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we all know that the confederate flag was the banner for the confeds during the american civil war. does it seem weird to anyone else that they still hang it in the south? espescially after they LOST THE WAR?
it seems to me that people either like to live in the past or enjoy conveying to the world that they were impartial to the bill of rights and got slaughtered because of it.



what is your thoughts?

People keep up the confedate flag because the civil war was about the states rights over the countrys reign. It wasnt about slavery as some people say.

dont get me wrong i know that, but slavery is what sparked the dispute and led to different stuggles. it seems to me that people in the south still wish that there had been a confederate states of america.

It's supposed to be a symbol of southern pride but most people take it as a symbol of white power which is false.

"a symbol of white power which is false."

which is what it stood for in the past.

if they were smart they would have changed their 'southern' flag after the war to a different one, one that lets go of their pride and humbles itself to the american flag

I have a confederate flag on the wall in my room and i have a nifty belt buckle with the flag on it too. I usually wear it just to piss other people off...

Whenever I see someone with a confederate flag hanging at someone's house when I'm in north carolina I usually see an america flag right above it. And I don't think it ever stood for white pride.. people just tried to make it that way but it always was the symbol of the south.

Is a symbol of American History. I don't have a problem at all when people wear it for fashion reasons. To use it as a symbol of racist pride is NOT okay with me. Personally I think is a cool awesome flag.....HOORAY FOR DIXIE!!

i have an american flag to the left of it on the same wall.

well in theroy the American flag should be above the confederate flag.

But what do i know i am British

Even though I'm impartial one way or another, I'm just glad that the responses SO FAR in this thread have been sensible.
I would have never bet on it.

"I have a confederate flag on the wall in my room and i have a nifty belt buckle with the flag on it too. I usually wear it just to piss other people off..."

well thats fine,


you know the KLU KLUX KLAN used it as their symbol. for awhile.

its a beutiful flag but well don't see the point in using it.

The confederate flag is a symbol for redneck/hick pride.

its cooler than your other flag but it stands for bad things. Well its connected with them. So why use it its just offensive to some people.

Why do you say that?

People are too damn touchy. It's not like it's the swastika.

Because those are usually the people who are really really proud of that flag.

Actually that would have been my next example, I mean people can think the Nazi Flag is beautiful, it is appealing but it has just a lot of bad things connected to it. So why offend people if you can just not?

Hmm okay

Because today the swastika is used as a racist symbol. On the other hand, the confederate flag is used as a symbol of the south. Hell.. black southern rappers use it.. it can't be all that racist.

Oh well I guess it is okay, I men i don'T usually think it is necessary to piss someone off but I wouldn'T stop anyone from using that symbol, neither the swastika by the way.

'It's not like it's the swastika."

....for the KKK...

It's nothing like the swastika.. it was never meant to be a symbol of hate it's always been the rebel flag. People who don't know anything about it assume it's racist because the region it represents has a history of racism. Nonetheless, in this day and age the rebel flag has nothing to do with white pride or anything of the sort. I don't know if it's true that the KKK adopted it for a while but if they did that's probably because the KKK dwells in the south... I don't have any rebel flags and more than likely never will but I see them all the time on shirts/motorcycles/guitars/you name it. I rarely ever see the swastika.

i just like the flag, yea its conferderate...but doesnt stop it being a nice flag.

im from UK lol

Wow what an intellegent statment

From what I understand the Swastika was a symbol of the Sankrist or something like that. The Rebel Flag from what I understand was inspired by the St Andrews cross which is similar to the flag of Scotland. Can't say I'm positive on this, but my best suggestion is grab a book and do research......I might do myself......might.

I think it's living in the past. Be patriotic to your country that's enough being patriotic to your state or region is going too far.

No it's not.. then "I <3 NY" tee shirts are going too far as well. America is huge.. there's plenty of room to be proud of your region or state on top of being proud of your country.

I agree with the Afro man. Take for example, fans of professional sports leagues. People from Cleveland absolutely love their city's teams, no matter how terrible they are, and can't stand people from Cincinnati or Pittsburgh.

Yep, the truth generally is.

It's too bad the confederate flag symbolizes what it does to some people. It's a peice of history that unforunately has a bad conotation, but it is a peice of history.

I still don't believe in regional or state patriotism (Sports is a different thing I mean you support a team if they decide to move you should still support that team. I am a Big fan of a soccre team in another province and I wouldnt give a damn if they moved)

It stands for southern pride. And regional patriotism does make since because we are the United States of America. Unfortunately many who have southern pride also are bigots and there for the historical flag gets guilt by association.

Why? What the hell is wrong with being proud of something? Hell... you could be proud of your street.. who is it hurting? Whats the big difference between national pride and state pride? And about that sports comment.. in theory that would mean people in New Orleans should route the Utah Jazz.. LA should route the Oakland Raiders... Cleveland should route the Baltimore Ravens... Milwalkee should route the LA lakers.. Brooklyn should route the LA Dodgers.. etc. That'd get too damn confusing.

exactly

Originally it was the flag the confederate choose as their flag, the flag they would have used if they succeded with the seceding from the union.
The war was just as much about the states rights as it was about the slavery, most of the southerners that fought for the confederacy was commonores who couldnt afford slaves. They didnt fight to maintain slavery they fought for the sake of the states right, where maintaining slavery was just one of the issues.

The confederate flag has been abused by racial morons, those who bleieve that the flag stand for anything but southern pride is as ignorant as those who abuses the flag

the stigma that connects racism to the Confederate flag is very much the same as those of seeing a swastika and associating it with Nazism.

slavery is a serious black eye on the united states and should never be forgotten and in a case of considering waving a Confederate flag around you might as well spit in any descendant of a slave or American Indians face.

I might be harsh but thats just how I see it.

No because the Swastika was the nazi's flag. Of course you think of Nazis when you see it because it was their actual flag. The rebel flag isn't "racism's flag," so associating the swastika with Nazism is not the same as associating the rebel flag with racism. People think of racism when they see the rebel flag because they think it stands for slavery and anyone who has it wishes slavery was still legal. Most people who have rebel flags are actually satisfied with todays laws.. they just think it's a cool flag and see it as a way to represent their southern heritage.

I understand why some people are offended by the flag because of the things they seem to associate with it but I'm just saying that is false.. it doesn't stand for racism and people who have it aren't necessarily racist.

The reason why I am against state patriotism is because I am gainst patriotism in general. It is a very strong force within a society and one that does not always have the desired effects. Therefor I consider patriotism quite dangerous. Patriotism also has good effects no doubt there. But I am against every force that could become uncontrolably. Patriotism comes very close to Nationalism (and I sure as hell don't like that) So that's why I am against patriotism in general.

Now about state patriotism or whatever subform. To me patriotism is only possible when you have something to be patriotic about and to define what you are patriotic about you need boundries (else you will be patriotic about everything which has no point) Those boundries (IMO) are set by cultural differences. Like e.g. the UK has a different culture than the US. altho the difference between most countries (certainly in the same region) is quite small. So the margin for patriotism (IMO) is already small on a national scale. to go and divide it even further into regions and states is just too silly in my opinion.

It would also not help the unity in a country which IMO is far more important then being patriotic about your own region.

then that would be the same with the stars and stripes then, it represent the history of the US and in that history slavery was allowed, and the treatment of the Native Americans is all uppon the US government not the confederacy

so in case of a war and your country is invaded you wouldnt stand up for it cause that would be patriotic and you are against that?

War would be about the only exception. i said it also has some good aspects

But the definition is indeed far from perfect Finti

I tend to agree with Fire, patriotism, and even worse, jingoism, can go way to far, and it is wrong when a nation, any nation gets to the point where the people will support the country, the powers no matter what, just out of a misguided belief in patriotism, and those that believe it is unpatriotic to question authority, or to voice concerns... It can be important, and I am not saying it is always bad, but sometimes it can be...

well just for the record I think questioning authority also has serious limits

True, but if there is just cause I think it is important. Far more dangerous when a state gets to the point where citizens don't object to anything, no matter how wrong, out of a sense of patriotism.

than it has passed patriotism and turned into blind nationalism

back to topic though, the confederate flag is about the southern way and the pride they lay in that

I would say it is a pride thing.Not to sound rude or anything but it seens to be a personal blow to them even now that they losed.And I guess they still want to show us that they don't care if they losed.
Or something like that!JM

its more about the southern lifestyle, a bit laid back country western/southern rock kind of attitude

First of all the swastika has been used for thousands of years by many different cultures and it had many different connotations. The Nazi Socialist party took it as their emblem because one if it's meanings is that of purity.

On the other had the confederate flag was a symbol designed by a people and adopted by those same people to show that they were different from their country men in the north. I guess they still fly the flag to celebrate their differences, but I ask what differences are they actually celebrating. What are they proud of?

that they "sent a message" about the choice to secede the union should be up to the individual state, and the fact that they fought for that right.

what your saying is true but the people here have no choice because it's the country's adopted flag . but the beginning of my my prior post which you left out I am trying to say that the confederate flag is guilty by association and people of the states do have a choice whether to wave it or not. and it symbolises that time and mind set when people here discriminated others and the country openly took peoples rights away.

every symbol stands for the meaning behind it, tho that meaning can be different for different people.

It symbols the south

Is understandble that the Confederate flag might be offensive to certain people. And just like I said before is an awful shame that some clowns use it as a symbol of hatred and racism. But we can't always live in the past. Despite the history of the flag what happen then is fading away with the newer generations. In the past these symbols were violated by people with evil inentions. For me a swastika is a symbol of a religion and not of the Nazi regime. And the Confederate flag is a symbol of the Southern states and not of those clowns wearing white bed sheets. That is not to say I'm ignoring the role the symbols played in history. But I'm more like the type that looks at the origins of the Symbols.

What are they proud of?



I think if you ask most people why they are proud of the confederate flag you are not going to get that answer. I think that the "pride of the south" is more indoctrinated than actually singularly acquired and possessed.

I also found it ironic that some one from Norway had to answer my question as opposed to someone from the southern states.

The south has tons of cultural differences from the north. So if the boundaries for patriotism are set by cultural differences the south has plenty of things to be patriotic about. Being proud of your state/city/whatever is not a bad thing.. it doesn't mean you can't be proud of your country or anything like that it just means your especially satisfied with your neck of the woods.

Exactly. I used to think the same thing you are all saying about the rebel flag.. but after living in the south for two years I know better.

used to live in Arkansas cowboy

just like every californian is a pansy

For the most part, that's true.

I said the redneck thing because, honestly, it's pretty much ONLY those people who are proud of that flags "heritage" and what it stands for. I don't see any educated or intelegent people waving that flag around, usually it's just rednecks, hicks or skinheads.

well the musicians in Lynard Skynard and in the Allman brothers aint the kind I would call unintelligent people. Nor are they rednecks hicks or skinheads either

Yeah backfire that's false. Depends on what you consider a hick though. Plenty of rich smart people in the south who boast rebel flags.

And they're the exception to the rule, that is if they actually truly believed in the falgs heritage. However, I doubt they used the flag for any other reason then simple shock value. So people would be like "Oh my god, they have the confederate flag up, I can't believe that!! Those rebels!!!". Probably just was in reference to themselves thinking that they were rebels and all that generic musician crap. Plus musicians aren't usually the smartest folks in the world.



You can get rich and still be a redneck/hick, you can also be uneducated and stupid. Look at jeff foxworthy.

Yea, but look at the vast majority of people who listen to Lynard Skynard

Not enough cultural differences by my knowledge

and I still consider patriotism a bad thing, you are not going to change my opinion on this without a decent set of arguements.

If you do want to be patriotic about something choose ONE thin (like a state or a country) not both

I think that is like saying "look at the vast majority of people who watch the Dukes of Hazzard". They wave the General Lee flag around so much that people came to accept it as a symbol of TV entertainment.

Trust me there is plenty of differences. You ever been to the south?

That's different. The Nazis killed millions of people... The CSA was just a bad joke that started a pointless war that ended up changing very little for the good

Dimebag Daryl played a guitar with the confederate flag on it

nah when I lived in Arkansas there were plenty of people having that flag in their car, they werent hicks redneck nor unintelligent. It was some kind of identity for them

you base that on what?

dont throw stones while in a glass house dude

a knowledge that seems to be close to nothing in this matter looking at your statement here

patriotic about my country, the fact that we remain outside the EU and stil aint a part of that bullshit EU actually is.

Oh I forgot about him He was awsome

Dude I'm not even an american. But where I live, in Belgium (we're a federalistique country too), people are always yapping about regional patriotism as well. In my part of Belgium, Flanders, we have a pretty big seperatistic party (they're the biggest party, around 25%) The other parts of belgium even speak a different language and they have a lot of cultural and political differences and I even don't think that is enough as a difference to go off yapping it is a different culture.

yea yea yea Finti we all know you dislike the EU

the south are made up of people from more or less every country in Europe add Africa the native americans and som Asian countries and you have a mixed bowl of cultures pretty different ones too.

Then I stand corrected. Altho I would like to see it before I believe it

Thx for the info Finti

what do you think US is made up from, it is the mix of immigrants from all over the world

that I know I mean the totaly different culture

"slavery is a serious black eye on the united states "


tee hee...

Fire just the general way of life is different in the south than it is in the north. In the south everything is laid back, the people are more friendly (for the most part), but also lazy (for the most part), and is generally less wealthy than the north. The north on the other hand has a very busy, stressful, rat race type environment where everyone seems to be competing for the best car/best house/best family. I think the rebel flag more than anything symbolizes the laid back southern lifestyle. And I doubt it's going to cause some sort of uprising so I really don't see anything wrong with it.

Finti his arguement was a whole lot better cause what you just said IMO is not enough of a cultural difference

the Dukes of Hazaard had it on their charger, Axl Rose used to wear it. Cool Flag. St. Andrews cross. Can't go wrong with that. Surely.

it is a cool flag, dont let morns abuse it for wrong reasons cause when it all breakes down it was the flag the confederate states choose to use as an identification of their newly founded federation....kind of star warsish about it come AOTC

The problem with the flag is that it is factually connected with racism and slavery. Seeing as the people who created it fought for slavery to continue. The flag is basically the swastica of America. It's understandable why people see it as a racial smear on the country, since it was created to support such awful things.

They didn't fight for slavery.. slavery sparked the war but they fought for independence because they felt they were being bossed around by the Northern states. They lost.. but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be able to hang up whatever the hell kind of flag they want. Besides.. most of the people in the south know slavery was wrong now and no longer believe in it so the rebel flag really has nothing to do with promoting slavery anymore.

Yes they did fight for slavery, they masked it as independence but it was really about them wanting to keep slaves. Fact is for most people the confederate flag is a symbole of slavery, and it's understandable.

It was about them wanting to make their own laws. Most people in the south didn't have slaves anyway.. only the rich plantation owners did so would the most of the southerners support the civil war if it was only about slaves?

Afro, they didn't necessarily even support the war, there were poor people who fought on both sides. That's why the Civil War is described as "a poor man's fight but a rich man's war." (maybe I have it backwards--I feel stupid today )

I'm not only saying the soldiers who fought, though I would imagine they supported the war cause I don't think they were forced to fight in it, were they? I'm saying a lot of people in the south supported the confederacy who didn't have slaves.

They were, they still had the draft back then...

Oh.. I wasn't sure if everyone who fought in it was drafted or if some of it was voluntary too. I still think more than just plantation owners supported the south's independence. I always thought they kinda used slavery as a scapegoat for a reason to try to form their own nation while they really had other reasons to want it as well but I don't know.. I could be wrong.

I'm sure you're right, but there were also a lot of poor white southerners (and northerners for that matter) who really didn't give a shit one way or the other but were drafted into the army.

Doesn't matter what it meant then, but rather what it has come to mean.

Much like the swastika. It was used in many, many cultures and in many good ways until the nazis got their hands on it and ruined it for everyone.

The facts that a) The Civil War's enduring legacy is that of slavery and b) the Confederate flag was on the side of those who supported slavery mean that they ruined it for everyone.

If you think it means pride, then it is pride in, what, 5 or 6 years of your ancestors' history?

Well it looks like I'm beat so I'm done defending it.. I don't even own any rebel flags.. hell I'm from New Jersey and my family wasn't even in this country during the civil war. I just think everyone's a little too touchy over it cause I lived in North Carolina and I know how proud southerners are of that flag (for whatever reason) and I know they aren't getting rid of it so people should be a little more open towards it. If you allow racists to use it as a symbol of hate you're only giving them power to offend people.

The over-whelming causes of the civil war were matters of federal rights v states rights. Was America to be one union, under a strong national government, or would it continue to be a loose confederation of like minded states operating on a state by state basis? Even as far back as Andrew Jackson's presidency there was a tension between the northern states and the southern states. Many Southern states had issues with federal taxes and tariffs. Jackson almost sent troops to South Carolina because a huge number of federal tariffs weren't being paid.

So, basically, (like most wars) the truely central issue was money. Southern states didn't want to pay monies that would support a central federal government that they felt would force them to live under laws that they didn't agree with. That they felt didn't/shouldn't apply to them. A key issue among them was slavery.

I live in North Carolina. I see the rebel flag quite often. And it isn't always in in the back window of a pick-up truck or on a belt buckle. There is a very exclusive neighborhood here that sits just off the highway(yes, it has it's own exit on the highway) outside of town. When you are driving to this neighborhood there is a field that sits off the side of the highway about a half a mile before you reach the exit. This field is part of the neighborhood. In this field is a solitary flag pole, with a rebel flag flying.

So, in answering the question: Is the rebel flag a racist symbol? I guess the answer lies in the intent behind it's display. The flag flying in that field serves as a reminder that black people aren't welcome in that neighborhood, or on their golf courses, in their grocery stores. In all the years I've been going to visit my grandparents there, I've never seen a black person in that neighborhood. So, I guess the message has gotten across.

Conversly, I dated a guy once that had a belt buckle with this flag on it.

In my opinion, the legitimate reasons for the civil war are one thing. But, beginning with the war and ever since, this flag has been considered a symbol of repression and slavery. Take the swastika for example. The Nazis used it as a symbol for their third reich...a muderous, racist institution. Now, the swastika is over 3000 years old. Would anyone here who is saying that people need to calm down about the use of the rebel flag walk around with a swastika flag in the back window of their car? Or wear one on their belt buckle?

I doubt it.

Maybe it's just me but I think the swastika is on a different level then the rebel flag because of the amount of jews that were killed during the holocaust. But I do think that people should calm down about the swastika too. I'm not saying wear it on your belt buckle but I just don't see the point in getting offended by a flag, even if the people who use it are intending to offend you. If everyone calmed down and just ignored shit heads who still boast a swastika the swastika would lose all it's power.

again the cofederate flag represent the southern way of today, not the civil war. It is the thing southerners use to say hey I am from the south, a thing a bunch of states can have as a common symbol to show where in the states they are from. Missisippi still uses it in its state flag

Oh, don't get me wrong. I'm not offended by it. I'm not black. Nor am I offended by the swastika. When you get right down to it, I'm a facist. As for the flag, Ive found that it is most often displayed so proudly by the ignorant minority that still believes that the south will rise again...what ever that means, I mean, they got slapped down eventually.

I was actually thinking about this thread on my way home from work last night. I was behing a guy in a pick-up truck that had three stickers on his bumper. One was a confederate flag in the shape of a flying bird with the words "free bird" emblazzoned on it...I can only assume that it was reffering to the song. The next was an NRA sticker and the third was a length of rope tied in a noose. I considered passing him so he could follow my HRC sticker for a while, but my exit came up.

I'm from the South and I'm proud of it. I like the North as well, but if I got into a "who's better" argument you can bet I'll be defending the South. BTW, that's not what I'm insinuating here.

I'm also white and a good deal of my friends and co-workers are black. I get along with all of them. I don't own any confederate flags, but if someone wants to use that to show they support the South, hey, okay by me.

I respect people who are proud of where they come from, however they want to show it. If I see someone in public with a flag, I don't attach subjective labels to someone I don't even know in the first place. A huge majority of the time the evil perceptions of intent are only in the subjective mind of the criticizer.

Living in the past... I dont see anyone brandishing a northern 13 original colonies flag...

guess that flag doesnt have a certain livestyle that identifiable today, and it wasnt 13 northern colonies, North and South Carolina and Georgia are pretty southern ones

Originally posted by BackFire
Because those are usually the people who are really really proud of that flag.

So are you saying that more than likely these guys are bad guys?
Link: maxpages.com/bubbashome

At one time the Stars 'n Bars were a legitimate political symbol, but now it basically translates to : "The South will rahz again! Yeeee-Haw!"

confederate flag symbolizes racism and treason. Do "proud germans" still fly the swastika?

Originally posted by Darth Jello
confederate flag symbolizes racism and treason. Do "proud germans" still fly the swastika?

Nope. The Stars 'n Bars have become synonymous with racism. Today, yes the 2 flags more-or-less mean the same thing.

Last year at a store I saw some little white chick with a shirt that said "I *heart* The South" and the heart had the stars 'n bars!

It's not so strange. I know people, really liberal people, who have the old Soviet flag hanging up - now they don't in any way condone what happened during the USSR years but they a. Think it's just a good looking flag (pop artish) or b. Are kind of those people who see it as a symbol, a transcendant one, of the communist ideal, not of Communist failings.

And here in Australia, the flag of the Eureka stockade is still popular. Despite the fact it was a pathetic rebellion that resulted in a heap of Chinese miners being beaten up before the red coats came and shot a heap of the rioters. Few people even remember what it was about, or what the flag represented, but it somehow has a bit of a culturally place in peoples hearts, good or bad (after all, we honor a bush ranger and some people want a song about a suicidal sheep rustler to become our national anthem)