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Last night on CNN the Pentagon reported that so far 5000 American soldiers have deserted their ranks and headed to Canada.

I found it funny that a reporter said that we have no problem coming to our country because we're "a bunch of peace-niks".

Not much time was devoted to the reasons that they were deserting, or that many of the deserters are long time servicemen and woman with previous combat experience. Seems like most of the time was spent on talking about how Canada is accepting them (and insinuating that we are somehow anti American).

Any thoughts?

good for them. i respect their decision. they are being used and exploited
for profit and i think its great that they have said a collective "f*** you" to this administration.

now here come all the armchair patriots to tell us how they are traitors and blah blah blah. i ask any of them if they ever served their country in a war.

as far as I know the US military is not a conscript army, and as long as you choose to join it you have to stick by that decision and fulfill the contract. So due to the fact that they contracted themselves to serve US and then desert that contract it aint nothing but treason, if US had had a draft it would be a different matter altogether.

If it were purely a contractual problem that contract may be void. What about the gov't breaking their own contracts by making soldiers stay longer than they were originally contracted to? There is also an agreement that the gov't won't put their military in a situation that would cause unnecessary harm. If the gov't has illegally extended their soldier's tours, and put them in an unnecessarily harmful situation, then hasn't the gov't not lived up to it's side of the contract?

The government would have no hesitation in using and abusing, I say good for those soldiers. Treason? Please.... they do more than is necessary and get no respect or appreciation, they're nothing but a stat. Then suddenly they decide it's about time they said 'f.uck this', and it's all about the treason.

I agree if a solider is contracted for so many turns it should be equally respected by both parts, now as the situation is when a soldier jump ship his7hers place have to be filled. The newcomer might not be as well trained as the one deserting, this leads to that the desertion actually makes problems for their comrade in arms and they actually put them in a situation of unnecessary harm.
What they need to do is file a motion toward the government for breaking the contract. Soldiers who do this in public will get killer ass attention, this might have a negative influence on the moral of the troops abroad though just as much as desertion do.

But a contract is a thing that should be respected equally by both sides, now are all 5000 of the deserters a victim of this or did some just get scared shitless during the first hostile fire.

point number one... I don't know about the yanks, but in this country a soldier makes an oath that during his term in the army, navy or airforce he will obey the commands given by those placed above him... in other words, no deserting unless ordered too.... if you're scared of being sent to a war zone, don't join the army!! A friend of mine is a captain in the Royal Marines, and every time he and his men are sent into a war zone, they are given a piece of paper which they can sign to opt out and leave the marines.... all his men just chuck them in the bin... he's served in Yugoslavia, Kuwait, Belize, Northern Ireland and he was in Iraq blowing up communications lines the day before war was officially declared.....

Point number two.... its a bit rich the Americans calling the Cannucks "peaceniks!!" The Canadians were in the First World War three years before America decided to come in, and they were fighting on all fronts in WWII from 1939.... beating the Yanks by a little over two years..... plus who ever remembers the Canadian contribution to the Korean War, and to numerous UN peacekeeping missions...

Why do people join the army then in time of war run?

I actually agree. they broke a contract. Tey are not heroes at all. Why the **** did they join the army? I mean I don't join ours since I don't like to be shot.

Because, as several people have mentioned already, the government is hardly living up to their end of the agreement. They've been sent into the worst possible conditions, and then when their time over there is up, that they need to stay longer. That's pretty ****ed up. Despite the fact that they DID sign up to be in the army, I can hardly say I blame them. It's a tough one...

They should have known what they were getting into when they signed up. That really pisses me off.. I hope they dont let those pieces of shit back into America.

Good for them, I'm sure they can have a very nice peaceful life in Canada without the fear of crazy Iraqis shooting at them.

After living in Canada I dont think they'll want to come back.

good.

No, you're missing my point completely. Being told that you have to stay in some shithole being shot at six months longer than you were originally told is not what they signed up for, idiot.

That is no reason to desert..omg you have to stay there for a little longer god forbid. jesus christ since when did people in this world become such pussies? They singed up for it, they have to deal with it.

Yeah, you go live in Iraq for a year and a half in 130 degree heat with a bunch of nutjobs trying to kill you and then tell me that, mmm'kay?

I didnt sign up to do it.. they did. And if I did join the army and was sent there I would deal with it not run to Canada.

More people should desert, then maybe this stupid war would end.

I guess the Army is becoming like any regular job. You don't like it so you quit. Great! Good thing the army isn't like a Union shop.

why do so many assume that these soldiers desert out of cowardice?
perhaps they just feel like they are being f'ed over by a reckless commander in chief? some of these people seem to have a very strong opinion on this war and that is why some refuse to fight it.

but who gives a shit what we think? i would love to hear the opinion in one that has seen action in this war, but unfortunately they are all stuck in that hellhole indefinately

those 'pieces of shit' who have already put their lives on the line for our country you mean?

My cousin was in Iraq

edit: was



You mean the ones that deserted to Canada? and put the other soldiers lives at risk even more?

Wait.. are the people fleeing to Canada people that have already served, or just people who are in the army and have been called to go to Iraq?

they didnt desert the battlefield dude, they just didnt answer the call.
nobody's life was risked in such action.

people who have served in the gulf (first war) are being called back.

Peoples lives were still at risk.. by not answering the call they are gonna be making units going on Patrols in Iraq possibly smaller and more vulnerable(since they might have had to back them up)... how can you say that doesnt put more peoples lives at risk?

I'm really pissed about this

What the hell, I bet at least some of those now would-be Canadians were all against Canada and it's decision not to support the war and such, and probably at one time made comments such as "Whats so good about Canada? The beavers?"

And now that they have nowhere else to go they come here
Talk about being a hypocrite...

Oh well if it's only gulf war veterans who are fleeing then that's a different story.

The gulf ware was what 10 years ago? Obviously if a soldier is still in the army now then they are a career soldier and should be able to deal with it..

RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!!!

in wartime there is no six months only, one have to adapt that the tour of duty might get extended, you get ordered to stay longer thats what military is about following orders. They sign up for military duty, not contracts that say you are going to Iraq for six months, they voluntarily joined the army then they must follow it until they are discharged from duty. Mercenaries have time contracts not ordinary soldiers.

So when they were told they was going to be there for six months they should have known that one cant predict the outcome of an armed conflict precisely, they who are in charge thought it would be a walk in the park, they were wrong thats why the situation for the soldiers is the way it is. Now they need to get into an overlapping rotation of soldiers so that some "veterans" of the conflict are left to teach the newcomers so that the army in Iraq aint a bunch of Rookies that have to go home just when they got the hang of it.

The Bush Administration fed the public lies in order to gain support for the war in Iraq originally; hence the explanation as to why people would enlist in the first place, high strung on the propaganda that serving your country is the 'patriotic' thing to do. Liberating the Iraqi people from a brutal regime, and yet the irony that it is the Iraqi people that were being oppressed by Hussein is the very blood that these soldiers are spilling. This is a war; the victims of such are innocent civilians. Giving them freedom while slaying their children? Such contradiction.

So now these soldiers simply question why they are taking lives and for who? For America's safety? No weapons are found and Iraq had been decimated by two wars in the last two decades; hardly a country worthy enough to threaten the almighty power of the US military(which gets more funding every year at almost $400 billion). For the Iraqi people? The are bodies piling up and the numbers of Iraqis increasing every day. It has become very clear that the Iraqis do not want US occupation. For sacrifice? While the ones who gave up their lives for the cause are given praise, only ephermeral, the wounded and the ones who come back with disabilities, return home to a country which is now 'reforming' Social Security. Hence, the poor served to battle a rich man's war, and now is forgotten and tossed away and left to die on the street, thanks to the diminishment of benefits from the very government they served to 'protect'. Something seems wrong.

How can you still not understand what I'm trying to say? They signed up expecting that they would be sent home after the given period of time, and then they weren't. Like I say, call them pussies all you want, but you can't possibly have any idea what the guys at home about to ship out are thinking when you haven't been in armed combat yourself. Which you haven't.

I can't think of anything to say to this.I am alittle confuse on what you are talking about.jm

Well there are many things I don't rteally understand so far. Were they parts of the army? I mean you said they were veterans but if they are still in the army they mvery much knew this could happen. Then again were they called to go there for the first time or did they want them to stay longer (even though every soldier should know thsat this is possible) Well I really don'T understand all the circumstances but usually I think deserting is bad at least if you joined up.

well, that would be some cases. im sure there are a variety of reasons depending on the soldier. from what i understand though, many of these are career soldiers for the most part, not just some privates gone a.w.o.l.

Friggin cowards

Well fighting a pointless war for a pointless cause. That's something not worth dying for imo. Yes they are sort of cowards however on behalf of Canada, welcome and enjoy our stay. Well canada acepted tens of thousands of draft dodgers in the 60's however they have to come here and seek poltical refuagee status. They have a 90% chance of being acepted here.

IMO iraq is lost as civil war will begin after the elections so the US is trying to get out as fast as possibile now. Odd thing is that Bush wants to get other nations but he can't even stabilize IRAQ forget Iran dumbya!!!

Napalm how many encounters of war you have experienced since you label them cowards

took the words right out of my mouth.
i'm sure napalm has seen some real action
and has every right to call a war veteran a coward

The guys who want this war won't ever think about joining and the ones that join are young people who have no other choice then to join. Well Iraq is your guys mess not Canada's. We are not cowards, we have a governemnt with common sense!!

Actually I am in the army unlike you

Why canada sucks

no im not in the army, but know enough to see that boot camp and WAR are not one and the same. i asked you if you had seen ACTION. si o no?

Not yet Im station in the us right now but If I was in action I would act like some pany hippie and go to canada

wait until you see real action before you pass judgment onto those who have and aint to eager to see it agian.

here here

I know the more left-wing and/or pacifist types will find uit very tempting to see this as a laudable action.

But I think it cannot be stressed strongly enough what a heinous crime desertion is. All it does is give someone ELSE the crap that you selfishly decided to avoid yourself.

There is only one way in which the Government can be held equally to blame here, and that is if in recruiting they didn;t tell them "You are signing up to this army and the moment you do that you are obligated to do as we say." If they didn't do that there is a problem- but they DO.

You have no right to let your personal feelings affect your judgment when called to duty in any army. That's one of the very first rules. You have to accept that you will be called to do things, in service of your state, that you do NOT want to do, as well as things you do. Armies cannot operate on any principle other than the obeying of orders absolutely. If the mentality spreads that you can back out just because you don't feel like it... then the entire system collapses. Every single deserter undermines the armed forces. Every single deserter signed up knowing that he/she was going to be obligated to do things, and as Finti points out, they ALSO knew that tours of duty sometimes get extended. That's not a breach of contract- it is IN the contract that the lengths are flexible.

To maintain an idealisitc opposition to the war is fine- but abandoning your responsibilites and your comrades is not. The founders of the modern day pacifisitc ideal- the First World War poets- made their objections WHILST STILL SERVING, because they understood the concept of responsibility, and of not abandoning others to what you refused to face. And some of them were drafted! For that they get a lot of respect. But if you bug out at the point at which the organisation you signed up to voluntarily to serve to the best of your abilities just when it needs you most... you sacrifice your credibility.

Idealism is no excuse for desertion except in the most heinous of circumstances, which despite what you might want to think, this sure as hell is not.

agreed

If you are actually in the military then perhaps you should have a clue about military history.

WW1

-425 000 Canadians served overseas out of a population of 7,879,000

- Canadian Corps came to be valued as one of the most effective military formations on the Western Front, for they were masters of the grim and hazardous techniques of offensive warfare. Canadians were renowned for their ability to stand against and defeat greater odds and often did not even surrender during chemical attacks

- "The Canadians played a part of such distinction that thenceforward they were marked out as storm troops; for the remainder of the way they were brought along to head the assault in one great battle after another. Whenever the Germans found the Canadian Corps coming into the line they prepared for the worst." - Lloyd George

- At Vimy, the Canadian Corps captured more ground, more prisoners and more guns than any previous British offensive in two-and-a-half years of war. It was one of the most complete and decisive engagements of the Great War and the greatest Allied victory up to that time. The Canadians had demonstrated they were one of the outstanding formations on the Western Front and masters of offensive warfare.

WW2
- For a full year, from June 1940 when France fell until June 1941 when the Germans invaded Russia, Canada was the second largest power in the struggle against Hitler

- The Hitler Line in central Italy was first ruptured by tanks of the Canadian 5th Armoured Division.

- On D-Day, 14,000 Canadians stormed ashore on Juno Beach and were the only force to capture all their initial objectives that day, at a cost of 1000 casualties, of which 350 were fatal.

- The Liberation of Holland was almost entirely a Canadian operation. Still today, the gratitude of the Dutch to Canada is overwhelming.

- By 1944, a quarter of what is usually referred to as the British bomber offensive over Europe was actually Canadian.

- Rommel was effectively put out of the war by Canadian spitfire ace Charley Fox on July 17, 1944, in the north of France

- the 1st Special Service Force (aka the Devil's Brigade or the Black Devils) was made up of Canadian and American soldiers and is recognized as the birth of modern special forces and the elite soldiers of ww2

-Canadians were recognized by the U.S. and british as the best soldiers to lead an attack due to their aggressiveness, superior training and successful records

From the Korean war to almost every major peacekeeping mission Canada has always been recognized for it's admirable and brave service.

Canada has always been one of the first countries to volunteer service to a JUST war.

The technology that was involved in much of the successes of NASA and Skunkworks is due to Canadians who began working there after the termination of the Avro Arrow project.

Canada's JTF2 special forces team is widely regarded as one of the best, most competent and most lethal special services units in the modern world.

That's just a taste of our military record. Haven't even mentioned anything about our contributions to the world regarding humanitarian relief, technological advancements or kickass hockey teams.

You continually show your ignorance and low class with many of your comments Napalm, how about before you open your mouth you educate yourself for once.

...

Not that I am doubting the Canadian contribution to things military, but that's a rather disproportionate painting of affairs there, KD!

I was not comparing canada's military service to any other countries, so I can't see it being disproportionate.

I was just responding to a comment and educating the commentator before he chooses to insult any other country and it people or contributions.

hmm yeah the Canadians did a good jobb in Holland

exactly

the thing is, if i was a soldier and wanted out, i would just say im gay.

think about it, its flawless.

I always wondered what would happen if the draft was reinstated and they drafted an openly gay male..

That's a really good question?

That's what I plan on doing if I ever get drafted. I've already got Tex ready to perform for proof, if need be

I'd be the official US ARMY gay inspector!

Using my "techniques" drool I'd like totally sniff out the fake gays!

Only way I'd be in the army is if Scotland was independent and under threat and I'd been conscripted.

Sod choosing to fight for Britain, the Queen, and all that rubbish.

As for deserters who joined of their own free will, I have no sympathy for them. As I see it, they signed up to do whatever was asked of them by their superiors. Te dude who said that obeying the chain of command is essential was spot on.

My Grandfather joined the army for five years.... he was in for eleven and a half because of a little thing called the Second World War.... not sure if the American army does the same as ours, but in the British Army, you serve your term, and are then on Reserve for a period of between five years and fifteen years (or life for some specialists...) at any time during this reserve period, if the army wants you, the army gets you.... so you serve your time, and on the day you leave, theres a war... the army say "you're a reservist, you're staying in until...." and thats all there is to it...

Fair enoguh - they joined there army to defend their own country not someone elses that doesnt want defending.

hope you feel at home in canada

True by fighting in Iraq dosen't mean the terrorists wouldn't come to the US.

Lots of terrorists are being killed in Iraq.. what if one of those terrorists that were killed happened to live becuase we never invaded iraq.. and they caused another 9/11.. then what?

Yeah, but thier are alot of terrorists in other countries still. So in your terms we should just invade the whole middle east and kill hundrends of thousands of people, which we have already done in Iraq. Yes sudam killed many but we are killing many people ourselves.

So would you rather spare the lives of all the soldiers who died in this war and risk a terrorist attack in the states that would kill thousands of innocent civilians?

WEll i am not concerned about an attack, i live in canada. lol

The only way to be completely sure we have gotten rid of all the terrorists is to nuke the whole damn planet and kill everyone on it. That's right kids, there are terrorists even here in the good ol' US of A, in fact the guys responsible for 9/11 had been living here for several years before the attacks.

Would you rather have 500 terrorists on the earth.. or 5000?

There's still the risk that a terrorist attack could happen and kill thousands of innocent people.

Of course.. but the chance is a lot slimmer in my eyes.

Not really, keep in mind that last terrorist attack originated from Afghanistan, NOT Iraq. Also, several nations are far more capable of a devistating attack on the US then Iraq.

Do you honestly think there arent terrorists who were in Iraq and who are now dead? I think Bush picked a good fight going after Iraq rather then taking on someone like North Korea.

Do you honestly think that out of over 6 billion people, only 5000 would ever think of commiting a terrorist act, and that 4500 of these 5000 lived in Iraq and are now dead, and that furthermore, once you've wiped out one generation of terrorists, there will never be any more people who will think of doing the same? You're stupider than I thought.

Saddam hated Al-Qaeda in the first place. All the war has done is turn Iraq into a potential breeding ground for terrorists. It's just total chaos over there right now, and if the various insurgent groups ever drive the US troops out, we're going to have more terrorists on our hands than we did in the first place.

OR maybe in 5 years Iraq will be a stable country fighting its own war on terror..instead of having us helping them they will be able to defend themselves..

The only reason I want bush to keep soldiers in Iraq is so that country can get on its feet and not be a terrorist hideout and keep fighting those insurgents so the country isnt overun. Saddam could have hated Al-quada all he wants but do you think he would have broke up a terrorist group plotting to attack America? I doubt it. 5-10 years hopefully that country will be on its own feet and people will be able to be free to do what they want without fear of being gassed by saddam. Your right though.. I am a completely stupid.. what was I thinking wanting to give other people the chance of living a good free life like I do. Curse me for being such a tyrant.

and it will happen in the near future

More likely that within' 5 years Iraq will slip into a civil war and the fundamental Islamic Factions will sway the people in a war torn country to their side. It is amazing that you can justify all these american, allied and iraqi deaths predicated on a "MAYBE".

And this war served only to distablize the region, and kill alot of people.

As for your comment regarding bringing the freedoms that you have to the Iraqi people, first I encourage you to investigate the freedoms that you have, and the freedoms that you percieve you have. Second I ask you not to be so ignorant as to assume that every one in the world wants to live like an american.

I think that Iraq will slip into a civil war very much sooner than in 5 years, they are on the brink of one now

I agree, but I had to leave myself a little leeway.

no gambler huh mobile saddam

Naw, Bush is the gambler, I like to play it safe.

So by your logic, we should kill every leader who we don't think would crack down on a terrorist group anywhere in the world? Oh, and Saddam definitely would have wiped out an Al-Qaeda cell if he knew they were in his country. Like I said, Saddam and Osama had beef with each other. And he (Saddam) probably feared as well that if Al-Qaeda had taken hold in Iraq, there would have been a civil war, and at the end of it he would have been out of power. Insane, cruel, evil even? Yes. Stupid? No.

Now don't you give me any of this "he was an evil dictator" crap unless you realize just how many dictators there are in the world that we simply ignore, or even help out.

Listin Im in the reserves If I got sent there I wouldnt run off to canada like a little coward

i just want to preserve your apparent typo before you edit it out, since it cracks me up

hysterical

You kill me PVS. That's precious. Pure gold.

All right bad typo

"OR maybe in 5 years Iraq will be a stable country fighting its own war on terror.."

You know more about the middle east then you know about the problem of terrorism!!! LOL I come from Asia, it would be by the end of your kids generation before that happens.lol
This is not simple bang !!!pow!!! here is democracy. Thank you come again !!! You do that you yanks would be back to fight off another dictator. Iraqi people want freedom but it's in the the middle east. There is so much outside influence that it will never happen.

What manny says is true.

back to the Deserters....
Wow, maybe they understand what they did wrong....:
YA' KNOW, INVADING A COUNTRY ON FALSE-PRETENCES, DOING SOMETHING THEY COULD HAVE DONE 15-14 YEARS AGO!

The whole westren world would have been benefited if you didn't attack iraq but got osama and his leaders instead. By casuing this war terrorism has easily increased by many times.

Ah....indeed.
I hate how we Canadians have to clean up the mess the Americans left after invading Afghanistan....

to put it this way my military experience which is kind of long, says Im glad I aint in Iraq. not because I would be scared to be there but hostile fire around your ears all the time might dissolute you.
Even the best of the soldiers face that event.
All hails to the soldiers in Iraq..from a soldier taken his tall in Norway

100,000 actually

dont know how the forces work in america, but in england if we sign up to the british army we take the bad with the good.... despite what we think wether we think its right or wrong we are there to do job... untill told other wise we stand 4 our country and government and we stand pround that. there is no honour in running, do you think that my grandad had the same option in the world war NO when his fellow soldiers were dieng around him the smell of blood and death was circulating in the air. his chest tight with fear unable to speak hadnt slept in days the noise of gun fire ringing in his ears eyes blurred from the smoke that had already consumed most. did he every doubt why he was there NO he lifted his gun up wiped the snot from his nose and enhayled and shouted rule fukin brittania. thats what defending your country is all about. good or bad right or wrong prepare to be there for your country or stand back and watch out for the true hero's the people how do give a ****

Yes, but since the WMD lies Britain and America are not defending our countries from an invasion or a threat so the ideals of soldiers tend to change when the blatant wrongness of the situation hits them. You know something, it's probably harder for those soldiers knowing that they've deserted their comrades and left them to fight without them. They believe they don't want to die for an insane president's ambitions and that makes them okay by me.

I love deserts.
Ice cream. yummm

been in the army is like any other job, if your boss tells you to do a job if u like it or you think ists pointless thats irrelevant, order is a order just get on with it.. when they joined the army the should have been prepared for conflict surely

According to your flawed analogy, as a subordinate subjected to higher power, you should always accept the order given from above, no matter how many objections you have against it. In relevance, these soldiers are deserting because they feel strongly opposed to the illegal war, and orders to target hospitals and refuge bases are not part of the "job description" when one volunteers to give up their service to the military; all the while with delusions of 'free college' so they can camp in the poor, dupe them and send them off to fight for the rich who direct orders overseas, safe in their couches.

So in doing so, while orders to slay and brutalise civilians, you seem to not object to such actions. There is not one part of the advertisements given that this is what the war is actually about; you don't get reports of the Iraqi dead in the main press, it's not even reported that the actual doctors and clerics who were numbering how many Iraqi people were dying and wounded were arrested and taken to the prisoner camps, which incidently, does not have a very clean record of its own, with numerous cases coming to the public of abusement of their detainees. Remember, these 'prisoners' are not all guilty, most don't even have a trial. This is the complete dehumanisation of the Arab people; and most soldiers will not stand for this, and thus, should be supported for their dissidence.

If they are not willing to take orders why join the army in the first place!? and the war is not really illegal is it considering it got the backing of 70% of the active European union? and also if you know anything at all about the armed forces (most of the males in my family have at one point served) you should know that you take a oath of allegiance, in which you would serve you country whole heartedly to the best of your ability. if you don't agree with the oath don't sign it simple as. If every person deserted there positions at the moment of trouble the Americans would be speaking Japanese and the English German.

for those who havent served in the armed service shut up, for those who have the discussion keeps on

Anyone with half a brain can see its an illegal war. The Iraqis did ****-all to us and the American Government. How is an American soldier protecting America by serving in Iraq shooting down innocents frightened to death at being bombed in the night by cowards and thugs. So by your rationale if the American Government sent troops into any country, regardless of the reasons then that soldier is defending America. In the Second World War the Japanese and the Nazis were an actual physical threat which promised invasion if we didn't fight. This is completely different and until the stubbornly patriotic (or arrogant) Americans realise this other deserters will more than happily leave (to tell the truth its the soldiers that are happy staying scare me, but they are probably having fun).

I could probably envision an American Army oath.

' Raise your right hand and repeat after me. I will, as a soldier of the American Army carry out my duties as a totally unprofessional soldier, I will cowardly bomb mosques with no regard to innocent life. The Iraqi lying on the ground unarmed and injured will feel the godly wrath of the M16 assault rifle with no attempt at mercy. I will completely make sure that all prisoners of war are treated with the upmost disrespect, hatred and physical torture. President Bush is our true christian saviour and he will deliver us from all evil, namely the Iraqi militants and coughcivilianscough. Now kiss your gun, you're in.'

Anyone who has a problem with my rendition of the oath - my heart bleeds

noo ya c ur knowledge of the WW" is pretty Pooh, we declared war on Germany cos they invaded Poland . Hitler wanted england too be there Alie he said he admired the British! so the British would have been fighting someone Else's war again. the only dif then was the war was thought more in person then

So there