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http://www.exile.ru/2005-January-27/war_nerd.html
have a read...what do u think?

' the Iraq war probably wouldn't be fatal. It's definitely hurt us, but it won't mean the downfall of America. Well, if we invade Iran, that bet is off. All bets are off. People don't realize how fast a Superpower can fall. It only takes one invasion too many.
Napoleon was unstoppable before he invaded Russia. So was Hitler. Now France and Germany are "Old Europe."
Iran is scarier than Iraq in every way you can name. First of all, it's physically way bigger, three times the size of Iraq. The population is 65 million, nearly three times as many as Iraq. The Iranians are young, too. Their birthrate is way down now, around 2 kids per woman, but back in the Khomeini years it was one of the highest in the world.
The Iranians, unlike the Iraqis, have always been willing to die for their country. In the Iran-Iraq War (1980-89) thousands of Iranians volunteered to charge across Iraqi minefields, knowing they were going to die. It scared the Hell out of the Iraqis. They threw everything at those crazy Persian suicide charges, even poison gas. And the Iranians just kept coming. If you want a more complete account of that war, read my column, "The War Nobody Watched" . The short version is simple: Iranians are brave, determined people. Don't mess with them.

American cut through Iraq like a hot knife through butter. The problem American has hit is that they are trying to change a regime, not just go to war with another country.

Head to head...in a war. America would trounce Iran. The problem comes when America tries to re-establish a central government.

Not even 100 Americans died during the "War in Iraq"

if bush wants to invade then he will
the american people wont pursuade him not to

a good portion of those who voted for bush will support ANYTHING he does.
the power of brainwashing

America has long since fallen

true

The Iraqi Elections are a complete success. Iraq is now officially a democracy. The Iraqi people are free from tyranny and now peace is in sight in the next few years or so. The Iraq War was necessary.

I highly doubt that we will go to war with Iran. Syria and Sudan have already begun to cooperate with US forces. Iran will probably ascede to any and all negotiations the US offers.

roughly 51% of the nation voted for Bush.

Unless ALL of them are willing to do exactly what he says...then war wouldn't happen. Tricking the nation into believing that Iraq was a true threat to American peace worked the first time. I find it highly unlikely that American citizens would be dooped into jumping into another war.

peace my ass...not yet..probably not eva

they voted for him once
then voted for bush again!
why?

Not to mention that other countries may rally around Iran as opposed to people just letting Iraq hang in the wind.

I believe if america attacks Iran, Iraq will soon fall into civil war. Bush I think is counting on help from the EU and a few otehr countries on this one, and he ain't gonna get it.

You're comparing Napolean, a ruthless conquerer who pillaged countries for their riches, to the United States of America? Please!

America will not fall. It's just very sad that the European countries hate America so much.

iran is a war america wont win even if they did invade

Uninformed of what's really happening. Unfortunately your press has a major bias against the US. The facts are distorted.

America IS NOT going to war with Iran. Where did you hear this?

uninformed? i read info on the net also ya know

Well, the link is to a Moscow-based alternative newspaper. That's about as legit as you get!

We're not going to war with Iran. Where is this coming from? It's utterly ridiculous. Iran is already in arms negotiation with the US. They folded pretty quick.

voting for Bush over poor candidates like Al Gore and John Kerry is significantly different than persuading the majority of the American people that Iran poses a big enough threat to American peace and safety that they must be stopped.

A RUSSIAN newspaper! The same Russia that HATES the USA. This obviously proves my point.

And Russia is in cahoots with Iraq. My uncle is a soldier in Kuwait and his emails tell me that there are many hired Russian ex-KGB assassinating US soldiers. Russia has significant oil funds in Iraq. They want the US to lose so they can keep their oil.

Uh...BTW I was being sarcastic.

Again, what does Iran have anything to do with the election? It was centered around moral values and the Iraq War.

I thought that would have been obvious when the words "Moscow" and "alternative" were mentioned.

Oh, sorry.

your not goin to war yet....who knows what bush has up his sleave
u just dont know whats around the corner
http://www.cnn.com/2005/ALLPOLITICS/01/16/hersh.iran/

And bush doesn't want anything to do with Iraq's oil, gotcha.

And actually many political sites and publications have mentioned Bush's desire to go after Iran. American, European and other.

Technically Bush already declared his intentions with the whole "you are either with us or against us" speech, The "axis of evil" speech, and the "we will attack all nations who support terrorism" speech.

Euripides...you just relax for a second here big guy.

I'm responding to someone else....not making my own statements connecting any sort of America vs. Iran war, nor am I trying to draw a connection between the elections and America's willinginess to go to war. Actually, i'm trying to prove the contrary.

???? The oil fields of Iraq belong to the Iraqi government. The Iraqi President already clarified that to Bush and his aides. Do REALLY think that the USA would go to war with a country just for money? You seriously underestimate us.

Oh. Okay. Thanks for the help.

We'll have to wait and see - but the answer is probably yes.

And Euripides, your screen name is one of my favourite play writers ever.

Thank you. I like him too. Very modern.

so what if the oil belong to the iraqi goverment?
doesnt mean bush doesnt want to get his hands on it

They way I see it. Yes, Bush will probably put things in motion in order to start a war with Iran...or atleast some sort of armed conflict in order to "disarm a threat to peace."

But the war in Iraq has significantly stretched America's military resources beyond their conventional means. In order to successfully lead a force large enough to deal with Iran (in the near future)...Bush will need to reinstate the draft.

All this seems feasible to me....especially with JW at the helm. But as an American, I find it hard to believe that people would support another war within such a short period of time....especially if it results in forcing people to join the military against their will.

And your proof is? This whole "US went to war for oil" is completely ridiculous. We've spent over 3 TRILLION dollars on this war. Why the hell would we waste that amount of money for something that's not even close to that amount!

That was so clever
Now how about actually making a valid point as to why you oppose that statement, and I'll tell you my viewpoint

agreed

Euripides I think When people talk about america goingthere for the oil they are also talking about the petro dollars issue.

As clever as supplying a quoted blank statement??

As for your statement, you say something about living in the shower....would that be in America?

I'm certainly not taking the word of journalist with no political/military experience. His opinion is not fact.

errm cos the usa is running out of oil maybe

*Sigh* The effect of an OPEC switch to the euro would be that oil-consuming nations would have to flush dollars out of their (central bank) reserve funds and replace these with euros. The dollar would crash anywhere from 20-40% in value and the consequences would be those one could expect from any currency collapse and massive inflation (think Argentina currency crisis, for example). You'd have foreign funds stream out of the U.S. stock markets and dollar denominated assets, there'd surely be a run on the banks much like the 1930s, the current account deficit would become unserviceable, the budget deficit would go into default, and so on. Your basic 3rd world economic crisis scenario.

Almost but not quite
And I'm actually canadian, right near the border of New york thank you

We're fine. We have lots of oil. I cannot actually believe that the you think the US would sacrifice lives and waste 4 trillion dollars on a war for natural fuel. It' absolutely ridiculous.

Then please tell me what you feel the war in Iraq was all about Euri?

it was all about peace.....yeah rite

I love these sub-arguments.

Anyway....you have proclaimed the downfall of America to have already happened. If you lived near the border of Michigan near, say Detroit, I could see why you might say that. Hell, if I lived near the Amazon River I'd say South America was pretty much a toilet.

Maybe your problem is what you have seen of Buffalo through visits, Washington D.C. from what you have seen on the news, and Hollywood from the movies.

Well, I can't think of any other thing you could form a reference off of so I would like to congratulate you on discovering about 0.001% of what America is about!

Bush cant afford a second front, and those who thinks Iran would be apushover like Iraq is greatly mistaken. Iran aint as worn down military as Iraq was before the allied forces attacked.

Terrorism. That's what is has always been about. The Middle East has not changed for 800 years. The thought of a democracy in the Middle East is inconceivable. Now Iraq and Afghanistan are democracies. The Middle East leaders don't like democracy because it will take power away from them. Believe it or not the Iraq War is successful and is working. Sudan, Syria, and numerous other countries have already discussed negotiations with the US. This isn't just about Iraq. It's about everything. Russia, France, the Phillipines, China. It's all connected. The picture is much bigger than it seems. It's just that people don't seek out information that is not in the media. The media distorts things. The story is already written. They leave out certain facts just for ratings.

For some strange reason people are incredibly impatient. They expect success and peace instantly. A few soldiers die in a war and people stupidly believe that the war is a failure. Soldiers die in wars. It's always been that way.

Wait and see. It's already starting to to get better. Iraq is a democracy. Afghanistan is a democracy. Saddam Hussein is in custody. We have been nothing but successful.

No facts. No data. No arguements. Just sarcasm.

We are NOT going to war with Iran. Iran is already in negotiations with the US. They've already allowed USA inspectors in their country. They folded. So did Syria and Sudan.

I don't live near those, no, I have been however to New York, New Jersey, Buffalo, and surrounding areas, nothing too impressive, and yes I mean the rich part of New York, not the slums.

And I want to congratulate you on assuming Way to go!
Considering my statement is more so about the fact what exactly is America holding on to now?
They are no longer the leading force in technology, medicine, automobiles, nothing really...
And ever since the war happened, their reputation keeps sliding..

So thanks again for that
It's been a pleasure, maybe next time you can call me a terrorist since I'm so unpatriotic to a country I live beside

I have to go. I have ALOT of work to do. I'm taking seven college courses in one semester and I'm already starting to regret it. Any responses will be responded to or rebutted as soon as possible. Thank you.

Isn't that from Life as a House? He played a male prostitute or something.

observant
and it's more so a troubled teen, I'd call him a drug addict if anything

their invading iran now?

the USA running out of oil? Iraq will give us all the oil we need.. so now what is your reason for trying to compel everyone to belive that Bush will be invading Iraq?

edit: I highly doubt an invasion will happen within the next 2 years.. and if it does so be it.. there will be a logical reason why we would invade Iran.. if not bush wont do it. He isnt as stupid as you all think.

OK. sorry, you are far more niave than I thought if you believe that.

Iraq had nothing to do with terrorism, Al Queda was persona non grada with Sadam because he wanted nothing to do with fundamental islamic beliefs. ALso don't declare Iraq as a democracy and a success yet, that's a little of putting the cart before the horse.

There were also no WMD's and no threat. Now that that has been all proven, there has been a shift in saying that this war was all about installing a democracy.

I would also like to hear your thoughts on Russia, France, the Phillipines and China. I'm very interested how you came about to believe these theories of yours.

So, you've been to about 0.01% of America. Good start.

Yeah, I'll give you that one.

There are more important things about daily life in a country than worrying what rank fellow countrymen you don't even know are in relation to the rest of the world.

Well, most Americans don't slam Canada. Why? They don't feel comfortable slamming a country that they have to check every so often to make sure that it's still on the map.

Ok Botanikus, no need to slam a whole country.

Right....lets totally forget about the part where America is the world's largest economy.

It's not about having the leading techonlogy, medicine, or automobiles.

Sure, South Korea has a faster average internet connection than the average US home....but how many of them have automobiles and adequate medical facilities?

Sure Japan creates better cars....but who gets those cars cheaper?

As a whole, there are several countries with better health care than the United States. But how many of them have 290,000,000 people?

Granted I live in Orange Country, so I'm inclined to argue with just about anyone when it comes to nice cars and medical care.

is america invading iran?

Yeah, actually I have no problem with Canada.
Not standing my ground or putting up a semi-reasonable fight, I do have a problem with.

What is that in reference to?

NO

LOL, I'm just messin' with you.

I'll visit the rest when I have a chance
And how do you figure 2 states as being 0.01 percent?

I meant America as a whole....
Really, once upon a time America was the leading country in everything, they were innovating and growing extremely advanced, now where is it headed?

And what part of America do you live in to claim that?

So I should basically never trust Deano because he seems a bit paranoid and loony...

I love how so many of you have this huge stick up your ass how the whole world needs America so desperately
Completely unwilling to admit America wouldn't be able to make it alone either, the world's interdependent, America probably never did, and I can't for-see in the near future it ever ruling supreme

Square mileage of New York state: 49,108
Square mileage of United States: 3,618,770

49,108 / 3,618,770 = 1.4%

And that's assuming you have visited every square inch of New York state.

I can safely claim I've set foot on every single square inch
And some of New Jersey too shockish


And alot of the total is just waste land and desert, that shouldn't count

Since you qouted me....would you care to explain how this relates to what I just posted?

All I pointed out was that instead of being the leader in technology, medicine, and automobiles...they are the world's leading economic force.

I most certainly don't have a stick up my ass, and I am quick to admit that the United States has such an economy because of their relationships with foreign countries.

The United States does have the natural resources to sustain a large population independently, but instead of being a world leader....they would be a 3rd world country.

And what's this about ruling supreme?

If history has taught all of us anything....it's that one nation isn't going to rule supreme. Actually, you might want to pick up a copy of the Constitution, because it clearly states that the United States was established for people of different ideas and beliefs to live together in harmony without the notion "it's my way or the highway"

Why did Iraq hold elections on Sunday if America was trying to rule supreme?

Pretty much.

Link I agree with most of your post and like that you usually communicate in an intelligent manner.

However I have to think that those elections in Iraq probably don't mean alot right now and whatever gov't goes in there will be a puppet on. I hope I'm wrong. I guess we'll have to waite and see.

Oh I totally agree with you there Kharma.

The elections that took place on Sunday were an instrument created and used by the American government. Most candidates have some tie to the American government, and IMO that's pretty tragic.

I need to check a source before I go spouting off about this as if it were a fact, but I believe that next year similar elections are going to take place.

It was pointed out earlier, and I'd like to touch on the subject again.....people need to be patient. It may take 5...maybe 10 elections before a truly recognizable government is fully established...but what happened on Sunday was a start.

Hell, 1/2 of America doesn't support their current President. Would it really be that hard to believe Iraqi's don't fully support their new government?

We beat the living crap out of iraq,afganistan & pakistan so iran will be target practice

YEAH!!!!! GO USA!!!!! USA #1!!!!! YEAH!!!!!! GO TEAM GO!!!!

As far as Im concerned those terrorists dont deserve to live so might as well kill as many as you can

shit

yeah, because they're all just terrorists right?

I see we have an osma lover here

im sure that name will stick too...but its OSAMA
how weak and childish. no you twit, im not an osama lover.
but im also not a muslem hater or a racist. does that make me unamerican?

Im not a racist I just hate the ones with aks burning american flags

so kill them, their families, their neighbors...whoever right?
besides, their lives arent worth as much as ours, correct?
so a few hundred thousand innocent people die...SO WHAT right?


i bet if this was happening in america, you would have a much different outlook

I really dont give a $#it

of coarse you dont. they arent REAL people like you!
and i see you ignored the last line...probably intentionally.

huh. willful proud ignorance. gotta love it

Better start lining up all those americans burning flags too. And when did the U.S. fight Pakistan?

Liberals make laugh sometimes

"duuuuh liberals bad"

i guess thats your conclusion?

impressive

They also make cry, sometimes they make smile, other times they make mad.

me cold

ME MAKE FIRE

FIRE GOOD!!! FIRE WARM!!!!!

^ That's so damn funny when you imagine your avatar saying it.

Back to the primitve

youve got all the facts then yeah?

ROFL!!!!!! dude, seriously when i read your post
i looked at my av and lost it!!! omg thats some funny shit!!!

So basically if you don't want to kill everybody, you are a liberal. Man, they really have loosened up their political platform haven't they?

Yeah that was pretty damn funny!

nah, Tradedy is when I cut my finger comedy is when you walk into and open sewer and die

@ kharma

priceless

u son of a *****
paranoid about what?

To answer the basic question...

Then no, not even slightly; the US has more than enough resources to trounce Iran without any vague threat to itself, Comparisons with Napoleon and Hitler are cretinous on several levels (in assuming a. the American objective would be similar, b. that Iran can be equated to Russia in any reasonable way and c. warfare is still at a stage where the problems that invading Russia created are actually still problems)

oh comon now ya talkin through ya berloody a$$

What the hell is "Tradedy"?

Pakistan?????????

its the cover version of Bee Gees tragedy sung by some who got their front teeth knocked out

Ushgarak, the question wasn't "Can the U.S. beat Iran in a War",? It was "Could the possible invasion of iran be america's downfall?"

America's financial assets are not unlimited, actually they are starting to stress pretty good. The Military is spread pretty thin also, and contrary to what many believe, Iran is gonna be a helluva a tougher fight than Iraq. Also the U.S.'s diplomatic reputation is at an all time low as it's relationships with many of it's allies. So the answer to the question is not a definitive "NO".

And Finti, that's why I didn't know, cause I hate the Beegee's and I have all my teeth, thanks for the info though.

guess Bee Gees could have sung Iran to its knees

I answered that question. I said, and firmly believe (as does anyone with a good grasp of the facts) that the resources of the US are more than enough to do this without difficulty.

Iran won't be that much more tough, I dunno why people think that- they couldn't even beat Iraq. The US relations will, frankly, not be much further affected by such action. The people that would hate them for it already do. And money? They have to spare, big time.

Sorry, if you think the US cannot do it, you are way wrong. They could if they wanted to.

they could if they wanted to?
i dont think it would be as simple as that ush

It is as simple as that. If the US wants it, it is going to happen. I know no-one else wants to feel that powerless, but that is how it is. They have that power and can use it if they want.

Ush, I disagree with you, either way, let's hope we don't find out.

That's just wishful thinking on your part, KD. I can't think of any apparent evidence that shows the US could not do it.

I have to agree with Ush on this...

Who's going to do anything about it?

Iran....a tough fight? Iraq was overrun in 8 days, with less than 100 American casualties.

What is Iran going to do against the American Navy and Air Force? The greater the opposition, the more bombs the US will drop. The "shock and awe" you saw in Iraq would be a small taste of what COULD be instore for a nation that tried serious opposition.

Obviously allies could stand against the US and tell them that what they are doing is wrong....but who would be the first to make that stand?

America has the ability to be a big bully..and most countries won't stand up against them because after they kill thousands of innocents....they just shrug their shoulders and say "but we liberated them." *does Bush confused face*

The military information on Iran is not suffiecient enough for an attack

iran is twice the size of iraq...have u bothered readin the link?

well, lets just hope if we do go to war with iran,
it goes as smoothly as when we 'beat the living crap out of pakistan'

What the hell does that matter? Size doesn't magically make it better. It's overall ability to seriously resist the US is sitll non-existant!

And if they are serious about it, they'll have all the info they need. They'll be working on it long in advance of any declaration.

then tell me why they do the death toll keep rising if they have such a bloody control of the situation

US cant do it alone, they need suport and those few who still suported the Iraqi war will not support a new war in the region. Why? because of the stability of the middle east aint stable at all and two many sparks might engulf the entire region into war.

America is just a bully towrds land who hasnt got a great military defence

look, we are all missing the real issue, and that is CONTAINING iran should we occupy it. its not possible without pulling our troops out of iraq. no way in hell can we occupy both iran and iraq and keep any reasonable order. shit we cant even keep order in iraq now.

so yeah, i agree with link and ush that should the u.s. invade, the iranian military will get squashed. thats obvious

well tehy dont have enough info, thats why stuff like covert operation into Iran leaks out, and if chaught the US would look lwould look like the agressor

There won't be any member bashing here! If I catch anyone bashing another member this thread is getting close. And warnings will be issue.

And NO this is not your typical American that sensors other peoples opinions! No bashing means NO bashing!

It's not missing the point- the idea was advanced that attacking Iran could prove the downfall of the US as a superpower just as Germany or France attacking Russia was. And that idea is being throughly rebutted. The difficultites the US might have in an occupation are a different issue; for the time being I am smashing the idea that militarily defeating Iran would be any part of the problem.

so perhaps a new debate is needed?

could the occupation of iraq and iran be the downfall of the usa...something along those lines

No an attack on Iran wont be a downfall of the US as a superpower

Ush at what point did I say the U.S. could not be victorious over Iran? I said that it will be more difficult than they think it will be. Funny thing is that a while ago I sauid that sure the U.S. will initially clobber the Iraqi forces, but then they'll have to deal with the worst gueruilla warfare that they've had to deal with in 30 years. Iranians will not run like Iraqis did because the Iraqis really didn't give a crap about dying for Sadam. This would be a different war, same sort of venue, but a different cast of characters.

As for apparent evidence, there is not alot of that to be found anywhere.

And I also said that this war would add onto already existing financial and diplomatic stresses the U.S. is experiencing. Do you actually think any country has unlimited amounts of money and goodwill?



You kill me!

The US has enough financing. More than enough. And the Diplomatic question is a non-starter.

The cost of a war with Iran would be more than the Capitol hill would tolerate

What would the goals of invading Iran be? Everyone should probably discuss that a little further.

America's goals when invading Iraq were to a. Remove Saddam Hussein from power b. prove he had weapons of mass destruction.

The death toll keeps rising because America is sticking around to reestablish their preference of government in a country that is otherwise left with no government at all. If America stayed in Iran afterwards to establish a democracy...then yes, Iran has the potential to be much worst.

Also, I said that if an invasion happened between the two.....America would have to resort to a draft. In that case....I still stand by my statement that Iran would create little resistance.

America most certainly CAN do it all alone (they have the resources), but they WON'T. As clumsy and stupid as Bush seems, he's really not that stupid. He didn't get the coalition that he wanted, but he got just enough support to spread the blame around. I agree that no one will follow America to another war, and that is one of the main reasons why I don't believe a war will take place.

I hesistate to agree with that last comment, only because the vendetta in Iraq was personal....it was a coincidence that Iraq's military sucked. If they attack Iran...then YES, they are nothing but pathetic bullies....and that will be the day I'm ashamed to be an American.

They said that about World War II. The resources are there if the US wants to do it, is what I repeat. The only determining factor is IF the US wants to do it. There is no point saying they can't do it if they don't want to, that is self-evident.

chill out
i was joking

Does everyone here WANT to see America fall? Good Lord! The anti-Americanism here is staggering.

what good ar resources when the will to suport it in their own country aint there. The death toll from Iraq aint boosting the suport of yet another conflict in that region

who is anti american?

I agree finz

Perhaps I should have pointed you to some of my earlier arguements in this thread when I said that there wouldn't be a war.


Everything we've been arguing about was in regards to the war actually happening.

If a war happend US would ponder the Irani forces. The resistance on the Iranian side would be much thougher then what they met in Iraq though due to the fact that Iran is more of a religious state, more fanatical than Iraq was.

The US covert operations in Iran are on behalf of Israel who is planning preemptive strikes against Irans nuclear facilities.

US dont do anything on behalf of others if they dont benefit from it themselves

You. And nearly everybody else on this thread.

lol
yeah im anti american...whateva
id tell u if i was...

I aint anti american, just because I dont agree with everything they do doesnt make me anti american

The f ucked up Evangelical Christians who are currently running the United States believe it is their Christian duty to protect "the chosen people".

Their benefits are eternal salvation!

I'm 1/2 Anti-American; against the half that voted Bush!

I have different views on the war but I stand behind bush so I know he wil make good judgement on what we should do if america was ever attecked.I can't see it happening but you never know.JM

what do you call 9 11 then

All I've heard on this forum is "America will fall" or "America will lose" THAT's what I call anti-Americanism.

thats not a wish, my narrow minded judgmental friend.
its a concern.

I'm not all that concerned about it honestly. Not that I want America to fall I just don't think it's going to happen any time soon.

did i say that?
i dont want america to lose....america are allies

President Bush made some mistakes in a post-war Iraq but hopefully things will get better.

Also I don't think this whole "war in Iran" thing is going to happen either. I sure hope I'm right... I'll be really pissed if we start another war.