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Woman Charged With Killing Baby in Texas


Tuesday November 23, 2004 4:16 AM



By LISA FALKENBERG

Associated Press Writer

PLANO, Texas (AP) - A woman with a history of postpartum depression told a 911 operator she had cut off the arms of her baby daughter, then waited calmly until police arrived, authorities said.

Authorities found Dena Schlosser, 35, and the fatally injured baby on Monday after the child's father called a day-care center and asked them to check on his wife and daughter in the Dallas suburb of Plano. Day-care workers called 911 and a 911 operator then phoned the mother.

The operator asked Schlosser if there was an emergency, according to 911 tapes obtained by Dallas-Fort Worth television station KDFW. Schlosser calmly responded: ``Yes.''

``Exactly what happened?'' the 911 operator asked.

``I cut her arms off,'' Schlosser replied, as the hymn ``He Touched Me'' played in the background.

Child-protection authorities said the mother had shown signs of postpartum depression in the past, but there had been no signs of violence.

Authorities said when they arrived at the family's apartment, they found the nearly 11-month-old baby in a bedroom with her arms severed. Schlosser, covered in blood, was sitting in her living room. The child died at a hospital.

It was not immediately clear what instrument was used to sever the baby's arms or why the baby's father asked the day-care center employees to check on his family.

Schlosser lived at the apartment with other family members, including her two older daughters. The girls, ages 6 and 9, were at school and their father was at work when police arrived, Duke said.

Texas Child Protective Services was called to the home in January after Schlosser was seen running down the street from her apartment, with one of her daughters, then 5, bicycling after her, authorities said. When police and CPS arrived, the child told them her mother had left her 6-day-old baby sister alone in the apartment.

Schlosser appeared at the time to be suffering from postpartum depression and seemed to be having a psychotic episode, said Marissa Gonzales, a CPS spokeswoman.

Schlosser was hospitalized for a few days. Her other two daughters were released to their father, who told authorities Schlosser had been acting strangely since the birth of the third child.

Once she was released from the hospital, Schlosser agreed to seek counseling and see a psychiatrist, Gonzales said. Caseworkers continued to visit the family through the spring and summer, and the case was closed Aug. 9.

``There were never any indications of violence with this family,'' Gonzales said. ``The children had always been healthy, happy and cared for.''

Gonzales said CPS was interviewing Schlosser's other children and would talk to the father before deciding whether to remove the children from the home.

No one answered the door Monday night at the family's apartment.

Neighbors said she seemed to be a loving, attentive mother.

Dena Livingston, 43, said she saw Schlosser making her rounds with the stroller on Sunday. She saw her Friday waiting with her baby outside the school the older girls attend. ``She didn't give off like she was in a distant world or didn't care about the baby,'' Livingston said.


That is unbelievable, sick, how could anyone doing that, especially after having 2 other kids.

why would you cut off your kids arms?

just like that other woman in Texas - who drowned (sp?) all her kids in the bathtub - including the 8 yr old - if I was 8 I would have ran out the door and down the street

That's really messed up. I feel bad for her other kids.

I hate it when things likr this happen.

how does anyone kill their kids- well Ive never been a parental unit (yet) so I dont know how stressful it would be

Not if you were struggling against an adult woman, you wouldn't.

"`I cut her arms off,' Schlosser replied, as the hymn 'He Touched Me' played in the background."

Why am I not surprised at this woman being Christian?

Oh jeebus

Are you telling me that if you were stressed out, you would cut your kid's arms off or drown them?

If I were 8 and a women tryed to drown me I'd beat her with a hammer and snap her neck

This is twisted and all, but i must say, it would really take some balls to cut off a babies arms.

Not if you were panicking, Slipknot, or if you didn't have a hammer. 8-year-olds are incredibly weak...

That, RR, or you'd have to be insane. Which do you think it was? Balls or insanity?

Yea it would be hard to cut a babies arms off, I can understand doing that to a grown person, but not a baby

She'll probably plead insanity...or get gassed...

Yeah, insane or not. It would still take some Bushman sized balls to cut off a babies arms. This woman had two children before, she obviously resisted the urge at hacking their limbs off. It takes a while to grow balls, in this case it took a third child. Like slip said, it wouldnt be that big a deal if it were an adult, but it was a baby. I mean, who hasnt cut off someone's arms before?

Yeah don't all Christian's cut their babies' arms off??

Honestly, that's the most ignorant, narrow-minded thing I've ever seen you post.

Some people make me sick...

why is it that the religious people always do these senseless things!!

the woman who drowned all of her kids in the bath tub was religious as well.... aghhhh

lets end religion

that's really bad....poor baby...i wonder what she used though?

That's stereotyping saying that all Christian people are killers. Muslims have killed thousands more of their own and others than other "religious" people, yet I hear nothing of them; Just Christian-bashing.

nail clippers

Man, that would suck really bad.

Are you talking about the clipper part, or the knife type part for cleaning under your fingernails?

nail clippers??

yea

that's even worse

I would hurt at first but then it would feel good

serious??

makes you sad and pretty pissed off

yea why wouldnt I be

What a disgusting waste of flesh.

Kiddos.
There are many religious people. There are many women who kill their children. There's an overlap. It's NOT causative.
Here's MY observations:
Religion is an aggravating circumstance ONLY. In Christian communities, there is a high value/emphasis placed on motherhood- so women who are struggling feel a lot of shame that they are not "good" women. They're too reluctant to expose themselves. When they do, it doesn't always lead to them getting the kind of help they need in a timely fashion. Their support network, in extended family and church, is strong, and strength does breed hubris. Spiritual awareness is considered THE transcendent force in life; and there's a bit too much of a tendancy to trust in its ability to guide a struggling person through a crisis.
Unfortunately, while this support network is wonderfully effective for many crisis, there's one it over-reaches with...and that's severe mental illness.
This woman was psychotic. In the words of one doctor, her actions, cutting off the arms, "...suggested a specialized thought process...," "...specialized psychotic thinking..." In other words, her thoughts and actions were specialized to fit her warped view of reality.
Her support network dropped the ball, screwed the pooch, just like that of Andrea Yates (who is intermittently in the news for suicide attempts, now that she is being treated for her mental illness in the prison system, and can appreciate what she did to her children, her husband, her extended family, her community, and herself while she was crazy).
O, and Yates knocked the eldest children unconscious first (I believe she employed a hammer) while they were sleeping, and drowned them first. She was in touch with reality sufficiently to know that they would suffer more otherwise. She was trying to help/save her children from Satan (who she heard bragging to her about how he would get their souls via the corrupting influence of modern life), not hurt them.
OK, kiddos?
Sleep well tonight.

Apologies for the mis-use of the phraise, "aggravating circumstance." I did not intend to imply that religious conviction should be taken into consideration during sentencing, as a factor that calls for harsher penalization! D@mn, I'm only just now on my second cup of coffee, you know. I should have said, "...has an aggravating effect only.."

Anyone trying to equate this with a persons Christianity or lack there of is extremely shortsighted and just trying to bait for an argument. nono

Its quite obvious this is the product of an extremely sick minded person, period.

LOL

LADY WHO CUT BABIES ARMS OFF WINS THE GOVERNORS MANSION!

Ok here I go again.Stupid computer not working this morning.Anyway that is horrible news.But it seens that it happens more and more now a days.
Which does not surprise me.But now it does not matter.JM

i heard about that last week on the radio...you wonder what goes through some peoples minds...

finti said it right....

"makes you sad and pretty pissed off"

when ever i hear of these stories...im terribly sad for the baby or children that were hurt...the ones who die and the siblings left behind who have to make since of it....*sighs sadly*

What? Are you deaf, or do you just choose to not hear the blatant racism against arabs and the slurs against Muslims everyday?

As for the topic, I don't find it unbelievable. I find it pretty sick and twisted, but not unbeliveable. More and more shit like this happens everyday, and I'm not surprised anymore.

When did I say all religious people cut their babies arms off? All I was saying was that I had noticed a parallel between devoutly religious people and violent crimes. I never said that all religious people kill people, nor did I say that all murderers are religious. But seriously, there was a guy a couple years ago near here who was a Jehovah's Witness and murdered his family. Aileen Wuornos was religious, if I'm not horribly mistaken... Hey, I could be wrong, but it does seem like a lot of violent crimes are commited by people who are religious in one form or another. Not to mention the nutjob Muslim extremists who kill hundreds or thousands of people.

NOTE: I am NOT saying that all religious people are murderers, terrorists, rapists, or anything of the sort and never was.

only in texas...

Honestly, I don't EQUATE this with Christianity.
I was trying to express that I don't feel that being involved in the Christian community is causative, but that sometimes it can complicate the process of finding appropriate help.

Further, of COURSE we're all noticing more incidents of this nature. That's primarily becuase we notice what the news media highlights for us, and it highlights events that involve hot-button issues, such as child murder and religion.

And, only in Texas...? I don't think so, buddy.

^Exactly what I was pointing out.

Me'h, let's go have another cup of joe.
Looky, I've noticed LOTS of non-religious and tepidly religious folk disseminating the stark horror and ugliness, too.

I completely agree. You can't pin such a sadistic act on the fact that she's a "Christian" (and i DEFINITELY use the term loosely).

Im talking about this forum.

Kiddo, it was not a sadistic act.
In my opinion, she's psychotic first, second, third, fourth... I could go on, but the other aspects of her which might manifest in her behavior would be WAY down any list I made.
She's not functioning in our reality. She's living in her own. Too bad for her children that her reality intercepts our physically. Too bad for her children that somebody didn't remove her from that house, and give her an environment in which she could do no harm to others.

Hey, don't mess with Texas!

If you do, they'll cut your arms off, apparently...

You have heard of the crusades, the inquisition, etc?

Did you know alot of those were Catholic based? The early Catholics were extremely abusive to society. Theres a difference in ancient Catholicism and Christianity.

You haven't been looking closley. I've seen dozens of instances where people bash Muslims here.

How can you so casually link modern Christianity and its role in our culture with ancient Christianity and its role in an ancient culture?
How do you then relate that to this specific case, which has so much to do with mental illness, and so little to do with religion?

What is the relevance of the Crusades and the Inquisition to one isolated, insane woman who identified as a Christian?

Oh God, don't get me started, or I'll demote you to Warrant Officer...

Medieval times, crazy goony people. The Muslims did the same thing. As soon as they became a religion, they went rampaging.

Exactly. There's no way you can use the Inquisition and the Crusades as a valid reason for "religious insanity."

Demotion! Demotion! Better yet, court martial that man.

Muahahahha!

Exactly, Mane. Too long ago to matter much. In the time when people rode horses, drew swords, and played croquet for fun...

Exactly, ??Mane??
How did I get myself on YOUR ignore list? Well, it must have been something fun...too bad I can't remember it.

Ragesremorse: takes balls to cut a baby's arms off, hmm how does that take balls?? Takes being nut case sounds to me like, or living in Texas J/k

Arachnoidfreak, you are right, it's not unbelievable, it is happening more and more in the world today. But it sure does freak me out every time I here about it. Its nuts, crazy!!!!

Just because someone says they are a Christian, does not mean they are, you can tell by someone's actions, attitude. I can tell you that I'm BLACK all I want, does it mean I am Black?? NO, you can tell by looking at me that I'm not, same as with a Christian, you can tell if someone if the real thing or not. How in the world this got into that, just cuz of the song that was playing in the back ground, and other nut case things that have involved someone proclaiming to be a Christian yet drowning, killing their kids...doesn't mean they are a Christian.
The lady sounds like a nut case to me.

....

Rex's list...
Don't remember doing a single NASTY thing to him...

Interesting. Can you be both delusional and a Christian? If you perceive only a varient, illogical image of the world, does this mean that you are also unable to conceptualize God in a valid way? Does insanity invalidate fervent faith in God?

Killing innocent children sounds like a nutcase to me, not a christain.

No. Not the same thing. Being black is something that is undeniable, it is your ethnic background and it is in your genetic makeup. Being Christian is a matter of personal belief. If she believed in Christian values and a Christian Bible and attended a Christian Church.... it might be safe to say she's a Christian. Obviously she isn't abiding by Christian rules and her actions can't be blamed on Christianity, but that doesn't mean when somebody who is a Christian loses it and kills their baby they aren't Christian. Religion is something you get to choose for yourself. And I don't believe there is any connection between her being religious and her cutting her baby's arms off.

according to the bible, your actions and attitude will tell if you are a christain or not. Just cuz someoe say they are, doesn't mean they are. Ok, I get what you are saying about me saying i'm black, bad example.

Yeah the Bible says your Christian witness should show in your actions. How could you be a true Christian if you cut your baby's arms off? You're not, because if you were a true Christian, you'd follow what the Bible says.

Yes, however, people suffer from mental illness/psychosis in which they KNOW they are doing the best/only thing.

Yeah, that too.

What does religion have to do with postpardem depression?

The woman is clearly insane.
I've heard the 911 tapes, she's was in a total trance.

She wont be executed. She'll spend the rest of her life in a mental institution.

I didn't say she was a saint, but religion is a matter of faith and belief, not behavior. It doesn't matter how much Christianity disagrees with her actions, if she believed in Christian philosophies and worshipped a Christian God, she is a Christian. Now she did not abide by Christianity's rule and obviously Christianity doesn't agree with her actions. But that doesn't matter.. all that matters in determining whether or not somebody is Christian is whether or not they worship a Christian God.

Example: Muslim extremists who terrorize people and blow up building's are still Muslims, whether they abide by Islam's rules or not. Islam is supposed to be a peaceful religion yet they kill in the name of Allah. Well, that's stupid of them but they are still Muslims because they still worship Allah.

I am by no means saying there is any connection between this woman's faith and her actions. You can't blame Christianity for her own sick actions. But when it comes down to it, anyone who worships a Christian God is Christian whether Christianity agrees with their actions or not.

Wrong! Yes it's about belief and faith, but it's also totally about behavior.

I agree with Tex (except that I think she's just as likely to end up in our penal system, with Yates), and I agree with AC.
You are Christian if you believe in Christian values, even if you sin or do massive harm while insane (which is possibly an absence of free will?).

I disagree. True Christianity expects a certain behavior in it's follower's, and those who don't abide with "go to hell," but in the long run the only factor that decides what religion you are is where you faith lands. If you have faith in God and believe in the teachings of Jesus you are a Christian, if you do not believe a god exists you are an Atheist. If the woman who committed the crime was in fact an Atheist you wouldn't see me saying "but she's not a real Atheist because we don't believe in that!"

What...the...f*ck?

Hey, I heard a similar case on the news, about some surgeon who had a really good reputation, and one of his patients needed an operation for his penis. This surgeon had a slight moment of insanity, and he cut it off completely
They showed this sh*t like 100 times on the news

What's wrong with these people ???

Yes, it's scary how a slight moment can have some major repercussions- however, somebody may not have been paying attention. It's hard to believe that he showed no signs.

You know whats weird?
Usually, suring surgery, surgeons have assistants and nurses
So, how could such a thing happen?

and once again a thread gets derailed with talk of religion

I'd like people to understand that she can be both insane and a Christian, both insane and a moral person, both insane and a human being...
I don't want people to have an effortless time dismissing her as "evil" and not a member of humanity, a fellow person to whom we are responsible.

um.. why does this have to be related to religion ?
Being insane doesn't necerairly mean you're evil . Insane ppl think what they do is right.
By the way, was she high or something?

Thank you, Mane, as I was about to respond in a not-as-kind manner. And, Fever Red, thank you for pointing out a central concept in psychology:

CORRELATION DOES NOT EQUAL CAUSATION.

Dont turn this thread into a religious thread, please we already have 1,000,000 of them

Nonono, you misunderstood my post. Go back and read the one I made on the second page.

Yes, I discussed her religion in response to 2 other approaches/perspectives:
A) She is not normal/moral/like us because she is really religious
B) She is not normal/moral/like us because she is not really religious

Both approaches seemed to be an attempt to distance her from the society of which she is a participating member, and excuse that society from responsibility for her.

My position: she is psychotic, but also she is "ours" and shares our humanity.

Let's all give a round of applause for psychotics. Without them, how boring would our evening news be?

More to the point, let's all give a round of applause to our ineffective public mental health system, and the hapless, clueless performance of most laypeople in response to mental illness. Without these factors, how would the lives of insane people amount to being newsworthy?

Hey we have abortion here in the usa.That is worst then what that woman did to her baby.I mean for starters abortion is like every second of the day and this happens not that very offen.
So I ask yuo what is worst?JM

AFro: you can believe in God, and not worship God. Those are 2 different things. I know lots of people that believe in God, but yet do not worship God, nor abide by the bible. Anyways....back on the topic
No where in the article does it say she was a christain, all it says it what song was playing in the back ground. Why would her husband ask them to call and check on her?? Sounds like he knew something was wrong with his wife, and if he did, why would he leave the baby w/his wife??

You have got to be kidding me.

Do I look like I kiding you?JM

Fine FE lets just end the religion discussion here. I think everyone knows that what she did had nothing to do with her choice of religion.

You think it's worse to kill an unborn embryo that won't even notice than to hack off a baby's arms and let it bleed to death? That's retarded. I'm sorry.. I don't usually call people names over the Internet.. but that's just plain stupid.

No that is not what I am saying.What I am saying is that people make a big deal out of something like this but does not say anything when it comes to abortions.That is what I am saying.JM

And you don't see the difference between this and abortion?

back on the topic: Why would her husband ask them to call and check on her?? Sounds like he knew something was wrong with his wife, and if he did, why would he leave the baby w/his wife??

I see a baby geting hurt and in an abortion a baby getting murdered.What do you think is the differnce between these two?JM

hmm the baby just didn't get hurt, the baby died!!! Big difference there, getting hurt and dying.

That is true too.Ok so Abortion and what happen to this baby is the same.So I wonder when people have abortions why don't they ever think of what happen with that woman and her baby?JM

Probably because people that get abortions, do not see it as killing the baby.

True but it is.Anyway I will talk to you abot this in the abortion thread if you want.We should be geting back to the topic like you said before.jm

I would like to know why the dad wanted them to call and check on his wife?? seems like he knew something was up to me, what do you think?

This incident and Abortion are nowhere near the same thing. That is the dumbest thing I've ever read. This kid had it's arm hacked off by it's own mother and slowly bled to death, and that's somehow the same as a doctor removing an embryo from the womb that doesn't feel a thing?

How do you know that it does not feel the same thing?You don't know that.Anyway if you wnat to talk to me about it please met me at the abortion part of this site.JM

Yes, it does sound like the father knew his wife was entering or had entered a psychotic state. He may have been hoping to address/handle this himself with the help of extended family.
They were Christians.
Both are aspects that echo the same factors in the Yates case. Yates' husband knew his wife was struggling. He had thought that it was best not to involve the system/relinquish her care to the system.
Again, I feel that such decisions are informed in part by over-reliance on a family/community support network, and because the Christian community invests so heavily in such a network, Christians are slightly more vulnerable to these tragedies.
That is the way in which I feel religion is relevant to the discussion.
However, secular humanist families certainly do make the same misjudgements.
Am I "disapointed" by the actions of this husband or Yates' husband? I'm certainly sad and regretful. So is Yates' husband. He has been nothing but supportive of his wife, and critical of himself. He now tries to raise awareness of mental health issues in his community. I think that's a wonderful thing to have come of a horrible thing- but I'm sure we ALL wish the horror had not occurred.
For healing and for a positive effect in others' lives, I hope this woman's husband also goes on to advance appropriate handling of mental health.

Excellent point. Hooray for the general treatment of the mentally ill!

Lol. The one thing I'm worried about with this is that soon EVERYONE who does something will be classified as having a mental disorder. Since, you know, all people are basically good, anyone who would do something not good must have something wrong in the head. I didn't kill him, my did!

M'eh, won't happen. They put YATES in the penal system. Heh, hehhh. We won't reliquish scapegoating anytime soon.
Besides, psychosis is much more, ah, profound than just any "disorder."
Psychosis is something Kasady hasn't got. Except for the red paint incident. That was psychosis.

There actually was (is?) an institution that had this philosophy. I can't remember exactly where, but it was in the book The God of Stones and Spiders (another fantastic read, by the way). A guy convicted of rape was to be "rehabilitated" by taking a woman employee to a movie.

They got halfway to the movie before he battered and killed her.

__It's an upsetting idea, and there ARE some laypeople and a few mental health professionals in our society who advocate that kind of approach to sexual predators- but a lot of that is, IMO, financially motivated. (private treatment is for-profit)
__Overall, we're unmoved by even the most extreme cases of mental illness, involving delusional states. We scapegoat the psychotic. Ironically, people whose mental illness is less pronounced, and whose crimes are often less "unthinkable" in our eyes, seem to get a closer, less reactive look.
__M'eh. Let's go drink more coffee. It tastes good, and it keeps you moving so fast that you register much less.

Nothing that happens in America shocks me. If it happened anywhere else in the world I'd be shocked.

Craziest country in the world.

We're catching up on the quality of our coffee, however.

I already heard this story

Fever Red, have you read a different article on this case that states they were christians? If so, could you plz post it here, because in the article I read it never said they were a christain family. The father must have wanted to involve someone for him to ask them to call h is wife, he must have had some concern to do that.

Well Yes i believe it knowing how daft some of the Americans are.

A woman sued a microwave company because her baby died while she was trying to dry it. she won the the case because the instructions did not specify what she should not put inside the microwave.

People can be so crazy and the lawyers that defend these cases, are just as bad.

If I cut my daughters arms off Id eat them.

Why?

Dont get me started on lawyers; knowing that a person has done wrong means nothing to them. True, everyone has a right to be defended, but defending someone who is really guilty of their crime or even trying to lessen their sentence is like spitting in the face of the law and saying **** u i get paid loads ! especially defending those child rapists, abusive priests , and woman battery. Give them a fair trial my ass ! stone them to death for being twisted and evil in their toughts and being.
And then we trust lawyers to run our countries as prime ministers and presidents for god knows what behind-the-scenes deals they do !

Yeah the system is messed up.

Somebody has to do it. You can't take away anyone's right to a fair trail, no matter how bad their crime.

TRUE:
A fair trial IS the right of every human being, but a fair punishment is also applicable in case of the subject being found guilty.

So, because it happened "a long time ago"...it didn't happen? Please. One religion is just as mind numbing in it's intent as the next. If you subscribe to them, then I have no doubt that you will use any argument you can. However, the fact remains, that it happened. You can pretend that Muslims are less advanced that Christians, now or then, but the truth remains.


And by all means, show me how Catholic doesn't equal Christian. OR! ow either (if you assume they are different) have "evolved"?


Besides, the evolution of a religion is simply evidence that it is a man made concept. God doesn't deal in things that are not absolute.

Instead of ending religion and all I say we build a time machine, and whenever things like this happen, we can go back in time with an automatic weapon and kill the wrong doer.

Yeah, because a time machine is just as plausible as religion.

__You have issues with religion.
__Fine, so do I.
__Is religion the only thing you see in looking at this event? Is this event somehow a continuation of the Crusades to you? Evidence that Christianity is homogenous and invariably gives rise to the cheapening of human life?
__If so, then you've made your contribution. You've fully expressed your perspective on this incident. Thank-you.

Oh no, religion isn't the only thing I look at. But, what is this woman going to use in her argument to the jury? I was depressed and god told me to do it? It's bull shit. God didn't tell her to do it. But, if you can get people to believe what you say, then it will work

Like Hitler said, the bigger the lie, the more people you can get to belive it.

Nooooo, God didn't tell Yates to do it...Yate's religion was part of her delusion; naturally, as it was a central part of her life.
We don't yet know if this woman heard the voice of "God" or "Satan," however, if she did, it will be presented as evidence of a delusionary state, not as evidence that her actions were mandated by God...
There will no doubt be other manifestations of her psychosis. The involvement of her religion in her delusions, I suppose, could be the only point of interest for some jury members...

Look, I respect a lot of your posts in many threads as being well-reasoned and informative and down-right clever, but here I feel that you are seriously constricting the range of this discussion.

You are right. I am. Everyone is allowed to become disillusioned. However, if you look at my post in regards to the post I was answering, then it makes a little more sense. Using things like the inquisition and crusades are relevant.


While they might be outmoded, they still exist as examples. To deny that would be like saying that the holocaust sholdn't be held against the Nazis. And while there should come a point where the past is forgotten, some things don't change.

This woman cut off her babies arms. To get her out of this situation, her lawyers will use every precedent in the book. And while she hasn't come out and said that God told her to do it, she will. I can almost assure you of that fact. I wish I was wrong. I wish I could still believe in God. But, life has taught me otherwise.

Or we could get her psychiatric help.

This woman is psychotic, very likely.
__That will be her defense- that in a delusional state, she believed that it was the right thing to do. The context in which it was right may involve religious delusions, sure. It could also have been her dead grandmother, a movie star, the aliens...it probably was God, but that doesn't mean religion caused this event. Psychosis has a physiological basis. It's inheritable, some forms- I think Schizophrenia is one disease that involves delusional states and is inheritable.
__Yes, religion can f~ck up people's lives and the way they relate to others. All kinds of philosophical systems can do that.
__And I'm NOT all, rah-rah, Christian community. I'm actually a bit especially critical of the way I see that community handle mental illness. I'm also critical of how our society as a whole handles mental illness.
__At a church in my city, a pastor held down an autistic child during a marathon "exorcism," and did so in such a brutal fashion that the child died, suffocated. I think he ended up convicted of murder. I recall being almost satisfied with the severity of the conviction. That guy wasn't psychotic. He was more than a little evil.
__In my city, more brutal things are done to children every day outside of the context of religion.
__I like to tell people I live inside a glass box in Ravencroft, untroubled by society's ugliness because I have no love for my fellow beings, and place no value on human life...but I only wish (no, but I wish I wished...well, no, but I wish I wished I wished). Nice escapism, however. Pick up a Kasady comic! It's quite like a vacation.
__One thing we can do to alleviate some suffering, is care about/for the mentally ill, and take responsibility for them.
__You see, we've got this thing, a social contract- and I've read the fine print.
__Kasady, on the other hand, wiped his @ss with it. Well, we all have freedom of choice.

That's beyond horrible.

Well, thats what I was going for with "evil."

Evil sounds so...puny in comparison. Something more descriptive is needed. Hmm...meh, I don't know.

How could you say that?

THats just sick

No, that was funny as hell. I'm not kidding, I laughed for hours over that one.

AFro cheese: you are correct everyone deserves a fair trial and everyone deserves to be defended.
FEVER RED: where have you read that this woman is a Christian????

Christian: means christ like (your actions, attitude) # Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.
# Relating to or derived from Jesus or Jesus teachings.
# Manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus; Christlike.
# Relating to or characteristic of Christianity or its adherents.
# Showing a loving concern for others; human
it doesn't mean Catholic, or pentecostal, of baptist, or Assemble of God, or Church of God, ect..... You can go to any of these churches and still be a Christian, but just becuz you attend one of these churches don't mean that you are. It's how you live your life. You can believe in God, and still not be a Christian.
If the woman says, God told her to do it, doesn't meant HE told her too. Thats not what a Christian is.

i felt really bad afterwards but the baby in the microwave one had me in stitches. i still laugh when i think bout it

How do you know that every other day of the year that woman didnt do all of the above? I mean i dont know that she did but she could have lived her life in a true christian fashion up until the point where she went mad! You cant claim shes not a christian because she did one act. you dont know what was going through her head or what happened that day exactly. At the same time i do agree that people cant assume shes christian just because she was playing a hymn in the background.

__I understand that it doesn't mean that God told her to do it, just because she heard him tell her to do it. It means she's psychotic.
__I believe psychotic humans ARE human, and I think they can be Christian, can "... belief in Jesus as Christ..." In fact, they can do all the things on that list. They can also fail, in our eyes, to do those things, while in their eyes they are accomplishing them. You see, they do not share our collective perception of reality. Their delusions are reality to them.
__I'm sorry, I'll try to find the article. I read it days ago, and as it is an early article, it may not be accurate. The next round of articles to come out will involve more details.
__The article did not state that she was psychotic during her actions, but it did state that she had shown past evidence of delusional states, had been hospitalized for them, and that her actions, in one Doctor's opinion, suggested a specialized thinking related to a psychotic delusion.
__Could be she's very in touch with reality as we know it.

EXCUSE ME?

Naybean: How do you know that every other day of the year that woman didnt do all of the above? I mean i dont know that she did but she could have lived her life in a true christian fashion up until the point where she went mad! You cant claim shes not a christian because she did one act. you dont know what was going through her head or what happened that day exactly. At the same time i do agree that people cant assume shes christian just because she was playing a hymn in the background.

For one thing, as you have pointed out here at the end of your post, we don't know if she was a christain. But I can say her actions, state otherwise, and going to church does NOT make you a christain. If they were christains why would the dad, not call the Pastor, Priest, friend in the church for help, someone from the church?? No, instead he ask the day care to call and check on his wife, odd that he did that. If he thought something was wrng, why didn't he stay w/her or call some family members.

maybe he was working to feed the family? You cant judge a persons entire life on one incident. Why would he call the priest if he thought the kids were at the daycare centre? surely that would be the sensible place to call first. What could the priest have done about it? almost nothing. If there were other incidents he should have got her councilling and stuff but healing the mentally ill is not something any priest i know can do. Maybe he didnt feel comfortable telling the priest. Everything you can say about this subject is circumstancial. Nothing is definate other than the fact that a woman cut off her kids arms.

Someone should have told that to Abraham. "Fear and Trembling" indeed.

So your basic theory is that Christians can do no wrong, and no matter how much somebody worships a Christian God they are not a Christian as soon as they commit a crime that God doesn't approve of? Because obviously if it was not for this woman's crime you would have no problem with us saying she is a Christian.

No, I am not saying that christains do NO wrong, NO one is perfect. But I have a hard time believing anyone was a christain if they cut of BOTH arms of their baby. I mean, don't ya think the baby was screaming at the 1st cut??
Naybean: you need the read the article on the 1st page. And yes it is all circumstancial.

chrisitans loose their marbles too from time to time or.......actually all the time just look at what they believe

So it depends on how bad the crime is to decide whether or not she can be a Christian? If that is the case, where is the line? Aren't all sins supposed to be forgivable? Where do you draw the line on how bad her crime could've been before you say "well she's not a christian because of that." I don't know if she was a Christian, cause the only thing I've read on this was the first post, but you also can't say she isn't a Christian just because she sinned. Being a Christian means believing in God and accepting Jesus, if she did both of those then she was a Christian whether she was crazy or not.

YOU be nice Finti!!!!

Don't feed the troll.


That is an urban legend.