Again you dodge the point. The nature of the win, how it happened, not who took it.

"Torch vs. NY Fire dept would be: Torch flies out of their range, and fire blasts them. NY Fire dept. can't fly and can't catch Torch. If Torch stood there flamed on and said, "Do your worst" - could the NYFD put him out? YES."

Hahahahaha.

Well back on Earth for a second.....Torch has flown in the rain.

-AC

The fire extinguisher was pathetic writing.

We would need- delving into sceince for a minute- to assume the power of his flame was less than any fire which is beyond being controlled by a hand-held extinguisher.

Yeah I agree it's ridiculous to refer to non-canon events in a debate. That's like someone citing Wolverine's preposterous gutting of the Silver Surfer in that What If issue in a potential Wolvie/SS debate.

HE DID WHAT???

What If #81 (I think)..."What if the AoA had not ended". It features the coming of Galactus.

oh for f*ck sake...

My sentiments exactly...

Didn't wanna bring that up. Being a Surfer fan.

However, yes. It is possibly the most ridiculous development in comic history. It involved an X-Man too.

-AC

you really dont like them do you

You know for a fact that's not the case.

Colossus, Psylocke, Jean depending, Wolverine here and there, Cyclops on occasion. CYCLOPS.

Proves I don't hate the X-Men. Just think as a concept they are cheap, and rather lame. F4 don't need all those writers and changes. Nor do Avengers (save for the odd member change). X-Men do. Like Vic said, they're just a cash cow being milked constantly.

-AC

alpha i was kidding, hence the smilie...

i agree with some of what your saying, but they'll always be my favourite's because i was reading them before the madness set in...

Sorry to continue straying off topic, but who was the writer? I'm going to go home and check...my best guess...*drumroll* CLAREMONT! LOL!

Yeah I agree...I love the X-Men, but I hate it when people (and writers) try to inflate their importance in the MU. Tron said it best the other day...X-Men handle mutant problems, Avengers handle global problems, and the FF handle cosmic problems. Seems that someone in Marvel (likely Claremont) seems hellbent on raising the X-Men's stature to ridiculous levels (with constant powerups etc.) and it just pisses me off sometimes.

well anyway back on topic- AC we already agreed that torch wouldn't kill storm bu burning her to a crisp since he wouldn't do than. storm can take all his oxygen away in seconds, and he can't create his own so he's screwed. storm will just stop when he is knocked out. she has done it before then why can't she do it again?? storm is very capable of taking out his flame. if she does then all she has to do it knock him out with lihgtning, if she keeps in hitting him then she can do this.

what does the bananna mean??

Since when does controlling the weather include creating an airless vacuum?

she has taken away oxygen before by creating a small tornado.

How does blowing air containing oxygen remove oxygen?

she created a small tornado around jean grey while jean was posessed, it sucked the oxygen out of her body and she couldn't get any. if storm does the same thing she will prolly take out his flame as well as him

Pulling air out of someones lungs is different than pulling the oxygen out of the air.

well no one in the vicinity could breath so I figured it was

You're obsfucating - my point, that you've once again avoided, is that there are logical extensions to powers, and it just requires its wielder to use them. Sue's power didn't start that way - in the very beginning, she just used to turn invisible. There was no evidence she could create invisible objects. Then, one day, she learned that ability. That's been true with countless dozens of characters in comics.



I didn't dodge the point - you just didn't have one. The whole point of that example was to show a fire extinguisher taking out Torch. And there are others.



Good for Torch. It also rains on buildings on fire without putting it out. It's like this - Torch is fine as long as he generates more flame than the flame being put out. Obviously, regular rain wouldn't do that. But Storm directly hurricane force rain and wind at him would. So would fire extinguishers. Keep in mind, however, that there's nothing to stop him from flaming back on. He's just off for the time-being.

Don't confused power with volume. A fire-extinguisher can put out any fire, regardless of its "power", since it deprives the fire of oxygen, but it runs out before all the fire it put out. Torch only has his body's worth of fire around him - certainly enough to be extinguished by a fire extinguisher. And when Wolverine did it to him, he didn't use a handheld fire extinguisher, he activated the building's fire control system to spray Torch.

Except Contest of Champions is canon. Not a What If



No, he didn't write that What If. Sorry.



So what's your point? They don't handle the problems they do because of their POWER levels, unless you're trying to say the Fantastic Four are more powerful than the Avengers. It has to do with what their cause is. X-men handle mutant problems because that's their CAUSE. That says absolutely nothing about whether or not they should be super-powerful. Avenger's handle global problems because that's their stated cause - to protect Earth. That says absolutely nothing about how powerful they are or should be. Fantastic Four handle cosmic problems because they're a family and a team of adventurers - space has always been their frontier.

The X-men are more than capable of filling that role if need be. They've had several cosmic adventures against the likes of the Brood, the Shi'Ar, The Phalanx, Skrulls, The Stranger, Celestials and other universal threats and have done JUST FINE. Not a single flaming guy or rocky dude in sight...

can we get back on point that storm can beat torch

The "point" (topic you mean) is Torch Vs Storm. I believe Torch would win.

-AC

Hahaha The Brood and Shiar Vs Galactus, Annihilus, Skrull/Kree empire, The Stranger, The Celestials.

Let's not get into who fights the worse enemies.

"The whole point of that example was to show a fire extinguisher taking out Torch. And there are others."

Stupid though, nothing you can say can change it. No element on Earth can generate enough water to put out the intensity Torch is capable of, much less a fire extinguisher.

-AC