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In the book if i'm right Gandalf the White fought against the Witch King, and in the ROTK they just use him as a traffic light, hitting with a little light the Nazguls, and then fighting against the army of Mordor, but he doesn't use his magic powers.It was wrong from my personal opinion, also the fight with the Witch King could have to be most spectacular except for the defeat of Sauron.

P.S. Is it my impression or Viggo Mortensen have a facial espression of someone who has been hittend in the OO and is feeling pain for all the duration of the movie when he's not fighting?

I'm not going to comment about Aragorn.

About the witch king fight, that was the most disapointing added scene, it did no good...I just skip it

disapointing? He had a big flaming sword
He tells Gandalf hes going to kill him!

Gandalf didnt fight him because 'no man can kill him' and as far as i can tell, Gandafl is a man. Plus, he didnt have one of those sexy noldor swords.

If he killed wiki, theoden would live, the charge wouldnt be as dramatic, wouldnt be as effective on the audience and would overall be disapointing.

Plus- Viggo is droolio

... anyway, they did fight... kinda... Just don't ***** without having seen the EE...

tons of things from the book are inaccurate and it pisses me off, but oh well

In the book, they just had a stand-off, but no real "one-on-one fight" per se. It was a bit like the movie, only in the book, Gandalf didn't fell off from Shadowfax and looked like a powerless wimp.

About Viggo's facial expression, well, Aragorn in the book was always described as " ragged and grim-looking" so Viggo and the crew wanted to pull that off.

And sauron, your sig is awesome! I remember that from way back Valentine's Day of last year. Oh, I remember some tension.

Lets not go into that shall we?

OK.

Why are you cooking legolas' lungs?

She isn't cooking Legolas' lungs..she's cooking inside Legolas' lungs lol Isn't this a bit off topic.....

What happened between Sauron and sb last year? I want to know?
(Really off-topic)

lol, nothing happened between us.

But like sauron said, let's not get into it, or just ask him via PM if you're really interested.

if your really interest dont ask me.
Infact, dont ask anybody or even try to think about asking me or anybody.

I'm trying to remember. I just remember, that me and s-b, were falling in love very soon around that time...

I don't think I ever stopped falling

I love you, s-b!

oh yeah....gandalf...he's cool.

srry

... I'm left perplex as usual.
Though being me

their are many reasons but you probably wouldnt like those either.

I agree, the Witch-King died too soon and too easy, the Witch-King is symbolized as a powerful being and slayed as an unpowerful being.
It sure should have been more spectacular, it would have been even better when the Witch-King slayed Gandalf, for as I said before: it symbolizes a powerful being...

But thats not how it happend in the book ^^ and tehy wouldn't have added that drastic of a scene to the movie...

There is a short scene in the EE...so you might wanna watch taht...though it doesnt really add too much

To my opinion the movie is completely different, I would rather call it a "based-on" movie, which never is the same, but always (a little or more) follows its own path...

I understand compleatly...it is a compleatly differnet entity from the book, but They dont add in such huge scens as Gandalf being killed by Wiki and destroy the entire plot...that just wouldnt work...

No, but it would be fun to see Gandalf being slayed by the Great Witch-King, I would love to see Gandalf bleed....
Hahahaha

lol....

yeah...and it would involve more WIKI

Yeah, we don't see him often in the movie, all the Great ones we do not see often. I will just hope they make a movie of the samirillion and then we only can hope to see Melkor, that would be gooooood...

Melkor :droolio:

WIKI

WHO MADE THE WITCH-KING?
SAURON! You should get on your knees for Him! Not for the Witch-King!

yeh....Sauron...

Me loves WIKI

What would the Witch-King do with you? haha

lol...i dunno...But WIKI makes me happyish

Not so happy being stabbed by a Morgul-blade...

no...but Wiki is an awsome character...

and once again we are way off topic

But Sauron is the Dark Lord and all creatures (human or non-human) shall kneel before Him, for He shall return...and there shall be no victory against Mordor or Him, YOU WILL ALL DIE!

gandalf isnt a man, he's a wizard, and refers to men as if he wasnt one of them, because he isnt. and furthermore, gandlaf wuld whip the b*tch king's arse.

Evidently he wouldnt, thats why the Witch king took him out

haha you have such a simple way to say things inkeeper.
Jackstrain is BURN!!!

Originally posted by The Inkeeper
disapointing? He had a big flaming sword
He tells Gandalf hes going to kill him!

Gandalf didnt fight him because 'no man can kill him' and as far as i can tell, Gandafl is a man. Plus, he didnt have one of those sexy noldor swords.



well sed i dont think id fite or even attempt to fite someone with a swordlike that ....

Originally posted by The Inkeeper
Evidently he wouldnt, thats why the Witch king took him out

Well said Wiki is better then gandalf..

^yup

The guy that wrote that scene in the EE of ROTK was drunk, he dont know nothing about the real story of JRRT. Look, to begin with, Gandalf defeated a Balrog! A Balrog is far more powerfull them the little witch king (that was only a men before), and Gandalf defeated him when he was grey, imagine what he could do now that he is white.

About the part that said that no men could ever kill him: it is just a profecy or something like it, and tolkien like to write things like that in his books (if you guys realy understand about LOTR you should know that!). That doesent mean that Gandalf couldnt kill him even if he try to, it means that was suposed to be woman, and it was, and if a woman could kill him them Gandalf could turn him into ashes.

In the book, I belive you have read it, Gandalf and witch king just look to each other, nothing else! Or Gandalf would kill him right away, it would be far more easy then a Balrog!

In the Return of The King book, when Sauron was looking to everyone, only Gandalf was imponent beyond his eyes. (only Gandalf!)

In the first book TOLKIEN wrote that Gandalf would become like the dark lord himself if he take the ring, so, logicaly, Gandalf is powerfull enough to Defeat Sauron if he dont wear the ring, and Gandalf would certainly defeat him after he became white, because Tolkien wrote in his book ( you just have to read it) that no power on earth could hurt him, and that leads to Gandalf x witch king, the "powerfull" witch king could never, ever have hurted him like he did on the movie!

Oh and there is one more thing, Gandalf is a Maiar for Cryst Sake, there is no way the witch king is more powerful then Gandalf, he was only a man before, and Gandalf was an acient spirit, older then the earth, more powerfull them all other races (especialy dark spirits corrupted by Sauron) just the Valars where more powerfull them the maiars!

To finish this I want to say that you guys that think the witch king is more powerful than Gandalf (hehe)...go to hell and stay there forever, you are not real fans of TLOTR and dont have to put your opinions about something you have saw in a movie. Think with me guys: Wich King can defeat Gandalf, but Gandalf is a Maiar, Sauron is a Maiar as well, Hmm...
so witch king is strong enouth to destroy Sauron? Hmm... I DONT THINK SO!!!!! You guys are nutts!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If you were as big a book fan as you say you are, you will have noted that the significant blow was struck by Merry- a Hobbit, not a Man- not by Eowyn.

Only Merry was carrying a weapon that could hurt the Witch-King.

(that's not true; so was Aragorn, but the point still remains).

What the Witch-King was before is irrelevant; he is a very potent threat indeed and Tolkien clearly builds him up as one, even compared to Gandalf.

Originally posted by Gandalfjon
The guy that wrote that scene in the EE of ROTK was drunk, he dont know nothing about the real story of JRRT. Look, to begin with, Gandalf defeated a Balrog! A Balrog is far more powerfull them the little witch kingnNot true (that was only a men before), and Gandalf defeated him when he was grey, imagine what he could do now that he is white.

About the part that said that no men could ever kill him: it is just a profecy or something like it, and tolkien like to write things like that in his books (if you guys realy understand about LOTR you should know that!). That doesent mean that Gandalf couldnt kill him even if he try to, it means that was suposed to be woman, and it was, and if a woman could kill him them Gandalf could turn him into ashes. How sexist, and i disagree

In the book, I belive you have read it, Gandalf and witch king just look to each other, nothing else! Or Gandalf would kill him right away, it would be far more easy then a Balrog! Yet again not true, otherwise Gandalf would have killed him and saved alot of trouble, he knoes nobody else is gonna kill him so why not get rid of the enemy's main asset?

In the Return of The King book, when Sauron was looking to everyone, only Gandalf was imponent beyond his eyes. (only Gandalf!)

In the first book TOLKIEN wrote that Gandalf would become like the dark lord himself if he take the ring, so, logicaly, Gandalf is powerfull enough to Defeat Sauron if he dont wear the ring, and Gandalf would certainly defeat him after he became white, because Tolkien wrote in his book ( you just have to read it) that no power on earth could hurt him, and that leads to Gandalf x witch king, the "powerfull" witch king could never, ever have hurted him like he did on the movie! This is the same Gandalf who couldn't fight a pack of wolves in the hobbit? Oh yeah and if Gandalf took the ring he would become a super-fly white guy yeah, but it would **** him up big style, he cant control the ring only Sauron can. Sauron and Gandalf are pretty evenly matched in my book but i give the fight to Sauron. The withking would totally maul Gandalf also

Oh and there is one more thing, Gandalf is a Maiar for Cryst Sake, there is no way the witch king is more powerful then Gandalf, he was only a man before, and Gandalf was an acient spirit, older then the earth, more powerfull them all other races (especialy dark spirits corrupted by Sauron) just the Valars where more powerfull them the maiars! Cryst? What God do you worship? If Gandalf if stronger than dark corrupted spirits then why did he basically have to kill himself to defeat the Balrog? If he could Kill the Witchking so easilly why doesnt he confront him? Your point about Wiki, being only a man before is true, but he is much more now. Gandalf hasn't conquered kingdoms like Wiki has, Wiki deserves his reputation.

To finish this I want to say that you guys that think the witch king is more powerful than Gandalf (hehe)...go to hell and stay there forever, you are not real fans of TLOTR and dont have to put your opinions about something you have saw in a movie. Think with me guys: Wich King can defeat Gandalf, but Gandalf is a Maiar, Sauron is a Maiar as well, Hmm...
so witch king is strong enouth to destroy Sauron? Hmm... I DONT THINK SO!!!!! You guys are nutts!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Maybe so but at least i can spell 'nuts' Put it this way mate, i am a real fan of LotR and i believe the Withking would not only defeat gandalf, but just to rip off The Rock he would.....Take him to jabroni drive, to the smackdown hotel and LAYETH THE SMACKADOWN ALL OVER HIS CANDY ASS. Wiki could defeat gandalf, a maiar. Things like that can happen you know. WHat about Luthien, the lil elf lady who knocked Morgoth out? Or perhaps Fingolfin who totally gave Morgoth a good fight? Two elves can fight and nearly beat a Valar but a supremely evil, powerful and admitedly (by a powerful elf warrior himself) undefeatable being cant beat a maiar? *cough* I DONT THINK SO!!!!!!!! you are nutTs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Go to hell and stay there Biatch

Originally posted by The Inkeeper
wow...thanks for saving me the trouble of having to reply, thus making me the good cop to your bad cop

I like being bad cop, being disliked by everyone and not generally caring is a nice feeling

He shouldn't be such a fool.

Originally posted by The Inkeeper
I like being bad cop, being disliked by everyone and not generally caring is a nice feeling

He shouldn't be such a fool. and yet without the fools, who then will bring us much merriment and haughty ale whilst we pine away for a past no longer within our grasps. a time when men where men and the women were curvalicious and full of heat and passion and most willing for a quid or a penny for a rye?

Well, you likewise don't say a thing about Gandalf not even being able to take on the wolves in The Hobbit. In Mirkwood, Gandalf even considers sacrificing his own life to create an effect powerful enough to save the others. You are ascribing power to Gandalf that he does not have.

Maia are not Gods; Tolkien would be displeased to hear them called so. In any case, Gandalf is using the power he has. I am unsure what Nazgul-beating incident you are referring to.

Originally posted by K3VIL
In the book if i'm right Gandalf the White fought against the Witch King, and in the ROTK they just use him as a traffic light, hitting with a little light the Nazguls, and then fighting against the army of Mordor, but he doesn't use his magic powers.It was wrong from my personal opinion, also the fight with the Witch King could have to be most spectacular except for the defeat of Sauron.


In the book Gandalf does not fight the Witch King, since he would be destined to die - remember no man could possibly kill him, which is why Eowen could and did.

I am just wondering, since Gandalf is not strictly speaking a man but a mythrandir - would that make any difference - does anyone know?

An Istari, you mean.

It depends how yopu interpret Glorfindel's words, but I have always been firmly of the opinion that as Tolkien specifies VERY clearly that it is Merry's blow that was the critiical one in that fight- as I say, he was carrying the weapon that could do the harm- that the Prophecy did indeed refer to race, not gender.

Gandalf did not fight all nine, Gandalf fought four or five, he says so himself. He also states that nobody could defeat or survive against the nine united.

Originally posted by The Inkeeper
Gandalf did not fight all nine, Gandalf fought four or five, he says so himself. He also states that nobody could defeat or survive against the nine united.

then how did aragorn defeat them all at weathertop?

He didn't.

You forget also that the Witch-King is Sauron's greatest warrior and most feared one who Gandalf even feared. Gandalf couldn't kill the Witch-King no matter how hard he tried. No man can kill the Witch-King

Originally posted by Batman Returns
then how did aragorn defeat them all at weathertop?

Precisely correct - he did not defeat them but he only 'pushed them away' - at the end not a single one dies there.

Ushgarak - copletely agree with you - it must have been a race difference rather than sex. Yet why does Eowen become the hero in the movie - misunderstanding of the story or deliberate action?

Because they hadn't done the set-up for Merry in the Barrow Downs, so they could really only make it have any impact with Eowyn.

Originally posted by Batman Returns
then how did aragorn defeat them all at weathertop? On the weathertop their were only like 5

First off the Witch-King left Gandalf because Rohan have came at last and a couple of thousand Rohirrim seems more important then one wizard. And Gandalf can use his powers! That's why he's on Middle-Earth to begin with. Gandalf said himself that he never fought all nine RingWraiths but they chased him and yes Gandalf can be killed like anyone else.

If Gandalf the White were as strong as Sauron then he would not fear him as much as he does. Why do you think he is putting so much faith into Frodo?

That's just ass-backwards, Gandalfjon. Where does it say that he DID fight all the Nazgul? That's up to you to show, that for us to show he did not- that's just common sense.

You simply cannot state for definite that Gandalf could not be beaten by the Witch-King. Sorry, but you cannot. White, Maia, or whatever, the Witch-King is a mighty foe and it is not unreasonable to say they were matched- which is certainly how Tolkien promotes it.

I found proof that Gandalf himself said he couldn't defeat the Witch-King!
The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King
Chapter IV: The Siege of Gondor Pg. 800-801 (One volume edition)
'Is Faramir come?' he asked.
'No,' said Gandalf. 'But he still lived when I left him. Yet he is resolved to stay with the reargurad, lest the retreat over the Pelennor become a rout. He may, perhaps, hold his men together long enough, but I doubt it. He is pitted against a foe too great. For one has come that I feared.'
'Not - the Dark Lord?' cried Pippin, forgetting his place in his terror.
Denethor laughed bitterly. 'Nay, not yet, Master Peregrin! He will not come save only to triumph over me when all is won. He uses others as his weapons. So do all great lords, if they are wise, Master Halfling. Or why should I sit here in my tower and think, and watch, and wair, spending even my sons? For I can still wield a brand.'
He stood up and cast opened his long black cloak, and behold! he was clad in mail beneath, and grit with a long sword, great-hilted in a sheath of black and silver. 'Thus have I walked, and thus now for many years have I slept,' he said, 'lest we age the body should grow soft and timid.'
'Yet now under the Lord of Barad-dur the most fell of all his captains is already master of your outer walls' said Gandalf. 'King of Angmar long ago, Sorcerer, Ringwraith, Lord of the Nazgul, a spear of terror in the hand of Sauron, shadow of despair.'
'Then, Mithrandir, you had a foe to match you,' Said Denethor. 'For myself, I have long known who is chief captain of the hosts of the Dark Tower. Is this all that you have returned to say? Or cab it be that you have withdrawn because you are overmatched?'
Pippin trembled, fearing that Gandalf would be stung to sudden wrath, but his fear was needless. 'It might be so,' Gandalf answered softly. 'But our trial of strength is not yet come. And if words spoken of old be true blah, blah, blah...
(How do you put a ^ over words like you should for Nazgul?)

i dont know who said the withcking COULDNT defeat gandalf, but they are wrong. the witchking is presented in the book and now in the movie as a match for gandalf.

I for one am happy it was added into the extended edition, cause it explains why Gandalf does not have his staff when they go to the black gate, cause the witch king destroys his staff. I was wondering what had happened to it when i first saw the movie in the theater, and then when i saw the extened edition i was like oooo that's why. It had been a while since i read the book.

How do you put a ^ above words like Nazguls?
And the Nazguls are not powers from earth. Sauron is an Angelic being and he gave the Nazguls their might through the rings

Peter Jackson **** that scene up between the witch king and Gandalf, if they were to really fight gandalf would have owned him.

Why do people have a false sense of Gandalf's power? It says it in the book between Denethor and Gandalf. Gandalf said himself the Witch-King was stronger

Originally posted by Celestial
Why do people have a false sense of Gandalf's power? It says it in the book between Denethor and Gandalf. Gandalf said himself the Witch-King was stronger
Will you please quote that? If you remember correctly Gandalf the Grey fought all 9 Nazgul on Weathertop with no problem, why wouldnt he be able to destroy the Witch King? Gandalf was a Maiar(an Angel). Here's a quote that I would like you to read.


"Gandalf: Dangerous, And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet."

also here's another quote....

"The Dark Lord has Nine. But we have One, mightier then they are: the White Rider. He has passed through the fire and the abyss, and they shall fear him."

If Gandalf would have fought the Witch King Gandalf would have totally ahniliated him.

Fought all 9 on Weathertop???

Where the heck is this coming from?

Originally posted by The Inkeeper
disapointing? He had a big flaming sword
He tells Gandalf hes going to kill him!

Gandalf didnt fight him because 'no man can kill him' and as far as i can tell, Gandafl is a man. Plus, he didnt have one of those sexy noldor swords.

If he killed wiki, theoden would live, the charge wouldnt be as dramatic, wouldnt be as effective on the audience and would overall be disapointing.

Plus- Viggo is droolio

is gandalf a man or saruman or *BAD SPELLING APROCHING* radaghast,
there miar arent they? istari?? but thats beside the piont, K3VIL would you fight someone whose sword was on fire?? me thinks not

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Fought all 9 on Weathertop???

Where the heck is this coming from?
The fellowship of the ring. I cant find the quote right now but its some where in the Fellowship of the Ring book.

I just looked, nowhere does it say that. Only thing it says about Gandalf and Weathertop that I've found is this:

'I think now,' said Strider, 'that the enemy has been watching this place for some days. If Gandalf ever came here, then he must have been forced to ride away, and he will not return. In any case we are in great peril here after dark, since the attack of last night, and we can hardly meet greater danger wherever we go.'

This is on page 194 of my copy of LOTR, which is the single-edition paperback.

Its in there somewhere, trust me its in there. I remember reading it.

Check Many Meetings or Council of Elrond I think its in those chapters

I will look again, then.

Found this, but it doesn't prove anything to your point...

'I galloped to Weathertop like a gale, and I reached it before sundown on my second day from Bree - and they were there before me. They drew away from me, for they felt the coming of my anger and they dared not face it while the Sun was in the sky. But they closed round at night, and I was besieged on the hell-top, in the old ring of Amon Sul. I was hard put to it indeed: such light and flame cannot have been seen on Weathertop since the war-beacons of old.
At sunrise I escaped and felt towards the north. I could not hope to do more. It was impossible to find you, Frodo, in the wilderness, and it would have been folly to try with all the Nine at my heels. So I had to trust to Aragorn. But I hoped to draw some of them off, and yet reach Rivendell ahead of you and send out help. Four Riders did indeed follow me, but they turned back after a while and made for the Ford, it seems. That helped a litle, for there were only five, not nine, when your camp was attacked.' (pp 257-258)

Just says Gandalf fought them, not how many of them.

Originally posted by K3VIL
In the book if i'm right Gandalf the White fought against the Witch King, and in the ROTK they just use him as a traffic light, hitting with a little light the Nazguls, and then fighting against the army of Mordor, but he doesn't use his magic powers.It was wrong from my personal opinion, also the fight with the Witch King could have to be most spectacular except for the defeat of Sauron.

P.S. Is it my impression or Viggo Mortensen have a facial espression of someone who has been hittend in the OO and is feeling pain for all the duration of the movie when he's not fighting?

Why? Cuz Gandalf is b!tch. Thats why.

Originally posted by Lana
Found this, but it doesn't prove anything to your point...

'I galloped to Weathertop like a gale, and I reached it before sundown on my second day from Bree - and they were there before me. They drew away from me, for they felt the coming of my anger and they dared not face it while the Sun was in the sky. But they closed round at night, and I was besieged on the hell-top, in the old ring of Amon Sul. I was hard put to it indeed: such light and flame cannot have been seen on Weathertop since the war-beacons of old.
At sunrise I escaped and felt towards the north. I could not hope to do more. It was impossible to find you, Frodo, in the wilderness, and it would have been folly to try with all the Nine at my heels. So I had to trust to Aragorn. But I hoped to draw some of them off, and yet reach Rivendell ahead of you and send out help. Four Riders did indeed follow me, but they turned back after a while and made for the Ford, it seems. That helped a litle, for there were only five, not nine, when your camp was attacked.' (pp 257-258)

Just says Gandalf fought them, not how many of them.

Where its say "all Nine at my heels" gives a big clue.

But thanks for looking that up for me, I knew it was in there some where.

Its clear to me that we all have are Tolkien hero's. Just respect others and read the books, stay with the facts. oh and i would say what wiki would not stand a chance. (i know the hobbits blade was a critical strike , but Eowen's sword killed him so? well blah is what i think ) oh BTW Golllum says they cant be killed. makes me mad

Originally posted by Lana
Found this, but it doesn't prove anything to your point...

'I galloped to Weathertop like a gale, and I reached it before sundown on my second day from Bree - and they were there before me. They drew away from me, for they felt the coming of my anger and they dared not face it while the Sun was in the sky. But they closed round at night, and I was besieged on the hell-top, in the old ring of Amon Sul. I was hard put to it indeed: such light and flame cannot have been seen on Weathertop since the war-beacons of old.
At sunrise I escaped and felt towards the north. I could not hope to do more. It was impossible to find you, Frodo, in the wilderness, and it would have been folly to try with all the Nine at my heels. So I had to trust to Aragorn. But I hoped to draw some of them off, and yet reach Rivendell ahead of you and send out help. Four Riders did indeed follow me, but they turned back after a while and made for the Ford, it seems. That helped a litle, for there were only five, not nine, when your camp was attacked.' (pp 257-258)

Just says Gandalf fought them, not how many of them.
It never says Gandalf fought them. He just said they gave chase to him and that's all.

Exactly. In fact, it precisely makes out that Gandalf a. did not and b COULD not have stood and fought with the 9. They did not approach him at the first meeting because it was not night.

Gandalf did NOT fight the nine Nazgul at any point. He warded them off and then ran like hell.

Gandalf did not even try to attack the four following him. It's worth noting, by contrast, that Glorfindel DID go on the offensive against the Nazgul when he found them.

Originally posted by Celestial
It never says Gandalf fought them. He just said they gave chase to him and that's all.

It said they besieged him, I took that as they attacked and he fought until he could run...but it has been two years since I've last read LOTR so I could have simply misread that, taking it out of context like I did.

It's not vitally important, the point is that the earlier poster said "Gandalf fought all 9 with no problem", which is so much bull. The Nine together were more than anyone could handle, and the Witch-King was the central part of that.

Witch-King is the strongest of the nine and what Ush said is true. It is said that no one can stand against all Nine ringwraiths.

Im providin my quotes again to prove that Gandalf is more powerful


"Gandalf: Dangerous, And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet."

also here's another quote....

"The Dark Lord has Nine. But we have One, mightier then they are: the White Rider. He has passed through the fire and the abyss, and they shall fear him."

That was a comment made ABOUT Gandalf. It's just opinion.

As quotes from Gandalf himself in this thread earlier have shown, he himself did not think he was the Witch-King's superior come to a fight. He at least had the possibility that he might not prevail.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
That was a comment made ABOUT Gandalf. It's just opinion.

As quotes from Gandalf himself in this thread earlier have shown, he himself did not think he was the Witch-King's superior come to a fight. He at least had the possibility that he might not prevail.
Tolkien doesnt lie. In books opinions are facts. Tolkein wouldnt have wrote that if it wasnt true.

The witch king sucks get it through all your stubborn heads. Peter Jackson isnot Tolkein. Gandalf is Maiar of course he beats a man.

Originally posted by JediMasterLuke5
Tolkien doesnt lie. In books opinions are facts. Tolkein wouldnt have wrote that if it wasnt true.

The witch king sucks get it through all your stubborn heads. Peter Jackson isnot Tolkein. Gandalf is Maiar of course he beats a man.

How asinine a statement is that?

It was the opinion of a character in the book. Do all character's opinions in books immediately become fact because it's in a book? Don't be stupid.

But when Tolkien gives his characters lines that contradict the lines of others, then you know they are opinion, not fact. Try readng his conversation with Denethor.

You say we are stubborn- we have simply done our research. Try again.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
But when Tolkien gives his characters lines that contradict the lines of others, then you know they are opinion, not fact. Try readng his conversation with Denethor.

You say we are stubborn- we have simply done our research. Try again.
You have done research that BS, I just gave you proof that Gandalf was greater......

"The Dark Lord has Nine. But we have One, mightier then they are: the White Rider. He has passed through the fire and the abyss, and they shall fear him."

That right there is proof.

Opinion from another character. Not proof. AGAIN. Go read the convo with Denethor.

Please do the courtesy of reading posts correctly.

Originally posted by JediMasterLuke5
You have done research that BS, I just gave you proof that Gandalf was greater......

"The Dark Lord has Nine. But we have One, mightier then they are: the White Rider. He has passed through the fire and the abyss, and they shall fear him."

That right there is proof.

Except, it's not proof. I cannot remember who said that in the book, because as I've said, I haven't read it in a couple years, but it remains the opinion of a character. That does NOT make it fact.

(yay for posting at the same time....)

Originally posted by JediMasterLuke5
Im providin my quotes again to prove that Gandalf is more powerful


"Gandalf: Dangerous, And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet."

also here's another quote....

"The Dark Lord has Nine. But we have One, mightier then they are: the White Rider. He has passed through the fire and the abyss, and they shall fear him."
That was Aragon saying that not Gandalf.

The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King
Chapter IV: The Siege of Gondor Pg. 800-801 (One volume edition)
'Is Faramir come?' he asked.
'No,' said Gandalf. 'But he still lived when I left him. Yet he is resolved to stay with the reargurad, lest the retreat over the Pelennor become a rout. He may, perhaps, hold his men together long enough, but I doubt it. He is pitted against a foe too great. For one has come that I feared.'
'Not - the Dark Lord?' cried Pippin, forgetting his place in his terror.
Denethor laughed bitterly. 'Nay, not yet, Master Peregrin! He will not come save only to triumph over me when all is won. He uses others as his weapons. So do all great lords, if they are wise, Master Halfling. Or why should I sit here in my tower and think, and watch, and wair, spending even my sons? For I can still wield a brand.'
He stood up and cast opened his long black cloak, and behold! he was clad in mail beneath, and grit with a long sword, great-hilted in a sheath of black and silver. 'Thus have I walked, and thus now for many years have I slept,' he said, 'lest we age the body should grow soft and timid.'
'Yet now under the Lord of Barad-dur the most fell of all his captains is already master of your outer walls' said Gandalf. 'King of Angmar long ago, Sorcerer, Ringwraith, Lord of the Nazgul, a spear of terror in the hand of Sauron, shadow of despair.'
'Then, Mithrandir, you had a foe to match you,' Said Denethor. 'For myself, I have long known who is chief captain of the hosts of the Dark Tower. Is this all that you have returned to say? Or cab it be that you have withdrawn because you are overmatched?'
Pippin trembled, fearing that Gandalf would be stung to sudden wrath, but his fear was needless. 'It might be so,' Gandalf answered softly.

Originally posted by Lana
Except, it's not proof. I cannot remember who said that in the book, because as I've said, I haven't read it in a couple years, but it remains the opinion of a character. That does NOT make it fact.

(yay for posting at the same time....)
Tolkein doesnt lie, he doesnt write down statements unless theyre true. If it is said then it is true, opinions do not exist in books becuz of this very reason becuz people think theyre opinions. Opinion in books equal truth.

Gandalf said himself the Witch-King is his equal or even his better and Aragon (who has no idea how strong Gandalf the White is) says he is greater then the nine.

Just look at it this way
Maiar>>>>>>Man

Look at it like this

Sauron>>>>>Witch-King>(=)Gandalf

Originally posted by JediMasterLuke5
Tolkein doesnt lie, he doesnt write down statements unless theyre true. If it is said then it is true, opinions do not exist in books becuz of this very reason becuz people think theyre opinions. Opinion in books equal truth.

That is one of the most idiotic things I have ever heard. So every opinion held by a character in a book must be truth? Characters in books CAN be wrong. Opinions CAN exist in books, believe it or not. Just because an author has a character think a certain way, does NOT mean the author himself thinks that way.

Goodness.

Originally posted by Lana
That is one of the most idiotic things I have ever heard. So every opinion held by a character in a book must be truth? Characters in books CAN be wrong. Opinions CAN exist in books, believe it or not. Just because an author has a character think a certain way, does NOT mean the author himself thinks that way.

Goodness.

i thought this was common sense

Originally posted by bilb
i thought this was common sense

So did I...

He's stubborn and doesn't want to admit Gandalf is defeated

Originally posted by JediMasterLuke5
Tolkein doesnt lie, he doesnt write down statements unless theyre true. If it is said then it is true, opinions do not exist in books becuz of this very reason becuz people think theyre opinions. Opinion in books equal truth.

Why the heck do you never do the courtesy of reading posts properly?

Even if it were so, and Tolkien liked to put truth in people's mouths, as we have pointed out, other characters in the book CONTRADICT that pov with their words.

They can't BOTH be speaking truth, can they? So obviously your idea there is wrong. And you know what- we already told you that. Several times. Aragorn says that and Gandalf passes no comment. But Denethor says the opposite- that the Gandalf cannot stand against the Witch-King- and Gandalf admits it MIGHT be true. There is no certainity, for sure, but he allows for the possibility. We tell you all this... and yet all you can do is repeat that "Aragorn said it so it must be so because Tolkien would otherwise have not said it". This is one of those 'Why do we bother?' situations.

There is a phenomenon via which people are used as vessels to convey facts- though it is normally in films, not books, as books can simply state facts in prose. But as noted, it is simply common sense to see that it is not the case here!

Glorfindel does not say that a man Cannot slay the Witch King. He prophesies that man will not. I would also mention that just because Glorfindel has made this prophesy doesn't necessarily make it so even the very wise cannot see all ends and whilst the Witch King is slain by Eowyn and Merry it didn't have to happen like this just because Lord Glorfindel said so.

The actual prophesy can be read in Appendix A: Eriador, Arnor, and the Heirs of Isildur:

'Earnur now rode back, but Glorfindel, looking into the gathering dark, said: "Do not pursue him! He will not return to this land. Far off is his doom, and not by the hand of man will he fall."

Even though if Glorfindel prophesied that a man wouldn't kill the Witch-King doesn't mean that it had to happen that way, a prophesy is something that can be fulfilled, not that has to be.

Getting mighty heated in here lol. I thought this was a thread about the movie? No? Well anyway, im just watching, continue.

Originally posted by thefallen544
Glorfindel does not say that a man Cannot slay the Witch King. He prophesies that man will not. I would also mention that just because Glorfindel has made this prophesy doesn't necessarily make it so even the very wise cannot see all ends and whilst the Witch King is slain by Eowyn and Merry it didn't have to happen like this just because Lord Glorfindel said so.

The actual prophesy can be read in Appendix A: Eriador, Arnor, and the Heirs of Isildur:

'Earnur now rode back, but Glorfindel, looking into the gathering dark, said: "Do not pursue him! He will not return to this land. Far off is his doom, and not by the hand of man will he fall."

Even though if Glorfindel prophesied that a man wouldn't kill the Witch-King doesn't mean that it had to happen that way, a prophesy is something that can be fulfilled, not that has to be.

I agree. And I have ahd to argue this point many a time on other forums. Theirs a difference between prophecies and magical spells, or whatever.

Originally posted by Sicky666
Yeah, we don't see him often in the movie, all the Great ones we do not see often. I will just hope they make a movie of the samirillion and then we only can hope to see Melkor, that would be gooooood...

Well, you can always talk with me here, puny mortal.....

Thats a magnificent summary, made even better with the fact it is your first post on these forums. Well done.

Maia are Grater in power then anything on earth, they can be defeated, but they are stronger. Gandalf, Saruman, Sauron and the Balrog are Maia and are stronger then the witchking.
Gandalf fighted the Balrog when he was Grey, and fighted with all nine nazguls, including the witch king, on the wind top. He was victorious on both battles.
In the book, Gandalf was doing the same thing he did with the Balrog and he would defeat witch king if he dind flew away, i believe, because balrog is much more powerfull then a nazgul, that is out of question.

Gosh, people still confused here? At no point was Gandalf ever victorious in battle against all nine Nazgul. He ran away! he himself is not sure if he can defeat the Witch-King, so it doesn;t matter what the hell he is, the fact is there is no certainty of victory.

He ran away ultimatley, but he was set upon by all Nine. Besieged under Night as they Dared not face his wrath during the day. I admit there is no certainty of a defeat on either side as Tolkien didn't work on such rules there is never any clear cut winner. Still, I think its healthy and natural to debate such points and it still stands that Gandalf was set upon by the Nine upon weathertop and he defended himself through the night until at daybreak he could flee. He didn't defeat them, but they did not defeat him either.

Err, talk about 'being able to debate' all you like; fact is the poster before me says he was 'victorious' in that battle. He was not. Stating falsehoods is not conductive to good debate.

Fair point

Gandalf shoulda owned wiki. gandalf is one of the maiar for crying out loud. wiki is powerful but i doubt he is in the same league as a balrog and gandalf owned that.


bring back venom so we can have CARNAGE!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by thefallen544
He ran away ultimatley, but he was set upon by all Nine. Besieged under Night as they Dared not face his wrath during the day. I admit there is no certainty of a defeat on either side as Tolkien didn't work on such rules there is never any clear cut winner. Still, I think its healthy and natural to debate such points and it still stands that Gandalf was set upon by the Nine upon weathertop and he defended himself through the night until at daybreak he could flee. He didn't defeat them, but they did not defeat him either.

We don't know how the battle went now do we? For all we know Gandalf hid in a hole and chased the Nazgul away with a stick as they tried to enter the hole. The thing is we just don't know. Saying Gandalf stood against the Nine doesn't mean what he would do against the Witch-king who was strengthed by Sauron in single combat.

We don't know how stronger the Witch-king became and we don't know how powerful Gandalf the White was. Gandalf himself had doubts as to whom would be the victor of the fight. Gandalf even stated that the Witch-king was his equal at one point in the book and even proclaimed that he feared the leader of the Nine.

To actually say "Gandalf would defeat the Witch-king" or vise versa is pointless because of lack of TRUE knowledge on the two.

Originally posted by ESB -1138
We don't know how the battle went now do we? For all we know Gandalf hid in a hole and chased the Nazgul away with a stick as they tried to enter the hole. The thing is we just don't know. Saying Gandalf stood against the Nine doesn't mean what he would do against the Witch-king who was strengthed by Sauron in single combat.




Exactly. Oi, I'm glad someone brought this up! On another forum that I visit the people there are actually convined that Hurin, I think it was, could defeat both Obi-Wan Kenobi and Anakin at the same time, because he managed to kill 60 Trolls by himself...

But Tolkien himself tells us that the Nazgul have no great physical power against the fearless (something that during the battle at Pelennor Gandalf was certainly fearless, he and Shadowfax being the only living things that did not flee before the Witch-King) what Tolkien states in

Letter 210 is "Their peril is almost entirley due to the unreasoning fear they inspire (like Ghosts). They have no great physical power against the fearless; but what they have, and the fear that they inspire, is enormously increased in darkness"

Gandalf describes the battle on weathertop as in that such fire and light had not been seen upon Amun-Sul since the watchtowers of old. Fire and light that Aragorn and the Hobbits saw from a great distance, hardly hiding in a hole and chasing them away with a stick. I am not categorically saying that Gandalf would have won against the Witchking, it is my personal opinion that he would.

What I am saying that he did indeed defend himself against all of the Nine upon Weathertop for long enough for Daybreak and his escape and I am more certainly suggesting that they did not attack him during the day because they feared his wrath under the sun why they were not at their most powerful. Even the Witchking in his case is not raised to hi strength as he is in Volume III with Tolkien stating
"The Witch-king, their leader, is more powerful in all ways than the others; but he must not yet be raised to the stature of Vol. III. There, put in command by Sauron, he is given an added demonic force. But even in the Battle of the Pelennor, the darkness had only just broken."

Even assuming this vast increase in power Gandalf has also been greatly enhanced by powers beyond that of Sauron or even the Valar, his is sent back and shows a sudden power on some occasions quote Tolkien Letters 156
"He alone is left to forbid the entrance of the Lord of Nazgul to Minas Tirith, when the City has been overthrown and its gates destroyed - and yet so powerful is the whole train of human resistance, that he himself has kindled and organized, that in fact no battle between the two occurs: it passes to other mortal hands."

It is also suggested that Gandalf had enough Power within him, that out of everyone he alone could be expected to Master Sauron if Gandalf were to take the One Ring in letters 246
"Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master him-being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form"
and
"If Gandalf proved the victor, the result would have been for Sauron the same as the destruction of the Ring; for him it would have been destroyed, taken from him for ever"

I would assume that, if albeit with the aid of the Ring Gandalf can be seen as being the only one capable of Mastering Sauron who Gandalf himself admits "Black is still mightier" then I would also assume that his power without the Ring but as the White would equal that of Saurons greatest servant, the Witch-King. Thus in the battle of the Pelennor we can view the two beings of equals and thusly we cannot predict who would win in a physical battle between the two we can only form personal opinions on our own which cannot be taken as fact by either side.

The same was said about Saruman and Galadriel. Just because Gandalf did not back down from the Witch-king does not mean he didn't have fear. Gandalf just knew that he would be the only one capable of standing to the might of the Black Rider.

Tolkien makes it clear that as Olorin was placed in human form as Gandalf he was subject to human emotions.. and fear he felt:
- Fear that the Ring had gotten into the hands of the Nine.
- Fear that he would have to sacrifice his own life to save the ones he loves and for the best of all peoples of M/E.
- Fear that Frodo died in his attempt to destroy the Ring.
- And fear that he had failed the quest and his mission.

What emotion do you think drove the urgency in his mission (the later part) if not fear itself?

Fear is natural and we all need it.

I'm not saying that Gandalf did not feel fear at all, ever. Only to stand before the Witchking alone, to forbid the entrance of the Lord of the Nazgul to Minas Tirith when all others flee shows than Gandalf does not have the "unreasoning fear" that the is the true peril of the Nine.

Gandalf did indeed sacrifice his life to aid the others, he sacrificed, his sacrifice was accepted and he returned enhanced.

I'm not too sure what you're saying there Lupin...

Fear almost always has reason e.g: someone is scared of heights because they are afraid of falling (and then possibly dying).

Gandalf's sacrifice was admired rather than accepted. It was the most selfless act and it was respected and revered by Eru/Illuvatar, that's why he was given a second chance.

Ah I'm just quoting Tolkien in his letters when I say accepted, quote Letters 156
"the crisis had become too grave and needed an enhancement is power. So Gandalf sacrificed himself, was accepted, and enhanced, and returned. 'Yes, that was the name. I was Gandalf'"

Really we're just arguing over semantics here, my main point is that I was trying to reflect that the Nazgul cause an unreasoning fear. The Witchking above all of them, the fear caused at Minas Tirith caused all others to fee and to be unable to act. Gandalf alone was left to forbid the WK entrance.

The very act of Gandalf standing firm and opposing him and addressing the WK in a "Strong" manner (I will provide quotes when I find my copy of the book) suggests to me that whilst he felt fear, it was not an unreasoning fear and that in fact the WK-Gandalf battle would have been closer matched than many see.

It could be argued that by his intellect and command skills Gandalf won the battle regardless. It was through the very train of resistance that he had organised that aveted the battle between WK and Gandalf instead the fight fell to other, moral hands.

You do raise a good point.

Also, I believe if a woman and a hobbit can defeat the WK (and his fell beast) in hand-in-hand combat I don't doubt for one second that Gandalf wouldn't struggle!

Besides we all know why he didn't attack the WK openly and foreably: he is forbidden by the Valar to use his powers like that.

Essentially Gandalf overthrew Sauron as he was enabler that set (organised and kept going) off the chain of events that eventually led to the Dark Lord's downfall.

Gandalf carrying that sword, maybe.

It was the sword that was the vital part of the Witch King's demise.

Glamdring? Care to elaborate..?

Err, no, that's his own sword, and had nothing to do with that demise.

My reference is to the Barrow Blade used to strike the fatal blow, the only weapon that could have done so.

OOH I get you now. It would be great if you were more clear when wording.

Why is the Barrow Blade so important?

Because that is the whole irony of the Witch-King's destruction. The Barrow Blade was taken from the abode of one of the Barrow Wights- but the Barrow Wights were created by a curse from the Witch King whilst he was ruling Angmar; they were the last resting places of the royalty of Cardolan, part of Arnor, which the Witch-King had destroyed.

But as Merry and Pippin picked up blades from there after being kidnapped by the Wights, the irony is that if the Wights had not existed, they would never have got that sword- the blade of a Cardolani royal, often assumed to be the last king of Cardolan.

And as Tolkien notes:

"So passed the sword of the Barrow-downs... but glad would have been to know its fate who wrought it slowly long asgo in the North Kingdom when the Dunedain were young, and chief among their foes was the dread realm of Angmar and its Sorcerer King. No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have deal that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will."

It was the sword that was important, and it was because of the Witch-King's curse that the Hobbits edned up with it. So ultimately, the Witch-King caused his own destruction.

=O Oh wow, I didn't know any of that! V interesting. Thanks!

and the blade started burning

seriously are you all thick. gandalf would batter witchking. Gandalf is the most powerfull being unless sauron returns to full srength (quoted from two towers). Gandalf isnt scared of witchking nor vice versa. sauron is scared of gandalf and aragorn the only ones who poise a threat to him. Gandal has been chosen by the valar and given the powers of the valar to complete the quest. witch king is just a corrupted man with not that much power. look it up yourself. tolkien actually said that if gandalf and the witchking were to meat gandalf would have defeated him.

Seriously, you come in here and straight off call us thick? Way to win the judgemental top prize! Go you!

Gandalf did indeed FEAR the WK. He was in mortal form (as Gandalf, not Olorin) and was subject to the frailty of human form. Gandalf was not chosen by the Valar, it was actually Olorin. These are the same spirit but they are not in the same form. Sounds like you need to do some research.

It's all good to claim Tolkien says something but you need to back it up with a quote and a source otherwise it's just you saying it.

Originally posted by The Secret Fire
Seriously, you come in here and straight off call us thick? Way to win the judgemental top prize! Go you!

Originally posted by JediMasterLuke5
Will you please quote that? If you remember correctly Gandalf the Grey fought all 9 Nazgul on Weathertop with no problem, why wouldnt he be able to destroy the Witch King? Gandalf was a Maiar(an Angel). Here's a quote that I would like you to read.


"Gandalf: Dangerous, And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet."

also here's another quote....

"The Dark Lord has Nine. But we have One, mightier then they are: the White Rider. He has passed through the fire and the abyss, and they shall fear him."

If Gandalf would have fought the Witch King Gandalf would have totally ahniliated him.

Bless you... you are right on the money. It is conceivable that Sauron increased the power of the Witch King for the attack on Gondor (never stated in the book, or the movies), but if not, keep this in mind; he was a hair below the power of Gandalf the Grey- and yes they did clash on top of Weathertop (book and movie). Against Gandalf the White, though very formidable, Witch King falls well short. It's in the books people. read them (it's even in the movies if you pay attention).

Originally posted by The Secret Fire
Seriously, you come in here and straight off call us thick? Way to win the judgemental top prize! Go you!

Gandalf did indeed FEAR the WK. He was in mortal form (as Gandalf, not Olorin) and was subject to the frailty of human form. Gandalf was not chosen by the Valar, it was actually Olorin. These are the same spirit but they are not in the same form. Sounds like you need to do some research.

It's all good to claim Tolkien says something but you need to back it up with a quote and a source otherwise it's just you saying it.

you seem to know your Tolkien. I thought it was stated (or at least strongly implied) in the books that after falling to the Barlog, Gandalf was taken/sent/what have you, into the presence of the Valar, had life restored to him, and returned to Middle-Earth, now wearing the greater mantle of the White Wizard... he returned far more formidable, did he not? And I'm not sure about the difference between Olorin/Gandalf... I thought that Olorin was simply the name the Elves used... what other differences were there between the two?

I just want to ask this: hadn't Aragorn defeat the Witch-King and other 4 ringwraiths ALONE, during the night attack?

Originally posted by kamhal
I just want to ask this: hadn't Aragorn defeat the Witch-King and other 4 ringwraiths ALONE, during the night attack?

He drove them off- not really the same as defeated. Their work (stabbing Frodo with the Morgul blade- hence bringing him into their power) was done. In the books, it is explained that the ringwraiths were not yet fully empowered- their power was growing as in step with the returning/growing power of Sauron. The Witch King in Return of the King was quite a bit more powerful then he was in the first movie.

Gandalf had bigger problems to deal with than the witch king. in a one on one fight Gandalf would have won easily-BUT he was forbidden to fight directly (power to power) with evil. He strove with Sauron and matched power in order to distract him from Frodo so if Sauron > Witch King and Gandalf = Sauron then by substitution Gandalf > Witch King. Page numbers will be in the next edit.

Originally posted by Cap'n Happy
you seem to know your Tolkien. I thought it was stated (or at least strongly implied) in the books that after falling to the Barlog, Gandalf was taken/sent/what have you, into the presence of the Valar, had life restored to him, and returned to Middle-Earth, now wearing the greater mantle of the White Wizard... he returned far more formidable, did he not? And I'm not sure about the difference between Olorin/Gandalf... I thought that Olorin was simply the name the Elves used... what other differences were there between the two?

All I'm sayin is that Olorin and Gandalf are the same BEING but in two different FORMS. Olorin is the SPIRIT FORM (and abides in Aman) and Gandalf is the PHYSICAL FORM (and abides in Middle Earth). If you are not familiar with the history; Olorin was a powerful spirit, called a Maiar (of equal power rank to that of Sauron) and is very old, being created near the beginning of the world. He was hand-picked by the wise in Aman to be sent along with 4 others to persuade the free peoples of ME to resist Sauron without force (hence why you rarely see Gandalf use his powers in open displays). Only when he was sent to ME was he called Gandalf. For thousands of years before his name was Olorin in his home of Aman and is again when he returned.

Yes, that is true, Gandalf was sent back to finish his mission. But not by the Valar as you say. Gandalf was sent back by Eru/Illuvatar himself, as it was within the boundaries of his powers alone to do this.

Sauron was the chief of Morgoth's lieutenants, but Gandalf the gray was barely able to take a Balrog. The white was equal in power to Sauron yes, but he was forbidden to match power for power because he might fall as Saruman did. Sauron > Balrog Balrog = Gandalf (gray). After he was sent back by Mandos, the king of the hall of the dead he was more powerful, strong enough to contend with Sauron. When he returned, he had the full power of the White wizard, which Saruman had before he fell. The difference between Gandalf and Olorin is negligible, as the same consciousness guided both, and they had the same power. Saying Olorin is like saying Gandalf's soul's name.

Exactly: Olorin is Gandalfs soul.

You probably should be reminded that before Durin's Bane, Gandalf was weakened by hundreds of years of travelling as an old man, fighting of a reakawened Necromancer, a gang of Ringwraiths (twice) and along with the stress and pressure of an almost impossible mission I think we can give the guy some freaking credit! The Balrog was only the tip of the iceburg.

Gandolf can't die and whoever says he can is mistaken. His spirit will live and he will just be reborn again. So, no the Wiki Can't kill him

I don't think he would be reborn again, over and over. I think, if the Witch King had killed him that would have been it for Gandalf. The fact he was sent back first, was a rare occurrence indeed it wasn't even something that was done by the Gods ie the Valar.

Tolkien himself states that it was by a "higher authority" in letter 156. Tolkien goes out of his way to stress that the "Gods" were only concerned with the embodied world and its time, but Gandalf 'passed out of thought and time'

The authority higher than the Valar is only Eru, and Gandalf was only sent back due to the weight of his self-sacrifice battling the Balrog.

That being said, I do not think the Witch King could have beaten him. Whilst the two were close to even, Gandalf had, on many times acted as 'angel' in an emergency. To quote 156 again

"he does reveal a sudden power: he twice rescues Faramir. He alone is left to forbid the entrance of the Lord of the Nazgul to Minas Tirith, when the City has been overthrown and its gates destroyed-and yet so powerful is the whole train of human resistance, that he himself has kindled and organized, that in fact no battle between the two occurs: it passes to other mortal hands"

and on the nature of his sacrifice being accepted

"So Gandalf sacrificed himself, was accepted, and enhanced, and returned. 'Yes, that was the name. I was Gandalf.' Of course he remains similar in personality and idiosyncrasy, but both his wisdom and power are much greater"

The "much greater" wisdom and power would suggest to me that, if need be Gandalf was a match for the Witch King, even when he was enhanced. Whilst Gandalf, at one point does say along the lines of "Black is still mightier" I believe he is referring to Sauron himself. Rather than the Witch King. Gandalf is not immune to worry or anxiety so he would doubt his ability to strive against Sauron personally.

The Witch King vs Gandalf would be the ultimate battle in the Lord of the Rings but Tolkien never actually made it possible for one to determine if one could defeat the other. Gandalf the Grey fended off the nine at Weathertop but we don't know what happened there and Tolkien did make note that the nine at that point were more in a kind of scouting mode then battle.

To determine a true superior of these two is something only JRR Tolkien could have done and since he has passed away the answers shall never be known.

Originally posted by Aule
The "much greater" wisdom and power would suggest to me that, if need be Gandalf was a match for the Witch King, even when he was enhanced. Whilst Gandalf, at one point does say along the lines of "Black is still mightier" I believe he is referring to Sauron himself. Rather than the Witch King. Gandalf is not immune to worry or anxiety so he would doubt his ability to strive against Sauron personally.

Gandalf has the capability to strive against Sauron, and deflects his gaze from the ring at a critical juncture shortly after his return to Middle Earth. The exact quote is in my thread, but essentially he gets into a test of wills with Sauron, which tires him out, but which he wins.

The details aren't given, but I suspect it is similar to when, in the Silmarillion, the She- Elf gets into what amounts to a song/magic battle. She sings a 'song of life and growth' against one of Morgoth's servant's 'song of dominion and death.' The details are hazy, so if anyone has a quote or reference please send/post it for me to see.

Deflects his gaze, strive against him by power of minds yes I agree. I meant strive in a more physical sense. In combat, power to power on a battlefield kinda thing.