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Seeing how everybody is getting so worked up about the American soldiers acting as brutes, then getting distracted by 9/11, and getting reduced to name-calling now, I was just wondering:

Does anybody agree America should never have been in Iraq in the first place?

Having lived in South Africa for thirty years now, through quite a bit of the apartheid era, where we took an ex-terrorist out of jail after 27 years and made him the president, I think, if anybody on this forum is, I am one of the few people qualified to ask this question.

My opinion is pretty straight forward: I think America should never have been in Iraq, and one of the main reasons they are there is because Bush is after the oil. I think America is one of the last few bullies in the world, pretending they are the policeman of the world and hiding their greed behind a sanctimonious face. With all the money they've spent on war, they could have fed most of the people in the world several times over and done something good for once.

I dont think the wars solely for oil, this is retribution for 9/11. Yep, Dick Cheney decided bombing Iraq would be a good idea mere hours after the first plane struck. I love Dick Cheney.

But dont blame America, dont even blame their government entirely, after all Britain didnt stop them, we encouraged them. France opposed the war, and now you have to order freedom fries

i blame our government.
it's not our war, but they send our army there insane.

Yeah.I blame your government too.

Yeah, whatever. There was no connection between Iraq and 9/11, until Bush decided to create a connection, because it was a golden excuse for him to invade Iraq and attempt to gain control over their oil.

Have you seen the footage of the public statements after 9/11? There was no, repeat, no connection between Iraq and 9/11. Osama bin Laden was in Afghanistan, as far as I know.

As for retribution for 9/11: Have you ever thought about what it was that caused 9/11 in the first place? You wanna tell me these terrorists spent all that time, money and effort in planning 9/11 for no reason whatsoever? What was it that made them so determined and comiitted in the first place? What was it that drove them so far over the edge that they killed all those people?

Maybe the fact that America, under their "God is on our side" leadership feel the need to stick their noses into every other country's business in the first place.

That's spoken.

you don't know which one is it

I do, but i can't say i blame my government, because i'm Belgian.And belgium has always been against the war in Iraq.

Just a thought from Bill Hicks, one of the most brilliant social commentators who ever lived:

"I'm so sick of arming the world, then sending troops over to destroy the ****ing arms, you know what I mean? We keep arming these little countries, then we go and blow the shit out of them. We're like the bullies of the world, y'know. We're like Jack Palance in the movie Shane, throwing the pistol at the sheepherder's feet.
"Pick it up."
"I don't wanna pick it up, Mister, you'll shoot me."
"Pick up the gun."
"Mister, I don't want no trouble. I just came downtown here to get some hard rock candy for my kids, some gingham for my wife. I don't even know what gingham is, but she goes through about ten rolls a week of that stuff. I ain't looking for no trouble, Mister."
"Pick up the gun."
(He picks it up. Three shots ring out.)
"You all saw him - he had a gun."

Yeah, they had weapons of mass destruction, alright

That is so right.

good for you.
our gov decided for us, and ppl are against war.
(if you thinks i'm american i'm not gonna talk with you ever again)

Belgian huh?

What's the problem with me being Belgian?

i think no prob.

anyway,the war is wrong ,every war is.

Helemaal niks. Ik merk nu enkel pas dat we er opnieuw een Belg bijhebben alhoewel je toch al een tijdje hier bent. Maar niet verwonderlijk, je hebt het merendeel in de Star Wars section uitgehangen

Dat is waar, het is waarschijnlijk de eerste keer dat ik hier post.(in dit forum)

I agree with all things said above the war in Iraq is nothing more than a facade of "lets go stop the terrorists" which you say lets go steal the oil!.
You guys should not blame your government I blame the United States only if G.W. hadnt decalared war and congress aproved it your nations wouldnt even be in this mess. After all the U.S does lead the world as leading superpower.

I don't think we should have invaded Iraq. I think they were just the easiest target to take out when we couldn't get the real threat - Osama Binladin.

The one thing I don't understand is how the so-called "superpowers" of the world are allowed Weapons of Mass Destruction when other countries are evidently not allowed to have them. How does America have the right to determine who is not allowed chemical and biological weapons, cruise missiles and nuclear bombs. Surely anyone with a brain can see that America already has their own arsenal of nasties. That they would readily employ to use if there's a shortage of oil, George Bush is still in control (I say "in control" but you know what I mean) and there's still a Middle-Eastern country left standing.

im pretty sure he was being sarcastic.
just check his sig. he's obviously no bush lover

I certainly didn't support the war, for many reason, ethical, moral, legal, political and so forth. A lot of Australians were the same. Sadly John Howard said quite clearly about how such matters were to important to be left to the voting public of Australia (who complained and then re-elected him, the worlds gone mad)

There was, after all, one good thing that came out of the Iraq war.

Comical Ali, man i loved that guy.

Remember the Iraqi guy (cant for the life of me remember his name) who would go on Iraq tv and say that Iraq was crushing America?

Quotes

I think it was just a diversion so people wouldn't say he wasn't doing anything about 9/11. He knew he wouldn't be able to "beat" Al Queda because they aren't a real army, so he invaded another middle eastern country and prayed Americans wouldn't notice the difference. And it looks like he was right. I don't know about oil though..

Aye, an interesting fellow who actually appeared to to believe the propaganda. I believe he is call Muhammed Saeed al-Sahaf, or just the Iraqi Information Minister. Does anyone know if he survived the war? Was he caught, and if so what is he charged with?

He was caught. I dont know what happened next though.


Did you know he has a DVD out in England?

I hadn't heard that, though it doesn't surprise me, people will produce anything these days. I wonder if he will get royalty's and eventually a spot on that show about passed stars, "Where are they now?"

This whole bush just wants the oil thing is just plain stupid.Some of you guys need to let it go.As for the war I am not saying I am for it but I am not saying I am againt it either.
I think I am in the middle!Anyway the sooner the soilders come back home the better!Even through it is strange but the soilders who are there support bush.
JM

No disrespect to the soliders out there. I too wish to see them (and our 'lads') home with there families and loved ones. But they can't help but support Bush and his cause on the basis its no more then proganda bull being fed to them. Hitler did it, Stalin did it, Hussain did it. And your probably right he didn't do it just for oil he did it to settle the score for his old man (the oil is just a bonus).

Not all of them do.

I don't like America being involved in Iraq at all. I'm glad Saddam is gone, but not at this expense.

I do still think there is an opportunity for a lot of good to come from all of this at the end, but by the look of things.....that opportunity is fading fast.

To tell the truth, I'm seriously disappointed in the UK for following America into the war. This whole "we're allies" reasoning is nothing but an excuse. The British we conned by their Prime Minister just like Americans were conned by their President.

I don't know if it would have changed America's decision to go to war with Iraq, but I think that if our good friends the British took a firm stand against the war, and even used their relationship with the US to try and prevent the war....then things might be a little different right now.

How on earth are you comparing Hitler to bush?Compare to Hitler Bush is a god!I really don't see your point on this.But then again I don't think I would.
Link I took you off my list but I still can't see your posts?Anyone know why?JM

When you consider who our Prime Minister is and who George Bush is, there is slim to no chance that he or the people he works with were gonna have any chance in persuading someone like Bush against what he was doing and Britain have relatively no choice in that position because if the time comes when any of our countries need back up, it's always one of the other who step in. Britain need the US to a higher extent than the US need Britain.

I didn't want to Britain to follow the US into Iraq but then again when did the people's view ever mean anything to politicians?

-AC

Its not comparison its called exemplification, and what do you mean by you don't think you'd see me point of view ?

I meant was that I don't think I would get your point of view.I mean Hitler and Bush are two different people.They did notheirng the same and to me one is bad hilter and bush is good.
that is what I am trying to say.JM

Black and White propaganda may agree with your view point. But Bush definitely ain't the saint you think he is.

I think he is more of a saint then Hilter is.Just wondering why don't you think he is a saint?JM

Hmmm lets see for one no human is a saint. As for Bush he's a bully boy who went to Iraq for the wrong reasons (i.e. to settle a score for his old man and all the precious oil). He doesn't care who dies just so long as he looks good, and he's totally screwing up Americas relations with the rest of the World - if one of these rogue countries was to take a pot shot at us then we'd be screwed 'cos we'd still be arguing.

Which we have no proof about that whole thing?If there is prove please tell me.Actly a person can be a saint.If they are dead for along time they become a saint.
But I was using it to say that Bush is a good man.This stuff about the oil junk does not change my mind about my views on bush.JM

If there is no proof to why we went to war then how can you dismiss the 'Oil' theory, 'cos in all honesty its a plausible one.

I have no idea why we are at war but I think there is more to it then what they are saying and I still don't think it has nothering to do with war thing.JM

Sorry oil thing!JM

No cause not, and Mr Bush went to war for the goodness of Humanity.

"Bush is a good man"-Jackie Malfoy.

That quote is gonna be immortalised if I even have to make it so myself.

-AC

Not if you go looking at it like that he did not!JM

Face it Bush like many (heck most) politicians only look out for themselves, to him the US is his own private monopoly board.

Who has benefited from this war Jackie? In order to go to war for the sake of humanity, Bush would have to be helping someone. So let me ask you, who has the war in Iraq helped?

He is helping someone us.He is not as selfish as you guys may think.I am not sure how how to answear this question I don't know who it has helped.
And again I am not with it or againt it.I have my own feelings towards it.But going on to blaming bush for the war is pointless.There is a war going on and there is nothering we can do about it.
Sure we can blame bush over and over again but what good is it?JM

Please read my posts above.So you can't forget it!No one could.What could you do about it?Have protesters or whatever?No it is going on and that is it.JM

"I am not sure how how to answear this question I don't know who it has helped."

Then pardon me for telling you to shut the Hell up and stop saying it has.

It removed Saddam from power. That is ALL. The only thing it helped was GW Senior's ego. Saddam was no threat to me.

No offence but isn't one of the pre-requisites of a weapons system like, the ability to actually arm yourself with, aim and use the thing? Coz Iraq cannot do any of these to us.

Funny how Jackie says George Bush is this man fighting for freedom and truth when he lied to the American public and the world then went out and said "We live in a nation with so many freedoms. Oh by the way, abortions and gay marriage are illegal now."

-AC

Even removing Saddam from power if of questionable use. He had done terrible things, true, but was of no threat to the world, only to his own people. Even then his policy's had softened significantly in recent years. in fact the UN sanctions were causing far more deaths then the Iraqi regime. If Bush was truly interested in making the world better he should have finished what was began in Afghanistan, a nation which, while recently celebrating democratic elections is never the less in a very dire way.

He is helping nobody except his own elite.
He is as selfish as we think.
I am sure you don't know how to answer this question because you appear to be remarkably ill-informed.
Blaming Bush for the war is pointless? Excuse me, but didn't he start the war?

Let me explain this to you as simply as possible:

Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. In all the footage of 9/11 directly afterwards, no mention is ever made of Iraq. Bush, in collaboration with a few select spokes people, then start mentioning Iraq in press releases, statements, etc. Suddenly, with no evidence whatsoever, Iraq starts to get the blame for 9/11!

Now, being of a suspicious mind, I usually blame one thing: Greed.
With politicians, it is usually a combination of two things: Power and money. First, it is quite possible that he was still angry with Iraq because "they attacked my daddy!" Second, oil will always be of primary concern to someone of Bush's background.

Let me give you a few facts about this "saint", Bush, that you are so quick to defend. He was an alcoholic when "God" started speaking to him. God" told" him that he was going to be the next president of the United States, so Bush became a reborn Christian, and has been playing that card for all he is worth ever since.

All this you can get from a documentary called "The World according to Bush", made by a great team of French journalists.

There is no denying that there are ties, very strong financial ties, between Bush's family and Osama bin Laden's family. If you still believe there are no ties between these two families, you are blind or a fool. Go and reward yourself with a couple of days' research, and your eyes will open.

Asking what good it will do to blame Bush for the war is enough to make me see red. Do you know that there was one senator, ONE SENATOR, who had the guts to stand up and question the decision to attack Iraq? This was an eighty-something old grandfather, who had nothing left to lose, who stood up in the senate and blasted everybody for being the unquestioning puppets of Bush that they are.

Did you know that when Bush was elected for the first time it was the closest the streets of America ever came to erupting in riots with a presidential election?

Stop defending somebody just because he is your president. Believe me, having grown up in South Africa under the apartheid regime, I have learned one very valuable lesson: ALWAYS question your leaders. They are usually corrupt, greedy, power-hungry elitists, who will go to any lengths to enrich themselves and their very small circle of elites. They will tell any lie if it will benefit themselves, and they rely on the gullibility and unquestioning obedience of the uninformed majority like yourselves to get away with it.

Take Nelson Mandela, locked up for 27 years because he was a "terrorist", the entire ANC, expelled from their own country, because they tried to stand up for basic homan rights, like equality and fairness and the right to be judges not on skin colour alone. These peple were seen as terrorists, animals, and war was declared on them, by the glorified leadersof our country, and their orders were carried out unquestioningly. Thousands of innocent people were slaughtered, tortured and held without trial.

Now, do you see the similarities between what is happening in Iraq and what happened in South Africa?

No I too know alot abot the war but that question was hard to answear at that time.Anyway what I meant by pointless is that you guys can complain all you want about it.
and also blame all you want but it is not going to do anything.The soilders are still in Iraq and Bush is still president.So complaining is not geting you anywhere.
That is what I meant.Btw I like your avator in your siggy!JM

Exactly, Bush is with us for four more comedy and destruction filled years, so smile, be happy that lovely bombs are falling on those evil babies!

I did not mean that kind of happy!lol!JM

No I too know alot about the war JM

Please give me you full and detailed opinion and knowledge about the war in Iraq, why you think the US is there, and the possible repercussions of this endeavour. You say you know alot, now is the time to back it up.

By the way, please reference the Petrodollars and the OPEC Euro question and how the states can never leave iraq now because Iran would love to get in there (and the Sunni majority probably would see them as liberators) in your answer. I await your response with giddy anticipation.

Oh yes, and JM, stop putting your initials after everything you say, your name appears right alongside your post. We know it's you.

I just want to say that I support American Troops and our allies for they are the ones that are actually out there experiencing this war Unfortunately and not us. They are the ones who really know what is happening and not us. We only know what we hear from the Media and some of the Media likes to really over do it.

Just my two cents...LOL

Thank you Aleera I could not had said it better myself!JM

I'm afraid you're on her blocklist now for asking too difficult questions

I support the soldiers to, and to a degree I feel sorry for them, as they are, as you say, the ones experiencing it, but I don't think they know a great deal more about why they are fighting then those of us relying on the media, as in most wars, especially ones fought for questionable and possibly illegal reasons, the soldiers are manipulated and used just like everyone else.

Has anyone ever caluculated how many wars there have been throughout recorded history? To narrow it down a bit, how many wars --world, civil, regional, guerilla, etc. -- have been waged from 1900 to the present? Does anyone out there have a tally? Unfortunately, war will always be with us -- including this godawful fiasco in Iraq. Remember what the famous philosopher Plato said: "Only the dead have seen the end of war." For an insight into war, I highly recommend two books from the Vietnam War: "A Rumor of War" by Philip Caputo and "Fortunate Son: The Healing of a Vietnam Vet" by Lewis B. Puller Jr. Puller, son of the famous WWII American hero Chesty Puller, came home from Vietnam without the use of his legs. He later committed suicide not long after the publication of his 1992 Pulitzer Prize-winning book. And although they have tried to keep it quiet, some of our returning wounded from Iraq have killed themselves out at Walter Reed Army Hospital. Ever wonder what the term "non-hostile gunshot wound" means, as reported in USA Today and elsewhere? It can inidicate either an accidental discharge or a suicide. More than two dozen soldiers and marines have killed themselves in Iraq since the war started. You'll never hear that from Bush or Cheney. See war for what it is...and leave the flag waving and patriotic songs for the Fourth of July. Thanks for reading this rather lengthy post.

*is only reading the thread to laugh at JM's posts*