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This is pretty tough to figure out in my opinion. Discuss.

Hello?

For the love God!

Chill, you just started the thing, lol.

After much analysis, I've decided that Batgirl would probably win.

up

Batman can woop Captain America in a close fight!

I know Batgirl is very skilled but I dont know how skilled.

Is she as skilled as the Batman himself? If so then I bet she nudges Captain America steriod behind just like Batman.

Yeeeeeeeeeehawwwwwww

Hmmmm let me create a Shiva vs Captain America thread hehehe

hmmmmm and also a Batgir vs Shiva thread

Also why cant I find the Batman vs Captain America thread??? was it deleted??

get your eyes checked

Batgirl is a better fighter than Batman. In hand to hand combat, she takes Cap. And with surprising ease, too.

are you sure??? If not then I will create a Batgirl vs Batman thread.

I dont think DC will allow Batgirl to beat Batman. It wont sell much. Comic book politics will come into play

Batgirl is arguably a better fighter than Batman. Batgirl is the only person in history to successfully beat Lady Shiva, a person who outshadows Batman's skills. Batman did beat Shiva once in Batman/Superman however Gorilla Grodd was mentally controlling her so her skills were heavily diluted. Also in this comic Batman was strong enough to hit Darkseid in the face and not have a broken hand. (Stupid Jeph Loeb). Batgirl could possibly beat Cap. His superior experience and vibranium shield may tilt the scales though.

I don't really know much about the new batgirl..but the fact that she's a better fighter than Batman makes her an interesting character...Captain America's good and all..the best in the MU...but I've always thought of batman as the better tactical/stratigic fighter..If she could take down the Bat..I believe she could take down the Captain...

Yeah, Batgirl is a better fighter than Batman. Batman himself acknowledged that.

Keep in mind, however, that Batman's primary skill isn't fighting - it's defeating his opponent. So while he couldn't beat Shiva in a fight rest assured, if she did wrong by Gotham, she'd go down in a heartbeat.

I agree with you 100%.
Batgirl and Shiva could both beat the Batman in hand to hand combat. They able to predict the moves of an opponent before they even do it, and beyond Batman's (prodigious) skills in hand to hand combat. Batman is the best, but Batgirl and Shiva are better.
However, as you said, even though Shiva can kick the Bat's ass she would be defeated if se ever faced the Batman. Because the Batman is first and foremost an intellectual. He just happens to be an amazing fighter at the same time.
Shiva would be destroyed by Batman if she ever did anything really 'naughty.'

The time that I remember Batgirl and Batman fighting they where pretty much evenly matched the same is true for the encounters between Batman and Captain America. Except that Batman admitted that Cap had a slight edge. Even if Cassandra is more skilled. Cap still has experience and a physical edge seeing as he is in peak physical condition. Add to that that Cap is a master tactician and very smart, he will probably lead the course of the battle and take Cassandra some where to maximize his own abilities and minumise hers. Don't doubt that brains can play into this. The other thing to consider besides Caps experience and intelligence is the shield which could by itself tip the balance. The other factor in Caps favor is his heart/spirit he does not know the meaning of the word quit not to mention his durability is durability is slightly enhanced.

His durability is at "peak human levels," according to the Official Marvel Handbook of the Avengers 2004. Batgirl's at peak human too. She once dodge 5 bullets by only moving her neck at point blank range. This battle is tough to call.

there was something to note about how she defeated Lady Shiva, it can be argue that it wasnt a true victory. She cheated somehow I heard

Where did Batman acknowledge where Batgirl was a better fighter than him in hand to hand combat!???

I always thought that nobody was a better complete fighter than Batman.

Im sorry but I dont believe that Batgirl or Shiva can beat Batman if he knows how to fight intellictually as well. He will find someway to defeat either woman.

Now you guys say he would defeat Lady Shiva in heart beat if she ever does something naughty because Batman has an Einstein brain, so you are helping prove my point

also the Karate Kid owns all

Batgirl didn't cheat at all. She won fair and square. Saying a few disconcerting words to Shiva shouldn't be considered a penalty. Batman has always considered Batgirl to be the better hand to hand fighter. Even her profile in dccomics.com says she's a better hand to hand fighter than Batman.

Batman could beat Batgirl if he has tactics and uses ingenuity. But in a plain hand to hand fight with no costume, gadgets, or his infamous preptime in a steel cage, Batman would probably go down. Batman has never successfully (or fairly) beaten Lady Shiva in hand to hand combat. Batgirl has.

And yes the Karate Kid does own all. Although I would choose a better codename.

Where in the link DCComics.com shows that?

I dont know, He has taken down the JLA before, fought toe to toe with Wonder Woman even though he lost. He did beat her in another fight. Heck Wonder Woman uses him as a training partner.

Im assuming that in the surrounding area Batman would use it to his advantage against Batgirl or Lady Shiva.

Batman did beat the crap out of Lady Shiva but was consider Bad writing

hmmmmm we are losing touch with the title of the thread hehehehe

Question about the Steroids, are the steroids like the ones in real life cause I use Steroids. Im a fighter and a body buildier

http://www.dccomic.com/secret_files/dc_character.html?sc_dc_itemCode=bmbatgirl

http://www.dccomic.com/secret_files/dc_character.html?sc_dc_itemCode=ladyshiva

Batman could use the surrounding area to his advantage provided that he has the time to analyze his environment and concoct a plan. However in straight out hand to hand combat fight, Batman would probably lose.

Yeah we are verging off topic.

okay it saids that Batman hasnt beaten her as of yet cause always someone interfered.

Im still looking for where Batman admitted that Batgirl was a better hand to hand fighter. someone else said that

Check out "A Death in the Family", the story arc in which
Jason Todd died. The Shiva/Batman fight was in part 2 or 3.
Batman won, but only after the Boy Wonder kicked her in the _back.

though to me it was pretty even fighting, no one had the advantage of it

Bats vs. Shiva is "usually" Batman takes s_ix out of ten.

Point taken. It would be nice to see an actually no holds barred fight between them for once. Batman has admitted that Batgirl is better fighter than him sproadically over the Batgirl series. Most recently was in an issue where Batman fought Batgirl in a graveyard. I doubt Batman could truly defeat Lady Shiva in hand to hand combat. He has a better chance than most to win though.

To get back on topic, do you believe that Batgirl can beat Cap?

I remember an issue where Cap and some chick where running from an army and he tells her to keep running and he'll hold of the army... and he does.

I have only read a few of my friends Batgirl issues (he loves the anything to do with the Batfamily) and in one issue Batgirl was trying to fight Batman for some reason but he didn't want and it was still a stalemate... had he wanted to fight I bet he would have won.

Maybe. Cassandra wasn't exactly in her right mind at that time. Batman can defeat anyone with preptime. I'm sure he has a masterplan available in case Batgirl goes rogue. He did it with JLA in the Tower of Babel storyline

Batman admitted that Batgirl was the better fighter in an issue of Robin a couple of months ago, I believe. He then went on to say that she should team up with Robin because, despite her unsurpassed fighting ability, she lacked the skills to be a detective (like, you know, being able to read).

Like I said before, Batman is probably barely top five DC hand-to-hand combatants. But Batman's appeal is that he's so much more than just a hand-to-hand combatant. When Batman takes down Superman, does it have ANYTHING to do with Batman's hand-to-hand power? No - it would be meaningless against Superman. It has everything to do with Batman's ability to identify weakness and take advantage of it. Batman could take down Superman at 80 years old if he had sufficient prep time. The same holds true with the other top hand-to-hand combatants in the DC. He could defeat them all, in the same night if he wanted, just not with straight up fighting.

well the question was answer that she was just as skilled as Batman, so Yes!

I havent read alot of info on the gadgest that she uses though Captain America has only the sheild!!!

Seems Batgirl should take this one!

but that is what Im saying! You guys are saying that she is slightly better than him on hand to hand fighting though Batman has a superior Eistein brain that would make up for the defeciet and then some to get the victory over Batgirl or Lady Shiva

hmmmmm you have any pics on the net of that issue of Robin where he says that?? Sometimes Teachers tell that to their students that they are better than they are to get them to try and train harder so they can be better

We're not really debating anything because I think we all agree to two basic points:

1)Batgirl is a better hand-to-hand fighter than Batman.

2)Batman is so smart that he could find a way to beat her anyway. It just wouldn't be in straight hand-to-hand combat.

And I think that she could likewise beat Captain America, who is also good a finding a way to win, but would probably underestimate Batgirl, being a 5'5" girl. He could win a rematch, but it wouldn't be easy. And if you arm Batgirl with her assassin weapons (like when she was playing Kasumi), she's probably win a lot more often than not.

She fought a heavily armed Deathstroke to a draw, and Deathstroke DESTROYED Batman. I think most people believe that Deathstroke is a more ruthless version of Cap. Take away the weapons and the ruthlessness...Cap goes down.

No, I don't have any pictures of that issue of Robin, lol. Just sneak into your comicbook store and read it. It's a recent issue, so it'll still be on the stands.

"She fought a heavily armed Deathstroke to a draw"

WHOA! She did?! She's a hell of lot better than I thought.

You know what? I retract that last statement. I misspoke - that was actually Vera Black disguised as Deathstroke. Sorry about that.

Oh. You mean in the Justice League Elite when Vera and Kasumi aka Batgirl were doing Black Ops. Oh well. Batgirl could beat Deathstroke to a standstill though. Maybe.

Yeah, I think so too. I'd love to see him as the villain in a future Batgirl storyline. It's a good comic, but she's almost TOO powerful. I've never seen her lose a fight the entire series. They have to graduate her from street level villains to metahumans to keep it interesting.

Connor Hawke almost beat her.

Yeah...almost.

I think Conner is considered the #4 "non-enhanced" fighter in the DC universe or somesuch. IIRC, it's:

1. Shiva
2. Batgirl (though I guess she's #1 now)
3. Richard Dragon
4. Conner Hawke
5. Batman

I'd love to see a throwdown between any two of the people on this list. Or with Deathstroke (who didn't make the list because he's "enhanced".

Yeah I remember she just played possum in that issue.

In the one instance where I remember Bats beating Cap it was more a fluke. That was in the DC VS Marvel line. The other two instances where they have fought Bats has addmited that Cap has an edge. The two fights that I have seen between Batman and Bat Girl they were more or less evenly matched. Again even if Bat Girl is more skill Bats(and Cap) have more experience. The Marvel Encyclopedia rates Caps durability at 3 which is enhanced. 2 is normal even guys like Daredevil and the Punisher have 2. I doubt Cap is going to underestimate any opponent 5' 5" and female or not. Its not in his nature. This does bring us to the other issue that peak condition for him and peak condition for Bat Girl are going to be different. He is going to be stronger, probably more durable, and a faster runner. Which means if needed he can make a tactical withdrawl and gain "higher ground".

This may be a stupid question, but who is Richard Dragon?

Yes, you are indeed correct.
Basically in hand to hand martial arts Batgirl is perfect. The only person who would have a chance is Shiva Woosan, and even she was defeated by Batgirl.
Thus, in a nutshell Batman could never win Batgirl in hand to hand combat.
However Batman would win if they ever fought!
Simply because Batman would be too bright to face her face to face.
It is the same thing with all the Batman vs Superman fights. Superman could literally obliterate Batman due to all his various powers. But every match up between the two has ended with Batman triumphant!
Thus, Batgirl may be a better martial artist than Batman, but if the fat ever hit the fire Batman would win.
He just wouldn't win through the martial arts.
Batman is quite easily the most dangerous man in comics.
p.s: It is for this same reason i always say Batman would defeat Cap. America. Some say Cap is stronger, faster, more durable etc etc etc. And that is true. Due to the supersoldier serum Cap is beyond what Batman could ever become through sheer effort.
But Batman would still defeat Cap. America. In the same way Bats defeats Superman - by using his mind. Remember Bruce is the dude who brought down the entire JLA by himself! It wasn't through strength or skill, but through mind and strategy.

Richard Dragon is some martial arts dude. DC cat. I don't think there's much else to know about him.

I don't know much about him either, except that he trained Lady Shiva.

so true, this is what is up in the DC world. I am a Martial Arts fighter and the smartest person is usually the also the best fighter hand to hand cause the person is sooooo smart he usually learns quicker faster and better. But the DC World has it the way you describe it and that is how it stands.

Batman in my world and in real life should be the number one fighter hand to hand. No girl 5'5 should beat a huge guy like Batman by default anyway.

in the DC world with Brains, skills, and vast fighting experience. Batman is the most dangerous human in DC!

By the way, Batman has defeated Deathstroke in their second meeting. He learnd somehow to defeat him