Justice League (Past & Present) vs. Avengers (Past & Present)

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.



Cosmic Cube
Same, ol. Featureless environment, no environmental advantages (space, water, ect.,) No pulling weapons out of ass.

Teams:

Justice League Unlimited:
Superman
Batman
Flash
Wonder Woman
Martian Manhunter
Green Lantern
Steel
Hawkman
Hawk Girl
Aquaman
Firestorm
Atom
Fire
Ice
Power Girl
Green Arrow
Menagerie
Supergirl
Red Tornado
Dr. Light
Dr. Fate

Avengers Unlimited:

Captain America
US Agent
Iron Man
War Machine
Thor
Hawkeye
Black Panther
Black Widow
Spiderman
Spiderwoman
Hulk
She-Hulk
Submariner
Human Torch
Invisible Woman
Mr. Fantastic
Thing
Wasp
Scarlet Witch
Quicksilver
Binary

Cosmic Cube
Big ass teams, eh?

Cosmic Cube
This is how I see it:

Captain America leads the Avengers. Superman leads the Justice League. Flash, being the fastest, would be the first to attack. He dashes forward and punches Captain America in the jaw, sending him reeling. Invisible Woman traps him in a force field, and Flash is taken out by US Agent. Captain America regains his senses, and begins to spar with Hawkman.

Namor flies at Aquaman, and delivers a crushing electrically charged puch to his chest, showing him who the real king of Atlantis is. Iron Man knocks out the other billionaire, Batman with a supersonic punch. Iron Man is then knocked off his feet by the hammer his DC counterpart, Steel. The Human Torch intervenes, increasing steel's heat conducting armor to unbearable temperatures. Iron Man then turns on Dr. Light, who manipulates the beam, turning it upon Iron Man knocking him out.

The Hulk and Wonder Woman fight, Wonder Woman's superior speed is a large factor but Hulk's strength overcomes her. War Machine appears behind Wonder Woman, riddling her with bullets. He is then knocked down by Martian Manhunter, however War Machine's armor protects him. War Machine charges into Martian Manhunter but being outclassed in strength, he falls to Manhunter. The Human Torch then swoops in front of Martian Manhunter, and sets him ablaze, and defeating Him.

Hawkeye and Green arrow trade shots. Hawkeye's superior aim plants an adamantinum arrowhead in the chest of the Green Arrow, defeating him.

US Agent tries to avoid a massive green sword, created by Green Lantern. The sword cuts into US Agent, felling Him She Hulk rushes in and delivers the knockout blow. Hulk jumps into the air and grabs an unsuspecting Superman. He pummels Superman, but Superman throws Hulk off of him into a wall. Superman gets up and delivers a superspeed punch to Hulk's face, knocking Him down, but also making him angrier.

Hulk gets up, gets angrier, and stronger, and tackles Superman to the ground. Dr. Fate blasts Hulk off of Superman using his Magic. Thor teleports behind Superman, and with a crushing blow from the mystical Mjolnir, the man of steel falls. Black Panther punches Menagerie in the face, sending him across the room. He then leaps on Menagerie, clawing her into submission. Binary projects force blasts at Firestorm who also projects his reality altering blasts at her. Firestorm conjures a steel cage, trapping her. Binary easily bends the bars and fires a force blast at Firestorm knocking him out cold. Scarlet Witch and Red Tornado battle, Scarlet Witch comes out on top.

Spider Woman and Dr. Fate battle. She uses her telekinetic webs to bind him, and her superstrength to knock him out.

Forget the rest... Avengers win.

Maestro
add sentry into the mix, and the JLA would be toast.

BobbyD
Someone forgot GL encasing them all in an impenetrable green bubble and Superman hitting the bubble like a beach ball all the way to the sun.

I don't know if that would happen but it would sound kinda neat?

Maybe someone as crazy as myself should be holding a GL ring?

Hoohahahahahahah!!!!!

evil face

DarkCrawler
I think that Green Arrow I is better archer then Hawkeye, plus he has his trick arrows...Green Arrow II is better martial artist than Hawkeye.

DarkCrawler
We are all doomed.

Cosmic Cube
The GL putting them all in a bubble? They'd break it. C'mon, Iron Man, War Machine, Binary, US Agent, Thor, Hulk, She Hulk, Namor, and Thing? they'd break anything.

And no more throwing things into the sun! It's stupid...

norrin radd

Draco69
The JLA has one huge advantage : telepathy. None of the Avengers have protection against telepathy. Martian Manhunter is an incredibly skilled telepath (he's better than Professor X). Aquaman is also an a very talented telepath. MM could either put them all to sleep (he once mindwiped 70 people all over the world at the same time) or he can control the strongest of the Avengers to attack their fellow Avengers. The JLA takes it.

norrin radd

Tron
Powerwise, the Avengers I think would make the biggest impact are Thor, Scarlet Witch, Sue Richards, and Hulk. JLA, on the other hand, have Superman, Flash, Firestorm, Dr. Fate, Green Lantern, and Martian Manhunter. JLA has the biggest avantage here. There's just a little too much for the Avengers to overcome.

For one, I serously doubt Sue would be fast enough to catch Flash in a forcefield. And if she does, call in Green Lantern, whose power far outweighs hers, in my opinion.

Although I think Iron Man can beat Steel, most of the other JLA'ers can easily peel that armor apart. Others, like Firestorm, can easily create an adamantium cage or box, trapping some Avengers, including Hulk (I'm talking about true adamantium, not the secondary cheaper version that Hulk and others have destroyed), and taking them out of the fight. And Firestorm doesn't have reality warping powers, he has the ability to manipulate molecules, making almost anything out of nothing. Fate's magic, well, that kinda speaks for itself. Green Lantern, well, any of them would have hell overcoming any GL. Only ones that really come close to GL's power is Thor (using Mjolnir), Sue, or Scarlet Witch. But honestly, I still don't see how they can beat Green Lantern.

In my opinion Cube, your opinion on the battle seems a little biased. You have the JLA fighting like they've never fought before. I mean really, Spider-Woman beating Fate so easily? I like her and all, but Fate's pretty much DC's Dr. Strange, I just don't see it. I'd like to see the Avengers win, but the scales are much more in the JLA's favor, especially with the teammates you gave them.

Draco69
To Norrin Radd,

He once gave another telepath (more accurately a white martian) a stroke.

norrin radd

Draco69
A White Martian is just like Martian Manhunter except they're evil and white.

Cosmic Cube
I was trying to get someone to post with the story. It could go much differently. Besides aren't we all a little "biased" deep in our hearts? Your forgetting Iron Man, Binary, Human Torch, She Hulk, Namor, and War Machine.

Dr. Fate is nowhere near Strange's power; he isn't a Sorcerer Supreme. Hulk never destroyed adamantinum; adamantinum is indestructable. He bent it, (an adamantinum cage, to be exact.) Scarlet witch could easily dispel a such a cage. I don't think Sue would have much of a problem trapping Flash; he can't see her. It's not like she has to run up and tag him to put a force field around him.

In response to Draco: Once Martian Manhunter catches a glimpse of Human Torch; no more telepathy (or anything else.)

Tron
A White Martian is basically what Martian Manhunter would be if he was ugly, evil, and his skin was white, to put in the simplest of terms.

Cosmic Cube
Scarlet witch wouldn't have much of a problem defeating Green Lantern. One hex-bolt, "whoops my ring slipped off!" KO.

Draco69
To Cosmic Cube:

Martian Manhunter no longer has vulnerabilty to flame. And Doctor Fate is on Doctor Strange's level. He certainly wouldn't get tangled in telekinetic webs. In fact, he could teleport the entire team to another world with a wave of his hand.

Cosmic Cube
Can you prove he's no longer vulnerable? If so, what issue #. All DC characters have a weakness.

Draco69
Green Lantern's ring can not be removed from his hand unless he desires it. Far more competent opponents than Scarlet Witch have tried and failed. And who's to say that Green Lantern won't create an army of winged monkeys to assault the Avengers?

Cosmic Cube
"Teleporting them" would not be winning. No altering the evironment. I highly doubt Dr. Fate could beat Dr. Strange. Dr. Strange is the most powerful magician in his dimension. Can Fate say the same?

Cosmic Cube
Green Lantern's ring cannot be removed? I say prove it. Besides, a hex bolt could cause the ring to come off, not 'remove' it.

Draco69
The Oa Guardians put an "enchantment" ,for a lack of a better word, on Kyle's ring to prevent anyone from taking the ring and using it for evil causes. After the whole Hal Jordan scenario, they bulked up Kyle's ring like there was no tomorrow. They made the ring have no weakness to the color yellow and the made it so that the ring can only be used by Kyle or by someone of his genetic line. (i.e his great-grandson during a time-travel adventure) Kyle's ring can be removed only and if only he relinquishes it with free will.

Wanda is unpredictable to say the least. Her powers affect probability. Wanda's hex bolts vs. the Oa Guardian's enchantment. It's no contest. The Oa Guardians are arguably the most powerful beings in the DC universe.

As I said before, who's to say that Green Lantern doesn't create a giant plasma cannon to nuclearize the Avengers. Who's to say Scarlet Witch isn't taken out by Green Lantern or the Flash who zips around the Avengers knocking out all those with human endurance?

Cosmic Cube
Superman < Thor
Flash < Sue
Green Lantern < Scarlet Witch
Martian Manhunter < Human Torch or Binary
Firestorm < Scarlet Witch
Dr. Fate < Thor

Draco69
Flash > Captain America US Agent Hawkeye Black Panther Black Widow Scarlet Witch
Quicksilver

Superman > Captain America US Agent Iron Man War Machine Hawkeye
Black Panther Black Widow Spiderman Spiderwoman Hulk She-Hulk Submariner
Human Torch Mr. Fantastic Thing Wasp Scarlet Witch Quicksilver

Green Lantern > Captain America US Agent Iron Man War Machine Hawkeye
Black Panther Black Widow Spiderman Spiderwoman Hulk She-Hulk Submariner
Human Torch Mr. Fantastic Thing Wasp Scarlet Witch Quicksilver Invisible Woman Binary

Martian Manhunter > all of them. Telepathic attack (i.e. fall asleep, mental control, blood-clot to the brain etc.

Dr. Fate > All of them. Magic is fun.

Cosmic Cube
Why go "Cosmic Beings" and gods always come into play in our arguments, Draco. I would still like to see an issue number, but the acts of these beings have no affect in this thread. It wouldn't be Scarlet Witch versus the guardians of Oa. It would be Scarlet Witch versus Green Lantern. That would be like Lilandra assisting Xavier in the Telepathic battle thread, or the gods assisting Wonder Woman. It isn't magic vs. magic. It's magic vs. probability. Probability affects everyone. What's the probability of Green Lantern accidently taking off the ring? Slim to none. Wanda could drastically increase this chance. A plasma cannon? yeah, let's be a little more logical. If he could do that, Doomsday couldn't have beaten him.

Cosmic Cube
Flash would be taken out of the fight by one of Sue's force fields. US Agent and Captain America both have far greater than Human endurance by the way.

Serious overestimation of Superman. Thor teleports behind him and knocks him out with Mjolnir.

I won't even respond to the Green Lantern statement.

You haven't proven to me the whole MM vs fire argument.

Dr Fate> Thor

Draco69
First off the Green Lantern Corps killed Doomsday with a powerful green plasma attack. Then he came back to life completely immune to the attacks of the Green Lanterns. That's his power. And that's why he was so difficult to defeat.

Secondly, I didn't say that the Oa Guardians were assisting Kyle. I said that the enchantment made it thus so that Kyle ring could never be removed or nor could it fall off unless Kyle wanted it so. Dr. Fate and and various other magicians and scientists have tried and failed to remove it. Scarlet Witch control over probablity is limited. She has little to no idea what would happen as result of her hex. She can only will the hex into the right direction to create the desired result (Source: The Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe : The Avengers )

If it was Green Lantern vs. Scarlet Witch, Kyle could do a number of things to take her out. There have numerous occasions where Wanda has been taken out with a piece of debris or an occasional fist. A giant green dinosaur stomping on the lusty gypsy would be a likely scenario. Wanda requires time to focus her hex. That's why she's always in the back.

Like I said before, the Flash zips around the Avengers at near-lightspeed and takes out anyone with human endurance. Including the Scarlet Witch.

Draco69
Flash would NOT be taken out by Sue's force field. He can move at near-lightspeed if he desires. Sue would be taken out before the thought of "ouch" even makes it to her brain. US Agent and Captain America both possess "peak human" endurance. A couple thousand hits would fix that problem. Who said he only has to hit them once.

I never said that Superman would take out Thor. I know and you know that Thor would take Superman out. If you actually read the names you'll see that Thor's name is not there.

Martian Manhunter no longer fears or is vulnerable to fire since the Burning storyline in the JLA. Why would I lie to you?

Dr. Fate > Every Avenger than Thor. Thor vs. the Entire JLA. The JLA wins.

Cosmic Cube
I'm very disapointed. You overpower the Justice League.

In retalliation:

Scarlet Witch > Superman Batman Flash Wonder Woman Martian Manhunter Green Lantern Steel Firestorm Dr. Fate

Superman trips and is impaled on a stalagmite of Kryptonite.

One of Batman's toolbelt grenades explodes, killing him

Wonder Woman has a heart attack

Flash slips on an oil slick into a wall, KO.

Martian Manhunter spontaneously combusts.

Green Lanter's flying, ring slips off, falls several feet to the ground; KO

Steel's costume malfunctions and explodes

Dr. Fate's chants the wrong spell and turns himself into an avocado

What are the odds of that happening?

Cosmic Cube
FLASH CAN'T SEE SUE. HENCE THE NAME, INVISIBLE WOMAN.

Draco69
Scarlet Witch (non-psycho I'm gonna destroy the Avengers version) > pretty much every JLAer.

The post above is absolutely ridiculous. You're undermining your intelligence. You're better than this.

In retaliation, Dr. Fate waves his hand and all the Avengers turn into cute pink bunnys.

Cosmic Cube
And how would Dr. Fate dispose of all of the Avengers?

Draco69
Sue won't have the chance to turn invisible, because the Flash knocked her out a picosecond ago.

Draco69
Magic. Don't ask for an explanation.

Cosmic Cube
No. THAT is ridiculous.

Draco69
It's fact. Superman would be able to defeat everyone of them. As would the Flash and Green Lantern. Superman vs. She-Hulk. Superman wins. The Flash vs. Captain America. The Flash wins.

As I said before, the Avengers are completely vulnerable to telepathic attacks.

Cosmic Cube
She was initially invisible. She always is in battle.

Draco69
Okay. MM sense her presence and knocks her out telepathically.

Cosmic Cube
Superman vs Hulk and Binary. Superman wins. yeah, right.

Draco69
You misunderstood. I meant one on one Superman would be able to defeat, with ease and with difficulty, everyone who is inferior to his power.

And you still haven't address the Dr. Fate issue or the telepathy issue.

Cosmic Cube
Don't use the speed arguement, Binary and Thor also posesses greater than light speed. So...

Binary and Thor > JLA.

Draco69
Binary CAN travel faster than lightspeed. However she's intangible during her light form, so that's null and void. Thor CANNOT travel faster than lightspeed. He travels through teleportation. He whirls his hammer and teleports to wherever he desires. However, teleportation requires a lot of energy and quite some time.

Cosmic Cube
Martian manhunter doesn't possess mind control. His powers are to link minds, and take information, according to every site I see. DC doesn't list his powers.

Cosmic Cube
Where do you get this stuff? Thor's teleportation is instantaneous, and the power comes soley from Mjolnir. He can fly at lightspeed with Mjolnir as well. Binary can choose to be intangible when she travels at lightspeed to avoid planets. Even if she did become intangible, ever heard of force blasts?

Draco69
He once mindwiped 70 different people across the globe at once. Imagine what he could to do the Avengers. He can mentally control people (i.e. the Mirror Master), make them go to sleep (i.e. Ra Ghul' guards), etc.

Cosmic Cube
You also said that Binary is weaker than Superman. Hah.

Cosmic Cube
He would be dead long before he could focus a mental attack.

Cosmic Cube
For him to do such a telepathic feat, it requires focus and time. Time he doesn't have.

Draco69
Thor's teleportation is instantaneous... Oonce he winds up his hammer and steps into the portal. Binary is completely intangible in her light form. Also I recede my comment that she is faster than light. I looked it up and I found that she can travel AT lightspeed. Her force blasts would pose to much of a threat since they're not that powerful. At full strength she can shatter steel with them.

Still haven't replied to the Fate argument nor the telepathy argument.

Cosmic Cube
Green Lantern's a human. He's gone before he can lift his arm, much less "create a giant plasma cannon."

Draco69
MM doesn't require that much time to focus a mental attack. One or two seconds at most. And who's gonna kill him when he's completely intangible and invisible?

Binary IS weaker than Superman.

Draco69
Green Lantern's ring creates a forcefield around his body that can withstand pretty much any assault.

Cosmic Cube
Thor holds up his hammer, and lightning strikes, teleporting him. Shatter steel? What's your source? Never the less, she could fire them at lightspeed. How about a couple thousand force blasts that can shatter steel. She can knock out all of the Justice League heroes except maybe Superman. Save him for Thor or Hulk.

Draco69
Oh spizzle. I am SO sorry, Cosmic Cube. I thought Binary was Captain Marvel! You know the black one! *smacks forehead* Oh well. In this case, Binary aka. Carol Danvers should not be allowed into the Avengers. Why? For one, she was never an Avenger to begin with as Binary. She was an Avenger as Ms Marvel. Two, It's completely unfair to the JLA to allow a being onto the Avengers that would give Galactus a run for his money.

Sorry again! smile

Cosmic Cube
Green lantern has to use the ring first to project the force field. He wouldn't have the time to twitch, much less use his ring.

Draco69
No. Thor whirls his hammer into a circle like he normally does. And then he steps into the portal and teleports to where he desires.

Draco69
His ring possesses a supercomputer that protects him automatically with the forcefield. And if Invisble Woman is invisible prior to the battle than Green Lantern can just hover in the air with his forcefield on.

Cosmic Cube
Binary did fight as an Avenger.
http://www.avengersassemble.us/mcquaid/seanb.html
She is applicable.

Cosmic Cube
I said Avengers past and present.

Cosmic Cube
Read Avengers #171.

Cosmic Cube
Green Lantern vs. Avengers. Not very good odds.

Draco69
You're lying. She joined the Avengers as Ms. Marvel in Avengers # 183, 1978. She didn't turn into Binary until Uncanny X-Men 163, 1982. and she thusly joined the Starjammers. She lost her Binary powers later on. She rejoined the Avengers in Avengers vol. 3 #4 1998.

Cosmic Cube
The Avengers have more than enough firepower to take down th JLA.

Cosmic Cube
Ms. Marvel first appeared in the Avengers comics series in issue 171.

Cosmic Cube
Regardless, Binary is on the Avengers roster. She is an Avenger.

Cosmic Cube
I never lied.

Draco69
The JLA has much more than enough power to defeat the Avengers.

Cosmo Kramer
Whose to say the JLA are all to busy partying on the Real World to bother fighting with the Avengers considering Cap America would never go for "speciol brownies"! laughing

Draco69
Ms. Marvel APPEARED as a guest star in issue 171. She didn't join until issue 183. Carol Danvers as Binary never served as an Avenger. Thus her status as past Avenger is null and void.

Yes, you did lie. You specifically said that Binary joined the Avengers in issue 171. I disproved it. You got caught.

Cosmic Cube
Her powers didn't begin to fade until Avengers 3 #5. Then she became Warbird. Binary was an Avenger for a small period of time.

Cosmic Cube
I didn't say Binary joined in issue #171, I said Ms. Marvel first appeared. Perhaps I misled you.

Cosmic Cube
She got the power of Binary long after she joined and quit the Avengers.

Cosmic Cube
She couldn't become Binary in a fight with Hyperion in issue #5.

Cosmic Cube
Therefore, Binary was an Avenger.

Draco69
Carol Danvers aka Binary was NOT an Avenger. She participated in the Avengers mission against Morgan Le Fay in Avengers Vol. 3 #1-3. Her powers as Binary were severly depleted during the event. In fact she was taken out by Justice, the New Warrior with a telekinitic blast. Her powers as Binary faded away in Avengers Vol. 3 #3 before she was inducted into the Avengers. In Avengers Vol. 3 #4 she served under the alias as Warbird, her powers as Binary completely gone.


Binary was never inducted into the Avengers.

Draco69
Carol Danvers joined the Avengers as Ms. Marvel in issue 183, 1979. She quit the team in issue 200, 1980. She got her powers of Binary in Uncanny X-Men #163-164, 1982. She joined the Starjammers after. When she lost her Binary powers, she joined the Avengers as Warbird in issue #4

Cosmic Cube
She didn't lose her power until issue #5. She couldn't become Binary when fighting Hyperion. She re-joined the avengers before she lost her powers. Binary counts as an Avenger.

Draco69
She lost her powers in issue #3. The Beast performed tests on her and concluded that her powers as Binary were completely gone. Carol herself said she could never transform again. They then made new and weird codenames for her.

In issue #5, She and Captain America sparred together, in the training room. Cap asked her why she didn't just turn into Binary and lay waste to the droids. Warbird dodged the question because she already lost her powers in the prior issue.

Cosmic Cube
You are lying. I have the synopsis of the Issue #3 here.
http://www.avengersassemble.us/ema-3.html

It says nothing of Binary losing her power.
They even fought an alternate universe Binary, called Lady Marvel (who is not Binary.) Morgan used Scarlet witches reality altering power to make a new Universe called Morganverse and her own Avengers. Sounds like Scarlet Witch is stronger than Oa to me).

Thirty-Nine Avengers? Presumably the Beast's counting the heroes present in this scene: Sersi, Starfox, Spider-Woman (II), Quasar (III), Swordsman (II), Magdalene, Darkhawk, USAgent, Black Widow (II), Sandman, Tigra, Moondragon, ***BINARY***, Rage, Iron Man, Vision (II), Black Knight (III), Scarlet Witch, Stingray, Machine Man, Hercules, Firestar, Justice, D-Man, Quicksilver, Crystal, Falcon (II), She-Hulk, Stingray, Living Lightning, Firebird, Sub-Mariner, Black Panther and Beast himself. "

Cosmic Cube
Face the fact that Binary was an Avenger, however short the time period my have been.

Draco69
I have the Official Handbook of the Avengers and the actual issue right here next to me. She was NOT an Avenger during the Morgan Le Fay. She was called because she served as an Avenger once as Ms. Marvel. Justice and Firestar were there even though they were never Avengers Her powers were severely depleted. ( She was taken out with a telekinetic blast from Justice. At her regular strength, she wouldn't fall to such an attack. ) She was inducted into the Avengers as Warbird in issue #4.

Oa created the universe and has powers over life and death. Wanda is speck of dust to them.

Don't accuse ME of lying when I disproved you numerous times in the previous posts. You started this Binary debacle by saying she was an Avenger in #171.

Draco69
Lies are Lies. Binary was never an Avenger. When she participated in the Morgan Le Fay problem, her powers were not even a shadow of what they used to be. If a teenage New Warrior can take her out. Than anyone of the JLA can.

Cosmo Kramer
I have recently been called a liar and I laughed it off I mean come on who would actually lie in order to make their favorite comic hero look good. If he wasnt awesome he wouldnt be my favorite, uh duh.

Cosmic Cube
In issue 4 she still had the ability to become Binary. In issue 3, where does it say beast tested her? In every Avengers roster, you will find Binary's name. According to the synopsis, Binary is a member. Binary is eligible for this fight.

Cosmic Cube
I thought Source created the universe. Anyway, that's irellevant.

Cosmic Cube
If Captain Marvel was in on it, JLA would have no hope. Thor does possess lightspeed, it says so on the website. (Speed isn't teleportation)

Draco69
She lost her powers in issue #3. The Beast performed tests on her and concluded that her powers as Binary were completely gone. Carol herself said she could never transform again. They then made new and weird codenames for her.

In issue #5, She and Captain America sparred together, in the training room. Cap asked her why she didn't just turn into Binary and lay waste to the droids. Warbird dodged the question because she already lost her powers in the prior issue.

The synopsis is wrong. I have the comic right next to me.

ONCE AGAIN, Binary's powers were SEVERELY depleted. A 19-year old kid with telekinetic powers took out. That's how weak she was. In X-Men Unlimited she consulted the X-Men (Rogue, Jean Grey, Cyclops, Bishop and the Beast) to help her with her depleting powers. They couldn't do anything

Binary was NEVER a member. She was called as a guest. She was OFFICIALLY made an Avenger in issue #4 as WARBIRD. She no longer had her Binary powers when she was inducted into the Avengers.

If by the Kree Captain Marvel, then yes the Avengers would have the upper hand. If by the black female Captain Marvel, then no the Avengers would still lose.

Thor DOES NOT possess lightspeed superspeed. The Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe : Avengers says so. If your website source is marvel.com I would advise disregarding it because the site has a lot of bugs. They gave the Juggernaut "Super-Genius" intelligence stat. It says in the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe : Avengers and I quote "By spinning Mjolinir in a circle, Thor can open portals to other dimensions and locations" This is his teleportation power. Honestly, have you have seen Thor run around like the Flash or hit his opponents with lightning fast blows. Remember Hyperion? Why didn't Thor employ his superspeed during that battle? Or during the Ultron battle? Or any other battle?

And you STILL haven't replied to the argument concerning Dr. Fate's magic nor MM's telepathy.

Draco69
Joined: (As Ms. Marvel) Avengers vol. 1, #183
Re-Joined: (As Warbird) Avengers vol. 3 #4; #26 (following her court martial)
Resigned: (As Ms. Marvel) Avengers vol. 1, #200 (As Warbird) Avengers vol. 3, #7
Team Roster: (As Ms. Marvel) Captain America, Scarlet Witch, Thor, Iron Man, Wonder Man, Vision, Wasp, Yellowjacket, Falcon, Beast, Hawkeye & Jocasta. (As Warbird) Captain America, Scarlet Witch, Iron Man, Vision, Hawkeye, Wasp, Hank Pym, Thor, Justice, Firestar, She-Hulk, Triathlon & Silverclaw.

Tron
Don't take this the wrong way Cube, but your Dc knowledge is kinda limited isn't it? I'll admit, mines is too, but, I know enough about most of the characters to know that they'd give the Avengers far more hell than you're making it out to be. Especially the members I mentioned in my last post. Oh, and Draco's pretty much correct about what the JLA members are capable of. They can easily do the things he mentioned they can.

Tron
True, we are a little biased somewhat, but I still know when my favorite character's beat, whether by a lot or a little. And I didn't forget the guys you mentioned, I purposely left them out. They're good, but they'd still get dropped by most of the JLA members.

Draco already explained Dr. Fate, so I won't repeat it. And, Hulk bending adamantium, that was retconned as secondary adamantium, which is cheaper and less costly than true adamantium. Iron Man and Thor have dealt with that kind of adamantium also. True adamantium has yet to be significantly damaged. And true, maybe Flash won't see Sue, but what makes you think she'll see Flash? And, what makes you think she'll be fast enough to catch him in a forcefield? If she was a problem invisible, and no doubt she would be, Martian Manhunter or Fate can deal with her as Draco said.

And although I have to look it up for proper issues since I know you'll ask for it. Martian Manhunter DID finally get rid of his fear of fire a while ago, it's been explained many times throughout this forum.

Tron
And since when does Thor move at lightspeed? While being pulled by Mjolnir, I doubt it but it would be understandable. But, you're certainly not saying he's that fast on his own, cause he's never displayed that kind of speed on foot to my knowledge.

I will admit, I might be wrong, but like I said, I've never seen him use that kind of speed in a fight.

Tron
Okay, Cube, to find out about Martian Manhunter's former fear of fire, check out JLA: Trial by Fire, issues #84 through 89.

ScarletSpider
Draco, just let him have Binary. She was never on the roster, I grant you that, but there are other powerful Avengers he should have chosen, but didn't, i.e. Captain Mar-Vell, Quasar, Sersi, Moon Dragon (who could have used her telepathic powers to stalemate MM), Starfox, Wonder Man Starhawk (and other guardians of the Galaxy) Vision, Living Lightning, Mantis and Whizzer wink.

Don't Sue Richard's force fields block telepathy?

Also, the Human Torch on the roster is Jim Hammond, I presume? As Johnny Storm was never an Avenger. If so, look at what Hammond can currently do, while unable to flame on, he has advanced pyro-kinetic control that he had never exhibited in his earlier "life". He has caused an entire army to spontaneously combust and explode. Being an android, he is resistant to telepathy.

Also, towards the end, before Bendis decided to be an ass, Scarlet Witch had advanced control over her powers and had trained in magic. She has used her hexes to instantaneously age things thousands of years so they turn to dust, evacuate air from a given area and more. Look at the Red Zone where she displayed some powerful abilities. And then look at she was capable with when she was off her nut, warping reality and creating people out of thin air. She doesn't just rely on her mutant abilities, but has honed them with seperate magic abilities, and towards the end her hexes were very reliable.

Draco69
Sue's force fields do not block telepathy. Psylocke once took her out with her telepathy.

Binary should not be on the team because she was never an Avenger and plus its completely unfair to the JLA. She could give Galactus a run for his money. And there are many powerful League members he could have used like Captain Marvel, Orion, Barda, Mr. Miracle, Triumph, and Zatanna, not to mention the entire GL Corps. The Avengers are outmatched.

Cosmic Cube thought that Johnny Storm was an Avenger. He didn't know about the original Human Torch.The original Human Torch was powerful but he still out of his league. MM isn't vulnerable to fire anymore so he could just take him out the old-fashioned way.

Scarlet Witch (before Bendis' disaster makeover) is nowhere near the league of Dr. Fate. Dr. Strange took out Scarlet Witch at her best. He and Dr. Fate are on the same level. Dr. Fate has eons of magical experience and has control over all magics (including reality-warping magics).

Cosmic Cube
To Tron: You are right, My DC comic knowledge is limited. I underestimated many of the Justice League Members. Draco is also correct. Though Binary could take the entire JLA singlehandedly, she was never an integral of the Avengers. So, I've revamped the Avenger's roster.

Captain America
Captain Mar-vell
Wonder Man
Thor
Vision
Hulk
Iron Man
Dr. Druid
She Hulk
Sersi
Moon Dragon
Spiderman
SpiderWoman
Firestar
Living Lightning
Scarlet Witch
Namor
Mr. Fantastic
Invisible Woman
Gilgamesh

Make any necessary changes to the Justice League Roster.

Cosmic Cube
Marvel.com does have bugs but they aren't so bad that the information is irretrievable. (Besides, the bug is mainly on the ability chart, it says Thor has godlike speed under his powers.) If you choose one character, then choose another, sometimes you will get the previous character's ability stats on the current characters profile.

theflyxx
After much thought and consideration, I'm going with the Avengers on this one.

Cosmic Cube
Thor can fly at lightspeed on earth using Mjolnir, and at warp speed in space. He does not twirl Mjolnir to teleport, he does so to shield himself. Wonder Woman surely could not go toe to toe with him. Thor would tear open a dimensional rift with Mjolnir and toss Wonder Woman into it.

Draco69
New Justice League Roster in Response to New Avengers League Roster:


Superman
Batman
Flash
Wonder Woman
Martian Manhunter
Green Lantern
Coldcast
Aquaman
Firestorm
Major Disaster
Dr. Fate
Zatanna
Triumph
Orion
Big Barda
Manitou Raven
Captain Marvel
Captain Atom
Metamorpho
Hourman III (Tyler)

Draco69
Thor DOES twirl his hammer to teleport. Thor CAN reach lightspeed in space however an enchantment by Odin prevents him from doing so on Earth. (Has anyone seen him going lightspeed crazy on an opponent lately?)

Cosmic Cube
I'm not familiar with Coldcast, Major Disaster, Zatanna, Triumph Big Barda Manitou Raven Captain Atom Metamorphom or Hourman. Elaborate on them or direct me to a JLA site please.

Cosmic Cube
I've had a hard time finding DC sites with power listings, and my DC knowledge is limited.

Cosmic Cube
Thor executed lightspeed attacks using Mjolnir against Helium in the old comics. Odin isn't even the king of Asgard anymore. You are talking about the old Thor. Thor is the King of Asgard now, and has no power restrictions.

Draco69

Cosmic Cube
I know the Marvel website has bugs, but it says Thor does possess lightspeed. (level seven is the highest speed level attainable.) I would be able to detect a bug. If the information consistantly appears, it is the true stat.

Draco69
Zatanna

Source : http://www.mykey3000.com/cosmicteams/profiles/zatanna.html

Giovanni "John" Zatara was born on March 10, 1919. Descended from a long line of magicians and mystics, Zatara also became a powerful mage. At the age of fifteen, he receives a box of magic tricks from his grandfather, and began practicing stage magic. (DC Special Blue Ribbon Digest #5, Secret Origins #27) Using only his last name, he became a stage magician and crime fighter and debuted early in the Golden Age of heroes. He was a contemporary of the likes of Dr. Occult and Sargon. (Action #1) He occasionally teamed up with other mystics, and during World War II, he also joined the super-hero community in the All-Star Squadron. (All-Star Squadron #59)

Thirty years ago, Zatara met Sindella of the Homo magi race in Turkey. They relocated to America and their daughter, Zatanna, was born within a year. Several months later, Sindella faked her death in a car crash to spare Zatanna from being captured by the Homo magi. (Justice League of America #164)

Zatanna also had a romantic relationship with John Constantine, which began when they first studied magic together. As Zatanna was still a teenager, Zatara always disapproved of this union; he felt his daughter deserved a better, smarter, more heroic man than Constantine. They broke up following an incident in Newcastle, where he destroyed the demon, Nergal with the help of three Angels. After this, Constantine was committed to a mental asylum.

When she was only eighteen years old, Zatanna's father was cursed by an evil elemental known Allura. Since the nature of Allura's curse was such that both Zatanna and Zatara would die if the two ever set eyes on one another again, Zatara decided to leave Earth and travel among various mystical realms in order to protect his daughter. When she noticed her father was missing, however, Zatanna began a lengthy search for him. With the help of the Justice League, Zatanna finally located her father in the mystic dimension of Kharma and helped Allura's heroic counterpart to force her evil twin to remove the curse. (#51)

Zatanna teamed with the JLA several more times (#87, 100) before becoming a member. She joined after helping the JLA battle the War lock of Ys, one of Green Lantern's old nemeses, (Justice League of America #161) and remained a member until just before the Martian Manhunter dissolved the Justice League after Professor Ivo began systematically murdering its members. (#257)

Eventually, Zatanna went in search of her mother as well. She discovered the hidden Homo magi society, who had enslaved Sindella. Sindella committed suicide to destroy in order to save Zatanna from the same fate. (#162-165)

It is said that Zatanna is made up of pure magic, and she is considered one of the most formidable mages on the planet. For a time, she lost a great deal of this power (#191) Just before she left the JLA, Zatanna mystically merged with the "Godhead," the collective consciousness of all beings, living and dead. She believed that this event would change her life forever. Perhaps it did; when she next appeared, it appeared that her magical abilities were back at full strength. (World's Finest #277, Spectre v.2 #7)

Zatanna and her father were part of a large collection of Earth's sorcerers assembled by John Constantine to battle the primordial Shadow Creature that threatened Heaven itself, a battle which cost Zatara his life. (Swamp Thing #50) Zatanna blamed Constantine for Zatara's death and the two parted bitterly. Zatanna also aided the Spectre against the alien sorcerer known as Wotan, (Spectre #7) and battled Felix Faust along side Dr. Mist. (Secret Origins #27)

Zatanna now operates on the fringes of the metahuman world. Although she has returned to active JLA duty, she has occasionally acted in reserve capacity, and she was appointed liaison between the JLA and the Sentinels of Magic. (JLA #68, JLA: Black Batptism #4) She craves the limelight and has built a successful national stage show. At times, she still encounters Constantine, but it is clear that they are now just friends. (Books of Magic v.1, Zatanna: Everyday Magic)

Zatara and Zatanna descend from a distinguished line of ancestors including: Leonardo da Vinci; Nicholas Flamel (who is still alive ; Nostradamus; Cagliostro (a.k.a. Joseph Balsamo, Guiseppe Balsamo, also still alive); Luigi Zatara (grandfather of Zatara) and Evan Fulcanelli (unknown relationship to Zatara, described as an "uncle" of Zatanna, deceased).


NOTES: The exact date of Zatara's debut is subject to debate. His origin was first told in DC Special Blue Ribbon Digest #5 (March 1980), which cites November 14, 1938. The History of the DC Universe #1 confirms the year. Later, Secret Origins #27 retold the origin using the date September 1, 1939.

Exactly when Zatanna regained her powers is debatable. They were back in World's Finest #277 (3.82). But the letter column of JLofA #260 (3.87) claims she got them back in Swamp Thing #50 (7.86). The Justice League Sourcebook states that they returned in JLofA #257.

Zatara also appeared in a pre-Crisis Earth-1 tale where he met the young Clark Kent at age 3 (New Adventures of Superboy #14, 2.81) and later as Superboy (age 16, #49, 1.84)

P O W E R S

Both Zatara and Zatanna have the power to manipulate magical forces by means of words spoken backwards. (However, this may only be optional in Zatanna's case; she uses that method in honor of her father, and as a concentration aid.) In addition, both Zatara and Zatanna are excellent stage magicians, prestidigitators and escape artists. Zatanna can basically do anything as long as she says it backwards. (i.e synnubs knip otin nrut sregnevA llA / All Avengers turn into pink bunnies)

Draco69
Captain Atom

Source of History : http://www.mykey3000.com/cosmicteams/profiles/captainatom.html


In the sixties, Captain Nathaniel Adam, USAF, was tried and convicted of treason, despite his protests that he had been framed. The sentence for his supposed crime was death, but the Air Force offered Adam a full pardon if he would take part in a top secret research project. For the project, Adam had to allow himself to be wrapped up in a cocoon composed of an alien alloy captured from a crash-landed spacecraft. The entire cocoon was then placed on top of a Hydrogen bomb, which was promptly detonated. Apparently, the scientists were hoping to learn about the properties and resilience of the alloy.

This experiment ended with Nathaniel Adam being utterly vaporized, and the alien alloy along with him. Or so it seemed at the time. The bomb really created two entities, both of which identified themselves as Nathaniel Adam. The new entity was composed entirely of the alien alloy; he was blown through the "quantum field" and rematerialized nearly twenty years into the future. This "Adam" emerged endowed with great atomic super-powers derived from the alloy itself. The original Adam became stranded in a void, where over decades, he slowly regained control of himself and tapped his own considerable super-powers.

Upon this startling reappearance, Adam was reunited with General Wade Eiling, the man who had presided over his original court martial board. Eiling offered Adam a deal: if he would work as a super-powered operative for the US Government, he would receive a full pardon for all of his earlier offenses; if not, he would be executed. The government then invented an elaborate background and history for Captain Atom that omitted all of his military connections and presented him to the unsuspecting public as the newest superhero sensation.

From this point on, the Captain began using the name Cameron Scott in private, an identity that is part of the government's cover-up. (Captain Atom #1) Shortly after the latest incarnation of the Justice League went international, Uncle Sam decided that it wanted to have a man on the inside who could secretly keep the military posted on JLI activities. The ideal man for this job, of course, was Captain Atom, who was accepted into the League after some US Government bigwigs pulled a few strings. (Justice League International #7) Atom's brief career in the Justice League has been so distinguished that he was selected to command the army of Earth's heroes that repelled the Dominator's recent invasion. (Invasion! #2) Captain Atom currently heads up the European branch of the JLI. (Justice League International #24, Justice League Europe #1)

Captain Atom finally left the government's service, having come to a shaky agreement with General Eiling. In public, Captain Atom clung to the government's invented cover history in order to avoid embarrassment. (Captain Atom Annual #1) Originally, he kept many of his personal secrets from the Justice League. He never confided that his public origin was false, and even lied to the Blue Beetle to secure his help, telling the Beetle that he'd worked with the original Blue Beetle. With the help of Beetle, Booster Gold and Mister Miracle, Captain Atom managed to solve the twenty-year-old mystery of his frame-up, clearing his name once and for all. (Captain Atom #27-29) Eventually, after having broken his ties to the Air Force, Atom revealed his true background to the League. (JLI Annual #3) In particular, Blue Beetle's respect for the Captain was diminshed following this revelation.

For his superior performance leading the Earth's superhero forces against the Dominator invasion, Captain Atom was reinstated in the military and promoted to major. (Invasion! #2) Captain Atom's military background came in handy as the leader of Justice League Europe. Though he never really managed to endeared himself to his JLE subordinates, many in the Justice League still looked to him for decisive direction. He stayed with the JLE until the Armageddon event, in which he was believed to have been killed by Monarch's bomb. However, the two were blown into the past. Cap returned in the midst of the Overmaster's arrival and he was asked to lead a group called the League Busters against the JLI. (JLE #65)

After this, he returned to Justice League service, but because of clashing ideologies with Wonder Woman, he split from the JLI to form his own branch, known for its brand of "Extreme Justice." In the course of their adventures Cap discovered the true nature of his origins, that he was in fact a quantum duplicate of Nathaniel Adam. (Extreme Justice #13) The original Adam resurfaced as a vengeful adversary, Monarch II. (EJ #0, 6) After learning about this, Cap confidently adopted the name of Cameron Scott permanently. Extreme Justice soon disbanded and shortly thereafter he married Bette San Souci, the former super-villain called Plastique. (He mentioned as his new "wife" and tried out a new costume during the formation of a new hero group: the L.A.W.) Captain Atom and Plastique first met as adversaries (Captain Atom #2), but after discovering each others' capacity for self-sacrifice (#8), they began to grow closer. (He proposed to her in #50).

Captain Atom maintains an active career, serving on many fronts. He maintains JLA reserve status and has ties to the loose-knit organization called the L.A.W. From time to time, he is also called upon directly by the U.S. government. (Superman/Batman #1-4) Most recently he has accepted Maxwell Lord's offer to regroup with his original Justice League comrades in the Superbuddies. Almost immediately, the team was abducted by Roulette, and under the villain's control, Captain Marvel II pummeled Cap nearly to death. He was taken to S.T.A.R. Labs, under whose care he presumably recovered. (Formerly...)

Captain Atom made the ultimate sacrifice, however, in defiance of his country and President (Luthor). Knowing that Superman would not be able to stop an oncoming kryptonite meteor, Atom manned the ship that would decimate the fragment. In doing so, he apparently perished. (Superman/Batman #6) However, since Atom has in the past been "killed" in explosions, only to be revealed as having been thrown to another time period. Given that he could survive a nuclear explosion, anything is possible.

Source for Powers : http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/c/capatom2.htm

Captain Atom's powers are derived entirely from the alien alloy that has merged with his body; by covering his body with this alloy at will he gains the standard set of superhero powers (flight, super strength, and invulnerability) and several others. Captain Atom has an energy absorption power that's second to none in the DCU, he is able to absorb just about any form of energy and store it in his person; however, if he absorbs too much at any given time he will more-or-less skip into the near future.

Captain Atom can also fire "atomic energy blasts" from his hands, which aren't nearly as destructive as they sound. By all accounts Captain Atom is one of the most powerful superheroes in the DCU, easily outstripping Superman in some respects.

Draco69
To Cosmic Cube:

Thor has never utlized his supposed lightspeed in combat. Ultron? Never used it. Hyperion? Never used it. Count Nefaria? Never used it. The Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe: Avengers clearly states that Thor does not have lightpeed except through teleportation. That's why Level 7 stands for "warp speed" Warp = teleportation.

Draco69
New Thor is dead (kinda who knows what the hell happened to him). Godforce Thor was not an Avenger officially. In fact we haven't seen Thor in an Avengers comic for several years. We have to use Old Thor. Old Thor is still incredibly powerful.

Cosmic Cube
Just send links, I'll visit each site.
Thor's Marvel profile does not say that he has "warp speed." It says he possesses godlike speed. I doubt the magician girl would be powerful enough to Thor into a pink bunny, in fact Dr. Druid could easily put a stop to that spell.

Draco69
Big Barda

Source : http://www.starnet-database.com/dbase_deo/profiles/barda/barda.html

Overview: Big Barda is a warrior from the planet Apokolips, raised and bred for battle. Armed with her city destroying Mega-rod, her enigmatic motherbox and her near-divine nature, Barda battles to protect the Earth, from her once-patron and now mortal enemy, Darkseid.

Barda has been recently sent back to Earth to control the extremely powerful and emotionally unstable Dog of War, Orion, Son of Darkseid. She and Orion have been sent to Earth by the new Highfather, Takion, to protect the Earth from an as yet unknown menace and have allied themselves with the new Justice League and bringing their fierce combative natures, incredible power and advanced technology to the League.


History: First child to one of Darkseid's special breeders, Barda was stolen from her mother and placed into a generation matrix to enhance her already extraordinary birthright as a member of the New Gods. Further trained in the firepits of Apokolips, first as a dog soldier of Darkseid and later as an elite member of the fearsome Female Furies, and then lead by the tyrannical Granny Goodness, Barda came to be known as the fiercest warrior that Granny Goodness had ever created. Later, fallling in love with and marrying the super escape artist, Scott Free, also known as Mister Miracle, Barda retired from the life of a warrior and settled into a quiet life away from battle. Life as a housewife did not last long as the two were constantly drawn back into the fray against the machinations of Darkseid and eventually the two returned to New Genesis to live.

Special Powers/Abilities
The beings of New Genesis themselves Gods and live outside of normal time and space in a realm called the Fourth World. These New Gods have evolved due to their close proximity to the Source, a primeaval energy, believed to be one of the ultimate foundations of the Universal Expression of Energy, along with their superior technology, into beings of genetic stability and evolutionary perfection. The denizens of New Genesis are stronger, faster, and smarter than homo sapiens, despite their resemblance to the same. It is believed that there is a connection between the Fourth World and the Third World (our universe) but that connection has yet to be completely explored. Since there are physical similarities, perhaps the races of the Fourth World help populate the planets of the Third World at an earlier time in the history of the Universe.

Super Strength: Barda's super strength comes from her heritage as a member of New Genesis, where all of the people of that realm are genetically superior to normal humans in their physical characteristics. She was later augmented by Darkseid to further increase her strength and stamina twenty-fold. Barda's strength is nearly on the order of Wonder Woman's lifting weights weighing nearly fifty tons.

Endurance/Stamina: Barda's superhuman endurance has been trained by being a dog soldier of Apokolips and later the leader of the Female Furies. Barda's physiology allows her to process her biological wastes more efficently and as such can function at her peak efficiency for a much longer time than a normal human. With her advanced combat training, she is superior to even members of the New Gods who have not received such training.

Weapons and Tools: The Mega-Rod: Barda's signature weapon, no other has ever been seen. Its origin is unknown, and its powers are vast and numerous. It's primary ability is to project energy (of an unknown nature and origin) against whatever Barda hits with the Mega-Rod. The amount of damage able to be done has been sufficient to demolish an entire building.

She may also use it to project beams of force, sufficient to drive back even Orion, the most fearsome of the New Gods. It has been seen to create crude barriers of force, absorb energies directed at it or its wielder, and to create the interdimensional gateways called Boom-Tubes used by the dwellers in New Genesis/Apokolips dimension to visit this one. A boom-tube may also be used to travel within this dimension if the traveller knows both locations or has a Mother Box in the other location to lock onto.

The Mother Box: The true nature of these living computers/beings is unknown. Called Mother Boxes by their users/partners, these beings/devices possess wonderous powers and abilities not understood even by their users. How they came to be involved with the beings of New Genesis is not known. Mother Boxes have sacrificed themselves for causes they have believed in and are greatly respected by the people of New Genesis, speaking of them as loving, living entitites in the shape of a small box worn much like a common day pager on Earth.

Mother Boxes have been seen to: Access the Energy of the Source for various effects, change the gravitational constant of an area, transfer energy from one place to another, control the mental state of a host, communicate telepathically with a host or other life form, manipulate the life-force of a host to sustain it past fatal injuries, open or close boom-tubes, take over and control non-sentient machines, evolve non-sentient machines, merge sentient beings into a single more powerful being, sustain a life form in a hostile environment such as space, and many others. Mother Boxes have an affinity for the Source and are believed to draw their power it.

Please wait for the others.

Cosmic Cube
I picked up a couple of telepaths as you can see, so Martian Manhunter wouldn't be a major threat, especially not to Moon Dragon.

Draco69
Zatanna is infinitely more powerful than Dr. Druid. She's near Doctor Strange's level.

Draco69
Just the links this time :

Metamorpho

http://www.mykey3000.com/cosmicteams/profiles/metamorpho.html

Cosmic Cube
Zatanna is not a Supreme Sorcerer. Her profile says she's an accomplished stage magician, with nowhere near the amount of magical experience as Strange. If she isn't the most powerful magician in DC, she is nowhere near Dr. Strange's level. You said the same of Dr. Fate. Both statements are questionable.

Cosmic Cube
Besides, I suppose she could be overcome by telepathy, or knocked out before she can utter any magical words.

Draco69
I couldn't find anything on Hourman III. But from what limited information I read he is an android from the 853rd Century with time sight (i.e. he can see things before they happen) and time control. He's kinda like a person who's already seen a movie on a VCR and controls the remote. Ya know, fast forward, backward, pause, etc. He can also time travel to any timeline. But he can only do it for 1 hour per day.

Draco69
Not if MM's shielding her mind. And please don't say that Dr. Druid is a better telepath than MM. He's very low-level.

Cosmic Cube
Moon Dragon is a better telepath.

Draco69
Triumph aka DC Magneto:

http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/forums/archive/index.php/t-26800.html

Draco69
Moon Dragon IS NOT a better telepath. MM is better than Charles Xavier for God's Sake. Search for the Telepathic Battle : Martian Manhunter vs. Professor X thread. You'll see what he is capable of there.

Cosmic Cube
I assume the Justice League task force is the Justice League?

Draco69
Last ONE: smile

Manitou Raven comes from around 1000BCE in a time that has been labelled the Obsidian Age. He is a native American from a tribe that would one day become the Apache tribe. Little is known of his early life or how he came to be one of the planet's most powerful mages. He met and fell in love with his wife after she set fire to his house and burned it to the ground. He was so impressed with her rebellious nature and defiance that he pursued her.

Manitou was later recruited by Rama Khan and Gamemnae, the rulers of Atlantis, to join a collection of heroes from around the world and from rival societies in forming a multicultural 'League of Ancients.' The purpose of the League was to combat a seven headed hydra that Gamemnae had foretold would come through time and destroy their world. Gamemnae had conjured this to serve her own ends as she knew that the JLA would defeat her plans of world conquest.

Manitou came to the 21st century to fulfil Gamemnae's wishes. Plaguing the JLA'ers dreams and attacking them with flocks of ravens, Manitou, along with Tezumak, tried to destroy the JLA. Luring them away by dissolving himself and Tezumak into leaves, Manitou cast a spell that returned him to his 1004BCE home where he could warn Gamemnae that the JLA had followed them back in time. During the ensuing battle with the JLA, Manitou learnt the truth of Gamemnae's deception.

Convincing the JLA to sacrifice themselves and commit their souls to him, Manitou escaped Gamemnae, who was planning on absorbing all the League of Ancients' souls into her body. Plotting with Aquaman, Manitou set about saving the JLA by returning to the 21st century and reanimating their bodies, enabling them to battle Gamemnae with the contingency JLA. Raven aided the JLA defeating Gamemnae by casting a containment spell around Atlantis whilst the contingency league defeated her. Manitou elected to remain in the 21st century with Dawn and was recommended for JLA membership by Jason Blood.

Manitou and Dawn immersed themselves in 21st century culture. Manitou lowered his age to be closer to Dawn's and the two went to research his history. He visited a reservation casino on his old tribe's land at a place called the 'ground of four fingers'.

Manitou was instrumental in helping the Martian Manhunter remove the curse of the Burning Martian from his sole. It was his magic that allowed himself, the Atom and Major Disaster to enter the spiritual plain where his soul was bound to the Burning Martian and convince him to fight the influence.

Manitou is an incredibly experienced and powerful magician. He wields a variety of different implements in conducting his magic. He possesses a dreamcatcher which keeps history and secrets that others forget. His medicine stick is unbreakable and is a manifestation of his spirit. His headdress sings with ancient knowledge. His hatchet will not pierce the skin of a good man. Manitou has shown an ability to cast spells that reanimate the dead, grow to enormous heights, transfer souls, travel to the soul plane, fire powerful mystic bolts, time travel, summon flocks of ravens and exhibit control over people's emotions.

Draco69
There were MANY Justice Leagues. Task Force was one of them. The Leagues all acted under JLA

Cosmic Cube
I participated in the thread. It ended because Professor Xavier cannot affect Martian Manhunter because he cannot affect shapeshifters or intangibles. Martian Manhunter was not proven to be a better telepath.

Draco69
Repost :

Believe it or not, Martian Manhunter is a stronger and more adept telepath than Charles Xavier. MM is capable of mind-reading, astral projection, psi-bolts, and mindwiping just like Charles Xavier is. However, there are a few things in favor of our favorite Gumby.

When Charles Xavier first discovered his mutant powers, he endeavored to train himself in the use of his powers. MM on the other hand is quite different. The Martian society that MM grew up has thousands of years of culture and advancement. The Martians were all telepathic and developed new and different techniques as years passed on. MM absorbed all of these techniques instantly via telepathy. MM's brain virtually houses thousands of years of telepathic techniques, battle strategies, and training. Charles Xavier was self-taught. MM is capable of connecting with every sentient person on Earth. Charles is incapable of this action without the aid of Cerebra. MM once mindwiped 70 different people around the globe simultaneously, including Lex Luthor. Charles Xavier exhausted himself mindwiping ONE (i.e. Magneto). MM has literally everyone of his peoples', from the beginning of his race to the end, telepathic prowess, experience, and techniques. Charles Xavier only has his experiences. MM takes this one without a doubt.

And MM did not use any of his powers during the battle. He was only using his telepathy. Not shapechanging nor intangibility. AND if you read my arguments, you'd see that Moon Dragon is nowhere near MM's league in telepathy.

Cosmic Cube
Draco, I read the post. You don't know of Moon Dragon's power. Xavier is earth's strongest telepath. Moon Dragon didn't live on earth, and she's much more powerful than Xavier. Moon Dragon was trained by the Eternals of Titan (Thanos's race) who also possess telepathy. She once defeated the cosmic entity Dragon of the Moon soley with her mind. After defeating it, her power exceeded every Titanian. Odin had to force her to wear a mental restraint. Later on she absorbed the Dragon of the Moon, possessing its power and her own. THEN she got the Shi'ar mind gem. Martian Manhunter doesn't stand a chance.

Cosmic Cube
http://www.avengersforever.org/characters/characters.asp?cID=31
Here's a link. These are her abilities without the Dragon of the Moon. You'll find that she's much more powerful than Martian Manhunter

Draco69
I read up on her. She's more powerful than MM. I concede.

Xavier's a telepathic flunkie then!

Cosmic Cube
sort of...

Cosmic Cube
But with Cerebro, he's better than Moondragon... maybe... maybe not.

Draco69
Who knows? I don't recall them ever meeting each other. It would be nice if they battled each other.

Cosmic Cube
Perhaps. But I seriously doubt Xavier could overcome the Shiar Mind Gem and The Dragon of The Moon conjunctively, even with Cerebro.

Draco69
Agreed

Cosmic Cube
The Dragon of the Moon could easily kill everyone on earth. That's why Odin restrained Moon Dragon's power after she absorbed it.

Draco69
But Moon Dragon should not have this Dragon of the Moon power nor the Shiar Mind Gem for the battle. It would seriously be unfair to the JLAers. She should be at her normal power levels like everyone else: JLA and Avengers alike.

Cosmic Cube
When she joined the Avengers she had already absorbed the Dragon of the Moon. She had done this before Thanos killed everyone on Titan. She got the Mind Gem later on, but she was an Avenger when she procured it from Adam Warlock.

Taking the Shiar Mind Gem would be like taking the ring enhancements of Oa from Green Lantern. But taking the Dragon of the Moon would be like taking away the ring from GL, (though on a much larger scale.)

Draco69
If Moon Dragon can have the Shiar Mind Gem, (I'll allow the Dragon of the Moon) Than Green Lantern can have his power enhancement of the ring and be ION.

Cosmic Cube
I suppose.

Cosmic Cube
If he was Ion while in the Justice League.

Draco69
He was.

Tron
No, actually it's not the same. Take the mind gem from Moon Dragon, and she's still a telepath regardless. Take the GL ring from Hal Jordan, then he's just Hal Jordan. Moon Dragon has her power with or without the gem, any and every Green Lantern does not. Two totally different things there.

And if Kyle is Ion, then that alone is complete ownage over the Avengers.

Draco69
True.

Cosmic Cube
Tron,

Moon Dragon is far more than a telepath. I said if you take the power of The Dragon of The Moon from Moon Dragon, that would be like taking the ring from Hal. Hal had the ring when he joined the JLA, Moon Dragon had the Dragon of the Moon before she became an Avenger. She would have to have The Dragon of The Moon.

Ion would own the Avengers? Do the forcefields block telepathic attack?

Draco69
Ion was more powerful than Parallax. He could do ANYTHING. And yes regardless of whether he is Ion or Green Lantern the ring was programmed to automatically protect him from telepathic attacks.

Cosmic Cube
I have no idea of who Parallax is. However, Ion seems that he would be quite a potent member of the JLA. But I dont think that equals ownage. Wonder Man is uninhibited by force fields.

Draco69
You don't understand. Ion is basically the Silver Surfer x3.

Cosmic Cube
He has the energy manipulation, matter manipulation, and force blasts? Why the hell did he need a team, then?

<< THERE IS MORE FROM THIS THREAD HERE >>