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US soldiers would kill civilians, says Marine
By Andrew Buncombe in Washington
09 December 2004


A former US Marine has claimed that he saw American troops in Iraq routinely kill unarmed civilians, including women and children. He said he had also witnessed troops killing injured Iraqi insurgents.

Jimmy Massey, 33, a staff sergeant who served in Iraq before being honourably discharged after 12 years' service, said he had seen troops shooting civilians at road blocks and in the street. A code of silence, similar to that found in organised crime gangs, prevented troops from speaking about it.

"We were shooting up people as they got out of their cars trying to put their hands up," said Mr Massey. "I don't know if the Iraqis thought we were celebrating their new democracy. I do know that we killed innocent civilians." Mr Massey said US troops in Iraq were trained to believe that all Iraqis were potential terrorists. As a result, he had watched his colleagues open fire indiscriminately. In one 48-hour period, he estimated his unit killed more than 30 civilians in the Rashid district of southern Baghdad.

"I was never clear on who the enemy was," he explained. "If you have no enemy or you do not know who the enemy is, what are you doing there?" His claims were made during an immigration hearing in Toronto, Canada, to assess a claim for refugee status made by a former US soldier, Jeremy Hinzman. Mr Hinzman, 26, fled to Canada after refusing to go to Iraq with his colleagues in the 82nd Airborne Division based at Fort Bragg.

Mr Hinzman is seeking permission to remain in Canada with his wife and child and believes he will face a court martial if he returns to the US. "We were told that we would be going to Iraq to jack up some terrorists," he told the hearing.

"We were told it was a new kind of war, that these were evil people and they had to be dealt with." Mr Hinzman is among several American soldiers seeking refugee status in Canada, hoping the country's opposition to the war will help.

Some 30,000 to 50,000 Americans fled to Canada during the Vietnam War and settled there.

Oh please. I could say "I have a million dollars" would you belive it? Do you honestly think the soldiers just sit there and shoot people as they get out of thier cars? Come on give me a break.

I totally respect the soldiers for what they are doing, and fully support them. But if some soldiers are killing civlians, that's crossing the line. It's not like every soldier is doing this.

It's like Columbine--violence in schools has been declining, but one incident causes a massive uproar.

Well I guess every army in the history of the world has crossed the line. Since innocent civilians have been killed on purpose in every war.

If is true I admire the soldier for coming forward and telling the world, as it isn't something that should be hushed up. Granted it might be an isolated incident, but if true its an isolated incident that is costing a lot of innocent lives....

Happens in every war, there are always bad apples in every military force, not surprising at all. Hopefully the soldiers who commited the acts are brought to justice accordingly.

Exactly. The thing is to learn from it and see that justice is done.

I think because some times those people would start shooting at them.That is the only reason I could think of why they would do that.They are in the army and they must know somethig that we don't know.JM

yeah that army food sucks

We wouldn't be killing ANY civilians if we hadn't illegally invaded their country in the first place.


cornponious

Well, people are going to die in war. Soldiers, civilians, etc. But, ask yourself this question: If it was Iraqi soldiers killing civilians in the streets of America, would the Iraqi people care?

I'm not justifying the killings, the war, or our reasons for being there. I'm simply addressing the fact that civilians die in war. The fact that the American people are debating this issue and getting outraged in the first place is indicative of the freedoms we enjoy that most Iraqis don't. We went there to remove a dictator, and have become one in the process. I never really saw it playing out any other way myself. We were lied to to get us there, we were lied to once we were there, and we will have to stay there due to our own ignorance. It's funny. When you look back at American history, you see that we have learned more from our enemies than we have our friends.

All that aside, let's not forget that our "American" sensability is much different than that of the Iraqis. This is a war to them, more so than it is to us.

This thread is giving me flashbacks.....

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=314653&highlight=us+soldier+thugs

cat

Well, a lot of people go into the army thinking how cool it would be to shoot people. Most of the time when they accually get there they are scared out of their wits, but some people are accually serious and go and shoot whoever they want.

I'm hoping you disagree with this.

Would you mind explaining? Are you for/against? Or are you a cat?

Funny I was just thinking the same thing. Its nice to be proved right in the end.

thx for clearing ur post up by putting ur name at the end of it, because i seriously had absolutely no clue who had posted this until i read ur name... they really should make screen names on this forum that show up and can be seen...


oh wait...




but neway, its probably an isolated incident that people will blow out of proportion in an attempt to dig another hole in the war effort, however it is well known that the US military applies very rough justice because theyre pretty much just thugs in uniform

Yes, but did Iraq invade America? no. Did Iraq harm America in some unforgivable way? no. Iraqis want the U.S. troops out because they are invading their country, pushing them around, stealing their oil resources and placing officials or representatives in some sort of political power within Iraq. Whatever the Iraqis are doing to protect their country should not be called into question, especially by Americans supporting this second "Vietnam". I would do anything to keep myself and my country safe if the time came for it, and there would be no rules as such at what I'd be prepared to do if it was invaded for unjust reasons. Anyone supporting this war has no chance in even comprehending what the Iraqis are going through so don't even try and explain any excuses the soldiers are using for gunning down unarmed, innocent people.

Someone is going to say that they were involved in 9/11.

Who cares? Unless your a rug head, but even then, like i said, who cares? I can understand why American soldiers would say something like, they would kill Iraqi citizens. If you cant, then i cant understand that. Iraqi soldiers would kill American citizens, and they wouldnt even get war crimes charged on them. In time of war, i would wager that many soldiers on both sides of the fence would have a hatred built up against the people they are fighting, soldiers or citizens. It is just the luggage of war. You also have to take into consideration what the American troops go through with dealing with the Iraqi citizens.

They weren't?

"Iraqi soldiers would kill American citizens, and they wouldn't even get war crimes charged on them."

Not sure if that could be used as an actual defence, because really, Iraqi soldiers aren't in the position to be killing U.S citizens, and it is unlikely that they ever would be, however, there is no excuse for soldiers, under any conditions, to fire on people they know to be harmless and/or innocent. We don't live in a world were we accept "shoot first, ask questions later", and personally I think that is a good thing. I can understand that the soldiers might be stressed, that they see bad things, that they know fear, but its just as likely that the innocent civilians being "liberated" are in the same boat, and certainly don't deserve to be killed just because the other side is twitchy, or has some hatred of the people they are fighting.

I hope you're being sarcastic.

How are we sure they are lies? And it is not an attack on soldiers just because some people might be upset and angry that there are some bad eggs who are killing people that shouldn't be killed. We know civilians die in wars, and we know they shouldn't. It isn't "believing lies" to take notice of a claim that at least some soldiers might be willingly and with intent cutting down unarmed people, nor is it wrong that people should be angry that some soldiers act in such an unacceptable way.

Valid points.

All we're saying is, as said, the "rotten apples" of the force should be rooted out and punished for these actions. We are not saying every soldier does this!!!

And one more thing, about many people dying on 9/11, the deaths should stop there. Don't you think that's enough people killed? Revenge should NEVER make us kill more people, especially those who don't deserve it.

Very good point, MC Mike sums it up well. I am not knocking all soldiers, I know war isn't a game, I don't seek to damage the memory of people who die etc. Yes, I was against the war, but that is beside the point. Claims have been made, and they should be investigated, and if found true, the guilty party deserves to be punished. Do I believe everything on the news? No. I take it all with a grain of salt. However knowing what war is like means that I won't turn a blind eye when a soldier stands up and says "we have been doing wrong." I believe it is far more dangerous, and maybe even verging on ignorance, however, to say "Our soldiers are good and I refuse to believe that they may be committing war crimes", which is the same as blindly believing the news. The accusation in question has not been proven false, it needs to be investigated, and for the good of the US, the soldiers and the Iraqi people if it is proven true the wrong doers need to be punished.

so with the even if the reasons are wrong or not frase you basicly say that you would support US soldier regardless the reason they had for invading a country

Indeed.

Indeed. Support of soldiers is important, as they are often viewed badly, and can be misused, but don't go to far the other way. Don't proclaim loudly that they are above the law, just because they are soldiers, or that anything negative is a lie. If there is cause for an investigation then it should be looked into, and ultimately that will aid the soldiers more in the long run then blind faith in their goodness.

What a load of crap

I fear this war shall be seen like another Vietnam.

My father said the same thing that you just said. The press and people will draw their on conclusions thus causing mistrust in the military. If you look back in time or if you were there you know what I am talking about.

You know what REALLY disgusts me about the Vietnam war? (Actually, it's not even anything that directly deals with the war.) The fact that certain individuals look on "The Wall" and call it "The Wall of Shame". Yeah, it is really shameful for someone to give his or her life for his or her country. If you're so embarrassed of your countrymen, go live somewhere else, you ****ing ingrate.

I'm only 17 so I didn't live through Vietnam.. but I remember hearing about how when the soldiers got back from the war they were basically spit on and yelled at for being baby killers and all that.. that pissed me off.

People put stereotypes on anyone nowadays.

True, I think it was a bad thing, a terrible thing, that soldiers from Vietnam were treated in such a way. Australia was the "other" nation in that war, and the soldiers were abused or ignored for a long time afterwards. Why? Because the war was wrong, fought for all the long reasons, in the wrong way. IS that the fault of the soldier? No, but rather their governments, unless it was the soldier who did something atrocious- such as the massacre of a village. It is these acts that inadvertently tarnish all soldiers. It is unacceptable for people to say "War - accidents happen" in any circumstance. No it happens doesn't mean one has to accept it. It is even worse when people decide to ignore it completely. It is not disrespectful to want a person guilty of a crime to go to jail. Nor is it unpatriotic to want ones soldiers to uphold what a nation says it stands for. I say if a soldier betrays his nation by acting in a way that is both morally and criminally wrong, then he is far from deserving. And as to a previous post - yes, civilians die in wars, a terrible fact, still, it is slightly different to set out to kill innocents on purpose then them dieing accidentally. Yes, Sept 11 was terrible, but it had nothing at all to do with Iraq. If truth be known the majority of the hijackers came from Saudi Arabia, which is an American ally. Iraq had no reason to happen, it was not a threat to the US, or its neighbours, in fact on most political scales Israel and Iran are far more dangerous. And once again I emphasise, the articles to do with this claim do not say that the US soldiers had any excuse to kill the people in question. They were not, apparently, threatening the soldiers, it was said the soldiers willfully killed people they knew they had no reason to kill. This is a crime that can not be explained away with ease, and nor should it.