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Talking about Middle-Earth and all that relates to it is great, but when it comes to speaking elf, I think it's becoming a littl bit crazy.
I've heard that one of the goals Tolkien had was insert, give a reason for the elf language to live, when he wrote the book, language he created himself.
It's nice to know, but (and I know some of you know it) some people actually learn it! Everyone have passions, but to what extent?
How many people speak Sindarins in the world?
Personnaly, I think it's a waist of time and energy to learn it, even if Middle-Earth is a passion to you (which is in my case).

Uh, I have a passion for English and learning new things >.> I mean, you have to know when to stop, but...I love LoTR, so humph!

Viva LotR, but Quenia and Sindarin... come on guys!
And I also am curious and want to learn new things... that are USEFUL!

Hey, learning new things helps your mind learn new things later in life. I personally have no time to learn the languages. I mean, all their lives LoTR geeks were laughed at for studying "useless" things, and then they got jobs on the movies. Besides, that's not all they're good at. The point is, I think if someone wants to learn the language, that's fine, it doesnt make you wierd. If you don't want to learn it, it doesn't mean you aren't a fan.

Allright, but it's still useless.
And I didn't say people learning it are weird. But learning those languages is my line between fans and fanatics.

Yes, I do think that one can exaggerate fan-ness especially about Tolkien's creation,
But - to defend languages a little ... I don't think that learning a language can in any way be an 'exaggeration' of interest, even less in a case like the Eldarin languages one can study without dedicating all day to it, without pressure, and that are so essential for the place they come from. And besides providing further information and understanding of their culture, learning a constructed or in this case fictional language / family of languages definitely improves one's abilty to get used to and learn other, 'real' languages, too, by offering more insight in how a language as a system actually works, how it's built up et cetera, even if that isn't its specific purpose, not having been designed as a logic language.

Beside that, the tongues of Middle-earth are art, and as some may find delight in music or painting or literature, others can simply enjoy a language per se, as a living system, as a vivid, breathing being, maybe finding pleasure in admiration of its superficial beauty, its fragile and idiosyncratic character hiding its overwhelming power and strength; others can marvel at the complex obscurities of intertwined cases and tempora, daydream adoring the undescribe- and unimitatable flowing sounds of the phonetic complexion of a people's philosophy and way of thinking.
Others can love languages.
And that is more than a good reason to try to understand them, I think


Maybe they are fanatics, radicals... but harmless ones

As for your question - there are thousands of people learning Sindarin or Quenya; hardly anyone uses it for spoken communication though, after all it's no GA-language, but the product of excessive linguaphilia

Ok, but do you realize they are studying a fiction language and that Middle-Earth, no doubt a great creation, is not reality and is only fiction.
Thus, my point is said.

but then so is the klingon language... just don't tell them trekkies that, though...

kaplagh!

So is the klingnon indeed

but why then is latin studied still???

only the clerics speak it, but only in rituals... or are we offtopic?

It's the base of our language. Trust me, it helps.

well... actually the base of our language is germanic...

now if you're referring to spanish, italian, and all the romance languages, then yes latin is the base

Lol, of course we are aware that it's fiction... at least that's true for most *cough*
But does that fact that something is fiction, is created intentionally with the wish to give life to something new, something beautiful, to share this beauty with others - does this fact make things worth less?
Is Reason a disadvantage?
<ot>

Latin is far from being a dead language. It may be true that the only region where it is still spoken as the official language is small, but that doesn't make it dead, in contrary it's more alive than some 'living' languages, and definitely of more importance for us;


And even if it was dead, death doesn't kill beauty.
</ot>



edit
@ language-basis-idea - actually, even if English may be a Germanic language, around 70% of the vocabulary are of Roman origin; looking at typologic properties, English more ressembles Asian 'isolated' languages like from China or Vietnam

There you see

...but what is death?

is it the ending of life, or a beginning?

or is life the nightmare we dream, and death the state of being asleep?

if so... then let me sleep

WTF

FTW

You're toying with me.

trust me... i do not toy

Aren't we losing the topic a little

Death, death is the most important part of life, we just never live long enough to get to enjoy it

As for a language, the ultimate death is Forgetting, the loss of memories and admiration. A language can only die when nobody lives to remember it, and so we can never know what languages have died, because if we did, they wouldn't be dead... that's what differs us from them, probably... they can only die when they're forgotten and will always endure, will live as long as there is somebody to love them

in the end that's what languages are all about, death and making things undying

well said

That was a bit scary.

Hmmm well I think that if you want to learn fiction languages then so be it! If it interests you then that's a good enough reason to learn it even if it isn't used. Personally though I could never be bothered to learn a language that I will never use, but I don't even like languages as it is in school it just ain't my thing! I much prefer sciences and all that..oh but i love history! ok sorry i'm blabbin' again!

LOL...I'll be out of this discussion. I enjoy reading Exa's profound thoughts on this. She can handle it herself. She kicks ass.

Let me just say something:

Brilliant. Greatest paradox ever, or should I say, an oxymoron? Either way, brilliant.

I still think it's scary. lol

laughing

dontgetit

Just accept it Mandos, that different people have their own interests and varying magnitude of appreciation and response for those things. Save yourself from all the headache and freakiness.

No, there can never be enough

The world is not enought. (Sorry wrong movie)

And by the way shadowy_blue, I am perfectly ok with other people's perspective.

... but I still think learning elf language is useless. Knowing it won't get you a job

thats true, but reading the books won't get you a job either and i'm assuming you've done that!!

How did you know?

i know... everything shifty

Is learning French or German or Spanish really very necessary to get a job? No. So then why do we learn it in school?

We learn languages not just to get a job. I don't know what to tell you, Mandos. Exa explicated the matter in a terrific way. You have to learn not just the "useful" things. Otherwise, maybe you should just stop reading any kind of literature or watch movies? They don't help you to get a job.

laughing

If people only did useful things that help them get a job, the world would be a dark place indeed

Loving something will hardly ever get you a job
I'd rather drown in Eldarin etymology and risk being unemployed for this than having to work in some job that doesn't interest me just for the money with the consequence of not finding the time to enjoy the subtly structured deliciousness of Ardean linguistics I think
But ok, everybody has their personal interests laughing

perfectly spoken

OK, bad example, but what if your boss tells you what language you know, you better not say elvish. Elvish might be interesting to some people, but it's very useless.

Do you really think that the people who try to learn Elvish only do Elvish?

Heads up. Most of the people who learn Elvish are already multilingual even before they learn the former. Exa as an example, knows more or less 7 freakin' languages. I try to learn Elvish, and I can speak 3 other languages. Some other "masters" of Elvish can speak Latin, or French, etc.

I speak french, spanish, english and a little bit of latin...

And elvish is U...S...E...L...E...S...S...

I'm sooooooo evil!
(Sorry for double-post)

You have to get over this, Mandos.

If it brings you enjoyment and it harms neither yourself nor others, then it doesn't matter if it's useless for you or not. What more reason do you need? Why should anyone object?

I mean look at the typical person's hobby of sitting in front of the TV watching American Idol. At least at the completion of your hobby you'll be able to speak Elvish. What do they have? A headache and an irrational anger triggered by British accents because they liked the last guy Simon Cowell made cry.

Nobody has ever asked me why I eat ice cream. Isn't it a waste of time to eat ice cream? Why, what is it useful for? Fruit is a more useful and healthy thing to eat, but ice cream? If anyone ever asked me why I eat ice cream, I should reply: "Why...because I like to eat it. It's enjoyable."

May I ask you why (if ever you're doing these) you watch ball games or go to Nascar races or does embroidery or collects beetles or does whatever "useless" entertainment you enjoy?

And a waste of time? Sorry Mandos but I really think it's none of your business. Also, time is always being wasted inevitably, whether you learn Elvish or not. Moreover, it is there for us to waste. Not YOURS.

It's hard to keep up with you...
Eating ice cream is normal, speaking elvish ain't.
(Now she's gonna ask me: What is normal?)

Briliant

Life is more than getting a job and money. don't ever give up on what you love...even if it isn't related to money or work.

There is no definate 'normal'. It's relative to your point of view.

point of society these days... don't speak elvish.
But I won't stop you.

Society?! Society!?!

Don't even get me started with society....DO you even realize the evil corruptness of it all?

Society won't let you do this, or that or whatever? That's absurd. You have control over your own self....Yes, I understand, Society has power over some things...like you can't walk downtown naked...society wouldn't accept it. You have to obey certain hospitality guidelines....ect...
Society can be evil....but in NO way, will society EVER stop me from doing something like learning elvish...I draw the line there. Society can be a bad, evil place, but in no way will they ever have enough power to drag me down to the level of a cockroach!
I'll wear clothes for SOCIETY.
I'll chew with my mouth closed for SOCIETY.
...but I will NEVER allow myself to be downgraded in that way, as to loose my free will, and love. Society does not have that power, at least not over ME...I'm stronger than that.

Indeed I agree, but society is still there.
9Tell me how to bring it down and I'll help you)

It is the opposite of 'abnormal'. Yet the prefix 'ab', means away from; off.

The argument goes that there are varying degrees of normalities. What's normal for one person might not be for you. E.g. in Japan, it is normal for them to eat raw, sometimes poisonous fish, yet not for me...

In some third-world countries, it is normal to hunt or fish for food, while we have supermarkets.

what was the topic again?

Normality isn't absolute.

The problem is that you're refusing to grasp the points being made here. You just keep rambling on and on, repeating yourself as if everyone who tries to learn Elvish will stop doing so just because YOU think it's pointless.

I'm not just talking about ice cream. It's just an example. You should probably re-read all the posts here, just in case you didn't get what we're all trying to say?

society by itself is not an entity to be hated, loved, labelled good or evil... it has no thought, it is not a living and breathing thing... it is a word used to describe a mass of people living and working and governing each other as they see fit, that may or may not always benefit the individual, nor it may not be to its liking... it is the need of the one to learn or know a thing that doesn't always add to the good of society no matter how useless it is, but for that one person... to learn elvish is an individual's desire... as is learning klingon, sword making, hammering metals into armour, the art of sword dancing and horsemanship... um, where was I?

WTV

You're the one who's talking too much about Middle-Earth. It's a waste of your time, why don't you learn some REAL knowledge?

Like what?