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I wasn't sure either to post it here, or episode 2 or 3... Thought still, I think it would be a fair fight... Count Dooku wooped both, Obi Wan's a$$ and Anakins A$$ in a fight, easily. He would've defeated them with one hand. But when Anakin turned to the dark side, he became much more powerful. And after the lava pit scene, when he got his armor, he became much more durable. Yet is he still stronger then Dooku?

NO WAY!!! Sure Vader's armor made him more durable, but his suit is as heavy as hell!! He doesn't have the physical shape and agility that Count Dooku has. Vader can barely raise his lightsaber above his head!

And you saw Vader fight Luke in ROTJ, an UNTRAINED BOY. Luke totally OWNED Vader, especially after Vader mentioned Leia. When Luke was slashing at Vader with all his might, Vader was completely overwhelmed, he had no idea what to do. He was all confused and kept missing parries. So based on that, Dooku would hand the OT Vader his giant robotic @$$.

Actually Luke WAS trained in the Empire Strikes Back and even in Return of the Jedi when he returned to Degobah to supposedly complete his training, Yoda told him he already had. Plus he proclaimed himself under the title Jedi quite often.

You need to also take into account that all Dooku did was lightning and throw stuff. Vader had a lot more power and his lightsaber was much cooler. The only reason Vader's parries got worse was because he was tired of fighting Luke for a heck of a lot longer than Dooku was taking Anakin and Obi Wan. However since Dooku was able to cowardly escape Yoda, but still surivive against him, and Obi Wan and Anakin at once, I give him props.

by "untrained", i meant his training was incomplete.

His training was complete.

Ok the reason why Yoda said "No more training do you require" was that he knew Luke had the potential to defeat Vader. Plus, Yoda knew he was gonna die any second. He didn't necessarily mean Luke's training was complete.

Besides, how can you consider a few days of training to be complete training?

Don't you think he gained some experience from his endeavors at Jabba's palace and on the Sail Barge? Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think a mere Padawan would be able to coordinate and pull all of that off.

I think Obi-Wan in TPM could have easily pulled it off but that's just my opinion

Obi-Wan in TPM was training with Qui-Gon when he was a child, that's not much of a surprise if he could pull it off.

True, he probably did gain some experience in the escape from Jabba's sail barge, but one experience can't make someone complete their training. My point was that completing your training as a jedi requires years and years, and a few days plus that one experience just won't cut it.

He began his training in Empire Strikes Back, where he trained with Yoda briefly, however he confronted Vader and stayed true to light side and himself in Cloud City. There he fought Vader several times, and pulled off some great demonstrations of force masterhood, like his force jump out of the carbonite chamber. He coordinated the rescue at Jabba's Palace, and used the force adequately on Endor.

He had plenty of experience, and Yoda told him that he had completed his training upon his return to Degobah in ROTJ.

When Luke faced Vader his training was complete.

Well it really depends on how you look at it. If you compare Luke to the previous Jedi who have had years and years of training, then you can't really say Luke's training was complete. But if you are referring to training as Luke's numerous adventures (without a master teaching him) prior to his final confrontation with Vader, then i guess you can argue that Luke completed his training.

It's just like when Obi-Wan said Darth Vader murdered Anakin Skywalker "from a certain point of view"

You and I just looked at it from a different point of view and therefore our opinions are different.

Okay, here's a list of people who could defeat Vader after the lava bath:
Luke Skywalker
Darth Sidious

As you can see, NO ONE else could and that's that.

Mech Vader isn't THAT powerful. IMO any skillful Jedi Master would sweep the floor with Mech Vader.

Ok, let's get the facts straight here.

First of all, Vader is a lot less powerful than Anakin- fact from GL

Second, Luke when we see him fight in ALL the films is only a half-trained boy- fact from GL. He does not even finish his APPRENTICESHIP until the end of ROTJ.

Thirdly, all the prequel era combatants are much better than the oriignal trilogy ones- fact from GL.

Fourthly, therefore, Dooku would thrash Vader totally and utterly. This is not opinion; it is fact.

Fifthly... this belongs in the EU section. Moving.

THANK YOU Ushgarak, you took the words straight from my mouth.

so vader.

Wow. Because of that statement, I'm thoroughly convinced Vader will win

try backing your argument up next time

I think Vader
And at least in the EU Anakin being stronger than Vader is BS.
And aboot the Luke beating Vader I always thought Vader did that on purpose he wanted to loose, actually I belive Palpatine wanted Luke to be on the Dark Side and the easiest way would be to get Luke to kill his father.

Dooku. He's much too fast and he has Force lightning. Vader can't use Force lightning, can he? And even if the didn't work, Dooku's so fast he would beat Vader effortlessly.

Vader CAN use force lightning

Well, there are a lot of rumours going around Mech Vader having the ability to force lightning or not. A lot of people believed that Vader COULD use force lightning but never did because he was wearing a robotic suit, and if he did use force lightning, it would probably have an adverse effect on the only thing that keeps him alive. That was probably why when the emperor zapped him when he threw him into the core reactor, there was no way he could survive.

He used it in Splinter of the Mind's Eye

He did? Oh ok, nevermind then.

lol

In ESB Luke was out fought with class and experience by Vader..
In ROTJ Luke bought Vader by using the Darkside a bit with the same unrefined mad slashing style that Vader had circa ESB plus the culmination of his new and only recent and not time tested-sunk in experience too...against a vastly physically disadvantaged and non-force-lightning using Vader..... Yup I concurr, that that given the force lightning effect on Vader in ROTJ AND the fact that he only had the speed
craft advantage over Luke (Relatively inexperienced) that Dooku would've been like either:
(A)"Hello Vader..."(Force lightning) respirator-game over...
(B)"Hello Vader..."(Outclasses a slower less agile target)
"Heres your ass on a plate for you...Hmmm.. What a pussy....."

Two footnotes: I am aware that in my "Jar-Jar demise" thread that I depicted Vader using force lighting in it...

A: I didn't think too much back then about it being the stoner that I was back then.

B: Jar-Jar thoroughly deserved it anyways

First off, this has been an amusing thread. Sadako, when I read your post I about died. I love the pic of Jar Jar, btw.

Second, if Luke's a fully trained Jedi I'm a bloody master. A few weeks with a decrepid old hobbit and successfully defeating a Hutt sure didn't make him a full Knight in my opinion. Note too that he didn't apparently master his emotions in either his trials nor at the end of the flick.

Third, Vader is sloooow. I don't care if he could Force Lightining the sun, his fighting style has grown weak with lack of use. Keep in mind that Vader was about the only visible Jedi/Sith of his time when episode IV begins, so naturally he hasn't fought anybody in a long time. And neither his Obi Wan, his only comfirmed movie Jedi kill (omitting the not-yet-out episode III) And seeing as ancient Obi Wan let himself die, more or less, kinda takes the air out of the kill.

And considering Vader let his son more or less whoop him speaks measures. You know, I completely forgot what this thread was about and just had to go recheck... alright, onto the point.

Count Dooku may have been old, but he was more human, and definately much more learned than Vader or Anakin. Even without use of Force powers I believe he could whoop at least Episodes VI thru VI Vader. I haven't as of yet seen Episode III so young Anakin may just get better. Who knows? But Vader definately loses this one.

ok FYI Vader CANNOT use force lightning. You have to be able to project it through a human hand. Vader can't. See Star Wars: Insider, issue #80

VADER WOULD OWN

he uses a force projectile in splinter of the mind's eye close to force lightning, but it was more of a kinetic energy ball. get your facts straight people

You're a rather outspoken one.

im trying to correct facts.....sor-ry

I don't doubt that you're probably right with something to back it up, which is rare indeed around here. But I still believe in being a bit tactful about it.

ok, wow, its a forum about a movie, on the internet.....its not like im writing a resume for a million dollar a year career here,lol. i mean c;mon, give me a break.

Meh, I was just saying... Maybe your font seems angry. lol... don't worry about it. I'm just a stickler for etiquette.

lol, thats cool

VADER CRUSHES HIM

this is interesting, in terms of a force powers only battle vader is ALOT more powerful but all it takes is a little force lightning and he's fried, for saber fighting dooku would destroy him unless vader somehow managed to find a way to let the force guide his saber for him like yoda does.

Dooku would win but not that easily. Anakin achieved that but by speed. Vader is far more slower which makes him lose for Dooku technic

dooku hands down. as i said in a previous thread, after what obi wan did to him, he was severely diminished.

i think the dooku that he killed in RotS could've killed anakin easily, but the old fool listened to sids, and paid the price. and that anakin would've whooped mech-vader's ass!

Doesn't Anakin win this 50 years ago?

Dooku might be able to take the older, less agile Vader.

Vader! And for all you Vader haters out there, we'll blow your planet up!

Darth Vader would take this one...not easily, but he would take it.

Dooku would own Vader. He was a more powerful Force user, a better duelist, and was generally superior. Want more proof? Dooku threw Obi in his prime across the room and knocked him unconscious with just the Force. Vader couldn't even do that to old Obi or even ESB Luke. Vader lost to Luke who was just a Jedi knight while Dooku could hold out against ROTS Anakin and ROTS Obi whom were both stronger than Vader.

Vader was holding back on Luke because he wanted to turn him not kill him. If he could turn him then himself and Luke could've ruled the galaxy together. Vader also didn't have to throw Ben across the Death Star to beat him but if he had too I'm sure he could. Dooku is strong but Vader is just as strong. He just tends to not have to use his power as much.

Originally posted by TraptUnderIce
Vader was holding back on Luke because he wanted to turn him not kill him. If he could turn him then himself and Luke could've ruled the galaxy together. Vader also didn't have to throw Ben across the Death Star to beat him but if he had too I'm sure he could. Dooku is strong but Vader is just as strong. He just tends to not have to use his power as much.

How many times must I say it? Vader WAS trying. Lucas says so, the books say so, and there's nothing in the movie to prove otherwise. If Vader "coul've killed him but wasn't trying" why didn't he just beat him like in ESB? Because he couldn't. Vader was humiliated that Luke was beating him. If anyone wasn't trying, it was Luke and the movies sure show that. Once he did start trying, he had Vader on the ground barely able to hold his lightsaber in about 30 seconds.

Now you said Vader could throw Ben across the Death Star. I don't think so, why didn't he do that to a simple Jedi knight then before he got owned, and Luke was sure not as strong as ROTS Obi.

Dooku would spank Vader IMO.

didnt we see this fight already?

ok so dooku was told to lose, but vader is also much more force-powerful as mech. not as fast,or as good as he could be. but hes got enough to get the job done on dookie......love dooku though.

Lucas specifically says Anakin gets weaker when he becomes mech, and we can see that in his fighting.

Dooku wins.. Faster better lightsaber skills and not weak in the force either

dont know if you saw the third episode but actually anakin killed dooku, so why would vader lose? it just sounded that vader is weak because the movie was done centuries ago, i mean the fighting on vader saga was horrible, and thats why dooku sounds stronger but its not.

OK, Anakin defeating Dooku does NOT necessarily mean Vader can. Lucas already said that Vader in OT was much weaker than ROTS Anakin. I would say Dooku, because he was much faster and if he catches Vader off guard one dose of force lightning Vader is toast.

maybe, but i would rather see vader fighting in an new movie to take conclusions, and still, there is a great difference betwen the vader that lost to luke and the one that killed obi-wan

one lightning bolt fries vader

What Vader and what Dooku are we talking of here?

ANH Vader?
ESB Vader?
ROTJ Vader?

AOTC Dooku?
Or ROTS Dooku?

Seriously, their skill changes in time.

All together i think Dooku would own. Vader sucked after he got his limbs burned and chopped.

There's no way Dooku could beat Vader. Vader is wearing a VCR and VCRs completely rock old people. It's like calling your dog with a walkie talkie. It just confuses and frustrates them.

Seriously though, I think Dooku would take it.

Originally posted by MTAPlayer
dont know if you saw the third episode but actually anakin killed dooku, so why would vader lose? it just sounded that vader is weak because the movie was done centuries ago, i mean the fighting on vader saga was horrible, and thats why dooku sounds stronger but its not.

Dooku was told not to defeat Anakin (he wasn't told to lose that caught him off guard) but he changed his style and the way he fought when he faced Anakin he never really challenged him head on. Vader however has a imo better control of the force but he isn't that much of a fighter anymore and Dooku his control of the force was great too, that wouldn't help all that much. Dooku would defeat him with a lightsaber

dooku was told not to defeat anakin?? i think i missed this part of the movie then.

Originally posted by MTAPlayer
dooku was told not to defeat anakin?? i think i missed this part of the movie then. It might've been in the book. I assumed it since Sid did want Anakin as his apprentice and an apprentice with a whole in his chest doesn't do a lot.

Yeah its in books

hmm, sorry i never read any of SW books, but you readers, was Vader told to not defeat luke as well?

Not that I know off... Vader did not want to kill Luke because of his own emotions not because of what the Empire wanted...

The Emperor wanted to capture Luke Skywalker...remember in ESB
From the original Empire Strikes Back....not the special DVD scene

VADER: What is thy bidding, my master?

EMPEROR: There is a great disturbance in the Force.

VADER: I have felt it.

EMPEROR: We have a new enemy -- Luke Skywalker.

VADER: Yes, my master.

EMPEROR: He could destroy us.

VADER: He's just a boy. Obi-Wan can no longer help him.

EMPEROR: The Force is strong with him. The son of Skywalker must not
become a Jedi.

VADER: If he could be turned, he would become a powerful ally.

EMPEROR: Yes. Yes. He would be a great asset. Can it be done?

VADER: He will join us or die, my master.

Originally posted by Darth Plagues
The Emperor wanted to capture Luke Skywalker...remember in ESB
From the original Empire Strikes Back....not the special DVD scene

VADER: What is thy bidding, my master?

EMPEROR: There is a great disturbance in the Force.

VADER: I have felt it.

EMPEROR: We have a new enemy -- Luke Skywalker.

VADER: Yes, my master.

EMPEROR: He could destroy us.

VADER: He's just a boy. Obi-Wan can no longer help him.

EMPEROR: The Force is strong with him. The son of Skywalker must not
become a Jedi.

VADER: If he could be turned, he would become a powerful ally.

EMPEROR: Yes. Yes. He would be a great asset. Can it be done?

VADER: He will join us or die, my master.

That conversation there says it all, vader asked luke to join him and when he refused he tried to kill him.

IF the Emperor and Vader are both worried about Luke being trained that says something.
Also, if Yoda believed that they could just train Luke as little as they did and still challenge the emperor and vader, then obviously he has more skill than we give him credit for.
Vader's armor was heavy sure, but with his affinity of the force and rage he could still slap dooku around HELLA

Originally posted by Darth_Nefarus
IF the Emperor and Vader are both worried about Luke being trained that says something.
Also, if Yoda believed that they could just train Luke as little as they did and still challenge the emperor and vader, then obviously he has more skill than we give him credit for.
Vader's armor was heavy sure, but with his affinity of the force and rage he could still slap dooku around HELLA

1. Vader and Sidious feared Luke because of what he was to become, NJO Luke, who would own OT Vader silly.

2. Sidious was interested in turning Luke to the dark side, which was the only reason why he didn't kill him (until the very end when Luke refused to turn to the dark side), but by that time Vader already relealized that he loved his son enough to give up being a sith lord, and saved him. Yoda didn't exactly send Luke to kill Vader and Sidious, but to turn his father back to the light. Sidious died because he underestimated the power of love between father and son. So it is impressive, but doesn't make him all powerful.

3. Vader is described by Lucas as a shell of his former self, or something to that effect. Dooku is a much better swordsman and can do a hell of a lot more dark side attacks that Vader, including force lightning, which is Vader's ultimate weakness. Dooku would own Vader while eating breakfast and reading a newspaper.

Geez man its been awile since I have seen this thread.

just wanted to correct some mistakes...

dooku handles this with ease

um u do all relize in the 3rd move this fight happen and anny killed dooku

um you do realize that OT Vader is a major declinement from ROTS Anakin and that Dooku was holding back against Anakin. (Note how everytime they locked sabers, Dooku decided to give Anakin room and wait for him to attack.) Doesn't really look like he was trying.

Originally posted by wolverine8888
um u do all relize in the 3rd move this fight happen and anny killed dooku


Do you know what "Shallow" means?

This thread is riduculous. Tyranus would pwn OT Vader. Vader lost to Luke. Tyranus had a draw with Yoda.

Now, PT, non-mechanical Vader vs. Tyranus would be a bit more even. But don't forget, Tyranus beat Obi-Wan and Obi-wan beat Vader. And don't using "Just because A>B>C doesn't mean A>C" because Tyranus didn't just barely beat Obi-Wan he beat Obi-Wan with relative ease.


The only catageory Vader even compares to Tyranus in is lightsaber skills and that's only ROTS non-mechanical Vader and Tyranus still wins in that category, no doubt of that.

Done before, use the search button! Tyranus wins.

oh my god...

http://blogs.warwick.ac.uk/images/lblackwell/2005/03/01/thread_necromancer.png