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MM vs Hulk.......who beats who

i gotta give this battel to martai mahunter because he has a million ways to bring hulk daown and all hulk has are his fist.

where was MM when Doomsday killed supes?

actually he was there. but he was masquerading as Bloodwynd. i think his deal was he had memory loss or somethiing

i go with MM by the way

the pont is MM can kill hulk and to any hulk fan who says no explain how hulk can defeat MM.

umm (mostly) all doomsday has is hand to hand skills and he beat the ever loving crap out of MM .......and wonder woman, and flash, and GL, and orion, and Supes. In the Hulk vs. Doomsday thread A lot of people were backing hulk (though I still say DD takes him after a couple days of battle), I don't see why they wouldn't here. MM may be impressive but as Doomsday said "he's no superman", and we all know that Hulk and Supes have to go all out on eachother for one to beat the other.

yes but every time thers a hulk vs bttel all people seem to think about is the strength factor. yes hulk is stronger then MM without a ? but if people look beyond the strength factor they see that alot of weaker characters are fully able to defeat hulk in a battel. like ice man he could kill hulk by taking all the water in hulk body.but most people would say somethng like. naw man hulk would kill ice man like he was nothing. honstly i think it would be very easy for MM to kill hulk. He culd stop or crush hulks heart or brain. MM has a whole lotta ays of destroying hulk, but somebody gonna say noo hulk can do this and hulk can do that.

hulk is just a big babby with a whole lotta strength and endurance

doesn't change the fact that 3 times out of 4 in this fight "HULK SMASH!!!!!"

What happens when MM becomes transparent? Hulk Smash would do nothing.

What exactly are MM's powers, I'm not too familiar with DC

Super Strength, Intangibility, the transparent thing (i dont know the proper name), phsycic abilitys and he can shoot some sort of lasers from his eyes. And the intangibility lets him sort of morph, make huge hands etc.
He wouldnt do that.

I think MM has the better chance of winning, i mean his strength rivals hulks along with his other abilitys.
Hulk would have to be realy angry to win.

I'm sick of you guys hulk smash fun.Turn On your brains, excuse me for being so cruel, but:

Doomsday VS Hulk
How can you, Green big guy become more strong of your opponent if your opponent can kill you with only 1/2 blows?Your brains is destroyed and you're dead.And don't forget Doomsday spines on his hand that he can use to thrust through Hulk's chest and destroy his heart very quickly.

Hulk VS Martian Manhunter

J'onn had to put at low activity level Hulk's brain, so he's like a little scared cat, then he can hit him at full force with one punch and put him KO, and if he had to kill him, he can use the Vision trick, and become tangible into Hulk's heart or Brain.Hulk cannot become sufficient strenght in time, he's not the Flash in terms of enhancing is strenght, the rage have to grow, and if J'onn is invisible Hulks think he's escape and cannot enrage.

Hulk VS Superman

Heat vision at full force bye bye Hulk.A 20% of Supes strenght punch bye bye Hulk.Throwing Hulk into space, bye bye Hulk.Throwing Hulk to the moon with a punch bye bye Hulk

Guys that says Hulk smash are like the "If Batman had time to prepare" guys.

MM, GL, etc fought agains doomsday? when?

Hulk's healing factor would likely save him from Doomsday's blows. Though Doomsday has been killed by being beaten to death, so he can't die that way again, meaning Hulk would have a difficult time.

As for Martian Manhunter, you're underestimating Hulk. Isn't MM only able to maintain his intangibility for a limited period of time. Saying he could become intangible and crush Hulk's heart isn't a solid argument for two reasons: 1) Hulk's healing factor is virtually instantaneous, so it's possible that would not work, and 2) MM wouldn't do that anyway, or rather the writer would not have it work out that way. A battle has to be more complex than something that simple, otherwise nobody would bother writing it. And Hulk doesn't need to get enraged to be immensely strong, he has to get enraged to become unlimited in strength. Superman vs. Hulk would not end up in any of the ways you described. Gladiator used his heat vision on Hulk and all it did was piss Hulk off. It burned a hole in his chest, but it was healing at the same time Hulk was advancing on Gladiator. That would only work if Hulk stood there and allowed it to happen. Superman is not stronger than Hulk anymore, thus a 20% punch would barely tickle Hulk. Throwing Hulk into space is a cop-out answer and isn't much of a fight. Superman can 'throw' him, but he is no more capable of sending Hulk to the moon with a single punch then Hulk is against Supes. When has either ever sent anyone flying to the moon with one punch recently?

Well how are they going to fight if the writers don't write it, lol? I don't mean to say 'it depends on the writer' because that's always the case, but these characters aren't going to take the easy way out and crush someone's heart or send someone flying with one punch. That never happens. Otherwise guys like Thor and Surfer would beat anybody at any time because they can just use the godforce blast or the power cosmic and kill everyone they come across. In a realistic *I hate using that word, but still...* fight, MM would turn intangible sure, but I don't think he can last very long, and I don't see him just crushing Hulk's heart. I suppose he could yeah, but Hulk could also break his neck, that's still not likely to happen. It basically comes down to how long MM can remain intangible.

why go for the heart instead of the brain?

I was just using the heart as an example. Either way. Though it's not like Hulk needs his brain anyway, lol.

Doomsday beat the tar out of MM, supes, wonder woman ect in a comic book silly! I don't remember the name of the book itself but I have the paperback version in my collection at home. If you want I can give you a few scans of it this weekend. There's a sweet scene where Wonder Woman's pounding into DD with everything she's got and he doesn't even flinch "drop monster.....drop!"

yeah but...they didn't you want the pics though?

no really could do that.I rem reading a jla comic were he did something to jokers brain and made him sane for a short time and in one comics he almost killed black adam by stoping his heart.

The Martian could tranquilise the Hulk sufficiently to revert him to Banner who could then be killed easily.

That was in the "Doomsday Wars" TPB. I got duped into buying it coz I thought it'd have cool visuals of the JLA vs Doomsday but.... ehh.... that was not a war!

That was a little silly to have DD fight all three and win, but since Supes already killed Doomsday via physical ass-kicking, he obviously can't die like that again, so Wonder Woman's punches wouldn't affect him. She could probably kill him with her killer body though, lol. Sorry, had to say it.

K3VIL:I like this guy. he keeps it real
and please for the last friggin time QUIT USING DOOMSDAY AS A FUC*IN EXAMPLE. hulk is nowhere near doomsday in power or skill.

I'll stop using him as an example whe people stop saying he's a poor man's hulk. (ain't gonna happen though) besides it's more or less a decent example.

What? He's nowhere near him in power? Where the hell did you get that? Hulk is immeasurable in strength. So is Doomsday, but when you have two characters 'immeasurable in strength,' you can't really determine who's superior.

ya but dooms day got super speed and etc

any way to stay on topic MM will still defeat hulk even if he didnt have super strength becuse he has othe powers going for him. just like SS can defeat hulk without any superstrength at all cus he has other powers going for him.

MM woud use his telapathy calm the hulk down back into banner and end it easy

If you like my opinions take a look at my what if topic on the CB Movies Discussion

Lol, what a cop-out ending. Let them fight it out, don't turn him back into Banner.

even he didnt turn back to baner huk is still fu#ked badly becuse MM can kill hulk in a sec if he wanted to but his a to goody fu#k like most of DC heros.

MM= The powers and abilities of the Martian Manhunter are a mystery to most people and to extent even his friends. He has the ability to totally control his physical structure allowing him to shape shift, morph fluidly, and even turn invisible or intangible briefly. Physically he is Superman's league in terms of strength and endurance, the only thing that can harm him is an intense fear of fire (inborn in all Martians it is the basis of the god H'ronmeer who as well as being the object of fear as a fire god is the god of death via association). The effect of the fear is to strip any Martian of their super abilities via the psychosomatic effect of their own body control working involuntary against them.

Martians also possess a range of undefined mental abilities, primary among these is the telekinetic ability to fly. They also seem to have a range of telepathic powers including mind reading and to an extent active telepathy. The extent and true limitations of these powers are not known. One of the most prised abilities of the Martians is the ability Mayavana, it is the gift to reach into another mind and create a mental reality as real as any normal reality. The strain of Mayavana is such that it can only be used once a life time and so is normally used on the one that a Martian loves the most, J'onn used it on the rampaging Despero so that he thought that he had destroyed the JLI (subsequently he reverted to a an embryonic state) and therefore save his friends.

By the way maratain manhunter has lost his weakness to fire.

MM= The powers and abilities of the Martian Manhunter are a mystery to most people and to extent even his friends. He has the ability to totally control his physical structure allowing him to shape shift, morph fluidly, and even turn invisible or intangible briefly. Physically he is Superman's league in terms of strength and endurance, the only thing that can harm him is an intense fear of fire (inborn in all Martians it is the basis of the god H'ronmeer who as well as being the object of fear as a fire god is the god of death via association). The effect of the fear is to strip any Martian of their super abilities via the psychosomatic effect of their own body control working involuntary against them.

Martians also possess a range of undefined mental abilities, primary among these is the telekinetic ability to fly. They also seem to have a range of telepathic powers including mind reading and to an extent active telepathy. The extent and true limitations of these powers are not known. One of the most prised abilities of the Martians is the ability Mayavana, it is the gift to reach into another mind and create a mental reality as real as any normal reality. The strain of Mayavana is such that it can only be used once a life time and so is normally used on the one that a Martian loves the most, J'onn used it on the rampaging Despero so that he thought that he had destroyed the JLI (subsequently he reverted to a an embryonic state) and therefore save his friends.

hulk has nothing on his side but brutre stenght, and it's not enough to be him because 1.he could turn into a puddle of green slime 2. he could shapeshift into a rock or chair or something and have hulk looking like a dumbass looking for him and man other ways to take him down. hulk just can't win this one and Doomsday is probably weaker than hulk lbut he could still wail on his ass(but lobo'd give him a hell of a time)

I dont like to admitt it but I think MM can win this simply because he can become intangible and has the ability to fly. Hard for Hulk to smash him if he is intangible.

what if MM used Mayavana on the hulk what would happen

Hulk smashes any idiot that gets in his way

They're both green so..

Both are at current power levels.

Discuss

There is still debates going on about if Hulk can beat Superman. Martian Manhunter is less stronger then Superman, so I am giving this to Hulk.

Although I don't know will MM's shapeshifing effect the battle much...

Oh, right, telepathy! MM wins if Hulk isn't immune to that.

hmm..

Hulk has some psychic abilities, he etc. sees astral forms.

Mindless Hulk might prove hard to control telepathically.

http://www.gammabase.com/hulkdatabase/mindlesshulk.gif

I think those are just manifestations of his multiple personalities in his brain. I don't think those qualify as psychic abilities. All people have astral forms.

The hulk takes this one. MM can fly around trying hit and move tatics but the hulk can leap rally far. Hulk wins.

Martian Manhunter. People are classifying him superior than Xavier and since Jean Grey has already taken down Hulk via telepathy, then Martian Manhunter certainly can also.

This is almost funny...

Hulk, hands down.
Martian Manhunter has THAT powerful of a psychic ability? Hmm... I dont want to buy it. So I wont! Maybe if I break it...

You must be joking!
Martian Manhunter is not weaker the Superman. He is FAR more powerful. This is the guy who took down the ENTIRE JLA (including Superman) by himself. Batman (actually batman's strategies) have been used before to take down the JLA (when Rhas Al Ghul stole Batman's info and used them to take down the Justice LEague), but ONLY MM has taken down the Justice LEague by himself using direct confrontation.
He tore them apart.
They could not even touch him.
As for Superman the guy was thrashed like a sick puppy, before finally being phased through solid objects and solidified in them.
MM also touched the minds of everyone in the world, he caused nuclear power nations to launch their ICBMs (he would use the nuclear fires to create more copies of himself - and by the way he is no longer afraid of flame), and he was one of the main threats towards Oa (where the Green Lanterns get their energy from).
Superman said he was the most powerful being on earth, and the last person he would like to face in combat.
Green Lantern concured.
And the guardians of Oa agreed.
MM is almost as strong as Superman in strength, has heat vision, can phase through solid objects (and i would like to see how the Hulk can hit something intangible), can turn invisible, and is the most powerful earth telepath in the whole of DC. He does things Xavier would need Cerebro/Cerebra for.
The Hulk is powerful, and if he got angry enough he can take down the current Superman.
But the Hulk would not last long against MM. All MM would have to do is cause the Hulk to revert to Banner, and then squish him to pulp.
Or he could make Hulk think he won the fight by placing a simple mental image.
Or he could make the Hulk have a fight in his mind - where the Hulk thinks he is engaged in battle but he is just on the ground curled up.
And i would like to see how the Hulk's vaunted healing system (which is far better than Wolverines) would deal with a simple metal pipe phased into the middle of his brain or heart.
Anyways, i know this forum has a lot of Marvel fanboys, but truth be told MM would destroy the Hulk. (Infact according to DC,during the time DoomsDay destroyed the JLA and killed Superman, they had to make the MM into BloodWynd - when he was having mental problems - so as to be able to kill of Superman without too many questions asked. MM, as MM not Bloodwynd, could have handled DoomsDay all by himself. Quickly).
MM wins this. But i will not be surprised if by the end of the day it is several hundred votes for the Hulk and one for MM (since most people do not even know that much of MM, and even if they did they would never vote against Marvel).
For those who would like to know of MMs true power check out JLA: Trial by Fire. In it MM makes the entire JLA look like pipsqueeks,and does mental stuff that Xavier would have wet dreams about.

martian would have hulk sucking his martian cock

I think you've mixed up forums there. This is KMC, not KY-C.

I think that hulk would lose so quickly that he wouldn't know that the fight started.

Keep comments like that out of this forum.

And Draco, this has already been done, so...

Merging

Hulk goes down. MM is probably the most underrated character in any comic book. His telepathy is FAR superior to that of Xavier. Ad to that his many other formidable characteristics, Hulk stands no chance.

simply put hulk cant kill what he cant touch

Simply.

So much green in this battle.

stalemate, MM can never kill the Hulk, and the Hulk will never take down Manhunter

Originally posted by gautam
MM vs Hulk.......who beats who

Martin Manhunter, simply because his varies amount of techniques give him a upper-hand

The hulk is immune to mind control because of his multiple personalities. The hulk is engine of destruction if MM trade blows with hulk he will lose bad he can't withstand the raw power of the hulk mader he gets the stronger he gets and so does his durability increase also. Remeber the hulk fought onslaught and kick his a$$ destroying his armor. Martian Manhunter mind powers doesn't work on evebody doomsday, captain marvel who kick his a$$ bad by the way, Darkseid, Jemm son of Saturn, Amazo etc. Martain Manhunter can beat the hulk but which one there are so many, mr. fixit will lose bad, professor hulk will get KO, mindless hulk will get KO, War hulk kills MM, Savage hulk 7/10, The Masetro hulk kills all day MM, Devil Hulk eats him alive.


Hulk will win but it would be a close one though.
7/10 hulk

Originally posted by the Darkone
The hulk is immune to mind control because of his multiple personalities. The hulk is engine of destruction if MM trade blows with hulk he will lose bad he can't withstand the raw power of the hulk mader he gets the stronger he gets and so does his durability increase also. Remeber the hulk fought onslaught and kick his a$$ destroying his armor. Martian Manhunter mind powers doesn't work on evebody doomsday, captain marvel who kick his a$$ bad by the way, Darkseid, Jemm son of Saturn, Amazo etc. Martain Manhunter can beat the hulk but which one there are so many, mr. fixit will lose bad, professor hulk will get KO, mindless hulk will get KO, War hulk kills MM, Savage hulk 7/10, The Masetro hulk kills all day MM, Devil Hulk eats him alive.


Hulk will win but it would be a close one though.
7/10 hulk

Sounds like Fan boy material you got there

hmm . . .

i get what everyone says about mm. i love the character and he IS vastly underrated. but i don't know. hulk's resistance to mental powers is quite vast, especially once he's already enraged - and in bloodlust i assume he is VERY enraged. he's broken free of mentallo's influence for one, but much more impressively, when he was being controlled by the stranger he also smashed his control. he does have some sort of undefined mental ability of his own. he can see 'ghosts' and astral forms that others can't.

as far as phasing him into the ground or wherever - that's been done (wish i could recall the issue. maybe someone can help me with it?) and hulk smashed his way out. the same thing happened to thor. phasing something into hulk's heart or brain? not sure about this one but hulk once had his own hands inside his stomach because a wound to his stomach with adamantium blades healed so fast he couldn't take them out while he held in his intestines! hulk had to literally rip his hands out of his own stomach! vision also tried phasing into hulk and controlling his body and mind while INSIDE the hulk. that . . . didn't go very well for him. the hulk actually absorbed vision's essence and would have killed him had not betty helped calm hulk down. vision said his rage was simply too much to control and it crushed vision.

i'm not saying hulk wins this for sure, but if mm's mental powers aren't enough to take hulk down (and they might be, but as i said, hulk's resistance is enormously high and higher when enraged. bloodlusted i'm not sure i really like mm's chances with it . . .) and if phasing hulk into things and phasing things into hulk doesn't work (the latter might - not sure how he would deal with something in his brain but, since savage hulk works on instinct as much as anything he might just rip it out and heal the wound like any other) then that means mm would have to become physical at some point and mm may be able to match supes for a time he can't remain at that level indefinitely while hulk would ALREADY be stronger than him even at his max.

if hulk can withstand mm's variety of attacks - not completely impossible imho based on some of the things hulk has done in the past - mm would put him through hell, but hulk could take him.

Originally posted by Freaky Zeeky
Sounds like Fan boy material you got there

It's in his profile hulk 2004 handbook.

Originally posted by leonidas
hmm . . .

i get what everyone says about mm. i love the character and he IS vastly underrated. but i don't know. hulk's resistance to mental powers is quite vast, especially once he's already enraged - and in bloodlust i assume he is VERY enraged. he's broken free of mentallo's influence for one, but much more impressively, when he was being controlled by the stranger he also smashed his control. he does have some sort of undefined mental ability of his own. he can see 'ghosts' and astral forms that others can't.

as far as phasing him into the ground or wherever - that's been done (wish i could recall the issue. maybe someone can help me with it?) and hulk smashed his way out. the same thing happened to thor. phasing something into hulk's heart or brain? not sure about this one but hulk once had his own hands inside his stomach because a wound to his stomach with adamantium blades healed so fast he couldn't take them out while he held in his intestines! hulk had to literally rip his hands out of his own stomach! vision also tried phasing into hulk and controlling his body and mind while INSIDE the hulk. that . . . didn't go very well for him. the hulk actually absorbed vision's essence and would have killed him had not betty helped calm hulk down. vision said his rage was simply too much to control and it crushed vision.

i'm not saying hulk wins this for sure, but if mm's mental powers aren't enough to take hulk down (and they might be, but as i said, hulk's resistance is enormously high and higher when enraged. bloodlusted i'm not sure i really like mm's chances with it . . .) and if phasing hulk into things and phasing things into hulk doesn't work (the latter might - not sure how he would deal with something in his brain but, since savage hulk works on instinct as much as anything he might just rip it out and heal the wound like any other) then that means mm would have to become physical at some point and mm may be able to match supes for a time he can't remain at that level indefinitely while hulk would ALREADY be stronger than him even at his max.

if hulk can withstand mm's variety of attacks - not completely impossible imho based on some of the things hulk has done in the past - mm would put him through hell, but hulk could take him.





I agree with you on that. Good job!!!

Martian Manhunter reflexes and speed are superhuman.
He can certainly phase solid, take off Hulks heart and destroy it with martian vision with ease.
Then bye bye Hulk.

Originally posted by Wynndar
where was MM when Doomsday killed supes?
Martian Manhunter was known as Bloodwynd at the time, and had forgotten that he was Martian Manhunter, and even had a new powerset and everything. WAY depowered compared to normal MM, but BW was no joke either.

Whoever said Hulk wins this battle is out their damn mind.
He has NOTHING,
NOT ONE ADVANTAGE OVER MARTIAN MANHUNTER
NOT ONE
AT ALL



And to whoever said they aren't buying that MM is a powerful pychic, Martian Manhunter can touch and read all minds on the planet at once.
Strength, speed and durability on par with Superman.
Super healing.
Martian vision, heat vision equivelent.
Telescopic vision, microscopic vision, super-hearing, all like Superman.
11 senses, as opposed to 5. A
Intangibility, invisibility, able to shape-shift, stretch, etc.
Of the most powerful telepaths there is, period.
And MILLIONS OF YEARS of experience in fighting!



And he ISSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS weak to fire, to the people who are saying he's not. One of the OMACS just set him on fire . .. in the newest JSA I think it is. It just takes like . . super-fire to hurt him now. Matches and torches and shit won't work. But apperently someone with Fire abilities and manipulation can still **** him up.

<<And to whoever said they aren't buying that MM is a powerful pychic, Martian Manhunter can touch and read all minds on the planet at once.>>

so? hulk is likely immune to his telepathy.

<<Strength, speed and durability on par with Superman.>>

no it's not. it can be for brief amounts of time. his durability is nowhere near supes. and his strength - even for the time it is at max - is less than bloodlusted hulk. when he tires it will be FAR less. with hulk's INCREASING strength and durability, that would make it harder and harder for mm to hurt him. or, strength is one advantage hulk has.

<<Super healing.>>

not even close to hulk's. so there is a second advantage he has.

<<Martian vision, heat vision equivelent.>>

so? thanos and vector fried all the skin off of him leaving little more than a skeleton. hulk healed back to gfull in minutes. glads burned a hole right through him and has his vision shoved back in his face ending that fight (the fight wasdone BEFORE hulk ever stuck him in that reactor)

<<Telescopic vision, microscopic vision, super-hearing, all like Superman.>>

so? might come in handy if someone shrinks hulk before the fight.

<<11 senses, as opposed to 5>>

so?

<<Intangibility, invisibility, able to shape-shift, stretch, etc.>>

if he's intangible he's not hitting hulk. if his mental powers won't work being intangible won't do him any good. invisibility is an option but i'd guess hulk would shockwave to find him. with his 'martian ears' a hulk shockwave ought to sound like a nuclear bomb going off in his skull and stun him into being visible. shapeshifting may help some, but if he's in a physical form hulk can hit him and if hulk is hitting him mm WILL get hurt.

<<Of the most powerful telepaths there is, period.>>

not gonna matter if hulk's immune. do you know who the stranger is?

<<And MILLIONS OF YEARS of experience in fighting!>>

didn't help thor once thor tossed away his hammer and was beaten down badly byb a hulk who ultimately chose to walk away rather than continue the beating.

not saying hulk WILL win this fight, i'm saying he has a chance based on what he has done in the past.

Martian Manhunter can't even beat doomsday what makes you think he can beat the savage hulk who will physical kill him. Martian Manhunter is one of toughest beings on jla roster but the hulk is another story. Martian Manhunter phasing has been don to the hulk before by the vision and he got f**ked up what's Martian Manhunter so different, Martian Manhunter strength is good for only certain amount of time where the hulk will get stronger and more durable than Martian manhunter when the hulk is enrage he is immune to mind control and telepathy it has been stated in many updated bios.

Yeah MM can become phase/transparent, how will the hulk stop him then,
MM has got super-speed and strenght, the hulk cant even keep up with wolverine, so how can he keep up with mm

Originally posted by Juntai
Whoever said Hulk wins this battle is out their damn mind.
He has NOTHING,
NOT ONE ADVANTAGE OVER MARTIAN MANHUNTER
NOT ONE
AT ALL



And to whoever said they aren't buying that MM is a powerful pychic, Martian Manhunter can touch and read all minds on the planet at once.
Strength, speed and durability on par with Superman.
Super healing.
Martian vision, heat vision equivelent.
Telescopic vision, microscopic vision, super-hearing, all like Superman.
11 senses, as opposed to 5. A
Intangibility, invisibility, able to shape-shift, stretch, etc.
Of the most powerful telepaths there is, period.
And MILLIONS OF YEARS of experience in fighting!



And he ISSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS weak to fire, to the people who are saying he's not. One of the OMACS just set him on fire . .. in the newest JSA I think it is. It just takes like . . super-fire to hurt him now. Matches and torches and shit won't work. But apperently someone with Fire abilities and manipulation can still **** him up.

I completely agree with this.

Has it been mentioned what the rest of his 11 senses do?

Originally posted by Juntai
Martian Manhunter was known as Bloodwynd at the time, and had forgotten that he was Martian Manhunter, and even had a new powerset and everything. WAY depowered compared to normal MM, but BW was no joke either.
The reason he had a new power set is becuz it's been stated that martian manhunter has at least a dozen other powers that he has not revealed yet. Those were all powers that belonged to MM. One of which I know he rarely exibits is Telekenesis.

You guys are all so silly. Martian Manhunter can read hulks mind and Turn himself into betty Banner. Down to the smell and everything. The hulk would calm down and Bamn, One fist turned into a giant blade to the brain and it's over.