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For the most part, a lot of the games out now are visually stunning, with ALOMST ZERO depth or difficulty. Play a game like Silent Hill 2, and then go back to Legend of Zelda: Link to the Past. There is a world of difference in the toughness.

The better the graphics get, it seems the easier the games will be. Thoughts?

I don't think it's really to do with the graphics. Games have simply been made easier, because the makers want you to get through it quickly, and then buy the even worse sequel.

To be fair, let's compare two games from the same genre: RPGs, just because I said so.

Ancient RPG: Final Fantasy. That game can own you so many times right from the start that it's not even funny. That, and you have pretty much nothing to begin with, and Phoenix Downs were overpriced.

More recent RPG: Golden Sun I & II. In both of these games, I never really felt in danger of losing. No matter your level, enemies would always go down in just a couple of hits from the right spell. If you did somehow happen to end a battle with one of your team members actually dead, a Water of Life was easy enough to find, or buy, considering the cash flow into your pocket was like Niagra Falls.

The Original FF was tougher then anything in the world.

Lets contrast a little more.

Spider-Man & Venom in: Maximum Carnage

Impossible.

Spider-Man II

Beat it in about a week, playing an average of 3-4 hours a day. Granted doing the web-slinging and such was funner then anything else, and dropping people you save from high-rise buildings was funnier then all hell... but it was sooooo easy.

I would agree, but i think it's more a game-to game deal.

Ninja Gaiden was a tough damn game to beat.

Halo 2 on Legendary is nearly impossible to beat.

it all depends.

I think what's different in most games is that the "normal" difficulty isn't all that challenging.

X-Men Legends was easy on Normal

It may also depend on the actual series, and of course, on the difficulty settings. Zelda games are still wonderfully challenging at times.

The sad thing is, the Original Metroid is more difficult than Metroid Prime on Hard Mode. what is with that?

I think the companies that have been around longer (like tecmo, konami etc) know how to truely make the game hard, because they knew what it was like to work w/o fancy graphics... ninja gaiden is really fun, but boi let me tell ya.. I had to take a few time outs lol.. damn cheap rocket launchers! >_<

Oh, right ,Nintendo's not been around long AT ALL...

and tell me.. which of nintendo's games have been hard?.... *yawn*

not to mention that we're on the track of "extremely difficult" games.. the kind that you gotta go for 20 levels but you only get 1 continue and so on..

Resident Evil: Directors Cut was more difficult then Nemisis. But, Nemisis was a joke.

The hardest games ever are the original Nintendo games, no competition.

The hardest games I've played consist of: Devil May Cry-Dante Must Die! mode Ps2, Manhunt-Fetish or Hardcore, Metal Gear Solid on PSX-Extreme mode, Viewtiful Joe-any difficulty (Except Kids on Ps2), Resident Evil REmake on GCN-Hard mode, Resident Evil Zero for GCN-Hard Mode, also more I can't think of right now. Ninja Gaiden I've heard is hard to.

It seems with the Next-Generation consoles, they try to make the games compatable to new players and veteren players to a series, though it doesn't ALWAYS challenge the veterens, but that's why there's certain games out there that do.

No, Nemesis wasn't a joke. NOW It's a joke since everyone is used to it, but with Easy having alot of weapons, going straight to Hard without all those weapons was hell for many of us I'm sure. Director's Cut has nothing on the REmake, even though it's Hard mode was pretty grueling, Capcom sure didn't butcher that. I've also heard RE2 on DC/PC's Hard Mode is hell on wheels.

Zelda only challenges us the first time through, but that's why it's a great series regardless.

As I said, the original nintendo games are the hardest games ever made. Metroid Prime on Hard isn't even really a "Hard" mode, since the only difference is you do less damage, and enemies do double damage,t hat isn't really "Hard" mode. The original Metroid is a living legend, and a living nighmare for me that's for sure. Zelda 1&2 are legends as well, and 2 being ridiculously set-up is what makes it so hard, 1 is also hard to of course.

on NES: Castlevania series, Mega Man series, Zelda 1 & 2, Metal Gear 1 & 2, and that's only a few.

SNES: Star Wars, Star Wars: Empire Strikes Back, Return Of The Jedi (one of the hardest games ever made, which I squeaked by on Hard. I can't really name more on SNES, so I owned mostly games I could beat when I was younger, but they are there.

Very insightful, Pizzle my Nizzle. I never really thought of it that way. But, even so, that is why we have various difficulty settings. And some games Hard settings are still a walk in the park.



I do agree that original Nintendo games are the most challenging. The original Contra was tough as nails.

Well yes, that is what happens, but that is why they port games to other consoles with new difficulties and the such. What challenges gamers from Nintendo, and the consoles now, are extremely different obviously. The company's seem to try to make difficulties that are easy for new players, and unlockable harder difficulties to try to please the Veteren of the series. Though they don't always accomplish this right, and thus the Silent Hill & Resident Evil series come in. Horrific scares, and monsters, with JUST enough ammunition to take them down, and not afford killing sprees, you had to plan out what was fast enough to chase you and kill you, and kill it, and dodge the slow monsters. Resident Evil did this first, and Director's Cut elaborated on it even more. Trust me when I say that it isn't a far off estimate to say on Hard mode, there was/is only 6/42 shotgun shells in the ENTIRE game, and for Jill there was only 1 set of each kind of grenades. I'll tell you this, dodging the amount of hunters I had to leave alive, 3-4 is STILL a helluva lot to have to dodge and not be decapitated, just to have enough ammunition for the laboratory, was a living hell.

Silent Hill 1-4 has always done this from what I've heard, although for the Veterens it isn't as hard as it is for the first time they play through one of the games. Resident Evil 2 failed to do this, and 3 was CLOSER to the original with Nemesis, but not right there. CODE:Veronica tried with the limited handgun/bow bolts for Claire, but it didn't work perfectly.

Then the next-generation consoles were born, and thus came REmake and Zero. With Easy already being a challenge for us, we didn't think it would get much harder then that, but we were wrong. Real Survival mode being only set on Hard, which didn't link the item chests, and Invisible Enemy mode which is obvious, but one-helluva-challenge regardless. Hard was just like the original's Director's Cut Hard difficulty, except just put onto the GCN obviously. Zero's Hard was even more of a nightmare, but a stronger feeling of accomplishment when you beat it. Although strangely I had 06:06:06 when I beat Hard, which scared the hell out of me, but ironically my best grade yet in the game since I stopped soon after that.

That's just a few examples, feel free to add more.

And I won't discuss Devil May Cry, Metal Gear series, and Ninja Gaiden, but I tell you DMC's Dante Must Die! mode, took me atleast 2 months to complete, and Metal Gear Solid for PSX's Extreme took a long time to also complete. I don't know anything about Metal Gear 1 & 2 for NES, other then the plot, and Ninja Gaiden I'm clueless about.

You just have to know where to look for a difficult game though, they are out there and amazing, so we have to just look hard!

I was referring to this statement :



that means.. produced and developed by nintendo.. not just games that are 'on' the NES system (like the ones I mentioned.. Ninja gaiden and metal gear, etc)

Nintendo has alot of mascots for a company. Link, Mario, Samus, Fox, Kirby, and I'm sure there's plenty more. So alot of games are produced and made by nintendo on there consoles as well as other companies making them and putting them on the console.

Very true games these day are cake , compre new shooters, Good old Doom on nightmare and HL2 on Hard, HL truly pales now when it comes to toughness, how about this one, warcraft III on hard and old Red Alert on hard, red aleret is soo much harder

Command & Conquer is harder then Red Alert. For some reason though, I can't expect the Red Alert series to challenge me every year, sure I'll need to adjust to the new AI's tactics, of how fast they build, and what they build, but it's a Strategy game, it isn't meant to challenge gamers to the fullest. I can't go into details because I'm half awake, and lack the time before work, but if gamers have already established Gameplay over Graphics. Then I wonder, why do they spend so much time on the new graphics, and only make Hard/whatever the hardest mode is, "enemies do double damage" that's ALWAYS what it is, and they think it's a challenge, when it isn't at all. So I think we either need multiple difficulties, (ie Very Easy, Easy, Normal, Hard, Very Hard/Extreme/Super/Whatever) or there should be questions before you play the game like Metal Gear Solid 3. "Is this the first game you played in the series?"

If you pick "Yes" you get easy mode, like Resident Evil REmake kinda,
If you pick "No" you get Normal mode,
If you pick the other choice, you get Hard.

It's just an idea, but they seriously need to separate the boundaries of Easy and difficult games. They can't expect us to play the same, what, handful of difficult games to death? No, we always need something new to balance out the present and old.

That is just my opinion afterall...and my opinion at 9:30 am.

I mean look at Super Mario Bros. compared to Luigi's Mansion

Final Fantasy 1-3 (american) vs. Final Fantasy 9 (american)

Contrast OG game to now

Mario Bros. may of been one of the most vicious games I ever played.
I gave up on Final Fantasies after 10, way to long, but yeah I know what you mean. They can't seem to put good graphics and difficulty in the same package for some odd reason nowadays.

The very last mission on StarCraft: Brood War. I mean, I started yelling at the things on-screen. That is very frustrating.

goldeneye - 00agent setting in control. H-A-R-D.

i agree with newer games becoming easier. or maybe im just getting better. i got fable expecting at least 30 hours gameplay. i got 13 hours gameplay. too easy. the final boss? bah, i played against harder nymphs than that guy.

i just got the third age a few days ago, i played for 6 hours, 20% finished. i got through about 10% on normal difficulty (cause i didnt know how to change the difficulty) then changed it to hard. not much difference.

game developers need to understand that as time goes by, all those people who played games like goldeneye are getting older and need more challenges. crank up the difficulty i say! we all need a challenge! it increaeses the lifespan of a game.

No, Control was very easy, as long as you knew how to side-step and dodge properly. Aztec on 00-Agent was a nightmare.

I agree what you say about the lifespan. Your right, shooters are the prime choice for difficulty, action/adventure also. Viewtiful Joe 1 & 2 are fresh challenges on the Ps2 and GameCube, and GTA: SA is pretty rough at times, but do able. I suggest you all go out and buy Devil May Cry, and slap in the "Dante Must Die!" mode. I spent 2 months alone on Mundus 2, I went to GameFAQs, my player's guide, chat rooms, barnes & noble and looked at other guides, everything I could, and one day, I finally beat him. So it's all do able, just very difficult, atleast for DMC/VJ1 & 2.

jp, long time no see.
hey, i was 14 when i played control on 00agent!

first person shooters are the easiest to increase difficulty, just add in extra guys with bigger guns. rpgs, action, adventure are all the same. i was doing about 700hp damage to the guys in the third age on normal, switched it to hard, and i was doing 1000hp damage.

perhaps game developers think the difficulty setting is meant for the npcs, not for the player?

it's kinda a double standard.

You see a lower difficulty rate on certain games. like the zelda series, and the more franchised games.

then you see a FREAKING HUGE SPIKE in difficulty in others(viewtiful joe 1&2, ninja gaiden, ace combat 5, Halo 2 legendary ect I swear those games gave me blisters)

Maybe Im just not a very good gamer then, because, for the most part, games have a good level of difficulty, I usually play on normal.

It's a shame but I have agree with the majority here. Games have been getting easier. I recently borrowed my cousins SNES and a lot of games became really challenging as I played. Then I went and played a couple of my PS2 games and crushed them. It's really annoying that veteren gamers should have to look so hard for a challenge.

Yeah, long time Mist.

I was 10-11 years old when I played every mission of Goldeneye, my entire neighborhood was into it, we were our own strategy guides, and had to help eachother.

You can't expect a huge challenge in Strategy games like Third Age, Red Alert etc. If they want to make them effectively harder on harder difficulties: You do less damage, enemies have more/double health, do more/double damage, and are smarter. That's how they should do it for Strategy games. Adventure games are not all the same, Gameplay>Graphics of course, so that's why they aren't always the same, along with hundreds of other reasons to separate one Adventure game from another.

It isn't that your not a good gamer, it's that your probably not a "casual gamer." Anyone who can beat Ninja Gaiden, Viewtiful Joe 1 & 2, Devil May Cry, etc, is someone who's been playing for at the very least, a decade depending on their age. Most/all of us spent our youth getting our asses kicked by Nintendo games, began to beat games with the SNES/Genesis, and now are realizing how easy these games are, even on Normal/Hard/whatever difficulty.

Initially I've been gaming for 15 years, and I'm 18 1/2 come January. I played Zelda 1 when I was 3, ad was getting killed left and right. Then I got an NES when I was 4, and spent a few years being killed in Mario games and the such. Then I got SNES, and DKC 2 & 3, Super Metroid, Super Mario RPG, Super Mario World, Mario All-Stars, etc. and beat those games, along with the Mario trilogy on Nintendo when I was 8-9. Then Genesis, etc. So I'm someone who's been playing games for a decade and a half. That's basically what a casual gamer is, using myself an an example. Later on, I would also go back to SNES, and beat the Star Wars trilogy on Jedi mode, (Yes, it IS possible, I had no health left in my lightsaber when I beat Return Of the Jedi), and yes, Return of the Jedi is ruled to be one of the hardest SNES games ever made, so if you want a challenge, grab that trilogy and the such.

I'd have to agree with ya. Games have got alot easier to complete. There are a few games tho like metal gear solid that does have the odd hard section. but when thats over you can easily do it.

but most of the new recent games like knights of the old republic 2, i havn't had ne problem with that so fare. thats why i have a snes and megadrive emulator on my home PC, because theres nothing like going back to the retro style games that are a challenge!

You mean MGS1 on PSX, not The Twin Snakes on GCN. That is a clear proof of a remake gone EASY. I hated MGS2 so ridiculously much, and barely survived the RAYs on Extreme. All in all though, I beat it on Extreme in 3 days, since all I did was tranqulize the right guards and kept moving, then just used the HF blade at the end to deflect bullets while Snake shot the guards in the shoot-out. Then during the RAYs...I was just lucky that one run I guess. The choking had me a bit, but not much.

I haven't played MGS3 on Extreme yet, but reviews say it's still pretty easy, once you know what to do pretty well obviously.

I thought I was going to be alone in this argument. *phew*

It's not as thought the games are not fun... they just have no longevity. I played KoToR through 4 times (Evil and Good girl, Evil and Good guy) ... so what else is left?

... good marketing, I suppose.

It's not "length" it's "replay value" you mean. These games only have replay value if their a ridiculous type of fun.

That is what I meant by longevity, Pizzy.

Just being technical here. Some of the harder games still have replay to, you beat the hardest difficulty once or twice, THEN go BACK to Normal.

On the 11th, I'll be getting Resident Evil 4 due to my pre-order from EBgames. We will see if the last entry of the GameCube's ORIGINALLY-EXCLUSIVE trilogy, is as furfilling, and difficult as REmake, and Zero. After 3 long years of waiting.

could it just be that you're getting older, and the dated games just seemed harder?

No trust me, those nintendo games are absolutely hair-tearingly difficult. I don't know anyone who can beat Mario Bros. 1, without skipping atleast 1 world because it's so damn hard. The extremely difficult newer games are a shock, and by the time you beat them, your adjusted to the difficulty, but then you find one of these simple games, forget the skills you had for the difficult game due to how easy it is, and your screwed basically.

"I don't know anyone who can beat Mario Bros. 1"

I pulled it off from start to finish when I was six. It was the first videogame I ever had. That's probably why I OWN at every other game today.

Kids today have such easy games to play. It's about time someone removed the "easy" option from games altogether.

Anyone else played Call of Duty on PC? One of the few games I have ever completed without any form of cheating/getting bored and coming back months later.

It's easy. Even on the hardest difficulty setting, its fairly easy to outwit your opponents.

However, it has an amazing online multiplayer IMHO. I have played it for soo long, and the only reason I'm not playing it now is because UT2004 has distracted me.

Speaking of UT2004, even on the easiest mode I find the Mothership Assualt and Clanlord 1v1 on the single player very hard. Though I would put that at least partly down to AI levels I.E. the Clanlord is insanely good, while your team members are incredibly stupid, and follow you like sheep on any command with the exception of Search and Destroy

Ocarina of Time is a great game as well, because it takes so long to complete that when you do finish you get quite a sense of acheivment. I'm yet to find a better RPG that doesn't involve levels, although I am free to suggestions.

I would still vote Unreal Tournament 2004 the best game of 2004.

Never played Call Of Duty, and I perfur Unreal Tournament over 2004, but it's still good.

OoT really isn't THAT long, although it IS an RPG of course, but yes, it is an incredible game. Too bad Wind Waker wasn't as incredible.

So, like I said, in 5 days I will have Resident Evil 4, and we will see if Capcom screwed it up, like Viewtiful Joe 2, and CODE:Veronica X, or succeeded in full, like the original trilogy, REmake, and Zero.

OoT probably seemed longer, because it is one of the few games I ahve completed.

SPLINTER CELL! Now that is a insanely crazy game. Some guy sees you, mission's over. CRAZY!

OoT had more gameplay toward the story, Wind Waker had 100+ some odd chests hidden in the ocean, and that's stupid to waste people's time like that.

The new Zelda game:Minish Cap, is pulling this crap to, 5 dungeons! Is Nintendo kidding? Zelda on NES and Game Boy had more! Zelda on NES had 9, and on Game Boy they had 8. In OoT there was 11, 11 1/2 depending on how you count "Bottom Of The Well". I don't know what Nintendo is trying to pull off with 5 dungeons, but that isn't enough at all. LTTP had 3 in the "Prologue", Hyrule Castle after the Master Sword, 8 in the Dark World, and Ganon's Castle, INCREDIBLE game, I don't think any of the other Zeldas can screw with LTTP and OoT as some of the best.games.ever.!

Sure, Zelda's dungeons are more puzzle based, but that is no excuse for any less then 8 dungeons per game. I'm sure every Zelda fan here can agree with me.

Finished CoD idd nice game very appealing didn't get boring once.
Didn't get my hands on UT 2004 yet tho (too expensive still)

I believe that the difficulty of games is way too easy. Especially on RPG games...Even on the hardest level the AI can only do so much...

Take SSBM for example, on a level 9 basis I can easily whoop two at a time with no items using Marth...

Yes but its hard to make the AI the hardest it possibly can without being Impossible (because the actual difficulty is decided based on how stupid the developer has made the AI.. such as not blocking on purpose when you throw a punch or an item) Also, for most games back then, you got hit once you died, whereas today you have like a 15 or 20 segment life meter that keeps you in the action. The "Continue" system is also another factor.. older games you got 1 to 3 lives then the game started over.. today you can basically continue as much as you want, voiding the want to perfect ones style.

The only games that I can possibly think of that are hard are DOA3 on it's hardest level in survival mode. Especially hayabusa using that Izuna drop/counter which took half your life away...

That's why you play online where you play other people who are not designed and make their own desicions to base movements and actions. Then you just have to hope they don't cheat to have to win.

Like ****ing halo 2 when I was waiting for someone to invite me I played a head to head and went against this level 22 who had to use the standby glitch to cheat becausse I was owning him 8-O. That pisses me off. Then at the end he turned off the standby off and said I was owned!

The only reason why I didn'tleave was because that drops your level faster...

Yeah...so anyways...play online..some people online when not cheating are harder than the AI is...

Remeber the event match "Seven Years"? I took my anger out on a very battered cardboard box then.
Link vs Young Link.

CoD would have gotten boring a year ago if it wern't for the MP, which I still play occasionally

Well I just downloaded an emulator for SNES, time to kick some ass in Mario!

I took Star Wars; Knights of the Old Republic II to school on Hard.

I played CSI on the hardest difficulty and kicked its ass.

I almost fell asleep playing MK: Deception on hard.

I... there has been nothing to challenge my superior gaming skills.

Thats bullcrap 2D games are much easier. Play donald duck on the master system and you can beat it in less than 2 hours, try playing metal gear solid 2 on european extreme mode all the way through and you won't complete it for weeks (if not at all).

nope the 2D games are harder, only really hard 3D games I've tried is the old ID games on the very hardest level

Man, you guys should have lived through the old Spectrum/Commodore days... in the days where there was very ltitle TO games, they were made difficult beyond belief and sanity to increase play time.

Lords of Midnight (1985) was the threshold when games started to work as games (it is also where my avvy is from).

Someone mentioned playing Doom on Nightmare...haha, do I remember doing that...that was HARD. But still a great deal of fun Scared the hell out of me, though...I was like 8 years old when I played that game. It gave me nightmares. Heh.

There was some old NES game which the name of escapes me right now...but I remember not even being able to get past the first level. Of course, I was 5 when I played it, but I remember it being so hard that I doubt I'd be able to get very far in it now.

And I still pull out my NES and play the original Zelda or Dragon Warrior (first video game I ever played, I still play my original file that was started when I was 3 years old) when I want a challenge.

Thats what I am talking about. Contra (NES) is insanely hard. Even Contra III: The Alien Wars is harder then a lot of the games out now.



See? Even the lucious Lana knows the score. hug

NES is still late in the day to be called the most difficult. The pre-console days had those.

NES is the oldest thing I own...I still have the one that my dad got for Christmas just before I turned three. The thing still works, too, as do all my old games.

Well, we kicked off with an old Atari 2600 console in about... 1979. Err, not old at the TIME, of course...

You couldn't really quantify the difficulty of games at that time because they weren't sophisticated enough, though some tried harder than others.

Like I say, come the Spectrum/Commodare days, games of ridiculous hardness to i crease play length came. By the NES came onto the scene, gaming was entering a epriod of sophistication on all systems which led to be move up to 16 bit gaming which really established games as we know them today.