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I think the idea of midichlorians is sweet, because it shows just how much knowledge the Jedi have before the Sith destroy them. Besides, there are still some mysteries involved.

OK I am basically lazy, so I'm going to copy my other reply and add to it.

I think maybe the reason you are having such a hard time with these is because you are viewing them with a critics eye. But to each his own. I will tell you what it is exactly that endears me to the prequels. Or as Ush would say I'm going to wax nostalgic. Back in 77 when A New Hope came out it was simply put awesome. When you saw that star destroyer come roaring across the screen and blocking everything else out for ME I was instantly transported into the story. And believe it or not the OT has it's share of bad acting and bad dialog and cheesiness. But that's the way GL intended it to be. The entire sage is patterned after his Sat afternoon movie experiences with Flash Gordon etc. This movie isn't supposed to win Oscars. It is supposed to entertain you. Hell my kids saw the OT growing up and they love the PT as well. Probably for the same reason that I do. It's an adventure. I want to know the back-story. I want to know where Vader came from. Who cares if the dialog blows or the acting is less than Oscar worthy? FOR ME this movie still takes me back. Still draws me in. And thats a good thing because here I am 27 freaking years later waiting on the edge of my seat to see then end of the saga. Those are my reasons. I can understand your reasons, but please try and understand the reasons of someone who's been caught up in the magic of this story not the technical details. smile No one can disprove you from your opinion because it IS your opinion.

I realise that the dialog between Anakin and Padme is silly, but these are supposed to be young adults. Very few people of that age can wax poetic about feelings of love. And I can honestly say when I was that young I'd have killed to have a guy talk to me that way personally. I do agree that the use of CGI has gotten out of hand. But it doesn't make me hate the movies. I hated Jar Jar but loved TPM because Maul was just so damn good as a villain in my opinion. See it all comes back to being entertained. And I was. I cant sit through a movie and pick it to pieces. Thats not my job, and I don't want it to be. DO you know that until like 2 months ago I had no idea that ET was in TPM? And I was OK not knowing about it.



On a side note I'm curious to know what you thought of the SE's?

I was entertained... but not overwhelmed, impressed or swept off my feet. The films are okay, but no way as good as ANH and ESB. The storylines are dodgy, I have a feeling george is trying to tell too much in a short time span and a lot looks quite fakey. There are more cringe moments than in the OT, about major plot points the audience is kept unwisely in the dark and some crucial story elements are terrible (such as the love story between Anakin and Padme in AOTC). Lucas always hammered on the fact that special effects only served to support the story, not the other way around. The PT so far gives me the feeling the effects are more important. So yes, it is SW, it is entertaining but it's not way as good as the OT. And I find that a shame. With the OT George felt extremely constricted by the technological or budgettary restrictions (same on THX 1138), now I've come to the point that it was BECAUSE of these restrictions taht George made such excellent films then. Now, when there are no mentionable restrictions, with a sure profit awaiting him, he's not able to make better films than the OT.

Queeq, you've hit the nail on the head. I've always wondered myself how Lucas could do such a great job when he was struggling but fall short when he has so much talent and technology at his disposal and yes, it is a real shame. Perhaps i expected too much, i don't think i did though because there are other movies out there that have met and exceeded my expectations.

As for cheesy moments, i admit the OT has its fair share but, for me, theres a big difference. See, the OT was pulp sci-fi/space opera; it never aspired to be more than what it was and in that sense George created a series that payed homage to the old Flash Gordon shorts as he intended. The Prequels on the other hand take themselves far too seriously and coupled with the cheesey dialogue it becomes painful to watch. I swear, i honestly get a migraine from scrunching my face up during the lake scene in EP2. I honestly belive that had George given the directors chair to someone else we'd have had movies 100 times better than what we have now. ESB is my favourite SW movie; can you imagine a Kershner directed EP3?? That would be sweet.

To answer JP's question, i like the SE's although i'm not keen on some of the 'enhancements'. For the most part though, i enjoy them, they are after all the original movies i grew up watching. It just saddens me that we'll never get the original cut and i find it a tad disrespectful that George has cut names from the credits. My only concern is that come 2006 we'll see more 'enhancements', ie. more CGI and prequel tie ins. As i said before i love CG, think its an amazing tool, but the new trilogy suffers for it and i would really hate to see the classics fall victim to technology aswell. Imagination is key to a movie, you fill in the blanks yourself. Nowadays, we don't need to which is possibly why you hear things like 'they don't make make 'em like they used to' more and more.

Hope that answered your question.

Yep and it was a surprising answer. I hated the SE's. I had never even seen the SE's until they came out on DVD last month. All I have is the original OT on tape. I was shocked and thats when I was sickened. All I could think was, where is my Star Wars? The ONLY improvement Ive been able to see in the DVD's is that the color is beautiful.

imagine something in your head. a place perhaps. imagine its depth, its scope, its sheer beauty. imagine how such a place is populated. now take a minute amount of money and try and create what you see in your head. your end result is something painfully far from your vision, but for the most part it serves a purpose. shame really. such wonder is created in you head and no one will ever see it because you simply don't have the resources and tools to create it. you don't have the ability to bring to people in reality, what you see in your minds eye.

now imagine you suddenly are provided with all that you could require to finish that vision perfectly. would you leave alone you half hearted effort ? or would you go and fix it ?

the SE's should be looked upon as a more complete vision to that what was never possible at the time of creation. you cannot say that Tattooine in the SE is not effective in creating a bustling space port filled with towns people, visitors, space ports and craft. Or that the Hoth Wampa in SE ESB doesn't provide you with a more insightful look into the ferrocity of such a beast, compared to a hand coming across the screen and a close up of a 'rrraarrrr'.

However, i don't agree with change for change sake and introducing scenes that provide no continuity or reason. jabba in ANH and greedo etc etc.

I honestly wouldn't want to watch the OT anymore as they were. uncomplete light sabre effects, 'use your imagination' sets and crappy explosions.

Like i said, some enhancements are for the better but some are just there for the sake of including them. The musical piece in ROTJ being a prime candidate for the cutting room floor should i ever be given madate to edit these films. Not that i ever would, but u get my point.

Where the SE shines is in the removal of matte lines from the sequences using models. I am happy to see the space battle in ANH get a revamp but that it. I dont want to see anymore.

p.s

as for the EP1 and EP2. i still stick with what i said before. CGI is a tool to enhance effects and areas of a movie which generally can't be completed in reality. as Supervisor of special effects at ILM John Knoll said in the EP2 documentary "from puppets to pixels" - there are things that you can't do in reality and which you use CGI, and then there are those things that you can do, and there for dont use CGI for".

well, is GL saying that the massive life scale models and sets he created on minimal budget in the OT cannot be created in real life now. in the documentary on the dvd in EP1 you can see him in a meeting with ILM trying to shave money off the sfx shots with jar jar scenes. however, to much relience on those 'easier to shoot scenes' has left his movies with a feeling of imcompleteness. i would much rather see maul obi and qui gon fight in a massive real set with real light bouncing rather than them fighting on blue screen with missmatched artificial light sourcing to 'place' them in the scene.

for me, the over reliance on such sfx has really spoilt it for me. as well as the acting, directing, scripting................................

I think thats what made it so cool! I dont know, maybe my problem is I have been watching them the same way for over 25 years now. I am resistant to change.

Star Wars is perhaps my earliest movie memory along with Indiana Jones. As far as the OT goes, i couldn't hazzard a guess as to how many times i've watched them but lets just say lots.

I don't mind tweaks but i hate the idea of completely new additions like they are supposedly planning for 2006/2007. That to me would be sacriledge.

Ah but see to me the SE's were sacrilege.

I have no real objections to CGI or to the SE's myself. It's actually only ANH that needed some major touch upsto make it stick in the series. Otherwise this great film would have strangely stuck out like a sore thumb. ESB and ROTJ could have been left untouched to me.

As for CGI, they ARE a great tool to create what's not possible in real life. Many many films have profited from it's possibilities and will do so in the future. However, I think in many cases it's not up to scratch to go for reality and yet many filmmakers rely on it, sometimes for too many things. I think the PT suffers from that. I find it odd that someone like Spielberg (George's close friend) uses it much more precise and somewhat restricted. His cinematographical design of a movie goes before everything and CGI technology will have to adapt to his standards. With SW there is a world that needs to be designed, developed and created WITHIN the digital atmosphere. Maybe it's just very hard to do that without any reference anymore. Just shoot the lot in a bluescreen studio, a few exteriors and some plates and start cutting and pasting stuff in the digital environment. If something doesn't turn out right, they reshoot to make it fit.

As a documentary filmmaker myself that way on non-linear filmmaking has its charms. There are always things you wished you'd done differently in editing. But the other side of the story is, that limitations challenge me to find solutions during the shoot, in situ. I rarely have a change to shoot some additional footage. The restrictions make one creative and also help you figure out how to prepare things for next time, to do them better or different. It helps me evolve. And then when I look at SW now... with all that non-lineair filmmaking in EVERY stage... why, oh why don't these films turn out well.

My major annoyance with ILM was when the Hulk came out. I wondered: why on earth is an esteemed company like ILM not able to make the Hulk look near as good as the Gollum made a couple of enthusiast New Zealand hicks at Weta... I applaude the people at Weta, who came,(irony oh irony) to ILM to see how it's done. "The Circle is now complete, when I left you I was but the learner, now I am the master."

See, I think that the originals' success was based on the characters, and on the adherence to Joseph' Campbell's hero with a thousand faces.

1. The characters were just more vibrant

2. Lucas tried very hard to continue to adhere to campbell's principles for the prequels, almost too much so, to the point that people immediately connoted anakin with Jesus or King Arthur. This blatant attempt at reproducing his former glory wasn't him losing his knack so much as him trying too much to use the premise that helped his original succeed. More definitely isn't more in this case.

Queeq, Spielberg is a great example of a director. While he and Lucas may be friends Lucas isn't fit to call himself a director in the same calibre as Spielberg.

Look at their careers; Spielberg has 35 movies for cinema under his belt as opposed to Lucas' 7, which incidentally INCLUDES ep3. With such a pitiful repertoire, it's clear why the prequels aren't up to scratch but attitude also plays an important role.

To quote Spielberg :- "I always like to think of the audience when I am directing. Because I am the audience"

To quote Lucas :- "Right or wrong this is my movie, this is my decision, and this is my creative vision, and if people don't like it, they don't have to see it."

Technically correct but if thats how George feels, why bother to make a movie in the first place? If he's making it for himself, why should we be expected to love these films just because they have Star Wars in the title? It's enough to make you wonder if these films are lacking simply because the man couldn't care less; he knows they'll make money.

Credit where credit is due, Lucas has some great ideas and his writing resume is impressive. But really, the man should just stick to thinking the ideas up and leave the movie magic to people who really care for their chosen art-form.

Tpaquin, George didn't really have a knack to loose. From the OT only ANH was directed by Lucas. Sure he wrote the 3 movies but he also relied heavily upon other writing staff to change a good deal of his dialogue and turn his rough draft into a useable script. In that sense, it was always suicide for him to exclusively write and direct the prequels but i guess over the years the Ego has inflated somewhat; so much so that he is totally impervious to criticism.

As for the Jesus connotation you are dead on. IMO The immaculate conception of Annakin was a bad writing decision. Annakins origins could have been written in a more original manner while still leaving the mystical enigma intact.

I thought Lucas had 12... Star Wars I-VI, American Graffiti, THX-1138, and the Indiana Jones Trilogy, plus the fourth Indy movie that's in production.

No, I'm talking directorial roles. He only wrote Indiana Jones, ESB and ROTJ. The directors chair went to other people notably Spielberg for Indy, his oid teacher Irvin Kershner for ESB and Richard Marquand for ROTJ. He has been attatched as producer to a number of films though but thats a different kettle of fish. Infact, now i've double checked, my figure of 7 movies as director is wrong. It's only 6

They are

THX-1138
AMERICAN GRAFFITI
STAR WARS - ANH
STAR WARS - TPM
STAR WARS - AOTC
STAR WARS - ROTS

Mind, he must have garnered a whole load of experience directing a Paula Abdul video, it really shows in his new stuff

5 years later i still dont know if i liked Episode1 or not......which is a good thing as its better than just disliking it point blank i suppose.

Well, THX, American Graffiti and ANH are well made films. I don't understand it really...

If i'm not mistaken, American Graffiti is still the most profitable film ever made; recouping $50 for every $1 spent on production. Which is i suppose something to be proud of.

Yes it's a mystery how he could make 3 great films and then produce turds. I think he's bought into his own legend a little too much. If you read some books about his early work he wasn't afraid to give his actors a little licence with his characters but nowadays after reading some stories from the production of the prequels, (and hearing a tale direct; a friend of mine was an extra in Tunisia when they were filming AOTC), Georges direction has one command, "my way or the highway".

And even quantity is no criterium for a filmmaker. Terence Malick only made three in almost 30 years. Kubrick made nowhere near as many films as Spielberg, and yet they are all considered great filmmakers, just like George until he made TPM... (or Howard the Duck for that matter ).

Howard the Duck...now he just HAS to admit that was a stinker.

I even think he does.

You see, I like the prequels better then the OT. (My opinion of course.)

I agree with Sith; I like the PT more. That's not to say I don't love the OT films because I do, I think they're incredible.
There are just different things in the PT that appeal to me. I, like JP, love the idea of being told the back story and meeting all these characters we'd only heard briefly about. I know that some of the acting is horrible and the directing isn't the best and sometimes the CGI stuff features a little too strongly but that doesn't make me cringe when I watch the films. I love them.
My points aren't stong enough to be valid really because I don't have single reasons on why these films mean so much to me. They just do.

I can't understand why anyone could prefer the prequels over the OT.

The OT are timeless classics.

Where are the catchphrases apart from the re-hashed ones)? Where are the plot twists? Where's the brilliant subtelty in the designs of the ships and universe? Where's the inter-weaving, deep, intriguing and yet completely comprehensive plot? Where's the charming banter between characters? Why are the Expanded Universe books better?

"Sandstorms are very, very dangerous"

Find me one line in the OT thats anywhere near as cack as that one.

The OT have become cinematic legends; i don't see that being the case for the prequels. All i see is a very clever marketing ploy.

Actually, there is "wipe them out, all of them", which i'll admit is pretty cool. But that's IT! They even used it in the trailers, so it's hardly along the lines of "I am your father". There are no DEFINING lines that add an "oomph" to the story.

No dialogue seems to have any impact. It's just exposition (in a Star Wars movie of all things - midichlorians, Sith Lord explantions etc etc and in ROTS we'll have exposition about the ghosts) and really rubbish dialogue.

And why is it always the Emperor that has to save the day with his catchphrases?

By the end of ROTS we'll have "Wipe them out" and "Lord Vader......riiise". Which are pretty cool, but it's a shame when Obi-Wan and Yoda are reduced to spitting out old catchphrases in an almost caracatured manner, ESPECIALLY Yoda.

I mostly blame the crappy scripts ("I truly deeply, love you" - blurgh!), the reliance on CGI to tell the story, and the wasted potential in the brilliant actors that are cast.

Revenge Of The Sith looks brilliant, but it's still a good 1/3 of a Trilogy that's mostly suck-ass.

Well, do remember that he's only 10 years old. It's likely he'd say something like that. But yes, that was a bad line in general, I'll admit.

Did you ever see him in Jingle All the Way ? Not a great film, but his acting stands out by far in comparison to TPM. And tahtw as even shot BEFORE TPM... So the boy can do it...

I only like the prequels cause Ewan McGregor is in them----

and I suppose each prequel that comes out I keep hoping it will be SUPER- AOTC was way way better than P. Menace - Hayden Christensen did a good job at whinning and showing good emotion..

Actually, it was Jingle All The Way that made me set such LOW expectations.

I heard Haley Joel Osment was being considerred, and I had my hopes up that he would play Anakin instead, he would have been amazing.

I have to be honest. The ONLY reason I watched Jingle All The way was for Phil Hartman. until you guys said that I had no idea Jake Llyod was even IN that movie.

i dont love the prequeals but i dont hate them either....i liked AOTC the story was better than TPM and so was the acting but didnt like TPM darth maul kicked ass but the story sucked ass....but if your asking me to compare the prequeals to OT i cant..there is no comparison...OT takes the cake but ROTS has the potential to turn the corner for the prequals but it would have to be just as good as ESB and thats asking alot

"around the survivors, a perimeter, create". class.

Hey, it wasn't super but a lot better than TPM. He was allright in the small part he had. It made me seriously doubt GL's directing capacities when it comes to actors. Or children at least.

As for Osmond... hmmm.... young Anakin with droopy eyes... I dunno.

I'd forgotten about that one. Strike the sandstorms line from the number one spot. We have a new champion.

Anyway, back on track. I don't think that TPM would have been any better with HJO as Annakin instead of Jake Lloyd. Like i've said before i think the big issue lies with George Lucas' inability to inspire and direct his cast properly. Can you honestly look at the other actors in the prequels and tell me, truthfully, that they are giving top rate perfomaces?

Here's an artists rendition of Haley Joel Osment as Annakin

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v385/SpiegelSays/hjo_as_annakin.jpg

Thats a great reason to like them but at the same time a contributing factor as to why a good deal of people dislike them. Being a huge fan of the original trilogy, my expectations were much higher than Lucas was capable of delivering. I think thats partly to do with the fact that i, along with however many millions of other fans, had 20+ years to envision our own version of the history of Annakin/Vader; theres nothing more powerful than imaginaton after all so George had some pretty stiff competition in that respect.



The point you made was more than valid

Don't get me wrong guys and girls, I like the PT.

I bash Eps I and II a lot on these boards, but I still watch them. For instance, I own Attack of The Clones on DVD, yet I still sit and watch Attack Of The Clones when it is shown on sky movies.

Each movie had some truly brilliant Star Wars moments. The duel and the Pod Race in Episode 1 were brilliant, and I love the Tatooine scenes in Attack Of The Clones. The Lars homestead and Tusken slaughter scenes make that movie worth watching, despite the crap elsewhere.

I bash them because they have brilliant ideas, and ALMOST, just almost, get it spot on sometimes, and then they go and ruin it by having stupid scenes, bad lines and too much CGI taking focus away.

and yeah, good one: "around the survivors, a perimeter, create" has to be the worst line of the prequels so far.

That line single handedly turned prequel Yoda into a caracature of himself. That's the sort of thing WE'D say if we were 'doing' Yoda as a joke. It's over-Yoda-ised.

Yoda didn't talk bcakwards so severely in the OT, it was much more subtle. That says it all really - the subtelty has been removed completly from these movies. They are so in-your-face and TRYING TOO HARD to impress, that it just falls flat on it's face.

And because of the fact Revenge Of The Sith looks to be an action packed CGI fest (albeit with a killer story and all), I doubt it's gonna top Empire Strikes Back, although it MAY come close. I hope I'm pleasantly surprised.

I think Episode 3 has potential to be the best of the 6, but instead of worrying about how the new ones suck, just think about how they progressively get better. the Prequel trilogy will never be as good as the OT, but they are wonderful set ups.

I liked the novel of AOTC. It really made me want to se the film. But that was actually a bit of a disappointment. It seemed they took a bit of bite out of the story, maybe due to quantity of story.... I dunno.

yeah queeq. i was so excited to see the fight betwqeen the home dwellers and the tusken raiders. what with the legs getting cut off and all, but i was dissappointed when they didnt have it. i loved the book way more than the movie even though it too was good.

Hate is a strong word...although greatly dislike would probably cover it. I think it is almost unanimous (I stress almost) even amonsgst those that like the prequels that they have overdosed on CGi to the point of being nausiating in parts. In my view this has ironically undone the very thing that the CGi stuff was meant to do. i.e...bring greater realism to these movies. For the most part much of it feels so fake. Its kinda laughable in a way that when I watch eps 4, 5 & 6 its like a breath of fresh air to see some "real" spaceships on the screen.

That asside... I wouldnt mind the CGi so much if the cartoonish antics of jar jar in the battlescenes hadent made it feel like a pixar toystory style adventure. Some of the other CGi creatures, like that flying character with the little wings (bad physics there...that would never have been able to fly) hadent added to my general annoyance. OK..I'm being picky..but all these things detract from the overall enjoyment of an overly politcal, po-faced, oh-so-serious couple of movies that dont have the same simple spirit of the original movies. George...really..you dont have to explain every damn thing! Sure..put it in the novels..but dont bore us to death on screen with it.

Also...we need characters we care about. Honestly..I simply didnt care who lived and who died in the new movies. Not a single one..well except maybe the droids.

AOTC..have sooo tried to like this film...but the last 2 times I have watched it I've fallen asleep both times half way through. I've only seen the last half of the movie once..and that was in the cinema. Anyway..what was yoda doing giving working light sabres to 5 and 6 year olds in training??? They were all standing so close together and had helmets with blast shields down too! Jeeez!!

The head switching scene with C3pios head..yes funny...but again..very toy-story ish and out of place here. I could go on..but I'm tired...bottom line... George.. talk about missed opportunities.... my fingers and toes are crosssed for episode 3

kalsolar, I agree on everything you said.

The OT, in it's old-ness, never ceases to amaze me in that everytime I watch it, it is STILL refreshing.

The PT is po-faced and overly political. The brilliance of the OT was the simplicity of the screen play with a fantastic deep story going on in the background.

The OT's main concern was it's characters, how they interact and the trouble they endure, and in the background was all this amazing galactic battle. Lucas said it himself, he focussed the movies on the two droids, who have an almost tunnel-vision-esque take on the grand epic battle around them. The story was easy to stomach, despite it's deep nature, because the audience unravelled the plot along with the heroes. We saw the story from their perspective.

The PT is the same, but in reverse. There's all this big intergalactic battle, with special effects being thrown in our face, that the character devlopment and plot gets lost in the distance and we are left trying desperately to find them amidst the contrivances. We see the story from an "onlookers" perspective. We can see this character interaction going on, but the whole screenplay is done on a bigger scale. We never feel "on board" with the story because its very hard to latch on to a character and let them take us on a ride.

It has a lot to do with the fact the OT had better flow. The timescale was perfect and didnt stop and judder like the PT does. That's how we managed to latch on to the characters and take in everything about the comprehensive world of the OT. The PT is contrived silliness, and half the exposition and, to be honest, bulls**t could be removed and make the experience more enjoyable.

well..It's been a while since I could bring myself to watch either of the prequels from beggining to end, but after giving them a little bashing on here recently I decided to watch AOTC today to see if my opinion has changed any. I did manage to get all the way through it this time... however...I do feel ill now, I need to lie down

When I have more time,I'll post my reasons for them,but right now since I am pressed for time,I will just say I hate the star wars prequels and that it was a HORRIBLE idea of George Lucas's to make them.However,I dont think they are as bad as Return of the jedi.My least favorite star wars film.The only star wars films I like are A NEW HOPE AND EMPIRE STRIKES BACK.

I have loved every Episode. My least favorite is ANH, but I still love it.

the SE's should be looked upon as a more complete vision to that what was never possible at the time of creation. you cannot say that Tattooine in the SE is not effective in creating a bustling space port filled with towns people, visitors, space ports and craft. Or that the Hoth Wampa in SE ESB doesn't provide you with a more insightful look into the ferrocity of such a beast, compared to a hand coming across the screen and a close up of a 'rrraarrrr'.

You know, less is more. When I first saw Mos Eisley back in '77, I BELIEVED it was a busy little town. I BELIEVED it! I didn't need more to believe. It worked! It worked the first time! There really was no need to change it.
As for the Wampa. Less is more. I like movies where you don't see the monster, it's only hinted at. I'm only disappointed when they actually show it, and it's laughable. Also, I'm little struck by how gorey that scene is. I'm not opposed to gore, I guess, but it seemed so out-of-place. It seemed over-the-top. Especially in light of Lucas "sanitizing" the stormtroopers getting blasted in the cell block scene. He won't show people getting shot by blasters, but he'll show a monster gnoshing on a tauntaun leg? Ar-unh? Also, this added footage really, badly, altered William's musical score. The whole scene is awkward now.

Annakins origins could have been written in a more original manner while still leaving the mystical enigma intact.
You're dead right. Lucas should've stuck with his original idea of a family of Skywalkers who not only were the discoverers of the Force, but also were instrumental in the formation of the Galactic Republic. Lucas really blew it here for someone so interested in the commercialization of his films. With a whole legacy of Skywalkers, he would have comic books, books, animation, et. al. for years to come!!! The 'immaculate conception' just killed all that. How ironic. (Of course, the answer to this, is that Lucas did this on purpose so that Anakin wouldn't have a dad, and then fans would clamber and cry for a pre-prequel; you know, all Lucas would have to say is "read EU" for all that.)

Sure he wrote the 3 movies but he also relied heavily upon other writing staff to change a good deal of his dialogue and turn his rough draft into a useable script. In that sense, it was always suicide for him to exclusively write and direct the prequels but i guess over the years the Ego has inflated somewhat; so much so that he is totally impervious to criticism

Yeah, I just can't understand why he didn't get a writing committee, a better writer than somebody who wrote for a failed television series. Also, Lucas didn't really "write" for ESB or ROTJ. He threw out concepts and ideas, themes and characters, and a general plot, and the writers put it all together for him.

Well, THX, American Graffiti and ANH are well made films. I don't understand it really...

Oh, it's easy to understand. Doesn't direct or "write" for how many years? Keeps himself insular? Jaded by divorce and failed projects (Willow, Howard the Duck, etc.), jaded by his personal life (unable to produce kids of his own, had to adopt, had to be a single parent). The prequels are products of his out-of-touch demeanor. He had an 'in' an understand in the early years, but now it's not working anymore.

There are just different things in the PT that appeal to me. I, like JP, love the idea of being told the back story and meeting all these characters we'd only heard briefly about. I know that some of the acting is horrible and the directing isn't the best and sometimes the CGI stuff features a little too strongly but that doesn't make me cringe when I watch the films. I love them.

I can't believe you like them after saying all that. Nowadays, films are held to higher standards. Especially Star Wars!! It had quite a precedence, and the prequels should meet that, at the very least, but it should've exceeded it!

As for the CGI. I can be forgiving of CGI... if the STORY IS GOOD! That's where we fail.

I've always wanted to see the Fall of the Republic, the fall of Anakin Skywalker, Jedi mixing it up, even Yoda sitting in his chair in all his wisdom. I really tried to be open-minded about TPM. I had heard about Jar Jar before hand, and tried to ignore it. I honestly, I really tried to put aside all of my preconceptions and expectations. I was actually excited to see it when I went to the theatre, and then, as soon as that scroll... that awful, awful, boring scroll came on the screen, I knew something was wrong, but I swallowed that thought, and continued to watch, and it kept going downhill. It only got good during the pod-race scene, but then I realized it was utterly pointless. We knew... we just KNEW that Anakin would win. So what? What was the big deal? It is a technically beautiful scene in many respects, but it's all noise, signifying nothing, and is a big stumbling block in the entire film.

There are too many things in this film which make NOT work as a Star Wars film. I think if it had NOT been a Star Wars film, a rip-off film, unrelated to Star Wars, I might be okay with it as a film of its own.

The title alone to this film is bad enough. It sounds like "Dennis" should be interjected in the title somewhere.

Anakin is too young. His relationship with Padme is too creepy. Padme tells Anakin, "my caring for you will never end," he gives her a jippor snippet (whatever the hell that is---which doesn't even make a reappearance in AOTC), but later on this movie when Anakin is blasting off in the Naboo Starfighter, she isn't even a bit concerned. Yeah, looks like you really care about him, sweetheart.

Making Anakin a slave is pointless. It really serves no point later on. It's a completely throwaway concept.

There's bad editing. In the scene where Anakin and Qui-Gon are leaving the city, and then the next they're RUNNING!! Running from what? They're just running for no reason. What, they're gonna miss the bus? And, don't tell me about the "DVD's deleted scene" I've seen it, and there was no reason for Qui-Gon to be suspiscious of that robot, but the big, most important thing---it wasn't in the theatrical release!! Where it would've been more important to have that scene.

Jar Jar.... oh, you should figure that I absolutely can't stand him. His character could've been easily written out. I know people will say, "but he brought the Jedi to Gungan City," and I say to that, the Jedi found their way to Theed on their own (some navigator Jar Jar was; not once did he give them directions, just blathered on about fish and being clumsy), they could've found their way to Gungan City.

How did the Gungans transport their kaadus' and other monsters from the city to the surface? Does everyone have to swim down there? I think Boss Nass' nice dress would've dragged him to the bottom of the pond...er... I mean ocean.

Darth Maul was a waste. The duel between him and the Jedi was admittedly cool, but lacked emotion and purpose. The Force fields were like something out of a video game. Anakin's atrocious "whoops" "yippees" and "oops" are just beyond reproach. Him proving himself to be a "great star pilot" by accidently blowing up the Trade Federation ship is such utter poppycock.

Need I go on?

I only liked the second one and hopfully I wil llike the third one but the first one sucked big time.I was very disapointed in it.JM

Hmm..I guess I'll fall into the 'love 'em' category. The PT greatly changes Star Wars, and I'm not as attached to the OT as some of you here, so I guess that goes a long way to liking/accepting the PT. When I first saw the OT like nine years ago, I remember only liking the effects and the battles and thinking that the rest of it was crap. I thought the acting and dialogue, especially, were childish and dumb. (And those are the same complaints people level at the PT nowadays.) Eventually, I began to really love the OT, and every single aspect of it, down to the dialogue. When the PT came along, I never had any problems with the it, except for Jar-Jar, which I think is a concept that missed its mark. But I it amazes me how people could criticise certain aspects of the PT so harshly when the OT is riddled with it.

Anyway, I guess I can see why the PT is less popular. It's very different from the OT in terms of story structure. There is no archetypal hero for the audience to identify with...for instance Luke and Han are archetypal heroes..reminiscent of society's ideal of a hero. Anakin is the PT's hero, but he's a fully mythological character..I admit he is difficult to identify with. I do think that he's a fascinating character though, and he makes Luke look boring *ducks behind computer* ..But I just love the atmosphere of the PT..it's a grey area..the heroes are questionable, the true villians are hidden..it's not an outright good versus evil scenario like the OT. It's more political, and less swashbuckling/action. The thing is, I don't see this as poor story. It's just different to the OT. Even GL said that the PT wouldn't be as popular as the OT before TPM came.

I do think that being very attached to the OT and using that as a definitive version of how Star Wars should be - is the reason that some fans hate the PT. Also, since the OT has been around for so long, people look at it nostalgically..and see it as a part of their childhood and not a film with flaws. I mean, it's the same thing with me and LOTR..I'm attached to the books, and see them as definitive. Which is why I sometimes want to gag when I see the changes made in the film version. That does not, however mean that the LOTR films are bad - far from it. It's just that they carry the baggage of the books. With the Prequels, those films carry the unwieldly baggage of the 'Holy Trilogy'. No wonder it's so hard for them to stand alone or be accepted.

Actually, I know too well about the OT's flaws - doesn't make me like them any less.

The flaws in the OT can be forgiven because the magic is there.

The flaws in the PT cannot because they have so far been a souless pile of dung.

And how Is Anakin any different to Luke? How does Anakin make Luke look boring? They are mirrored characters. They are practically the same character, everyone knows this. Only difference is, that Luke didn't give in to the dark side, while Anakin did. They are similar characters because it's a way of showing how Luke could have become had he given in to hate. It's probably the only function that these prequels actually serve.

The PT could have EASILY been accepted if they were just LIKE the Originals in some form.

The fact that the two trilogies LOOK so different for a start is a major mistake. Lucas can come up with any excuse he likes but as a narrator, changing the visual style is a massive mistake. Star Wars fans were used to a CONTINUITY with the older films, and the PT takes that continuity and wipes its arse with it. Another reason is because the PT has retrospectively re-written some of the Star Wars "laws" such as The Force and introducing absolutely pointless characters like Qui-Gonn Jinn when they should have been focussing on Obi-Wan and Anakins relationship.

People say there's too much CGI. I tend to agree, but I also think it's down to the designers being Star Trek geeks who have never truly understood the visual aspect of the Star Wars films. Sleek, clean designs litter the PT - that's not Star Wars designs, thats Star Trek Anime n00b kids designs!
There are LOADS of reasons why people dislike the PT.

You gotta wonder what George was thinking when he wrote some of the dialogue n you gotta wonder what the cast n crew were thinking when they read it, how could nobody go into production without questioning it or thinking "I can't say this, what an awful line"?!

It wasn't as much what the character's dialogue in the prequels that was bad it was the characters themselves.
In the originals they behaved and felt like real people that we grew to like and care about, even Darth Vader. Han Solo is in my opinion the coolest character written, developed and acted in all of Star Wars.

We could nitpick all day about the several flaws n plotholes in all 3 films, but this was the MAJOR problem with the prequels:
I didn't like or care about any of the characters!!
Palpatine the slight exception, only cause of how wonderfully evil he was in Revenge of the sith.
But the rest of them just felt like sterile robots with no sense of humour, common sense or ability to feel or connect with each other. Felt as fake as alot of the CGI backgrounds.

The reason people couldn't question anything is because Lucas owned his own company, as well as Star Wars. Technically they could question him, but they were too afraid to.

Even though Fox distributed the films, Lucas made a deal with them several years ago which practically gave him the rights to everything. That being said, the entire company worked "for George."

Think about it. Who appointed Lucas to direct the prequels? He appointed himself, because he could. He owned the company and the franchise.

Lucas seems like a nice guy, but, I think a lot of people were intimated by him because he wasn't just the writer and director, but also the guy that was practically employing everyone.

If I were employed by someone like Lord Sugar, a self made billionaire, I too probably wouldn't feel comfortable questioning his decisions.

Quite right, and in case of Lord Sugar, the bottom line is: did you make him money?

In case of Star Wars in a way the same question applies, although... by doing SW you KNOW you're gonna makes tons of money. The other question then is: are we making a good movie? And obviously, he didn't.

I wonder though what Claude or Margaret would say if Lord Sugar wasted a couple of million pounds on a business deal he desperately wanted... One to think about...

I'd like to emphasis my point about the characters in the prequels:
A bit like Red letter media did, yes, but let's hone in on the point.

I'll describe these characters without saying who acted them, what they looked like or what their role in the films were:
Prequels and originals:

Lando Calrission: A cool dude, charming, underneath means well, and wants to defeat evil, and shows determination to do good after turning Han over to Vader.

Mace Windu: hmmm monotone hmmm reserved

Princess Leia: a girl determined to defeat the empire, takes no shit from others, doesn't allow herself to be looked down on, never gives up her cause and what she stands for, there for those she cares about.

Padme Amidala: hmmm monotone, gets wooed by creepy men, a plot convenience

Grand Moff Tarkin: believes in Imperial domination, persistant, a stop at nothing, ruthless, no nonsense man.

Count Dooku: hmm arrogant...dull hmmm hmmmm

The interesting thing about Lucas is that he never set out to be a filmmaker. His passion was art, and when he ventured off to school he thought he was taking an art class when it turned out to be a class on cinematography. Got lucky there.

It can be debated all day long whether or not he ruined Star Wars by using too much green/blue screen technology, although if you think about Lucas' original passion for art, then the pieces of the puzzle kind of fit.

By using this technology, then much like a painting, your imagination is the limit since anything can be crafted out of it. I'm not saying this is right by any means, but simply that I can identify with what Lucas was going for. He is, and always was a visual story teller. The OT is certainly the more "human" and character driven trilogy, but I think the pedestal it gets placed on sometimes is a little overboard.

Is the OT really a "great trilogy" or a trilogy that started off good in the beginning, got better in the middle, but under-delivered in the end?

Is Return of the Jedi really a good movie? As a stand alone piece, sure it is. Compared to ANH is ESB....is it a letdown? I think so.......

Call me crazy, but there's a few PT films I would take any day over ROTJ.

Did Lucas really fail with the PT? The fact that legions of us still continue to talk about these movies 14 years later proves otherwise in my opinion.

Originally posted by queeq
I wonder though what Claude or Margaret would say if Lord Sugar wasted a couple of million pounds on a business deal he desperately wanted... One to think about...

Well the funny thing about that is sometimes things have a way of coming full circle down the road. One to think about also.....would Lucas have pocketed 4 billion dollars from Disney if he hadn't kept SW alive with the PT...something he funded with his own money? One can only wonder.

True. Now all that is missing is a good Blu Ray transfer of the OOT.

Originally posted by queeq
True. Now all that is missing is a good Blu Ray transfer of the OOT.

Original unaltered version on Blu-ray ,that would make my christmas

I'd like the last digitally remastered version of the OOT, the last VHS release. They cleaned up the OOT nicely on that one.

Have you ever thought that maybe then wooden acting and "soulless" feel of the films were done on purpose to counteract the original trilogy? I honestly like the feeling. They feel very artificial, which is exactly what the Republic represents. It's big, beautiful, complicated... but it has no heart behind it. Same with the Jedi Order. Contrast that with the originals: they are an organic, rag-tag trilogy which feature people striving for a deep purpose and meaning.

I dunno, I love all 6 movies and I like the contrast between the two trilogies.