Clonetrooper, Stormtrooper: Tomato, Tom-ah-to

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cornponious
You know what really gets my goat? It's all this "clonetrooper" nonesense. Come on, they're STORMTROOPERS! I don't care if they are clones, they are stormtroopers. We've called them stormtroopers since the 70's. All we know now is how they came to be. Ok, so they're clones, big deal! They are STILL stormtroopers.

Get over the clonetrooper thing. It sounds silly anyway.

cornponious

But then, so does "Count Dooku".

Barf Heaven
They're Clone Troopers, whether you like it or not. The Stormtroopers in the OT aren't all former Clone Troopers. That's actually what they're called, it's not just a bunch of teenagers messing around on the internet trying to confuse people.

Proof? Check out the SW Ep II Visual Dictionary.

Mr.Deflok
While we're at it, what's with this "Anakin Skywalker" nonsense? We all know his name is Darth Vader, Jesus Christ, get over it.

Darth Jello
lucas ruins surpises by confusing characters. in dvd commentaries he interchangably uses clone/storm troopers and also vader/anakin and palpatine/sidious. it's not fair to fans who haven't seen the imperial trilogy

yerssot
not fair? so what! the movies been out for more than 20 years. you should have seen them already stick out tongue

Baylin
yes

When I was little and the films were newly out sad I thought that they were called storm troopers because they had to stand out in the bad weather... confused





I do know better now though! big grin

cornponious
It doesn't matter. All stormtroopers are clones. Proof? Check out this link:

http://forums.starwars.com/thread.jsp?forum=18&thread=65998

Go to number 3. Never mind, i'll paste it:

George Lucas says in Starlog mag:"Boba had a connection to stormtroopers. I sort of built him out of the stormtroopers, and I knew stormstroopers were clones."

And this: "A magazine called The World of Star Wars: a Compendium of Fact and Fantasy from Star Wars and Empire Strikes Back (copyright 1981, with the official Lucasfilm Ltd. mark), had an article about stormtroopers as clones: "Origin. The creation of an Imperial Stormtrooper. A cloned man is one of a group of genetically identical humans, an assembly line product. He is a thinking man, but he serves a specific purpose and no other." A link to a scan of the article can be found here <http://cgi.theforce.net/theforce/image.cgi?Image=episode2/newspics/1981clones2.jpg>. This, in and of itself, is not clinching evidence (form your own conclusions), seeing as how it was published in 1981, but it is an official publication from Lucasfilm, and corresponds to a lot of what what we've seen in the movies."

And then this: "The clonetrooper/stormtrooper relationship has been confirmed. From the Databank:

"The titular clone troopers of Episode II were designed to strongly hint at their eventual evolution into the Empire's stormtrooper ranks."


The way I see it, if it looks like a stormtrooper, and it smells like a stormtrooper, it's probably a stormtrooper.


cornponious

Ushgarak
Thing is, 'Stormtrooper' (with its Nazi link) sounds rather evil by default, and with the fact that the name is evil in mind, GL almost certainly wants to reserve use of that name until the Empire itself is formed., The Clonetroopers are good guys after all, see? Clonetroopers good, stormtroopers bad, hence the distinction in name.

Darth Jello
would it be fair to say that the imperial scout aren't stormtroopers? They seem far too stupid and not organized enough to be genetically mutilated clones

bigsef3
"you're a little short for a storm trooper, arent you?" - storm troopers had a distinct height - ALL THE STORMTROOPERS ARE CLONES.

Ushgarak
Err, that does not prove much, many armed forces have a minimum height. Use ANH as an example and you have to ask why they have different voices.

One thing is clear- the officer classes in later times are not clones, unlike with the Clonetroopers.

yerssot
you know, MI5 recently made new guidelines, there agents can't be taller than 1m8 if I'm not mistaken
it can perfectly be the same with the clone troopers but than in ...shortness

bigsef3
why would you let a clone be an officer? essentially they are grunts, cannon fodder..... Its just like in real wars today. You have the elite go to officer training and you draft a bunch of expendable men to do the dirty work. GL will change the voices in the archival editions. All the stormtroopers will be clones.

bigsef3
yers and ush, i acknowledge that in the military there are height requirememnts, but all the storm troopers are THE SAME height. watch the movies, there is bareley a difference b/w any of them. GL was sending a message.

cornponious
Yet more proof that stormtroopers are clonetroopers:

from the starwars.com forum:

"Both clonetroopers and stormtroopers wear distinctive white armor. In The Art of Episode II, you can see that the clonetrooper armour design is a fusing of Jango Fett's armor and the stormtroopers' armor. There has never been an unmasked, unarmored stormtrooper seen in the movies before, so it is not certain what exactly they look like underneath. The Databank lists the stormtrooper as 1.83 m (hence Leia's comment to Luke in ANH: "Aren't you a little short for a stormtrooper?"wink. --->Note that Boba Fett's adult height, Jango Fett's height, and the height of the clonetroopers are all 1.83 m as well."<---

I think this issue is resolved. Stormtroopers and clonetroopers are one and the same.

cornponious

§pearhead
I was wondering...was the Republic's/Empire's orders of clones ever stopped? Because if thats the case, then some regular humans could be mingled with the clones, thus explaining the different voices and apparent imcompetence of the scouts.

yerssot
please, the visual dictionary and the sw.c databanks are for fun not to proof something

Ushgarak
I AGREE with you, Corn, I was just saying the height thing has nothing to do with it.

yerss, that is so, but GL's words on this appear to be clear.

eleveninches
Maybe the difference between clonetroopers and stormtroopers is who they are clones of.
If the first generation of clone troopers die either due to war casualties or old age (accellerated aging, remember), then maybe the stormtroopers/sandtroopers are the clones of somebody other than Jango.

It is ironic that the empire's strengh depends upon the stormtroopers, but yet when Jango is on board the star destroyer inn episode 5, one of the imperial officers says "Bounty hunters? we don't need that scum here." did he not know that clonetroopers were the clones of a bounty hunter??

eleveninches
/\ I meant that it was Bobba on the star destroyer, not Jango.
sorry

yerssot
seeing AOTC there is no clue given if they know, though it would be highly unlikely they don't know it's a clone, perhaps not who it's from since Jango wears a helmet

eleveninches
/\ I meant to say that it was Bobba on the star destroyer, not jango

yerssot
but since Boba is Jango's clone, it pretty much still stands wink

finti
yet that the same site has this info provided for Stormtroopers which kind of contradict that clonetrooper = stormtrooper info

"Stormtrooper training stressed complete indoctrination in the tenets of the New Order, and individuals would obey their officers without question, without regard to the rights of others or even to their own safety.
Stormtroopers abandoned individuality in exchange for their loyalty"

finti
The info on SW com aint all that canonical and cant be regarded as the "truth" of things. It is just extra info for the special interested, but a lot of the info there contradict each other as the example of the info on Clonetroopers /Stormtroopers

cornponious
Well, frankly, if you can't trust starwars.com, then who can you trust?
So I guess there's no point in arguing ANY point, because there will always be some other information out there that will disprove it, regardless of the source.

cc

finti
you can argue the point of the info provided by the movies and only the movies

yerssot
there's a sticky about that here somewhere ...

Ushgarak
Yup, have a look at the thread at the top of the page, Corn. SW.com has been unreliable on many occasions.

The reason that clonetroopers=stormtroopers is the generally accepted vibe right now is purely because of GL's comments on the matter. We shall see if the finished product of Episode III makes this more clear.

finti
I doubt that Ep III wil clear this matter though

yerssot
GL himself has proved to be unreliable too from time to time
(see the DVD-news or Ben hiding his identity which was a few days ago said by Pablo that will be explained)

finti
what about the Ben thing Yersie

Barf Heaven
Though the people themselves may be one and the same, that doesn't mean you can go around calling Clone Troopers Stormtroopers and vice versa--they are used for different purposes, they have different equipment, etc. As somebody else already said, Clone Trooper=good, Stormtrooper=bad.

Barf Heaven
Oh and I still don't believe that Clone Troopers and Stormtroopers are "one and the same". I have read the thing about Stormtroopers abandoning individuality in several different places already so I'm not going to believe what some guy on the sw.com forums says

yerssot
GL always said that we will never find out why OB1 changed his name to Ben or how he was able to become a ghost.
Pablo told the third of may (I think) that we WILL find out those two (actually, we know the first one already)

Ushgarak
Liek I say, nothing is certain until the film comes out.

But when GL said that we would never find that out, that was the fact. But he then changed his mind- something he can always do before the film comes out physically. However, with the common sense caveat that GL can change his mind being something that we should always apply, the fatc remains that all GL quotes on the subject indicate that the Stormtroopers are indeed clones, and so regardless of the possibly odd logic of that, that is kinda the default view for now.

Especially as GL has made such a quote far more recently, when talking of the creation of Jango Fett.

Darth Jello
ok, i have this theory about the storm trooper aim issue. according to the myth and magic book, storm troopers have a targeting computer inside their helmets. Since stormtroopers are highly trained, its logical to say that their targeting system is a network to insure coordinated attacks. would it be reasonable to say that the allaiance has set up several small, unnoticeable beacons across the galaxy that scramble that signal, making the troopers significantly less acurate but not useless?

finti
bad guys are always poor shots compare to the good guys

Mr.Deflok
If they had the ability to scramble their targeting systems surely they'd have the ability to hijack their entire system, throw an incredibly loud high pitch squeel into their audio devices and send them to sleep or death.

Darth Jello
visuals and audio aren't necesarily on the same frequancey or signal

yerssot
I don't get it, you want the bad guys to be great snipers or something? than the others won't stand a chance

Darth Zaratul
I remeber in Rouge Squadren 3 that there is a mission where the storm troopers come to tatooine asking for recruits, i dont remember much (been a while ago that i played it) but i do remeber somhing about recruiting troops

Red Superfly
Stormtroopers aren't all clones.

If they were all clones, they'd have had the blasphemous dubbing over that Boba recieved on the DVDs.

The fact that Boba now has Jango's voice (and ACCENT! WTF?) and the Stormtroopers do not, indicate that the Stormtroopers are something else.

Also, from watching the movies, I always assumed the clones are gradually killed off and replaced by human conscripts. The way The Clone Wars is fleetingly mentioned in A New Hope suggests the clones are part of a bygone era, and the fact clones are never mentioned again also suggests they are a thing of the past. By A New Hope, the Imperial Academy is in full swing and thats how new Stormtroopers are brought in - along with what Lucas said about officers getting preference for cloning.

I have always imagined that a really cool scene in a prequel would have been to have the Emperors statue being erected while thousands of young men are waiting in line by a building and walking out as Stormtroopers.

I am hoping for a scene like this in Ep III at least for the sake of ending this issue or adding some clarity to it.

((The_Anomaly))
in the old SW movies SOME of the stormtroopers are clones, while some of them are people trained at the imperial academy....

bilb
Damn!! How did this old thread get revived? laughing

Ushgarak
Sorry, RS, but GL has spoken definitvely on this. They ARE all Clones, just not all from the same template.

As ever, case closed.

Darth_Duffy
are you saying GL has confirmed that the storm troopers in the OT are indeed all original clones?

Ushgarak
'Original' I do not know exactly what you mean by. But all Clones- yes.

Darth_Duffy
I just mean they were originally known as clone troopers.
But i somehow missed the 'not all from the same template' line so i guess now it makes more sense.

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