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I was talking to my musician friend, who, being an obvious expert of music through his ability to play the guitar, he said that John WIlliams was a hack.

"Hack?" I said. That was mostly due to teh fcat that I wanted clarification of the meaning of teh word.

"Yeah. All of his musical scores are nearly identical...with the exception of Amistad. Man, that was really weird."

I thought and throught. Sure, his songs define movies like Indiana Jones, Jaws, and Star Wars, along with Juriassic Park, and many others, but even though they're amazing, they;re all really similar.

Why should we let this hack write another score that's just like every other score? I hear he's actually going to recycle mucis from teh originals. Pish. Man, we need some new talent in there.

I suggest that we use either Ice-T or bongo legend Pancho Sanchez. Imagine the possibilities!

... yeah. let's imagine how bad it is...

The main Star Wars theme may be very Williams style- especially compared to Superman- but this is the man who gave us the Imperial March and Duel of the Fates. Begone with your criticisms!

It was actually supposed to be satirical. I love John Williams. I guess i'm the only guy who ever met anyone who said, "Star wars was good, but I wish it has some rock in it!!!11one"

Why post something that you don't mean? I mean God you had me going there. Tell your friend that I said HE is a HACK WANNA BE. If JW is that good and a hack I would like to see someone that HAS musical talent. JW writes for the scene, every thing in the movie has to sound like Star Wars. Rock would only destroy GL's original vision.

If being able to play a guitar makes one an expert musician, then we've got Juliard candidates in Junior High's all over the country.

Ask your friend if he saw HP and the POA. My wife and I weren't sure if it was Williams, but it was, and it was brilliant.

I am not very familiar with John Williams music, but I love the theme from Schindler's list. I've only heard two of his music and both of them start on a fith

Williams did score all the of the HP movies.

I think this musician friend must be a failed one and gelous of other people's talent.

Did he? Hedwig's theme is quite good

This is a complete loss of time... nevertheless, I'm gonna answer...
Don't you have your own opinion about John Williams, that you need the opinion of your so full-of-music-knowledge friend of yours?
Do you really think that all J. Williams's scores sounds the same way? Then... I think you should clean your ears from time to time...
Moreover, don't you think that a composer with 5 oscars and 42 nominations may be good, apart, of course, of well considered?
This is a complete loss of time...

ups!, I nearly forget the 17 Grammys, three Golden Globes, two Emmys and five BAFTA Awards from the British Academy of Film and Television Arts that he also possess...

who are we????

yeah, thanks for the pointless thread.
can we fire you?

yeah, but imagine the glory of "a long time ago etc...." *pause* - and then ace of spades by motorhead as the words star wars burst onto the screen....

awesome!!!....

seriously though, i want these films to be a slavish remake of the originals so williams is in for me without a second thought, whether he's a past-his-prime hack or not.....

and the original thread was meant to be an ironic joke, in case anyo9ne missed it....

love the yoda sig thing PVS....

I suggest you hunt down a copy of Rage Against the Machines and Leviathan playing versions of Imperial March then, as I have...

at the expense of bending this thread till it breaks...
the HP3 score was very good and a dark and tragic departure from the previous two films
(back to subject matter)
each one of Williams scores for the SW films has given us more themes, as previous stated by others, Duel of the Fates, Imperial March et-al and I'm really looking forward to hear what JW will conjure up for RotS.

I think that if your guitar playing friend, who is a music expert, thinks that he can do a better or more original job, then he should get together with his little garage band friends, and try to come up with a score for any SW movie, submit it to LFL, and see what they, along with the countless number of fans, think about it.

And not to get personal, but i really want to know....do you have dyslexia? cause in every sentence you write, you have backwards words. And before i make fun of you, I'd like to know if you have a condition or if you just really don't know english that well.

LEXDYSIA? john williams is a genius. star wars wouldve been a crap movie if it wasnt a JW score. in fact that score is the main reason why i wanted to be a musician (along with elton john) its been my goal for six years to be a film scorer. so NOW i universaly say to john williams: thank you for your beautiful music, it is inspiring and wonderful.

that is just speculation, we dont know how it would have been with a different score

HP POA was brilliant. Almost totally differ from the previous 2 Hp. Cauron seemed to have a hand in what type of new sounds he wanted to use compared to the first 2.

Did anyone notice that there was an electric guitar being played during the chase on Coruscant in the AOTC soundtrack, But why change his style of music???!!! i completley agree with JJ1138, rock or anything else for that matter would destroy GL's original vision. JAWS is reconised by millions. ET is reconised by millions. Star Wars, Indiana Jones, Harry Potter, AI, Shindlers List, i could go on for ever! the man is a legend in his line of work. Why change something that has been heard and loved from so many people?

"that is just speculation, we dont know how it would have been with a different score"

youre right, but i really honestly think that the movie would be looked at completely differently

Star Wars does not exist without John Williams. The plot, characters & efects are great but only truly come together to form a masterpeice once JW score is put in.

That said, I do think the guy is getting lazy. If you really listen to the HP score, it has SW overtones all the way thru. The main theme as they arrive at Hogwarts in 1&2 sounds almost identical to the imperial theme, and the strings in the quidditch match in COS when Harry & Draco are under the bleachers sounds exactly like the Zam chase scene.

But that is my being cricial of HP ... NOT SW. Star Wars would not anywhere near as memorable without Williams and I cant wait to hear what variation of the Duel of the Fates he comes up with for ROTS.

That, and Jaws are my favoriet JW scores.

Proof that people really don't understand sarcasm.

I have crappy typing skills.

john williams is an integral part of SW. His music helps stretch the movie into an epic. While I appreciate all kinds of music, I feel rock would only diminish the star wars experience. As for his other stuff, well it is rather ordinary compared to SW

You know that the influx of newbie threads are getting to the rest of us when we actually take the opening statement of this thread serisouly.. I have to admit I was all ready for a massive rant on the subject

Now I've been a musician for over 20 years and taught quite a few people in my time to play and know theory etc. It doesn't mean that I am qualified to call John Williams a hack! I defy any composer when up against a deadline to produce the quality of work JW does. The man knows his shit! Now imagine what he could have done if he could've taken his time with the score. (ie if lucas was willing to put it on the shelf till williams was finished). Yeah it would never happen, But the quality of the score would be better still. Mainly because 'deadlines' and pressure are not condusive to the creative thought process.
People... we really need to calm down the 'brain dead' threads of late

Wayne...

"duck season...!" - BUGS BUNNY
"rabbit season...!" - DAFFY DUCK
"duck season...!" - BUGS BUNNY
"rabbit season...!" - DAFFY DUCK

"........NEWBIE SHOOTING SEASON!!!" - TOGETHER

Wow, being an expert guitar player(execpt maybe a few) doesnt mean you can call Williams a hack. I have been a professional concert cellist for years and I can tell you otherwise. When you analyse his music, it does hark back to composers such as Stravinsky, Holst, and Mahler, but is has its own "williams style feeling."


statement
1. His music sounds the same

answer: ever heard of chopin or beethoven. any serious musician can can tell you that all thier works sound similar. What about bach, or handel??? Surely because there works sound similar doesnt mean they are hacks too.

Williams has his own style, but seriously, could you or your friend compose such intricate works such as Williams, on a constant basis?

HA HA HA HA HA!!! PVS, YOU SLAY ME!

This is all valid and I agree with it. I wasn't taking a strike at Williams. People would do well to read my second post. I don't have a friend. The friend part was a blatant joke. His opinion clearly would not matter in a real-life situation.

OK, was your "friend" being sarcastic? No. Was i dissing you? No. I was saying if he thinks he's an expert, then him and his friends should try to do better. I do very much understand sarcasm, in fact i live by it. But nothing you said in regards to your "friend" came across sarcastic.

So how do i not understand sarcasm? I understood exactly what you and your "friend" were saying, and i responded accordingly.

Now, If anyone other that JW did the SW score, yes we may have liked it, but i think we all agree that altering anything that JW has done would be more than detrimental to the musical legacy he set before us. Had we never heard what he composed, then of course something beneath that standard that he set, may have been acceptable. Also, being that i am VERY much into music and writing lyrics, i know how hard it is to come up with completely original material every time you try write. Thats evident when you listen to artist's 3rd and 4th albums......shit gets hard to come up with. And besides laziness, some people may just have a style that they lean towards when they create something, which is why certain scores sound alike. I am very satisfied with what we have heard, and look forward to whats in store for ROTS.

and btw...no diss about the typing thing...but there is a spellcheck on here.

I belive That John is in my opinion one of the most talented people on the face of the earth and to say that he needs to be fired is simply showing the fact that you are RETARTED!!!

Very true... and personally I don't really feel like changing it

This just shows the fact that you didn't read the third post!!

In all honesty, I think that Danny Elfman is a more original composer, but I still love John Williams.

The sarcasm was in the fact that I have no friend(not in a pathetic way, mind you) and I was emulating the opinion of stupid people that I know. I thought that it would be far more clear, but obviously I have failed as a writer. I can see the confusion, now. Sorry bout that.

ok...its cool. But youre right...that wasnt clear at all, at least to me. But you have to agree that with the title of your thread and the post you wrote, irregardless of your 3rd post....it sounds like youre bashng JW. But since you cleared it up....we're all good....but can we please get this thread closed?

Generally, when someone includes blatant, un-missable sarcasm into the first sentence of a post, it follows that they're not being very serious, and shouldn't be taken literally.

John Williams is how do you say...... brilliant. He is a thematic song writer for movie scores... not nsync or metallica. He writes for movie action and themes. He's so good at it that it scares most people.

You wanna talk about hacks check out Danny Elfman he doesn't even do his own orchestration he barely even writes his own themes. But he's got a helluva team workin for him.

Besides Williams work on the original Star Wars trilogy I find most of his work rather dull

JW is a great composer.

and what do you mean 'WE' should fire him.

WE dont employ him

he neither gets employed ; he gets contracted

WE are.......................

This is a matter of opinion not fact. You probably do not like orchestra music.

Rather dull??? ummm Jurrasic park, Indiana jones, Harry potter, & Jaws

JW's is one of the most talent songwriters in the history of the human race I don't even know why this has to be discussed no one can deny the fact that without JW all the music in star wars would have been good instead of the astounding piece of work it is

"You wanna talk about hacks check out Danny Elfman he doesn't even do his own orchestration he barely even writes his own themes. But he's got a helluva team workin for him."

...and hanz zimmer is one of them as well. he made film scoring into an assembly line with his 'team' of film scorers, its all just one big maketing ploy with him.

(i like your sig shinobi, reminds me of myself )

Deliver Us - Prince of egypt
The Battle - Gladiator

OK,
I'll take a production line tune any day

BTW
film scores today are the prime patrons for commissioning original classical music, and unfortunately, there are very few other supporters.

"Deliver Us - Prince of egypt
The Battle - Gladiator"

those were before his assembly line days....recently all of his music has basically been recycled over and over because he doesnt write his music anymore, his team does then he approves if its good or not.

I do like orchestra music or classical music as the correct term for it is, I just find most of JW`s work boring.

he is a composer not a songwriter

yeah I find them dull, all of them.

Dude, John William's scores are not the same...you call Indiana Jones, Star Wars, Jaws, Harry Potter, etc, etc, etc all sounding the same...you've got a problem. He's one of the best composers out there. He's come up with some of the most original and classic scores out there. Period.

"I was talking to my musician friend, who, being an obvious expert of music through his ability to play the guitar, he said that John WIlliams was a hack.

"Hack?" I said. That was mostly due to teh fcat that I wanted clarification of the meaning of teh word.

"Yeah. All of his musical scores are nearly identical...with the exception of Amistad. Man, that was really weird."

I thought and throught. Sure, his songs define movies like Indiana Jones, Jaws, and Star Wars, along with Juriassic Park, and many others, but even though they're amazing, they;re all really similar.

Why should we let this hack write another score that's just like every other score? I hear he's actually going to recycle mucis from teh originals. Pish. Man, we need some new talent in there.

I suggest that we use either Ice-T or bongo legend Pancho Sanchez. Imagine the possibilities!"

"he is a composer not a songwriter"

what do composers write? music. what is a bunch of musical pieces put together? songs

composer=songwriter

look in the damn thesaurus

****

Composer souds more sophisticated.

Someone needs to throw that together real quick!

I've played guitar for 14 years, so i'm just a know it all when it comes to music! Lemmy rules!!!!!!!

strangely enough, thats really similar to a theme from POTC.

not to mention Hans Zimmer

ALL of the music in POTC is almost exactly the same as the entire gladiator soundtrack

good ear GCG!

there is a valid reason.........

...for what?

a song is a poetical composition either with or without musical instruments. So musical pieces put together is a musical composition.Songs can be one sort of musical composition but not a
John Williams is regarded as a composer and conducter, if JW has lyrics to some of his music then in those pieces he can be regarded as songwriter.

stab your friend with an ice pick cause he's a idiot. jw has great music.

the friend is entitled to his/hers opinion, doesnt make the friend an idiot just because JW`s music doesnt appeal to him/her.

Composer is the term that covers everyone who makes music so a songwriter is indeed a composer.
A composer doesnt necessarily mean a songwriter though

i admit i only listen to hip hop but john williams music is great. that forrbiden love theme is a great theme he did by far from duel of the fates.

I only like JW's work on the original trilogy, never cared for his work on the prequel movies

Ok, look. In reference to the only thing in this thread that made me speak up before, I had ROTJ in my DVD player just now, so I got my Ace Of Spades mp3 ready, turned the TV down, and hit it right when the SW logo came on screen. I tell ya what, that was f*cking awesome! The "Episode VI" came up right before the verse started, and as the scroll started fading away, the breakdown of the song came. Then, if you let it go even longer, you get "AND DON'T FORGET THE JOOOKERRRR!" when the Death Star II is revealed! Kick ass!

Still, JW rules and I wouldn't have him do anything different and I wouldn't have anybody else do a SW score. But this was just great fun! LEMMY!!!!!!

he he Lemmy doed Star Wars guess it is a whole lot better than debbie does Dallas

"a song is a poetical composition "

song=composition, right. songwriter, composer same thing

and i think that the way you were describinga songwriter made it sound more like a lyracist

Give OutKast the job!

Look in the interest of ending this pointless fight Let's look at it this way.
You may or my not like JW music that is your right and no one can deny that but don't call him a hack just say that you don't like his music. I don't like Britney Spears music but I would still **** her any time of the day because she hot and I respect that. But Just because I think she can't sing very well doesn't mean that I think she is a hack and should stop doing music some people love her music and thats all that matters. So the same goes for JW some people like him and some don't.

"Give OutKast the job! "

i woul rather cut my own dick off with a saber, throw it to the wolves, jump in a stream of spawning fish, and jump off a waterfall with a samon lodged in my ass.

". I don't like Britney Spears music but I would still **** her any time of the day because she hot and I respect that. "


hmmmm, ironic...

Erm Nor a fan then? Smoked salmon or normal?

smoked burns, so...normal for me.

Songwriter is a composer. A composer isnt necessarily a songwriter. Again Composer is the term, main term, covering the lot songwriter is just one of the thing a composer could be. There is a lot more than just songwriter to describe a composer. Everyone who makes music is a composer but they are divided into different genres and songwriter is just one of those genres. JW makes ,mostly, symphonic instrumental pieces and these pieces are not songs lyricist is exactly what a songwriter translate into in the Northern European languages

song =poetic composition.

I agree with it would be hard to imagine SW without the musical compositions of Williams, just because they are good doesnt mean all the stuff he touches is great. If you sit down and really listen to his different stuff you would find a lot of similarities in the buildup of his work

There is a lot more than just songwriter to describe a composer


...orchestrator, arranger....blah blah blah

"I agree with it would be hard to imagine SW without the musical compositions of Williams, just because they are good doesnt mean all the stuff he touches is great. If you sit down and really listen to his different stuff you would find a lot of similarities in the buildup of his work"

i see it that he has a style to his music. its his signature sound. every score cant be completely different thats why i like being able to show off my ear and say: "hey! this score was written by john williams!" its because i recognize his style and signature compostitions, just the same as me recognizing my best friends face.

thats why I find a lot of his stuff boring, sometimes it sounds like he writes his music on carbon paper.

carbon paper what do you mean?

if you dont like JW, then what composer do you like?

John Williams is the best

yes....he is...

Good job, tpaq. You turned a little joke into a 5 page thread, thanks in part to KMC members who were born without a sense of humor.

Me, I was more angry about you not being able to spell the word 'the' than I was about the topic.

There is a universe of difference in being able to play something somebody wrote, and actually creating it.

Point in case: The main guitar riff in "nothing else matters".
Simple as shit, any moron can play it, did they write it, no, James Hetfield did.

Mozart, Beethoven, Grieg, List, Verdi, Schultz

black paper, something of the "past" you put in between papers when you wanted copies of what you write

You don't like John Williams?!! Blasphemy!!!!

Well, i'm glad someone actually read more than the post above his.

'teh' is very trendy nowadays.

you dont read posts bery well

what was the point again?

If you listen to various composers' music, you can see similarities in their body of music--see John Barry's music, for James Bond and Out of Africa, etc;

Elmer Bernstein seems to have quite a large range, though--I'm trying to recall it, and have no time, now, to search the 'net for his bio

Film soundtrack music are the new classics! What will be compared with Beethoven and Mozart, in the future!

I'm just now listening to a CD I bought, of John Williams' music. the soundtrack from Heartbeeps--and I KNOW some of you will pick on the movie, but I enjoyed it, and love this music!
It gives you something different, with Williams--very electronic. there are similar bits with flutes and such, to the music from ET, and the Crimebuster theme should please those who like villain's theme songs

All artists and writers tend to dwell on something that gives them success once they find it. John Williams' music may sound similar, but he also has a great variety of themes. You can't compare the Star Wars intro to Across the Stars or Duel of The Fates aside from them all being orchestrated. John Williams is no hack.

Sorry, finti, that was my response to the thread itself. I should've been more clear.....

What cheap form

Yeah, maybe, he's actually the last of the oldschool style composers. But we must all keep in mind that what he is doing is NOT original, nor could he hold a candle to Mozart or Debussey

I dont think it is so much that all his musical scores sound alike as it is that all his scores have the John Williams-style to them... and he is no hack. He is one of the only living musical legends we have, especially after Jerry Goldsmith recently passed away...

i think this thread is the worst thread i ever read!!
"Fire John Williams!". are you ****ing nuts!!!???
williams is best composer of all times man!!oh and replace him with Ice-T??!! yeah thats a good idea....

it is obvious that you arent a Star Wars fan

Fool! Go listen to some Bartok and get an idea of REAL music. I ain't got time to argue with someone who doesn't know shit from shinola about music...

you gotta be joking.... i'm out of this thread its pointless

I don't joke about music.

I Would like to make a few points... John Williams is in my opinion the best musical storyteller of all time. His Music can trigger emotions that is rarely heard in other modern day film composers works. Obviouslly there are clear similarities in his works, the same goes for any composer, Beethoven, Chopin, Liszt, Bach, etc... this does not make him any less of a genius. All his Scores contain new fresh exciting Ideas. For Star Wars especially, I feel he is particularly inspired. The idea of "firing" him is simply ridiculous. The clue that John Williams is so brilliant is in the fact that both George Lucas and Steven Spielberg have expicitly stated that they would not use any composer other than John Williams for their Films.

The Point that was made earlier about the similarity in the Chamber Of Secrets, and "Zam The Asaasin/The Chase Through Courscant", yes, the music is almost identical, but John Williams was heavily rushed for that film, and besides, the music still works and fits the film beautifully :P

As for other Composers, i.e. Danny Elfman, well I love Danny Elfman's Work, but he's a simple composer and doesn't orchestrate or conuct his work, and he's best with Comedies I feel, I loved Mars Attacks! and MIB II was a nice score...

John Williams creates such amazing deep and meaningful music with so many hidden meanings and amazing motifs, Considering he has merely 3 months avg. to score films, I personally think he's most definetely amongst the most talented men alive today. And I can't wait to see what he comes up with for ROTS!!!!

<<

topic useless, how can u say JW sucks ???? his OST are the best ever made for cinema...

I figured that people would know that I was joking when i brought up Ice-T and a bongo man that doesn't exist.

Ice MF T

Actually his name is Poncho Sanchez and he's a hell of a bongo player. And for you unenlightened folk'. Playin the bongos takes a shit of a lot of skill. Especially in his genre of music. Williams is still semi-hackish, and Elfman is still a hack

I suppose your friend is not familiar with the score to "Catch Me if You Can"?

I think most of us have explained that Williams is far from a hack. I;m a trumpet player and I have a good conception of what some great orchestrated music sounds like. His original classical music he composes is amazing. I wasn't surprised after enjoying Saving Private Ryan that John Williams made the music for that with none other than the Boston Symphony Orchestra. Williams is a genius and a legend, accept it.

My commiserations on having to put up with a semi-hack orchestra score for 5 films.
how the hell did you get through them?
SOUND OFF?

or did you ramble pretentious mumbling throughout?

I have been playing trumpet for 13 years and piano for 11 (though I don't practice anymore). I study music at New School University and I'm a junior. One of my teachers is one of Elfmans orchestrators. He (Elfman) is a hack. J Williams isn't fresh or original, he just uses stuff that sounds good. He also recycles themes and progressions in his scores (who doesn't?). Now, excellent score writers, check out: Bernard Herrman or Carl Staling (the guy who does Looney Toons, and yes I'm serious, he is an orchestrating juggernaut)

Man, I'm not really getting your point here.