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Islamic fundamentalists did this...Islamic fundamentalists did that...blah, blah, blah. What about the flip-side to that coin? Check it out one day, and you'll see the beardy-weirdy face of Jesus looking back at you...

We hear biblical references in Bush's speeches all the time...."the crusade for freedom"..."God bless Amercia"..."I welcome faith to help solve the nation's deepest problems"..."The liberty we prize is not America's gift to the world, it is God's gift to humanity"...if you look it up, the back-catelogue is endless...

Do you not think by making Xianity a direct force behind America's 'War on Terror' half the globe is being alienated? It's no wonder that even temperate Muslims view the 'War on Terror' as a direct assult on their beliefs and their way of life.

Outside of the US, most people overtly recognise the ideological belief system behind the campaign as a Xian one. This is because nearly all other democratic nations have long given up the ridiculous linking of the Church and the State. I read a report in a newspaper the other day that well over half Amercians believe in the legitimacy of REAL 'angels'! The article went on to say that there was no data on what the percentage of Europeans thought as the question was deemed too ridiculous to merit a survey!

The majority of the Muslim nations under attack are poor, so their only response to what they see as a fully fledged 'war' is through diabolical acts of terrorism as they lack the capabilities in the most part to act in any other way.

We're not going to see an end to the covert terrorists attacks from the Muslim side, until we see a ceasing of the more cryptically covered Xian ones.

I find it disgusting that America believes it has a right to do this.

Want freedom? Got Jesus? OK...here you are.

What a joke.

Agreed.

completely agreed


...woah...was that an angel?

http://www.matrixmania.com/showthread.php?t=10535&page=1&pp=15
spare yourselves a 7 page bash fest.. he posted this somewhere else..
in any case.. how does an american fundamental come to have a chinese name like Xian?

The xians ought to be told to stop leveling skyscrapers - wait...

It doesn't help that at the begining of the Iraq war Bush called it Crusade. I mean, what the hell was he thinking (if he was)?

lol we knew what happened to the crusaders and Richard the lion heart 900 years ago!!! That time the Arabs were the peaceful people led by Saladin who was a very good person, but the Crusaders made the Arabs very angry.
This time its the other way around but they are similarties, but that was a different time.

Please the middle east is about as peacful as a WWF cagefight

" This is because nearly all other democratic nations have long given up the ridiculous linking of the Church and the State."

Sorry... are you seriously saying the US does NOT do this? That's ridiculous. Is any of this actually serious?

Our Freedom means we have to accept Jesus? Is that what your saying? Lookie here:

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Yeah., I really have no idea what he was saying there. He may as well have said that all other naitons long ago started using cars where the US hasn't, it would make as much sense.

Doesnt every nation go about babbling how god is on their side and thats why they're gonna win?
Middle East - yup
Israel - yup
America - yup
china - yup (hence their name in chinese 'middle kingdom')

I dont see why we can single out america.. because its made more public than others?

Does China even have a god? They're communists right? Don't they supress religion?

Oooo...nice find! As for the term 'Xian'. Let me explain...'Xmas' = 'Christmas, so 'Xian' = 'Christian'...I'm a smart cookie. However, as for a 'bash fest' you are mistaken...If you can't handle a debate, then leave it alone.

The muslims ought to be told to stop leveling whole countries - wait...

That's a very interesting opinion, but it would help if you read the initial post before you commented on it.

No.
Yes.
Yes.

Don't worry about SaTsuJiN...he just needs people to speak s-l-o-w-l-y, so he can understand.

maybe not so smart after all cause Xian is a city in China that was the capital city of the Qin dynasty. So since thats an actuall place thats what I forst thought off, reading your stuff it is pretty obvious that it is chrisitains you aim at. But xian for christians is more misleading than it is a clue

If it was 'pretty obvious' to you, then it should be 'pretty obvious' to other people too...The numerous references I made to Jesus, god and the church should help eliminate any misunderstanding...

Being pedantic about other people, is rather amusing when you, yourself, spell like a 10 year old. I highlighted the mistakes I'm referring to for you! You're welcome!

Unfortunately, debates hardly include bickering over petty spelling issues... however I can see where you're coming from with regards to these religious propagandas, but cannot see why you single out one group of people... as these kinds of 'mind control' I suppose, have been going on perhaps since war was created.
and when I tossed china in the mix I was referring to "Mother China" as their god (Nationalism anyone?).. thats fairly pseudo religious in my opinion since it requires zealous worship of various propaganda.

since english aint my first language I will allow my self some spelling mistakes and dont care about it.
Now xian as a short for christians is lame though, maybe good in your head but to the rest pretty lame

I think most people outside the US see it as a craving for oil more than a christian crusade

Ok that is alittle long to read but I read it anyway .But yet I am still confuse.What are you complaining about?JM

I did read it. It was babbling innane gibberish. The US is the western nation with by far the greatest separation of church and state. Write something with any intelligence behind it and I will give it more credit.

Bush constantly babbling about God does not mean that seperation of church and state is going away. You don't see people being made to pray in public schools, do you? You don't see the government saying that "Everyone MUST be Christian", do you?

I like this!

Apologises in regards to the spelling...but I find it pretty lame that someone who understands the meaning of a word or phrase goes on to babble like this:



I also agree that oil is a major factor in the US' foreign policy, but I stated that the ideology behind the campaign was filled with Xian rhetoric. This much is plainly obvious if you've ever listened to/read one of his speeches...

You have not understanding of anywhere beyond your own door-step if you believe the highlighted sentence to be true.

And as for WindDancer...



...sychophancy is not a desirable trait in any man, woman or fish.

This is a very simple way of looking at things...sometimes governments are more cryptic in their influence. You only need to recognise the increasing censorship of non-Xian values on American TV as one example of the Bush's determination to promote his beliefs across the nation and, by default, the world.

this is correct, if this wasnt to be so please enlighten us to which denomination that is clinched to the state then

thats easy cause when I saw the headline of xian fundamentalist I thought, now what is this about? Some Chinese fundamentalists that are hung up on the Qin dynasty? It wasnt before I read your entire article that I figured out the xian referring to christians. So the headline is in this case very misleading. So the babble in this thread is your so called article here nothing else.
What you obvious dont handle is feedback that might question or criticise your stuff. So in that case I just have to quote yourself there

THAT, however, does NOT violate seperation of church and state. Nor is it something that I have noticed. And, before you say it, I am not a 'brainwashed American Christian'.

no she is just simply brainwashed, so there so

Shaddup Finti

Nah, we all know he just doesnt think. Period. I am scared and confused as to how such a man can stay in power - my explanation is - he doesnt run the country - other power hungry, oil grabbing puppet masters do.
Thinking its all Bush is giving him WAY too much credit.

........


Ou Be Low hoo, as much as I try to see your point, i dont agree with you.

The relationship between state and the religion in middle east and Africa is WAY too different to that in America. Im not saying America does not have weird....Christian...extremist organisation...psycho weirdos from hell - it does, but the state-religion thing, although still very much involved in America is different - and for one, we dont have a priest (or whatever the higest title is below pope is??) running America (although you might as well have, seeing how 'great' bush is)

K, this is basically how it is...in a nut shell -

Islaminism in power -

1. Iran - Ayatollah Khomeini overthrew Shah in 1979
2. Sudan - Rules since 1989 by Hassan al-Turabi National Salvation Front
3. Afghanistan - The Taliban consolidated their grip in 1996

^^ those countries are rules by religion - and im not saying we should go to war with them - oh HELL NO, im just giving an example.

however,

There are those in which Islaminism is in opposition -

1. Egypt - The Muslim Brotherhood, with the Jamaat-a-Islam of Pakistan was the fountainhead of 'political islam'
2. Saudi Arabia : An Islamic monarchy which withstood an atempt by fanatics to overthrow it
3. Turkey : Western style democracy has stripped its non-violent islamists of the power won by democratic means
4. Iraq and Syria : Totaletarian regimes have crushed Ismalist uprisings savagely
5. Palestine : Hamas militants marry religious with patriotic zeal
6. Pakistan : 'Moderate' Islamisit have enjoyed the longer access to constitutional politics than those of any other muslim country.
7. Checnya : A bitter struggle of Independence from Moscow has provided a haven for Islamic extremists.
8. Nigeria and Malaysia : Two of the 'peripheral' countries of the Muslim world where Islaminism is a growing force.

Source : Giddens. A, Sociology, pg.561, 2001, Polity

The point im trying to make is that - no actually, Christians fundamentalism is not any more dangerous than that of islam - and as described above, even muslim countries are having a problem with the extremists

You continue to 'babble' about the title - rather than discuss the actual thread - so me thinks it is you, not I, that can nae handle doth discussion. As you correctly observed...There is no confusion in reagrds to the topic of the thread after reading the actual post...So I quite simply fail to grasp the grape of your contention...Perhaps it is that you have nothing to contribute to the thread in regards to the topic of discussion and so you seem to have decided to wallow away your hours on a rather ingenious abreviation of mine...cryptic nature of the Xian influence, by definition, means that not everyone will recognise it. You seem to be one of them.





I'm not arguing that the influence of the Xian-right is in violation of the religion-state divide, but rather that it is present and extremely influential. This does not occur to the same extent in other developed nations such as Canada, Austrailia and most of Europe.

With the US as the only current superpower, their influence on the world is enormous. If this influence is directed, in part, by the Xian beliefs of those in control then the religious oppression of other faiths is equally enormous.

Or you're just reading too much into nothing. And if you don't like this so-called Christian censorship on TV, change the bloody channel or turn it off. Wow. What a concept.

Actually China will soon become a world superpower. I shudder at the thought.

Ahh...ignorance. Is it bliss?

I wouldn't know.

Classic!

"I wouldn't know what ignorance is like."

Oh, the irony!

Oh ha ha.

The fact that I like to keep informed about things makes me ignorant about ignorance.

Tell me, did you come up with that yourself? Because I've never heard it used before.

Sometimes you need to learn to shut up. You're sitting here taking down people who disagree with you...well guess what. Not everyone in the world has to agree with you. Thinking that what you post is non-sensical bullshit does NOT make one ignorant, it means that we have a different opinion. So Bush makes a lot of Christian references. So ****ing what. It does NOT make the US a fundamentalist state, not by far. If he tore down seperation of church and state, declared that everyone MUST be Christian, and set up a dictatorship, then it'd be different. But it isn't the case, and isn't even remotely CLOSE to the case. Seperation of church and state says that no official religion can be established, religion is not allowed in public schools or the government, and that the government cannot give money to religious organizations. It does NOT say that the president can't talk about God and Jesus and whatnot. That is allowed under our First Amendment, which protects freedom of speech, expression, the press, and religion. And since what he says does NOT restrict the rights of any other citizens, there is nothing wrong with it. You can disagree with it, sure. I am no fan of Bush, and in fact strongly dislike him, his policies, and more or less everything he's done while in office. But while I may disagree with what someone says, I will defend to the death their right to say it. I don't necessarily like what Bush says (being as I'm not a Christian), but he has the right to say what he wants.

Where to start...where to start...?

The only people I am 'taking down' are you and finiti. finiti can't get over a simple abbreviation that he/she understands(!?!?!) and you simply don't comprehend what I'm saying.

I'll quote myself seeing as I'm so insightful:



If you wish to participate in this discussion - and of course you are perfectly welcome to - please try to understand it.

Oh and "yes"...that little ignorance thing was all me.

No, I do understand clearly what you're saying. And it is, like Ush said, inane gibberish.

And arrogance is not becoming.

...and is typing out the extra 5 letters to say "Christian" instead of "Xian" really THAT hard?

Way to toot your own horn.

A) Xian does NOT mean Christianity, Not at all, never had, never will. Go ahead Google it, Go to dictionary.com or whatever and look it up. It does not mean Christianity. Your completly wrong there. \

B) "Please try to understand it" HYPOCRITE!, Understand your own post before trying to talk about it.

C) With the US as the only current superpower, their influence on the world is enormous. If this influence is directed, in part, by the Xian beliefs of those in control then the religious oppression of other faiths is equally enormous.

US is NOT the only superpower, probably the biggest but not the only one, China is another superpower, and may even be bigger than the US someday soon....

D) The beliefs of the president do not nessesarily mean that the whole country feels the same way,
Sure I'l Bet Bush believes that God is on his side, But so do the Iraqi's, Who is correct??

What did you write, I read it, but it was stupid, you basicly said nothing but "Bush beleives in Jesus..." Over and over and over....

Now you're saying that you understand 'inane gibberish'!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

Oh, it's too good to be true!

Now who's talking about ignorance? I shall break it down for you.

Inane gibberish = COMPLETE BULLSHIT.

ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ...all 'no'.

'Xian' is my term, I've explained it...it makes sense...move on.

China is not yet a 'superpower', but is fast becoming one.

Thanks for coming out, don't forget your coat when you leave.

No it doesn't its retarted....
"xian" Is retarted.
Its stupid and pointless and misleading.

I was just pointing out the fact that you were the only one finding the xian as so bloody clever, you obvious couldnt handle that people in here thought otherwise. Hence your "attacks" on those who questioned it.


contribute to the thread, a thread that started of with utterly BS?.
Dont know how old you are, but right before and after every election in the US conservative christians rattle their chains, this time the Prez himself is a conservative christian and he has brought personal ways into the presidency and campaign. The fact is that Bush was dependent on these conservative christians to be eleceted. And taken the fact that the US is at war too really boosts the ways of these conservative christians. Now this stuff will cool down and US will be back to "normal" within the time for summer. If you have observed several elections in the US you would have seen this thing to happen every time, it heat up before the election and last to about 5-6 months after the presidential inauguration.

well here in Europe almost every nation thinks they do it for oil, and thats what all the protests against the war has been all about too.

oh really. Which ones?? Since most European countries have not I wonder which are these so called other democratic countries you refer too.

No I dont think thats the case, and half of NATO is supporting the war which again is half of Europe

the majority? majority of two countries?, Iraq is poor because the despot his kins and the rest who were in charge took all the money thats why that country is poor, as for Afghanistan yeah they are poor.
Afghanistan under the Taliban regime harbored and protected terrorist cells long before they were attacked.

well that is your opinion which you are entitled to so know we know your stand.

What the bloody hell are you talking about? they have been a economic and militaristic super power for years! not only do they have the biggest standing army in the world but they are also the only country that would be able to win a war with the United States. Look at the statistics, the U.S department of defense has admitted that the U.S pacific fleet, the "largest and most powerful" will not be able to defeat the Chinese navy in one year. beyond that, china has a standing army of over 2 million (including support personnel) and they have the largest population on the face of this planet so if they wanted, they could easily pull off the "Russian Bulldozer" tactic of just hurling thousands of men at an enemy until they are overrun.

You took my last comment as flattery towards Finti and Ushgarak? Well, I don't see why even bothering with acknowledgin my simple reply to two previous posts. Seens it bother you or something.

Anyways, let's make this a clear topic without any hidden meaning or alphabetical abbreviations or any other bullcrap. Lets talk without any useless sarcasm or pointless witty remarks.

What you're basically saying (correct me if I'm wrong without sarcasm) is that the real terror comes from the USA because we (notice that includes me) are Fudamental Christians that have taken the role of Crusaders and we're invading the Eastern world because we want to convert muslims into christianity and we want to steal their treasures (oil, land, and whatever else). Is that correct? Or am I reading you wrong. Please specify.

Now for the latter part of the argument. You said Xian stands for Christian religion and you're saying that Xian Fundamentalism is far more dangerous than Muslim Fundamentalism. Because the christians (in this case the Americans) have the bigger weapons and a larger army. Whereas the Muslim Fundamentalist extremist (in this case the Taliban and Al Qeda) only have their guerilla tactics and machine guns. Is that right? Am I understanding you or am I complete lost in your argument.

Let's just clarify some things in this thread. Okay?

Boring, boring, boring...It feels like I am 'speaking' to a 5 year old! I don't really care what you think about the abbreviation, but it's meaning is clear. I've explained it before and I won't be doing it again. I don't mean this is a derogartory way, but perhaps you are suffering from a mild form of Autism. Ask your doctor for help...



You seem pretty engrossed in this thread, but it's just a shame you have only just started to contribute to it!



I'm 25. The Xian fervor is indeed always present, however it is in the time of Bush that it's affect is so wide-reaching. You correctly stated that he was dependent on the Xian vote to get elected, therefore it is a truism that the influence of the Xian right is immense. However, you seem laughably naive in yourassumption that 'this stuff will cool down and US will be back to 'normal' within the time for summer'(sic). What will have changed by that time?!?! Bush will still be president, it is unlikely US foreign policy will have changed, Iraq will still be under the greater control of the US, Muslim nations will still feel bullied by American imperialism, civil liberties will continue to be taken for granted and censorchip and control will continue to increase. The Xian right will not be neglected after their power in getting Bush elected.



Oil is a prime factor. I'm not saying the US is trying to convert the world to Xianity, rather that the power of the Xian-right is overwhelming. History is filled with accounts of the cultural raping that Xian missions caused.



England, France, Spain, Germany, Holland, Belgium...etc, etc, etc...On a fundamental level of influence, most European countries do not mix politics with religion. Just recently Italy's commissioner, Rocco Buttiglione, was rejected as a nominee for the EU Justice Commission based on his extreme Xian beliefs. If you have any more questions about this, ask google, not me.



My statement was 'half the world is being alienated'. You've just stated that half of NATO is supporting the war, so by default the other half is alienated from it. Same goes for Europe. Same goes for the world. You studied math, right?



Do you see war as purely a physical manifestation? I don't.

You seem to think of power on only militaristic terms. This is fair enough if it is your own classification, but most nations judge status on economic factors, socio-economic growth, public infrastructure and sustainability. China has yet to reach the level of the US on any of those terms. Martin Vander Weyer of The Spectator notes:

Re. China:



Many observers, of greater knowledge than both you and I, argue that without political reform China will not reach 'superpower' status.

I already explained this before. I'm not saying the US is trying to convert the world to Xianity, rather the leaders of the US are elected by Xians and use Xian rhetoric for all their actions. This promotes a culture of hostility around the world by the intrinsic arrogance of such assertions.



There was a farmer who had a dog and 'BINGO' was it's name.

just want to contribute to a level you can comprehend. and again since you obvious cant handle the criticism to your moron new contribution of how to label christians...xians what a laugh.. Hope you didnt spend hours coming up with this lame word for christians, cause it aint nothing but lame.

countries where there is strong ties between church and state

it happens every time around elections in the US, naive nah it just how it is. That you are incapable of observing this factor says all about your lack of understanding of the entire situation. Maybe if you spent more time looking into things instead of nursing your ego you might have observed this

the other half of Nato chose them self to be outside this conflict only one Nato country openly criticized it, and just because some countries dont contribute to the conflict doesnt mean they are against it.

extreme beliefs are a no no regardless how they are portrayed, if you dont understand that dont bring it up

war is a physical manifesto, if not at war or openly in conflict there aint no war. Just because some have a different religious set up and an ignorant view of the world cause they dont know any better dont qualify them to be under attack, cause under attack was the argument you used. So what majority of muslims nations under attack are we talking about? Who asked something about studying math?

Your crusade toward christianity based upon loose accusation of a tunnel visioned view on stuff is actuall the boring part here, you havent come up with anything but regurgitation of BS

My dear, dear finti...you seem to be oblivious to the fact that it is you who has become so anally wrapped up in a simple word, not I! When I used the term, I didn't think it would even pass comment, as it's meaning is totally clear! Any ego, on my part, in regards to the word is purely sarcastic...I really don't give a shit about whether you think it's 'lame' or not...What makes me laugh is that you seem to be showing signs of Autistic behaviour as a result of a simple abbreviation! Get some help, dude!



You are simply wrong. This is my opinion supported by fact. Go google it...seeing as you have no actual understanding of it.



You are not stating anything new! This is simply a rehash of what I have already responded to.



IN EUROPE extreme beliefs are generally a 'no-no', but in the US they appear to be a 'yes-yes'...Look at Bush's stance on gay marriage for example. So it seems, dear finti, that yet again it is you who is wallowing in the pool of ignorance. How is it in there?



This ^ is all rather erratic, but 'attack' is also not a mere physical manifestation of animosity. I don't wish to be your dictionary, but it seems that I have to be...try this link for help in the future:

http://dictionary.reference.com



Then leave. Your lack of comprehension is also rather dull.

This is true to some extent, but many countries such as France and Germany were openly against it. Try to consider THE WORLD instead of simply EUROPE. Apart from Austrailia and the UK, there weren't many supporters of the US-led coallition.

^ This got mixed up in all the quotes...

as long as it needs to be explained it aint clear, you are the only one who think it is clear mainly because you came up with it.
good, then we got that cleared out that it is lame

the facts are?

i dont know, why dont you tell me since you seem to spend all your time in there

come to scandinavia and we show you how extreme beliefs are a yes yes


Without these so called christians fundamentalist (which you laughably refer to as xian and the only one who finds its meaning obvious) the world would be in a bit of problem, so what we refer to as the free world have very much to be grateful for to these christians fundamentalists .
Today the countries that really gain from these so called chrtisitans fundamentalists and we doont pay too much attention too are Taiwan and South Korea. So without these fundamental christians to back them up they would be in big shit, then again South Korea is the only one worth protecting down there since Taiwan just as well can be reunited with China. Thats the "sacrifice" the western world have to accept to keep the peace with the next world power to be China.

France aint a military Nato member

Spain, Italy, Poland and both the Scandinavian Nato members have contributed military and economically.

Need I remind you that words should be understood in the context they are used in? If I don't, then the 'Xian' term needs no further explanation. However, I feel I should remind you of your initial post to this discussion:



Please note that it had nothing to do with the discussion, but rather an anal observation of 'comprehension'.

This is the only new observation you have posted:



Your view is formed from American-indoctrined ideology . Without the US, it is obvious a new 'world-police' would come into power. However, it is futile to consider such a thing as it is an impossibility. However, do you think the UN, the EU and ASEAN are solely reliant on the US!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?



I live in Taiwan, so my view is based on actual experience. Recently the US has distanced itself further and further from protecting Taiwan and has shown signs of being increasingly sympathetic with China. I trust you are aware that China is a communist state, but this is of little concern to the US as the mighty $ suffocates any of the delusions of Bush's inaugural speech on world-wide liberty.

Do you have anything else to bring to the discussion or are you going to revert to your robot-controlled tape-recorder stuck on play-rewind-play-rewind-play-rewind, ad infinitum?

This is pertinent to the discussion and appeared in The Guardian only a few days ago:

No monopoly on modernity
American dominance is bound to wither as Asia's confidence grows
Martin Jacques
Saturday February 05 2005
The Guardian


In President Bush's inauguration speech, he pledged to support "the expansion of freedom in all the world", deploying the words free or freedom no less than 25 times in 20 short minutes. The neoconservative strategy is quite explicit: to bend the world to America's will; to reshape it according to the interests of a born-again superpower. There is something more than a little chilling about
this. Even though the Iraqi occupation has gone seriously awry, the United States still does not recognise the constraints on its own power and ambition.

This was something that Europe learned the hard way: two world wars, the rise of the United States and the Soviet Union, and the anti-colonial struggle have taught our continent the limitations of its own power. That is why Europe today, with the partial exception of Britain and France, and exemplified by Germany, is so reluctant to use military force. The United States, of course, is the opposite. It measures its power not by its relative economic and technological prowess, which would suggest restraint, but its military unassailability, which implies the opposite.

Nor is this attitude simply a product of the neoconservatives. It also draws on something deeper within the American psyche. The birth of the United States and its expansion across the American continent - the frontier mentality - was an imperial enterprise, involving, most importantly, the subjugation and destruction of the Amerindians. This is lodged in the national genes, it is part of the American story, and it helps to inform and shape its global strategy and aspirations.

It is not difficult, of course, for the United States to throw its weight around in the Middle East, a poor and defeated region, one of the big-time losers from globalisation. The world's superpower versus a failed region is a hopelessly unequal contest, especially when the former can rely on the support of its regional policeman Israel, to do its bidding. But this is not the dominant story of our time, even though the Bush regime, in its desire to exploit the country's status as sole superpower, has chosen to define this conflict as the central narrative. History will judge differently. The rise of China and India will have a far more profound effect on the world than a small band of Islamist terrorists.

Indeed, there is something faintly bizarre about the psychotic worship of
American values, the incantation of its applicability to each and every country, at a historical moment when, for the first time since its emergence half a millennium ago, the modern world will, in the not too distant future, no longer be monopolised by the west. It is not difficult to imagine that, by the middle of this century, both China and India will rank among the top five largest economies in the world, with China perhaps the biggest. Nor is this just an economic story, which is how it is generally told. With economic strength comes, in due course, political, cultural and military influence: such has been the case with the emergence of all great powers.

The fact and significance of this, of course, has been hugely underestimated. The dominant view of globalisation is that it is overwhelmingly a process of westernisation: indeed, the neoliberal form of globalisation espoused by the Washington consensus has deliberately sought to define it as such. The prevalent western view is well-articulated by Chris Patten in his book East and West, where the differences between western and east Asian countries, like China, are
explained simply in terms of historical timing. The closer they get to western levels of development, the more they will come to resemble the west. Or, to put it another way, there is a singular modernity, and that is western.

Given that modernity is not simply a snapshot of the present, but a product of history, not only a function of markets and technology, but the creation of a culture, then this is utterly mistaken. One cannot make sense of American modernity - and how it diverges from European modernity - without understanding its history, in particular that it was a settler society, without any prior experience of feudalism.

If Europe and the United States differ because of their diverse pasts, even though they palpably share a great deal in terms of history, culture and race, then how much more true it will be of countries like China and India, whose civilisational roots - from religion and ethnicity to history and geo-location - are completely different to those of the west. The main historical form of intimacy with the west, in the case of India, was colonialism, which for China was only a marginal experience.

China and India, of course, will take on board a great deal from the west in their modernisation. But that can only be part of the picture. They will also draw from their own history and culture. The outcome in each case will be a complex hybrid, its character varying from country to country. In future, international discourse - the word "international" is now invariably shorthand for the west - will no longer be overwhelmingly western. As these societies grow in economic strength and cultural self-confidence, so the global political and intellectual language will change. That language, involving concepts like democracy, civil society, freedom, a free press and an independent judiciary, is
now almost exclusively western. But it will not always be the case.

So which Chinese and Indian concepts might make the transition from national to global discourse and debate? In time, one would guess many, some positive, some regressive - just as has been the case with western values. But, for two reasons, it is still very difficult to predict what they might be. Firstly, because China is ruled by a communist party, the debate about it has been overwhelmingly conducted in terms of politics rather than culture: a profoundly rich and complex culture has been reduced to the colour of its government. Secondly, the relative backwardness of these societies has hitherto deprived
them of self-confidence in the face of western hegemony. Their indigenous traditions and ideas tend to be viewed, even from within, as symptoms of backwardness and therefore as essentially parochial rather than cosmopolitan.
That will change as these societies become increasingly self-confident. As a result, the west will be forced to engage with these societies and their cultures in a very different kind of way. There will be global competition between the different claims for universality. The cultural traffic will no longer be one-way.

The pastoral concept of the Chinese state, for example, its obligation to take care of the people, that dates back to the responsibilities of the emperor, and is also related to the concept of the extended family, is likely to become an increasingly familiar idea. There is the Chinese concept of min jian, not easily translatable - either linguistically or culturally - but which might be described in shorthand as the expression of Chinese tradition, from superstition to folklore, in everyday life, which remains a potent force in all Chinese societies to this day. More obviously, the very different notions of the family
in Indian and Chinese culture are likely to become globally familiar; indeed, in a limited way, they already are.

The contrast between China and the United States could hardly be more striking. The former dates back thousands of years, the latter not much more than 200; the former is a product of an ancient civilisation, the latter an invented nation whose citizens bear allegiance to a political document, the constitution. It is little wonder that Americans constantly need to reinvent themselves: the Chinese, unsurprisingly, have no such problem, they know exactly who they are. The profound cultural differences are already being played out in a cinema nearyou: Hollywood versus the new breed of popular Chinese films. This is just a
taster for the future, the beginning of what will later come to dominate the 21st century. American - and western values - will find themselves contested like never before.

point is one had to read it to understand what xian ment, it wasnt obvious all by itself

they become more and more independent still they are dependant on the US though, UN is just a farce that is more of a bureaucratic plague than it is any good

so called communist state, but no state have ever been and never will be a true communist state and the Taiwan issue is gonna be a dilemma

That is more like an assumption rather than an observation you got there Ou Be Low hoo. Saying that the Xians (Christians) elected Xian leaders (Christian President) is the declaring that everyone that voted for Bush are Christians. That's not all true. Sure there is a majority that have Christian values but that doesn't mean that everyone who voted for President Bush are Christians.

Now as far as having bigger weapons is not only directed to the US. Every super power has weapons. We have Russia, England, China, etc... all of them have the bigger weapon. If we were to accept that America is a Xian nation of Fundamentalist that would make China a Nation of Communist Fundamentalist. And that is not the case. China has allowed Capitalism to enter into their politics and no way they can be Communist fundamentalist.

If we were to have Christian Fundamentalist in America governing us. We would have laws imposing us to go to church every sunday and pray at schools every day. That's not the case. Going to church or praying in schools is optional. No one is forcing me or any other American to go to church on sundays. If I want to go I'll go and If I don't want to go I won't go. If we were to have Christian Fundamentalism in America it would be manditory to all citizens to attent church on sundays. And to be very honest......we don't such a law here.



Here is something I want to know. Why is Taiwan depending on the US to watch over them? What is this fear that America is sympathetic to China? Is Taiwan so defenseless that they need help in order to keep China from taking over?

darn those islamic terrorists for giving charities to all over the world and feeding the hungry of the world, and darn those chrisian's for beheading people on video tape while chanting to there god..........wait a minute did i miss something here?????????????

yeah, ok. all muslems are evil, all christians are good. (note sarcasm)

muslems are evil and I dont care about christians

and you are just sad for being so prejudice and hateful

80% of Muslims are Unrepentant Baby Killer. Acts in Accordance with genocidal commandments of koran as written by Mohammed.

and 100% of the figures you put forth is total BS.

Come on most of them dont even use tolite paper

Where do you get this info Napalm? Or do you just create facts because it is so much easier on your brain than to actually research anything?

Make war on them until idolatry shall cease and God's religion shall reign supreme." (Surah 8:36-)

"Slay them wherever you find them...Idolatry is worse than carnage...Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God's religion reigns supreme." (Surah 2:190-)

Prophet make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home." (Surah 9:73)

but christ says to pray for your enemies and those that live by the sword die by the sword

whos leader promotes killing and genocide i ask you??? there are good muslims and there are bad christians but wich one is acting in accordance to their leader?

...

he/she is correct those are verses from da koran

napalm was right about the "acts in accordance"
islamic people are justified in their religeon to kill you.

The koran is basically "Terrorism for dummies"

a word of truth in a sentence of bullshit...




...is bullshit

is that all you have to say is BS or do you have any retorts that involve facts or insight??

If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant, And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; ... Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.
-- Deuteronomy, Chapter 17:2-3,5


was that more to your liking?

That was from the Old Testement the New testment is much different

thats old testement bro, christians follow directions from jesus that says it was said eye for an eye but i tell you turn the other cheeck.
Also a great line from jesus that would fit that scripture quite well would be those that have not sinned cast the first stone. If you belive in jesus and follow his teachings then you are not directed to do that

so christians dont follow the old testament?
well someone better inform the pope...and all other christian clergy.

Yeah the pope stones people all the time

christian means you follow the teachings of christ. christ teachings do not go alongside genocide and murder. The teachings from the Koran do endorse killing.
figure it out man

you miss the point COMPLETELY
i quoted the words are in the bible, which is followed by christians...unless you arre part of some far out sect where they dont?
this doesnt mean its practiced now...but during the crusades it WAS practiced and countless muslems were murdered in the name of jesus.

Christians in the crusades killed hundreds of thousands of Jews and Muslims (not to mention other christians). Then there was the Spanish inquisition, then there was the Jesuits in North America, then there was the catholic church killing folks for a coupleof hundred years, heck we even have christian fundamentalists blowing things up in North America.
Almost forgot the KKK who loved to lynch in the name of the lord almighty.

If you are going to condemn the muslims because of what's written in their religious texts. Perhaps you should condem christians even more for never abiding by theirs.

And napalm, after the death threats and hate that you have spewed on many of your posts, I suggest that you refrain from any comments commenting on the violent or acceptable behaviour of any religion or person. It's a wee bit hypocritical.

yea did you hear about all those terrorists coming from the catholic church that behead their victims while reciting the beatitudes????

when did jesus command his followers to commit murder? name one instance

OK, fight the truth with sarcasm and misdirection, that's very Ann Coulter of you.

I did not hear of the," terrorists coming from the catholic church that behead their victims while reciting the beatitudes", but I did hear of a president who believed he was on a mission of god and justified the killing of Thousands of iraqis.

"If you are going to condemn the muslims because of what's written in their religious texts. Perhaps you should condem christians even more for never abiding by theirs."

actually that is a very good point man and i agree with you it is wrong to do terrible things in the name of jesus i agree with you a 100 percent man

O.K. if you're gonna be a bible thumper than Jesus used to preach that you should love thy brother, so stop your bitching and start the lovin'.

jesus NEVER commanded it. THATS THE F**KING POINT
it was done in his name anyway, due to some archian line in the bible, which was used to justify murder. the line is still there and was never removed. its part of the old testament and thus the word of god. you cant just select which part is wrong and which is right, or you are commiting blashphemy. sucks dont it?

So are Christians supposed to ignore what's in the Old testament?

common sense: ignore the violence and persecution of non-believers?...YES

according to the law of god: you can ignore the old testament...and you can also burn in the lake of fire...so NO

"O.K. if you're gonna be a bible thumper than Jesus used to preach that you should love thy brother, so stop your bitching and start the lovin'."

naw man there is no animosity here. I am just clarifying for you. you seem to think the faith of jesus equates to hatred and killing i am clarifying that jesus stands for forgivness and loving your enemy. He even prayed for the people that had him killed before he died asking god to forgive them.

you all seemed pretty harsh on napalm as if he was making up the fact islam commands its followers to kill. he was right, just clarifying. you want more lines from the Koran???

Then perhaps you should also quote the verses from the Koran about love and peace. It isn't as one sided some would choose to believe.

you can quit trying to sell jesus, since i was already sold.
but cant you see how scripture can allow those corrupt powers to manipulate
religion? just the way in which muslems and jews were murdered in the name of christ. just as americans and allies are murdered in the name of god today.


you try to tell everyone that muslems are evil, based on their scripture. if only you would see the truth on the other side of the coin.

jesus says don't kill kill kill
koran says kill kill kill
is this making sense?

oh pvs i agree with you, people can manipulate any religeon they choose too.

touchy? oh how offended we get when someone attempts to discredit a religion based on its own scripture...be it followed or not. hypocrite

who said i thought muslims are evil?? i am saying if a muslim decided to cut your head off PVS his belief system says its ok to do so. But many muslims don't go for that even though they are directed to by their religeon, cause despite the direction to kill people by their koran they choose to be loving to other people

if you can see the truth in this, then why cant you see the big picture?
there is no 'evil' religion, only evil followers. napalm said that muslems are
murderers and evil ect. thats is the reason for the harsh debate here.

...when you jump in a debate to defend someone's point of view, you do just that. napalm...oh just read his posts dude.

need i say more?

(sorry for the triple post )

ok here is the difference

someone kills in the name of islam
they are correct in killing a unbeliver according to the teachings of islam.

someone kills in the name of jesus
they are not going alongside the teachings of christ

you can kill in the name of anything, my point is one is actually taught to do it by their leader and one is not.
do you agree with that ????

(sorry for the triple post )

no prob dude

first off, jesus is the son of god...well he IS god...but lets not get on that confusing old bit.

the old testament is GODS WORD. nothing in it can be taken for granted.

the reason i state this is to prove the point that i CAN kill in the name of god, which according to the trinity...would be in the name of jesus as well.

Good point PVS

ok but jesus taught people not to kill, so in fact GOD taught people it was time to quit the bloodshed. I look at it as a path. god asked his people to act a certain way in different parts of the path. We are past the begginning part of the trail and god now asks us to walk a different way, wich would include jesus saying don't cast stones and don't live by the sword and without love you are nothing and many more examples. Now if you are christian you belive it is good to follow his teachings. point blank. Its sad that people twist it and kill in his name i know. BUT IF YOU FOLLOW CHRISTS WORDS you are not going to string up a black man like some members of the kkk did wich is just upsetting and sick soemone would do that in chrsits name.

So you are supposed to follow some of the bible and not all of the bible? Where do we stand on the 10 commandments?

wether you agree with jesus or not, he does not condone hatefull genocide, if you listen to his words the most he got upset at people was to the teachers of the law that were so condemning to everyone

jesus said the frst two commandments were the most important and if you follow those two the rest comes into place
love god and love your nieghbor
you know treat people how you want to be treated

So we follow God as Jesus, and ignore everything God said as God?

I'm really confused here.

i am not trying to show you guys up or anything i am just trying to convey the message that jesus does not like hate and blood and killing. Jesus was a very loving man. And if you follow the mans teachings you are not going to do hatefull sick things

its a progression from the old to the new. we are now on the new, christians are not called to act in accordance to the old but now the new

believe me, i am not trying to take credit away from christianity or you,
only to give credit to people of islam. a group of people practicing their faith
cannot be discredited due to some contradiction in scripture, and evil a$$holes making others suffer in the name of god. to label all muslems as 'evil' based on almost universally ignored violent teachings, would be the same as labeling all christians as 'murderers' because of the crusades...and kkk lynchings as you point out.

just as good christians choose to ignore the violent teachings in the bible, so do many good muslems ignore the violence in the koran.

So we should ignore the old?

when you think about it, to be a good christian means to practice a bit of blasphemy according to the Old Testament. by tolerating nonbelievers, you are kinda going against the word of god.

who the hell knows?

"just as good christians choose to ignore the violent teachings in the bible, so do many good muslems ignore the violence in the koran."

i know what your saying, but i am not aware of any versus in the koran that say later that it is not right to kill. So they have the oppurtunity in their beliefs to justify murder. If you can find any lines later in the koran that says it was once said to cut unbelivers by the neck but now i tell you to love your enemy please let me know but i don't think its there.
I do not disagree either there are people in islam that are good loving people. I talked to one last week and we talked about both of our religeons and we were very respectfull towards eachother and ended the chat by saying we would pray for eachother. He was a good man.
But i am not going to blind myself and say that the koran does not condone murder and genocide. I can't lie to myself i have read the lines in there and it is quite clear. Though in 4 gospels christ makes himself quite clear about how he wants his followers to treat others and it is not with murder and hate

When you read the entire Koran, get back to me. A follower of islam could easily quote passages from the bible and make you look like a hate filled individual. So if you are not truly going to be blind, then fully educate yourself.

my experience is that the christians follow what they seem fit, they change their interpretation of the bible all the time to justify what they do.

well honestly... i dont know how to answer this. jesus says one thing, god says another.

i cant even figure out christianity, which i was raised on. anyone who would claim they have a full understanding from the beginning of the old testament to the end of the new testament is either lying or insane.

actually i agree with you. I have read through parts of the koran but i admit i have not read the whole thing. I think i should and i think you are right. I have actually been meaning to but i have had college class and i have been trying to hit the gym more. But your right. I am going to make time to read the whole thing. And i will tell you what as well it will probably take awile but after i am done i will get back to you and honestly state wether i think the koran is clear or not if you should give mercy to unbelievers and not kill them.

Taiwan happens to be a rather small island. China happens to be the most populous nation on Earth. You do the math.

America preaches that it will help defend the democracy of any nation that wants it. Taiwan wants it, but the pressure from China is immense. China has hundreds of missles located about 100 miles away, aimed at Taiwan ready for the moment Taiwan makes direct moves to make it's independence 'official'.

As the economic power of China grows so to does the threat posed to Taiwan. However, as this threat grows American protection declines...It's not hard to figure out the reasons behind this.

Anyway, back to the topic...

finti...I understand that English isn't your first language, so I give you credit for your degree of fluency in it. However, you really need to try to comprehend what I have been typing a little more. Here is a little break-down for you:

You originally posted this:



Then, I posted this:



Then, you posted this AGAIN:



I am a native speaker, so my comprehension is pretty comprehensive! Your posts are contradictory, dull, repetitive and lack sense!

You are most welcome in this debate, but please try to be a little more coherent.

This is a noble cause, but you are blighted by the condition of your Xianity. Your faith in your religion will suppress the light that comes from others.

In my experience, Xians are the most hypocritical people in the world. It's a broad, broad generality, but I believe it to be true. I do have Xian friends and one of them happens to be the son of the guy who 'wrote' the Millenium Prayer that bloody Cliff Richards sang a few Xmas' ago! He's nothing like your average Xian, but all the others I have met are judgemental to the point of Crucifixion!

if you had cared to read the entire thing The last quote talked about the headline of the subject, but since you dont understand it maybe I have to break it down to you!

The subject of the topic when looking at it together with all the ohter topics in the GDF the word xian in the headline does not make any sence at all.

One have to read your first post to figure out what you meant by xian.

DO YOU SEE THE DIFFERENCE.

So you are saying that it is bad that you have to read a thread to understand what it is about!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!??!

I think your sole purpose in this thread is to be ridiculous. Congratulations, you have achieved your goal!

no what I said was that the word xian wasnt all that clear by itself, when I first encountered it I thought "now whats this about ancient chinese dynasty fundamentalists about"

couldnt let you take all that honor by yourself

At the first tilt of the rainbow, I thought you were being serious throughout this whole thread...Now, after withdrawing the shaded spectacles from my eye-bridge, I can notice the quantum irony of all your posts and your far-reaching intentions.

To this, I doth my hat and salute you.

I have already posted this once, but I feel I have to say it again.

Although I do find some of your posts both entertaining or insightful, I have to admit that the use of your word Xian for Christian is annoying. It is not a real word (except when used in context of the city of Xian) nor is it a recognised substitute for Christian (as Xmas is for Christmas). I don't know if you created this word and are now trying to make it hip or fashionable, but whatever your reason, it is not working.

It is not for a love of Christianity that this bothers me, it's just out of respect for basic communication and language skills.

Xian - A city of central China southwest of Beijing. The capital (221-206 B.C.) of the Qin dynasty, it is a major commercial center and the capital of Shaanxi province. Population: 2,872,539.

I have already posted this once, but I feel I have to say it again:

I really don't care what you think about the word. It's easily understood and if you don't like it, don't use it. Prescriptivism is never a honorable trait. Language changes over time, so move with the flow and don't try to plug a dam with a sponge.

To back this up, I've got my good friend, Chaucer here to offer us this: "In forme of speeche is chaunge."

As for the relativity of 'Xian' as a city, it is a rather moot point. You are translating a Chinese word using the English alphabet. There are many different systems of doing this such as Wade-Gilles, who would refer to the same city as 'Hsian'.

Xian is sooooo WIZARD!

Sometimes I feel we grow, but we never truly learn...

It's time all the fundamentalists of the world were put to bed...either that, or they are strapped to a paper airplane flying towards the sun.

A paper airplane flying towards the sun? LOL..Then they would meet the Son/Sun..