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Well I think they are. If you seen what happened recently an American soldier gunned down an injured and unarmed Iraqi in front of his colleagues. Not any of them showed any remorse about it, no effort to stop or reprimand the soldier. Then you have the damning prison photos where the Americans humiliated the Iraqi POWs in a series of incidents which I need not describe. Then you have the frighteningly overzealous attitude towards this war, where you have audio on news reports of events where the Americans are whooping in delight at blowing up the Iraqis and generally acting as if they are having a good time.
They are uncivilised trigger-happy morons who aren't mentally fit to hold weapons, I saw one one of them kiss his gun - how much does that tell you that he's enjoying it too much.

I know this may sound a bit naive and ignorant and I'm not commenting on the characteristics of every member of the army but when I was at school it was all the thugs and bullies who joined the army.

The obvious and only answer to this question is "No they are not."

SOME of them are, but thats true of all armies. The only shocking thing here is that Lamericans still buy the "our brave noble boys" BS when most other societies know damn well the army is where it's rejects end up.

theyre the worst army with the best equipment...
they have half-arsed training and like you said, are overzealous thugs

even with our jamming weapons and pairs of boots to share between a whole regiment, the British army is a far more disciplined and professional - and all in all and more effective fighting force - than the US army

perfect point, the British controlled areas of Iraq came under relative control ages before the US areas, because of the softly softly approach and generally better attitude the soldiers showed to Iraqi citizens, as opposed to American tactics.

The majority of soldiers in any army aren't really of the highest morals. They are people who are willing to go out there and kill, clearly thugs but its not just US troops guilty of this.

I saw somebody on the news this moring who was complaining and blaming the government for the death of his son, who was a soldier in the army in Iraq.

But I was thinking, what do they seriously expect. They shouldnt have invaded a country and expect that a soldier who is at war would not have any chance of dying. That's what soldires do. They die.

War is war. You go out and you don't show any mercy to the opposing force. If he gunned down a civilian, that's on him and he should be repremanded, but if it was an emey soldier, good. Showing mercy is a sign of weakness in the eyes of the enemy. Do you seriously think the Iraqi soldiers would treat us civily and ask us politely before they shoot us in our faces? Get a grip, it's not a ****ing civil disagreement.

It's an unnecessary war, but that's exactly what it is, a war. You leave the civilians alone, and mercilessly slaughter the enemy, because that's all you can expect them to do for you.

Not all, but when you've seen that much war and death, sometimes your mind gets warped to the very thing you're trying to prevent.

You're fighting an enemy that stoops to tactics like booby trapping dead bodies with bombs and shooting at you while holding a white flag of surrender.

It's easy to sit here in your comfy chair in front of a computer from home and ridicule the actions of those troops.

I don't approve of what he did by any means, but out there, under the pressure and stress those soldiers are under....things like this are bound to happen.

To believe that this is the only incident of this sort is ignorance. This just happens to be the only time something like this was caught on tape.

I'm willing to bet if the roles were switched and a defenseless American was on the floor....the enemy would have made his passing a lot more painful than a bullet to the head.

very true

everyone who bashes on their own troops needs to STFU unless they have seen action themselves and have a basis for comparison.

i have never served, but am politically outspoken. i am very vocal about my opposition to the war in iraq and how it has been conducted. however, you will NEVER hear me badmouth our troops.

so again, to all those armchair soldiers, please stfu

War is war. You go out and you don't show any mercy to the opposing force. If he gunned down a civilian, that's on him and he should be repremanded, but if it was an emey soldier, good. Showing mercy is a sign of weakness in the eyes of the enemy. Do you seriously think the Iraqi soldiers would treat us civily and ask us politely before they shoot us in our faces?

Whatever you believe is up to you. Personally I believe that there are rules to war, esspecially if you try to hold your own country and soldiers up as morally superior to your enemy. If america is trying to convince the world that they are morally superior and doing us all a favour (by america I mean Bush, no general offense intended) then the behaviours regarding the Abu Gahrib scandal, the retention of the prisoners at Gitmo, and the entire Iraqi war are showing the world that you are just like everyone else.

War brings out the best in some individuals, bravery, comorodery, and compasion and mercy in some. But War also brings out the worst in large groups of people and nations and often makes them feel comfortable in justifying things that are morally wrong no matter what the circumstance.

Saying that they would do the same to our soldiers is even more reason to take the higher ground.

I'm in agreeance with PVS. Unless you have been there in the middle of hell, then please do us all a favor and shut up.


corn

I argee!Not all of them are bad but I must say t he who thing about the Troops abusing the man is just plain wrong.We set a great exsample of what america stands for when we did that.
I am still desgusted by that whole thing.But there are many troops who don't acted like so to blame all of them is not reallly that fair.JM

Your communication skills are horrific for a 14 year old. For god's sake use spell check so we can attempt to understand your point.

Brilliant isn't it this shock about soldiers being violent! What on Earth else would anyone expect of people who are trained to kill arbitrarily? of COURSE they are going to be violent and use real bullets instead of paintballs... Next I expect some hysteria about athletes being quite athletic.

Soldiers are not trained to kill arbitrarily. Actually they are trained to do the complete opposite.

HEy! Guess what - anyone saying "if your going to badmouth our troops..STFU!!!" - did it never occur to you that freedom of speech is - according to the US president - one of the liberties that this war is about?

Nobody is under any illusion that under combat conditions things happen that the public dont know about - and this instance seems like it's probably a ground clearance where you put 2 bullets into any prone "corpse" just to make sure its not doggo - its in the army HANDBOOK for petes sake.

But the whole "the enemy would do the same so we have to" argument and "support our troops or shut up" is worse than supporting the war. In a moral minefield like this conflict the moment you adopt enemy tactics through choice, or begin to say that expressing any non supportive viewpoint is wrong - you become worse than the thing you are fighting. Worse yet, you have lost the REAL war you are fighting - the war for "liberation"

So could you ignorant assholes please STFU. Thanks.

depends on the task at hand

what a bunch of incoherant babble.

hookd on foniks wurkd fer me!!!

i dont know if you were referring to my post, but i will respond nonetheless.

i say "dont BASH our troops" not "dont bash the government"
the actions of a handful of troops should never lead to bashing of the entire armed forces. back in the sixties, there were those who were brave enough to oppose the war in vietnam. unfortunately, there were also lowlife scumbag assh0les who chose to spit on our troops when they came home...SPIT ON THEM.

thats the difference. "support our troops" does NOT mean "support the war"
it simply means dont bash people who are overseas in a shitstorm.

No they aren't. Of course well disciplined soldiers will never get the publicity. If it bleeds, it leads.

If you want to see undisciplined thugs, look at the insurgents that they are fighting. C'mon, this was a stupid question.

perhaps the troop who shot the wounded fighter should have exercised more caution.

but on the other hand, thats easier said than done.

if you were in a war for the past year, seeing your friends wounded and killed by enemy soldiers either playing dead, or rigged with explosives, you may not be so calm and rational as when you view the video at home sitting on the lazy boy.

horrible shit happens in warfare. the days of opposing sides wearing different color uniforms and meeting at the center of a battlefield are looooong gone. sometimes unarmed wounded enemy soldiers are shot by mistake. sometimes our OWN troops are shot by mistake in friendly fire.

i strongly oppose the policy of indiscriminately bombing a whole city and killing tens of thousands of innocents, but on level of urban warfare, this shit just happens. its tragic, but it happens. and no level of training and discipline will prevent it.

I agree PVS, but I thnk people have confused acknowledging that it happens with condoning it.

well, nobody is in a position to condone accidents.

example: how can you condone or not condone friendly fire? its accidental, so approval or disapproval are not options.

that prison abuse scandal is another issue entirely, dont get me wrong.
other isolated incidents of murder, harassment and things of this nature are
also a different issue.

why the poster lumped all these issues together is beyond me. the incident where the unarmed soldier was shot in the mosque and the prison abuse scandal are apple and orange. its just a blanket statement trying to paint those in the military as assh0les.

Its easy to be thousands of miles away in safe conditions condeming actions of soldiers who are in the midst of where the shit really hits the fan. War is cruel and unessesariy use of deadly violance will always be there. Only thing now we are invited to witness some of it trough the media. Of course it was uncalled for by the action of the US soldier who shot the injured and unarmed Iraqi soldier/rebel. It is even more incomprehensible to do such a deed in front of a camera. But thats war for ya, this is some of what war is all about

I know this war shouldn't be played as "an eye for an eye"


but hey, they've been beheading innocent civilian aid workers and contractors. Taste of their own medicine much?

Not ALL are. Some are indeed, and some troops more than others. for example - In second world war Russian soldiers were out of control with the drinking and raping, while German soldiers, even though they were enemy were trained extreamly well not to do any of those things.

Your question is just like any other generalisation - not ALL of them are undisciplined thugs - some YES.

Actually Lil, German soldiers were under instructions to reproduce with women from the places they conquered(do you really think the SS etc would have had so many members without this instruction .) Thus multiplying and producing more of that lovely Aryan race Hitler had in mind. If the women did not sleep with the men consentially (sp) They were practically Raped.

that Iraqi hadnt done it.

But by your logic if sombody in the country did it, they all pay?

Ok, and eye for an eye, lets all go to war with America for practically no reason

Erm no. Who told you that? Women in Germany were instructed to have more children and thus having - pure German children. Why do you think Hitler got rid of so many Gypsies?!
Germans were invading other countries and while they were doing so they were extremely disciplined soldiers. SS has nothing to do with this, neither does SA.

German soldiers were instructed to reproduce. Whats the point in German women reproducing at home? Do it all over.

Recall the Night of the Long Knives? That was more shocking!

WTF?

Where the hell did you hear that?! Please tell me which source told you that German soldiers were ''instructed to reproduce''

Yeah, damn Hitler - the WWII had all to do with sex - thats why Hitler invaded all those countries - because he wanted his solderis to reporoduce. Its all about sex - the world war II according to Sauron was about sex.

Thats not what im saying, please refrain from putting words in my mouth or distorting what im saying.

ww2 began for a number of reasons. Sex had nothing to do with it, are you insane? It began basically when hitler decided he wanted more living space for his lovely angry people
ww2 shouldnt have even begun, hitler broke MANY of the points of the Treaty Of Versailles.
Sending troops into the rhineland
Re-arming
re-joining with austria
Brave little fellow wasnt he?

Of course once he had control of a few places, he decided making some nice aryan babies would be good.

I can understand where your coming from thinking this is nonsense, i argued the point aswell saying that 'Letting your soldiers sleep with women in the middle of a war isnt a bright idea' and refused to believe it. But believe me, its true, after being shown several different resources all of which stated it was true, i believed it.
You should to, otherwise im going to have to go get some damn textbook or some webpage to show you.

Please!! Pelase do show me where it says that, i would love to read it! Get the webpages and textbooks out - all of it, and please let me see it, otherwise im going to continue thinking that you're pulling this facts straight out of your ass.

Second of all, my point was about discipline, not a goddamned WWII.

Oh sorry, i dont know how i could have misread that one.


But of course, i will bring you my nice solid proof, will get the stuff from school tomorrow.



Btw- are you implying i store things in my ass?

Err, never heard that oddball idea before Sauron...

... but by the same measure, there is plenty of evidence (and eyewitness accounts) of Wehrmacht units in Russia performing atrocities as routine. It was a vicious bastard war out there and the German army that fougnt there was most unlike that in Africa and Western Europe. There was a certain rivalry that the Wehrmacht had with the SS to 'achieve' more out there.

German soldiers committed some terrible crimes in the name of their ideology (or hitlers rather), I was only stating that their discipline was way better than Russian soldiers for example while in other countries.

In general, I agree, but I think we have to call being in Russia itself the exception, which was certainly the Russian's justification for doing the same back, for what that's worth.

Yes that is true, Russia did have some major problems with discipline.


Oh Ush: I swear to you its true

I believe someone is mixing some stuff up here...

the german troops didn't do such crimes, they had no instructions for this and if it happened it was due to the soldier himself.

What did happen, was that there was this project somewhere in Germany under the leadership of that insane doctor that did surgeries on twins and such, to create more and pure German-kids (blond hair, blue eyes, what ever the english name is)

Yeah, sick bastards.

Anyway, I do apologize for getting this away from topic, i was only using a general example.

They didn't rape women? Hmm, guess they were too busy burning jews in giant ovens.

if they had Tex, the war would never have escalated... they would have died of laughter

Oh, and to answer the original question of this thread. No, not all American soldiers are thugs.

Some may be, but that's true with every army.

except for belgium, since they don't have any

Backfire, did you happen to hear Bill Hicks skit on "Gays in the military"? Best military skit ever.

-AC

whats this load of crap, coming from a country that was conquered by the Germans during WWII I have never heard of such things. Sure some German soldiers found love among women form the conquered territories, but the Nazis was hysterical about the right breed. So not too many of the places they conquered would pass their eye of the needle as a breeding ground for their "master race". My country would fit it though since the Nazi progaganda machine drooled all over the Scandinavian look, but there has been very few stories of German soldiers violating the local girls. Both from Norway and Denmark

Every war has reports of crimes agains't humanity. We can't really know whether the soldiers did it or not unless evidence is presented. Armies raiding a city and killing, raping, stealing isn't new. It has happen since the dawn of history that soldiers commit atrocities. Whether the Army is American or European or African...etc. there will be reports of crimes committed agaisn't civilians. For every war there is there will always be crimes committed.

America is one of the most disciplined Military systems in the world. Of course you are going to have a few loose cannons here and there. This is inevitable, because the soldiers are every day people, though the military changes personalities, it still doesn't change the essence of the person. When you are ordered to go and kill certain people or destroy certain things, you have to, or face prison time. These actions may appear as thuggish, but are actually a great example of their discipline. Many people make this war in Iraq out to look like thatAmerican and English soldiers (more so American) are killing innocent civilians. Many of these civilians you hear about getting killed in Iraq, are getting killed by there own people, or pull a gun on American soldiers, I am sorry, but if a child pulls an automatic weapon on a soldier, they more than deserve to get shot dead. I am not saying that there have been bombings by American and allied forces that have killed Civilians, but this is the cause and effect of war, even if there is no real cause. T

he soldiers are being told they must do this to defend their country, i can tell you from growing up on military bases, not many soldiers do the things they do for their country, but for their fellow soldiers, or because they are faced with danger, and have to respond. If they don't, they wil be dead, or in prison.

thats why I deliberatly wrote german soldiers to distance them from the nazis.

I do believe I've seen that bit, I don't remember much about it, however.

no mistake TO.......... you just checking me out and that a girl is fast on the trigger is how I like it........we dont fire blanks though

Finti> That's okay... Remember, I know kung-fu...
(Dodges - Neo-style)

...
Where were we?

wasnt talking about flying bullets of lead though

MORALS, in WAR!? Have you ever even seen two armies at war? It's kill or be killed, there is no morals. How do you attach morals to something like murder? It's illogical. We murder them before they murder us. That's the way it is, and always has been. It's basic survival instincts for ****'s sake. Attaching morals to a war is just ridiculous. Attach morals to everday civil life, not war. If you haven't noticed yet, "civil war" is an oxymoron.

That "REAL war" you speak of, and the war that goes on on the battlefield are two VERY different things. Next time someone has a machine gun pointed at you, see how far thinking about how to get out of the situation morally will get you.

And you just grouped 2 different arguments into one, which doesn't look good for you. I never said "support our troops or STFU!" but you took a nearly direct quote from me and bunched it in with your "don't stoop to their level" babble.

Remeber how far fighting with morals got the British troops in the Revolutionary War? History is there to teach us the mistakes that were made in the past.

You know, it might have been ''kill or be killed'' some few hundred years ago with ''two armies at war''

That bullshit doesnt exist anymore - now its ''bomb the civilians - kill the civilians - burn down the buildings - hide in the burnt down buildings and wait for an enemy solder to show up.'' THATS todays war.

Did you also know that 80% of war victims are actually civilians?

Its funny you should talk about 'real war', but while you're at it, have YOU seen the real war? Ever lived through it? No? How can you even begin to preach of what ''real war'' is?

Theres no such thing just war. But. There has to be some morality involved. Do you ever wonder why people are accused of war crimes, or didn't that ever occur to you? Attaching morals to war is not rediculous - Killing of an unarmed civilian is NOT moral, necessary or justified in any way. Key words being ''unarmed civilian'' Oh yeah, im sure he was a huge threat to soldier with a machine gun.

I didn't say anything about killing unarmed civlians did I? No, I didn't so half of your argument is void. And anyway, there are Iraqi supporters executing our civilians all the time! ON CAMERA to show to the victim's families. Or haven't you seen the news reports?

It's MURDER, two armies are out to murder each other, you can't make murder moral however hard you try.

No, I havne't been there, but I've taken the time to research the subject, way before this thread was ever made. I've seen atrocious acts and horrible things that changed my views(yes, I once thought like you), and those were only pictures! Imagine what it's like out there in the heat of battle.

And apparently you haven't heard the reports of Iraqi soldiers disguising themselves as unarmed civilians, and then opening fire when American troops try to help them.

I'm not trying to get you to support the war, i'm trying to get you to understand that war is no joke, it's no place to be civilized and ask people nicely to shoot them. It's STILL "kill or be killed" whether you want to see it that way or not, it's always been that way, it's basic animal instinct(believe it or not, humans are animals). Survival of the fittest.

Wait, YOU are trying to teach ME that war is not a joke?! I have lived through a war, 2 wars even, what can YOU possibly teach ME about the war? Nothing.

I dont get what the hell you're talking about, did you even read my post?! 80% of people killed in the war ARE civilians - unarmed ones - women raped, children murdered - and please take a look at the theme of this thread.

And do you release what you're saying?! Do you? Yeah someone who invaded my country is trying to (somehow) help me. Yey! I think we love American soldiers on our grounds. WTF?! If someone invades your country, of course you are gonna goddamned defend yourself - Americans are helping Americans - I know it, the rest of the world knows it, but some people just cant seem to get to grips with that.

And no shit, humans are animals - we are a social animal, for your information - we have the skills other animals do not - yet lets take an animal for example - when a leader of pack of wolves is challanged by another wolf, they will fight untill one of them backs off and shows defeat - the fight is then over. In humans however, if an oponent shows a weakness, the enemy will beat it to death! That says a lot about us, doesnt it just?

Kill or be killed? I think in this case is invade and kill - how can you NOT mention killing of the civilans when 80% of people that die in the war are civilans?!

"everyone who bashes on their own troops needs to STFU" No - It wasnt you that said it - i didnt say it was you, my comment wasnt directed at you: I said "the people who have been saying.." It's complex to address more than one issue at a time, but its something adults do. sorry if it confuses you.

In all the time you have taken to "research the subject" You have apparently never understood that these soldiers are fighting un-uninformed natives using guerrilla tactics. Yet you say "If he gunned down a civilian, that's on him and he should be reprimanded, but if it was an emey soldier, good." As if it's a video game where the bad guys dress in black. Dont even get me started on "reprimanded"

Your "extensive research" was jerking off while watching Blackhawk Down - am I right?

Here's another statistic for you - For every 1 American soldier that an Iraqi terrorist kills, they kill about 20 iraqi citizens. They'll blow up a building filled with Iraqi citizens just to kill one american soldier that may be inside said building.

Citizens death is a unfortunate part of war. It sucks, but it happens in every war, both sides make mistakes, and for the most part it is not done purposely.

Where did this statisctic come from?

The teacher for my argument class told us. Don't know the exact source though.

Darth Saurons ass? He apparently has an ass full of them.

Im out of this thread. its giving me a nosebleed.

Yeah, same.

Hmmm...I think his source is a bit more credible then that. For every stat he tells us he will generally give us a source if we want it. This time no one asked though.

It makes perfect sense though. Those terrorists just don't care about life. They do not care if they kill innocent people (as they've shown time and time again), as long as it helps their "cause" they'll gladly wipe out 20 people to get 1 that they want.

Lil: You speak as if I support the war. I don't. But if we are going to be in a war, then that's it, it's war. You can't be moral while killing people. Yes, if, let's say Britain, decided "let's get bush out of office", and a British soldier came up to me wanting to help me get the **** out of here, I'd accept the help. I hate Bush. I didn't say that it was RIGHT that 80% of civilains are war casualties, in fact, I said it wasn't. I said that there are no morals in war. Killing civilians is not moral by any means. Killing the opposing soldiers is not moral either, but it's necessary.

Mr. Zero: Don't group in what I say with what other ignorant people say, even if it's "more complex" to seperate them. Make an effort to make yourself clearer in those situations, I know you aren't one of those 14-year-old illiterate kids that roam around on these boards. You're fully capable of it. You also misinterpreted what I wrote, I don't think it's a video game. I think I've expressed that a few times actually. Gunning down a civilian is obviously wrong, and should not go unnoticed, but gunning down an opposing soldier is necessary.

I never watched Black Hawk Down to tell you the truth. It didn't interest me. I don't like war, most of it is unnecessary, but if a country is going to go into war, they can't feel remorse or mercy for the enemy, because they won't show it to you.

I would think that for the most part soldiers are extremely disciplined. It's ironic because we watched a special about military colleges in school today and the training they have to go through, the average person does not have the discipline to make it through all that.

that sounds more like trying to avoid a sinking ship then a response because you have been proven wrong.

At what point has Mr Zero been proven wrong?

hey, what can we say in defence of ourselves? the country strated with gorilla warfare, the civil war was full of sharpshooters and such. we're just a barbaric country

I agree 100%

and for this thread. my God a bunch of little pricks sitting at computers telling the infantry what they are suppose to think and do when you have no idea what is like to be shot at and see your buddies being blown away by other little pricks waisting entire crowds so that when the pricks at home in the countries of the soldier get mad enough they'll protest and get the politicians to withdraw them, directly handing the little pricks blowing people up power so they can do whatever they think will make them happy.

I will be an officer in this man's army soon enough (ROTC) and i can say for one thing, we are the best trained and we are as morale as any army going to fight for the freedom of others and to bring our brothers home. We don't give idiots rifles to waist whatever they see in front of them, those people are kicked out at boot camp.

half assed training! hysterical the british national gaurd units have no regulations, they allow thier units to have long hair and develope thier own rally schedules

The British number in 15,000 and are in like 3 cities. We are in Fallujah and bagdad and everywhere else. you do the math.

Civilian population of Falluja is locked into the city, bombarded, and denied food and water - an event that must surely be recorded as a dreadful war crime in history ....and you seem very proud your troops are there, how appaling.

And Im sure you know how that feels like right? Because Im sure you are a veteran of war, because if you're not then I would be sat here, at my computer thinking your talking bullshit.

do you have any idea what is happening there? Denied food and water? You seem to forget that our forces are searching house to house and the city is officially secure and the population is being supplied by our "monsterous" troops.

And war crime? You have no idea it seems what a war crime is because if you haven't noticed 98% of the forces that are fighting us are commiting war crimes. targeting civilians, executing prisoners, executing and capturing civilians, ransom, dressing as civilians,..... and many more.

Please tell me what two wars you experienced. Please, since you have mentioned them before. And where you fighting directly? Did you hold a rifle in your hands?

Whos fighting whom? Eh? If I remember correctly America invaded Iraq - holly shit, im sure Iraqi civilans are gratefull to have forgein solders in ther country shooing them for fun (see the first post)

This just shows how much you know. Where exactly did your statistic of 98% come from? Did you make that up right now? Just like the rest of the bullshit you make up and pass on as facts then accuse me and Tex of never providing anything valid?

I want to keep my private life off the boards - but you already know im from Europe, and you can see my age in my profile, and im sure if you know your history as well as you preach to us, you can surly work out what warS im talking about?

Your 19, same as me. there has been the "Cold War" and Kosovo. and your in Briton. if you were in Kosov then you saw monsters slaughter the innocents and the Americans try to get involve and the UN stop us. If you where in the Eastern block you saw the Communists terrorise people but you basically stand for most of what the socialists believe in so thats an oxymoron. Only thing else i know of is maybe the terrorists in the IRA killing people with bombs.

The first post was a soldier killing a man who slaughtered, more then likely a friend or a civilian.... i would be pissed to. And when you are surrounded by death and you see an enemy slaughtering people for a cause that is no less then slavery of thier regime, which by the way would be a religious zealot majority surpressing all free thought, which ironically what you protest at every opportunity.

it wasn't a statistic if you don't notice thats how the enemy fights, tell me i'm wrong. You and Tex usually refute any arguement against you with opinion or "witty comebacks related to obvious pop culture"

Wait? What? I agree with RTO? This is AMAZING. Wow.

We have before in the past tongue many a moon ago

I know, I've changed quite a bit. My veiws went from conservative to liberal, to being somewhere in the middle. Now hardly anyone agrees with me! I find it hard to stand my ground, but I feel that I have to.

Whelp... i am where i've begun... anywhere i see right.

I think I may have just agreed with RTO on some point or other too!

And referring to earlier in the thread I once was at a talk by a member of the German infantry that invaded Russia, but can't remember the salient points too clearly oh well that's a mind rotting lifestyle for you!

Oh wow, your history (or recent events rather) is very appaling. Read a book or an academic journal.

please... tell us how many hot wars have been fought in EUROPE in the last 19 years.

So, I still dont know where you got the 'statistic'. You came up with 98% - thats a numerical datum, and thus a statistic. Yeah, you are wrong because you pulled that 'statistic' out of your ass. Oh look, if i put some numbers in my post it will make me look smarter - well it doesn.

If Bush administration isnt suppressing free thought i dont know who is - but you know it must be great not thinking for yourself, it must be great to just listen to whatever your government tells you and take it and and believe it because its so nice to bleat like a lost sheep and pretend you know a first thing about anything, when in fact you dont have a clue. You've just proven it to me by making up a rediculous statistic on the spot.

Have a lolly.

Well it's an inevitability with improved technology. No government seems to be able to avoid forcing their untruths and spin onto the slack jawed populace through the TV!

I only said 98 percent because i knew you would say some strange thing like some of them actually are fighting for something and not killing civilians purposefully. I made it up because if you havent noticed THATS wHAT THEY ARE DOING... see you only refute and attack the obviously sarcastic statistic i created rather then answer the queastion i possed to you in response.

Please... you seem to know so much about living in America please tell me where a government agency is stopping me from typing and walking in public and speaking my mind? please..... tell me.... and what about the people who stand around doing the exact opposite of what the "government" asks, they are no more clueless then the hand feed fools.

see there goes your rounding about threw sarcastic remarks that have no relivence to anything because you have no answer.

I think that governments affect even those who disagree with them to some extent. You know how shallow most people are.

There's dumb people in every army.
Your generalising, stereotyping and disrespecting the 98% of "civilised" US troops that put their lives in danger everyday.

IT'S WAR!!!!! F*CKED UP SH*T HAPPENS IN EVERY WAR!!!!!

THAT'S WHY WAR SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now there's an argument if I ever saw one.

10 points for TH.

Sure, it can be appaling. But, throughout history many Americans have been opposed to war and have died trying to voice their oppinions via demonstrations and rallies and votes. I think people need to realize that Bush doesn't think for us all.

I think she's on that side with us TH.

Okay, sorry LB.

the balkan conflict that lasted almost a decade in the 1990`s was more than just the Kosoo, you had the Croation vs Serbian conflict. Bosnia VS Kroatia and Serbia, in a three way conflict.
Of conflicts you have the Northern Irish one, the Bask situation in Spain

best trained compared to who?

Still waiting for some sort of reference for this lie. Nothing more ignorant than someone who feels the need to make shit up to back-up a failing argument.

Corn and VPL - You want to explain to me how you managed to come to this conclusion? Was it an insight of some kind or what? Why exactly do you think I have no right to my opinion about the few addled morons in the US army that think its amusing to (for instance) subject prisoners of war to psychological torture?

The footage of an American military unit gunning down a wounded person in a mosque was shown here two nights ago. That is unacceptable! The language bit was left on so you could here what these so called "soldiers" were saying. Bloody hell! Shouldn't your IQ be above 60 if you're deciding the fate of another human being? I get so angry with this type of "war" for which, incidently, not much substantiation has been given yet. It's all very good and well to sit in one of the largest countries in the world and say things like "the war is justified and kill or be killed". How in god's name is a woman and her child and people who are guests at a freaking wedding a threat to the military? This whole thing has turned into a fiasco that has major implications for the little countries like mine. I seriously thought that in this day and age people would know better. Yes, war is war. But aren't wars supposed to have a valid reason for their existence? What's behind this one? Money, money and more bloody money!! What right does a soldier have for gunning down an unarmed person? No-one has that right.

This doesn't necessarily mean that all US soldiers are power-hungry, god-complex people. But those that are should not be allowed to carry a bloody rifle.

i agree, billions of american soldiers play with the dead and kill completely innocent people, babies even

the american military is a huge disgrace now imo

the news filters it also, they only have cover stories of american soldiers having their heads chopped off by iraqi soldiers, but they dont show the american soldiers shooting mothers, father, and children then taunting their dead bodies by pissing on them or doing much sicker things

billions of american soldiers? and war has always innocent casualties

get your facts straight, the media is the reason why stories of SOME US soldiers misconduct have come out, if you wanna contribute to this debate at least get the stories right. First it aint american soldiers having their head decapitated it is civilians from all over the world.
And the few doesnt corrupt the lot

I've read all the arguements and I do concede that I've been way too harsh by saying "all" the American troops are thugs. I just think that the general attitude of the Americans ( again refering to news reports and various interviews I've watched) is basically the same as the Iraqis attitude. This war is not meant to a religious war but some Americans I've listened to them refer to the Iraqis as "followers of Satan and we will destroy them" and all that bullshit. The Americans who unfairly treated the prisoners were the catalyst to the kidnapping and the killing of prisoners. Ken Bigley- a British citizen R.I.P and and many others. These events in the prison were ordered apparently by a superior officer. What does this show? someone had to be stupid to have did this right in the middle of a war. Did this officer not expect retalliation from the Iraqis? This is the kind of naivety thats in the American forces right now and you only have to look at the man at the top to realise where this is coming from. A large percentage of the American forces are trigger-happy, undisciplined and employ a certain degree of happiness when Iraqis are killed. A soldier is not meant to LIKE what he is doing.

im talking of mainstream news, at least over here in florida thats how it is, as i watched the news and it completely filters out alot of very interesting and important topics, maybe where you live you get all the facts straight but not here

"billions" obviously was strong, i didnt mean it literally, war does always have innocent casualties very true, but this is no longer a war between u.s and them, this is turning out to be more and more like mass genocide

as for civilians all over getting their heads decapitated, im speaking in the sense of these two forces going against eachother not the whole entire world, although i have yet to see or hear of any decapitations in australia, japan, greenland, iceland, antarctica, united states, or united kingdom, so obviously this world isnt in great chaos as you say it is

im not speaking of the very few of the american military "corrupting" all of the american military, in my opinion its a disgrace not some sort of corruptive massive plot

its funny when debates like these occur, the opinion of one person matters less and less yet ironically the core of the arguement would deal with "freedom of speech" one way or another

What the hell are you drinking? The reason they don't report anything like that because it doesn't happen. You mistaken us for the terrorists slaughtering crowds, mind you i do not say Iraqis because its not the Iraqis fighting us, they are outsiders angry over thier loss of power.

you obviously would rather preach to me than read the entirety of my posts,
you would rather quote me out of context in an attempt to prove me idiotic, so unless you want to go back and read it, why should i repeat myself?

The terrorists have always beheaded prisoners. that is just an excuse that they like to say. Kidnap and extortion along with drug trafficing is the way they got the many millions to fund many of the terror camps.

it doesnt happen?i think it does as friends come back from that war and told me of what went on


very very good point

lets make a deal zero, ill repost what i said, and you actually read it before you try to squash me, ok?

I just said kosov because Yugosolvia would make people scratch there heads. Bosnia & Serbia are all in Yugosolvia and part of Kosovo.

I could also say Heris Govania

I mentioned the Irish conflict, mainly waged by IRA.

Bask , just forgot about that one because i was like 4 when it happened. And i'm pretty sure Lil wasn't in Spain.

there are very few soldiers who can handle a war, PVS makes a very good point in that last quote he posted

WTF? I know very well what im talking about, im offering you a lolly because YOU dont have a clue, to suck on something instead of spewing all kinds of crap at us here!

You didnt mention any of the things Finti has - you were vaguely guessing fron what you've seen on the news - just like everything else you've said so far.

Second of all - you dont have a clue, I shall repeat that because you dont seem to know. Kosovo is part of Serbia. Bosnia is NOT part of Yugoslavia and it hasnt been for the past 10 or so years. Yugoslavia doesnt exist anymore its ''former''. If theres anything left fromYugoslavia than that is Montenegro and Serbia.

And you cant assume Im not from Spain - because you dont know, but im guessing everything said so far for you has ben an assumption.

PVS, we agree on most things, but im going to disagree on this with you. What you are doing is making an excuse for those soldiers who have wounded an unarmed man - theres no excuse for an arm officer to do what he has done to an unarmed civilan - none.
America is the attacker in this war - assault not defence, which makes it even worse.

Telling us to STFU is little far fetched - and its called freedom of speach. American troops have invaded another country and you are wanting to excuse their terrible acts - how can that possibly be excused at any level?

I don't see where you're getting all of this out of the 2 sentence comment I made, and your use of the word "it" is a little vague.

If you mean that the particular Iraqi that got shot was not the one who actually did the beheading, then you could have made that more clear. And obviously the odds of him being the actual perpatrator of the beheading act are low, but he fights American soldiers from the confines of a Mosque, so I would catagorize him in a similar group with the rest of his fellow insurgents.

I used NO logic in the comment I made previously, and I even went as far as to say "I know it shouldn't be seen eye for an eye." I was making a point that if you're going to go ahead and execute innocent civilians aid workers, then having one of your own armed milita who was previously shooting at American soldiers shot and killed while already wounded on the floor pales in comparison. He was unarmed at the time, but he wasn't unarmed before he got injured. An aid worker is NEVER armed.

I give you an inch with this "eye for an eye" comment and look at you trying to take a mile.

"Lets all go to war with America for practically no reason."

what point are you trying to prove here? I'm talking about war time tactics/decisions and you're talking about reasons for going to war. And what part about your comment I quoted above has anything to do with eye for an eye?

Did America go to war with the world or Iraq? For example, I fail to see how countries like France, Germany, England, or Japan going to war with America can be seen as "eye for an eye." If you went to the trouble to make up "my logic" for me...then please explain your own logic first.

lil B, i can understand you being upset by certain incidents of this war. and certain soldiers are just evil bastards...but may i remind you that the title of this thread, and the arguement i declare "STFU" against is this:

"Are American troops undisciplined thugs dressed as soldiers?"

now, that is a general statement based on any man or woman who would enlist and put their life on the line for their country. im sorry, but i find that to be entirely ignorant.

" theres no excuse for an arm officer to do what he has done to an unarmed civilan - none"

you dont know that lil b. ever hear of the boy who cried wolf? if you spent a year watching your friends blown to pieces by wounded and dead rigged with explosives, and enemy soldiers diguised as wounded civilians, you may not be so willing to trust your life with every stranger you see lying on the ground.

but like i said lil b., neither of us can pass judgement as we have no idea. we are both sitting at our computers, 99.9% certain that we will make it through the rest of the day without being shot, or blown up. how can either of us even attempt to know what was going through that soldier's mind? maybe he was a gung ho assh0le who should be thrown in jail, maybe he just paniked and made a grave error. it happens in war lil b. many times a soldier has to live out the rest of his life knowing he accidentally shot and killed a friend on his side by accident...thats war.

"Telling us to STFU is little far fetched - and its called freedom of speach. American troops have invaded another country and you are wanting to excuse their terrible acts - how can that possibly be excused at any level? "

thats just it, i didnt tell everyone to STFU. like i said, there is a very thick line between condoning/condemning (through trial, not our uninformed opinions) the actions of one troop and bashing on all soldiers.

Yup, those are traps set by the enemy. They used their own people to kill the soldiers. As mention before war is war and innocent people will die.

and those two wars were?




why are you avoiding the answer?

and then putting a "private life" spin on things. What wars you lived through would be minor information that you should be more than willing to share with everyone....if your statement wasn't bullsh!t



Who are you to say that "that bullsh!t doesn't exsist anymore" ?

I'd say your view point of "bomb the civilians" is far more bullsh!t. I'm really sure Americans are thinking "bomb the civilians!"

what has changed so much in the past couple hundreds years to make you think war is anything but "kill or be killed"

You lived through 2 wars....so what exactly do you define bullets flying over your head while your fellow soldiers get gunned down? Tea time?

I was talking of the foreign civilians kidnapped and beheaded in Iraq, after all that is the matter of this debate. The Iraqi situation

ehhh Yugoslavia was the common name of the balkan states of Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia Herzegovina, Kosovo, Macedonia , Serbia and Montenegro. It is Kosovo that was a part of Yugoslavia not the other way around and Kosovo has since 1999 been governed by the UN...oh and the Bask thing is still going on

Its been made clear that this thread is a generalisation - we can all see that and pretty much everyone commented on it. You did say everyone should STFU, and I quote YOU



So you have told us to STFU.

Im sorry, I absolutely fail to see your point. What you are telling me, in a nutshell is that its ok for a soldier to kill and shoot civilians because some of the soldiers are pretending to be civilians so they can attack? Thats utter bullshit, no offence, because theres a bigger probability that solder dressed as a civilan in a country of war, is going to die, then if hes dressed as a soldier with a gun in his hand - that is rather simple and straight forward to see, id say. So, there is no excuse for an armed officer to shoot a civilian, nor I can understand anyone who can support this idea.

You're right - i dont know for sure, but my research is far more extensive than of some people in this thread.

This war is not just in any possible way - the war isnt just, and neither are the killings of civilans. (or anyone else for that matter)

casualties of war, crude but its the truth.

I will not share any info about what i used to do or where i used to live or what i have done in my life - especially when people like you. You boviously have no clue of what im talking about otherwise you would have figured it out by now - evidently your recent history and familiarity with the current events is limited to what Bush tells you.
Good luck with that. Im not even gonna have an argument with you, because your knowledge doesnt compare to mine.

Run along.



And that just proved what I said previously - take your ignorance and vent it somewhere else, where people are stupid and will believe the shit you tell them - this isnt the place, there are educated people on here - quit embarrassing yourself.

ok, let me rephrase to clarify:

everyone who bashes on ALL of their own troops needs to STFU unless they have seen action themselves and have a basis for comparison.

"This war is not just in any possible way - the war isnt just, and neither are the killings of civilans. (or anyone else for that matter)"

you are correct, this war is bullshit. however, the majority of civilian deaths are caused by "smart weapons" ...a tragic oxymoron...as opposed to civilians being executed.
i have always verbally (well...literally in this case) condemned
the indiscriminate bombing of cities, claiming lives by the tens of thousands.

well people are kind of clueless if they expect a war without a bunch of innocent victims

true...ESPECIALLY in urban warfare.

dont have an option of something else if you wanna bring down a regime

What's with your attitude?

Why do you think that you are somehow better than me? Your arrogance is the only thing that is embarassing. Stop talking down to other members, particularly myself, just because their views differ from that of your own.

"run along" and "take your ignorance and vent it somewhere else"

It appears to me that you're the one doing the venting right now. I was just saying that what you said should be regarded as bullsh!t until you provide some sort of proof. Just like you said to Arachnoidfreak when he threw out the 98% figure.



I didn't even vote for Bush, nor do I agree with what "Bush tells me." I question nearly everything the man has to say and try to look at things from different perspectives. You are extremely narrow minded and feel that since you believe something, it must be the only answer.

Don't belittle me just to make yourself feel smart.

And for once, just answer the question. And stop being a snob.

and just to help you out, obviously i don't know what you are referring to, and the reason I ask such a question is because I would like you to enlighten not only myself, but the group.

Dodging the question is the only reason I think what you said is bullsh!t. If you answered it...I'd make you happy and shut up

hmm feeling a alian vs predator comming on

Something that should be mention here. I hope some of you are aware of that old military tactic in which rebels hide in Religious sites so that the enemy attacks them. See, they hide in temples or mosques and when the army comes in for Battle the rebels claims that the enemy is attacking their Religion. Is an old trick to win sympathy and to rally more people agaisn't the enemy. Don't be surprise if they claim a religious site has been disacrated by the Coallition forces. That's exactly what Iraqi rebels or Terrorist want......to make themselves look like martyrs. Don't be fooled so easily is and old age trick.

btw-Can we please avoid calling people ignorant or idiotic. No need to call other people's opinions names. Really...it will detoriate this thread and it is also very CHILDISH to think you know everything.

I dont' want it to come to that.

I just asked a question and when I got the run around I called bullsh!t.

She went off on the belittling remarks. I expect more/better from her...being the person she is.

Soldiers are not above inhumane and brutal actions. War itself is vicious business and it shouldn't be a shock when soldiers act viciously. That does not mean, however, that crimes should go unpunished.

It's a fact of war that one will likely end up dealing with people who were trying to kill you just a few minutes ago. How is a soldier supposed to react to the surrender of enemies who were just firing on him and who probably killed more than one of his friends? The laws of warfare require that he accept their surrender, but the facts of warfare are that many times the surrendering enemy ends up being shot right there. Understandable? Of course. Legal? No. Just because it's understandable doesn't mean that it isn't a war crime.

all you had to say was that you lied about the 2 wars in order to make yourself feel like more of an authority on the subject.

No one will hate you...I promise.

Nope, sorry finti, not this time - but when a more worthy componenet arises, oh youbetcha its gonna be AvP.

My god, you have no shame!

i say F*ck all those Iraqi bastards! im not saying that Our troops should run thru villages and burn and rape like they "allegedly" did in 'Nam, but if one of those bastards are pretending to be dead, or running for cover in a religious sanctuary our GI's should feel free to blast him up with extreme prejudice.

it just kills me to see news footage of crying women and children, but oh well. war is war ladies and gents. deal w/it!

I believe that's opponent

but i may be mistaken....with all this ignorance and all.

Nope, 'ignorance' doesnt quite cover it.

i would hope not, because ingorance isn't a word. What I spelled was IGNORANCE and I didn't need to edit it.

My God, have you no shame!

Because I made a typo?
Nope, that still doesnt undermine my knowledge or intelligence.