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The year is 2005 for all of the characters, they are all at their current states of all powers. Kryptonite is a banned substance.

No outside help.

Who's the victor?

First of all welcome. Second of all I think Superman would win.http://img217.exs.cx/img217/9341/ffwallpaper5et.jpg

I dont see how one guy can take out four. But I guess he has that superspeed thing going for him.

Sweet picture. The FF working together too much for Kal.

FF wins!

BJG

Thing and Reed can't hurt him. Johnny could possibly hurt him with his nova blast or whatever and I don't know much about Susan...maybe she could make a bubble in his brain or something I don't know, but what I do know is that if he really wanted to win he would knock all of them out with one punch at super speed.

Well with strength like Supermans just a tap from him would knock all of them out and that includes old blue eyes imo. Mix in the near lightspeed footspeed the FF might be in trouble.

Superman would kill them if he wanted to. I mean the thing would not make him budge and The stretch and fire guy and invisible girl go down easy.

can susan reed put a bubble on his head, I mean a force field. Hard to call.

I don't know, but either way, Superman could just take her out first (at light speed). She's probably the biggest threat anyway. Then he can move to Johnny, Reed, and finally Thing. All of this in about half a second.

well i heard the torch was now a herald of galactus.......... if that's true he could probably take supes solo

Ever seen him do this?

He has taken out the whole GL Corp. because he is faster than thought itself.

he has sue's powers, not much else... supes could take him...

and isn't supes' body protected a by a skin tight forcefield? can sue even penetrate that?

It's not a matter of history, it's a matter of how he could use his powers to their fullest extent. Super speed is just one of the many perks to Superman fighting all out.

That's not entirely fair. Superman rarely, if ever "speed blitzes" anyone, and even when he did fight "all out" (Doomsday?) he still (that I can recall) never speed blitzed anyone into submission. That's akin to saying that every Wolverine battle should be discussed with the implicit understanding that Wolverine will be in berserker mode (or, as the board says, "bloodlust", and he has gone 'zerk more times than Superman has simply "speed blitzed" an opponent.

Superman loses, imo -- and to whomever asked if TIW is capable of that little forcefield in the brain trick, the answer is yes. Disagree? Recall in Wolverine #22 when he ran into The Invisible Woman and felt his lungs freeze up? She explained to him that she had a pair of her force fields resting in his lungs, and if he did not stop (he was under the control of Hydra), that she would double their size.

And btw, how on earth is Superman taking her out faster than she puts up a forcefield (that's a stretch considering there is no way to calibrate "the speed of thought"?

Has anything collapsed her constructs?

I realize that it might be considered a stretch in a battle, but he is capable of superspeed, and the rules for this whole forum say that each character (unless otherwise stated) will do whatever they have to do to win. Speed is one of Superman's greatest (and most rarely portrayed) abilities, the reason being that if he used it all the time, he would be unstoppable by many of the villains he faces. And, people would begin to question the Flash as a necessary superhero, which many people seem to already do.

And there is a "speed of thought", it's been measured. I don't know the exact speed, but I know it's been brought up in one of these threads, and was shown to be far slower than most "speedsters".

I dont think so. But Supermans fists would be a good start. Have they felt the power of Supermans punch? I know the Hulk and Thor have.

I quote Tron in the official rules and guidelines thing the mods posted:
"It's said that the speed of thought is about 30 m/s.
Note that it's meters per second, not miles"

Superman is faster than that, he's near light speed. I don't know how far away they all are from eachother when the battle starts, but it would have to be a considerable distance for Superman not to be able to reach Sue in time.

At first I was thinking Superman would win, but if there's prep time then the FF wins. Even without that, I still say the FF because Sue (or Johnny now) could pretty much blind him by making his retinas invisible and making a soundproof force field around his head to deafen him so everyone can take their best shots on him. Honestly I don't think any power the FF has other than Sue's powers would bother him. Then there's the whole putting force fields inside his body thing than sum1 already mentioned.


Yes IF superman were to go and "speed blitz" Sue would have to put up a force field and superman pounding on it like he would have to do would K.O. Sue from the feedback she gets. (I feel like every time I post on, or read a FF battle I end up mentioning that..) With Sue out, AND Reed with no prep time, Supes has it all wrapped up.


NOT SURE ABOUT THIS PART
Also if I remember correctly (which I probably don't), I think batman used some kryptonite on Superman once that turned his skin transparent or something like that (when batman beat the JLA <can't remember for sure tho> a while back) and either his body couldn't get the sun's rays, or his heat vision wouldn't shut off because it was going thru his eyelids uncontrollably or some thing like that... I really don't remember...but if thats the case with his heat vision, then Superman would probably just accept defeat so no innocents get hurt.

And all are assuming that Superman **would** use speed as an offense (or when going all out) when it has yet to be proven that he has done so...when going all out? That's my point. He has an ability (simply "speed punching" an opponent into oblivion) that I have never seen him use (even when in dire straits), yet it is safe to assume that, when going all out, he WOULD use it? That just does not make much sense. That's like saying that because I have teeth to bite that I WILL use them when I'm fighting, although whenever I fight, I never bite...but we've got to factor that into the equation when discussing my fighting "all out."

Furthermore...Superman fires the very same synapses that TIW fires in order to perform an action -- yet he would be able to will himself to travel at superspeed before she can will herself to put up a forcefield? Superman might TRAVEL at near light-speed (and this is incorrect; Flash does not even travel nearly that fast on earth), but he does not THINK that quickly.

As far as "Tron" saying that the speed of thought is 30 m/s, that's gospel? Can't be, considering Hermann von Helmholtz concluded that neurons communicate with each other at speeds more than thrice that (and that is Dr. Helmholtz's method of calibrating the speed of thought, which has not been universally agreed upon).

*shrug* Will just agree to disagree.



Superman cannot even overpower The Hulk (who is stronger than both Thor and Superman, by the way). Sue has very little to worry about as far as someone physically collapsing them.

Re: Batman using red kryptonite on Superman, red kryptonite (actually I think that it was synthetic) simply amplifies Superman's powers to painful levels. That was from Mark Waid's "The Tower of Babel" story arc.

"As far as "Tron" saying that the speed of thought is 30 m/s, that's gospel? Can't be, considering Hermann von Helmholtz concluded that neurons communicate with each other at speeds more than thrice that (and that is Dr. Helmholtz's method of calibrating the speed of thought, which has not been universally agreed upon)."

Take it up with Tron.

I'm not sure, but were you saying that FF would use Kryptonite? Or just saying how they could use similar methods, because Kryptonite is a "banned substance" in this thread.

There's no prep time.

I think it's fairly safe to assume that despite rarely or never using "speed punching", Superman should be able to do just that, seeing as he can move at super speed, and he can throw a punch.

"Furthermore...Superman fires the very same synapses that TIW fires in order to perform an action -- yet he would be able to will himself to travel at superspeed before she can will herself to put up a forcefield? Superman might TRAVEL at near light-speed (and this is incorrect; Flash does not even travel nearly that fast on earth), but he does not THINK that quickly."

I disagree. First of all with your claim that Flash cannot run at near-lightspeed. He can. He really can. I guess that doesn't mean much since I don't have specific proof, it's just something that I assumed everyone who knew his character knew about. Second, that you believe Superman's brain operates at the same speed as Sue's. Hell, I don't know for sure, but it would seem to me that Superman's brain has to move at speeds very close to the speed at which he moves. I mean, if his brain was thinking at the speed of a normal human, and his body was moving Waaayy faster, wouldn't he constantly be running into things at that speed?

Not really gospel, just something to consider.

And like it said in the new rules, they're just experimental at the moment (if you didn't read that part), so they're not completely in stone yet.

I never understood this whole "move faster than the speed of thought" thing. That's a paradox. You can't move faster than the will to move because you have to will the movement to move, even at a subconscious "reflex" level.

From what I've read, Sue could bring up her bubbles instantly. Does this fight take place with Superman in the FF's line of site and have a start point (like someone would say "Go" and the battle begins), or is it more of a spontaneous occurence? If it's spontaneous, Supes has the advantage, If it has a start point, Sue could get her shield up IMO.

touch wont let supes near his sister.

Well I get that, but my thing is that I think Superman is able to think at near lightspeed. He can move at near lightspeed, so it makes sense that his brain can process information at that speed as well, or else he would be going faster than his brain can keep up with and he would be running into things all the time. Does that make sense? I'm not saying it's a fact, just that it seems logical to me. If someone has a different theory or if you know the truth, than let me know.

That makes perfect sense Nigel (even though sometimes I move faster than my brain and I become disoriented at times, like when I get up too fast and feel light headed).

My thing is in order to get faster than instantaneous (light isn't faster than 'instantaneous'), you'd have to be able to move back in time. If the fight has a start point, Supes can't hit Sue before she 'instantly' shields the FF unless he attacked before she put it up, meaning before the fight started. Feel me.

No need to take up the calibration of the speed of thought with Tron; I've debated this on other messageboards and am absolutely positive that 30 m/s is inaccurate (and if I am not mistaken, he just stated that "it was something to consider". You had pointed out "Well, Tron said..." Hence my asking, okay, since he said it...it is fact?

Re: Flash running at the speed of light on earth, no, he cannot -- and he cannot run (and will not run) at near light-speed on earth for fairly obvious reasons (wreaking havoc on the surrounding environment). This was stated in the recent JLA Guide that was released in...2003, I think it was; it is stated on myraid bio files on the web; Grant Morrison implied it in JLA #2 when he fought the white martian. I believe it has been stated that he will not travel at anything much faster than the speed of sound. Superman travels at around that speed also -- I have read many story arcs where you see "sonic booms" popping off (Wonder Woman does as well).

Re: Superman thinking at the speed of light, that is...yuck, don't feel like translating 30 m/s into 186,000 mph (let's just use Tron's figure for the sake of argument). But yes, of course he is capable of crunching numbers at accelerated speeds. That has been documented several times.

Allow me to build a different model. You are at a starting line beside me. I have a Volkswagen Rabbit. You have a Ferari F-50. We BOTH have to press the gas to accelerate, yet you will blow me away AFTER we both press the gas.

That is why I said that Superman will not be able to suddenly subdue The Invisible Woman before she is able to fire up a shield. And again, it is just something that he does not do.

Not really re-entering the debate. Just addressing items that I could/should have been a little clearer about.

illadelph, I am fairly certain that the speed of thought is not "instantaneous" -- Man assumed that it was for the longest time.

By the same token, you make a good point in stating that light-speed still is not faster than "instantly."

"We BOTH have to press the gas to accelerate, yet you will blow me away AFTER we both press the gas."

That's exactly my point. The thing is, all Sue has to do is "press the gas" and the shield goes up 'instantly'.

I wasn't stating that thought was instantaneous (that's a philosophy discussion in itself when you consider that all events must have a point of conception, and thought is a point of conception), I was just stating that if both Supes and Sue have to start at the same point, I don't think Supes would be able to get to Sue before the shield was raised, because once the battle begins, the shield would go up.

Basically, Sue and Supes both get off the block in the same moment, but the actions thereafter for Supes are at possible light speeds, where as Sue would only need that moment to raise the shield.

I am agreeing with you

Cool.

Now that we've got that out the way, who would win?

I don't think Sue's invisible shields are sound proof. Supes could possibly still know exactly where they are with his super hearing even after the shield is up, and he's going to pound away at it to get to them. Could Sue form a bubble inside his head from behind the shield?

I'm totally willing to agree with you guys, but I still feel as though there's one thing not being taken into account (I think). I'll use your analogy with the fast and the slow car. If the cars are representing the thought process, than there must be an ultimate "destination" (ie. actions taken once the thought has been processed). When the race starts, it is equivelant to the initial sensory response where the driver sees the flag go down. Then there is the time it takes for the messages coming from the senses to reach the brain, then for the brain to send messages to the foot to step on the gas. Relate it to the battle: If Superman is able to react faster (which I can't prove he is) than he can in a sense start his attack before Sue is able to proccess the information necessary to put up her force field. Basically, with a faster thought process, he is able to react before Sue can finish her thought process.

None of that is for certain, in fact it's pretty much bull****, but can you see where it's coming from?

illadelph, again, nothing has collapsed Sue's constructs. She is indeed able to use the "bubble in the brain" trick. I personally think that the FF will win.

nigel, hold on -- you are saying that superman should be able to choose Sue, decide to use his speed, then actually use his speed (three steps. optic nerve relaying message to the brain, brain deciding to attack/ brain sending signal to attack, superman attacking) before Sue can see Superman and simply pop a shield?

Yes, I personally think that's a stretch, but I see what you are saying. I am also not trying to change your mind, but am also trying to get you to see what I am saying by using that example to show why that I think such an approach is improbable.

Could is an uncertainty. He could have used them against Doomsday, but didn't. The comics are a fairer source material than the theoretical.



Something like...83131.67 m/s.

Well, I think I think it's possible that Superman could go through those three steps in less time than Sue does two. I mean, there are a ton of factors that go into it, so I don't really know, but can it really be proven that he couldn't? Lol, probably. I'm willing to accept that Superman loses if Sue gets a shield up before he can attack.

And we're also assuming that he will automatically attack Sue first?

Lol, welll...

Hmmm, aren't you ignoring Superman's heat vision?
He can fry Sue from beyond her eye-sight, since he
does have super-vision.
Come to think of it, the same applies to physically
attacking her. He can spot her from far away, swoop
down, punch her head off, all before she can even see
or hear him.
Then ofcourse, he can easily kill the other three with
three easy punches.
Soooooo easy.

Well we've kinda all agreed that Sue could put up a force field before Superman could reach her. But actually, I was going to bring up Superman's heat vision as well. He might be able to "fry" her before she gets up her construct. It's pretty similar to the physical attack in essence, but could he kill her with heat vision faster than he could kill her with a physical attack?

The Human Torch absorbs anything Superman fires at Sue and reduces it to the temperature of a cool breeze.

">>>>>The Human Torch has the ability to mentally control the ambient heat energy within his immediate environment,<<<<< even when he himself is not aflame. He can reduce objects' temperatures (if they are in a normal range for existing on Earth's surface) to about 30 F, raise them to several hundred degrees, or extinguish open flames. His radius of influence is about 80 feet. The heat energy he takes from the environment is absorbed into his own body. If he takes in a critical amount while he is not aflame, he will become aflame. There are unknown limits to the amount of flame he can absorb into his own body harmlessly while he is himself aflame."

Heh, he'll absorb whatever Superman tosses at Sue Storm and use it to fuel his own flame.

Check.

Does he automatically absorb and/or change the temperature of any heat that comes his way?

...Checkmate... just kidding.

Yes, if it poses a threat.

Can he logically analyze a possible threat in less than a second? Assuming Superman could analyze the situation rather quickly, and use his heat vision on Sue (all in maybe a second or less) could Torch prepare himself to stop it that quickly?

We're assuming he'll automatically aim for Sue first?

And considering this is a Superman **vs** FF threat, would not anything that he does be considered a threat?

And I guess Sue will just be standing there while he tries to zorch her?

And if Superman gives off ambient solar heat...uh oh, wooks wike twouble ~

And hold on. Superman has never been the type to run into a fight guns blazing, ever. Trying to make a thread with him as such is akin to saying Batman will fight to the death when you know that is something that he does not do.

And here is the quote that I was referencing, from Dan Jurgens (re: Thor vs. Superman):

"After numerous e-mails from friends pointing to a minor firestorm of sorts regarding my comments relating to the power levels of Thor and Superman, I thought some clarity might help.

Yes, in the exchange, I was asked if Superman was a million times more powerful than Thor. I said yes.

I also chuckled as I said it, a very important part of the response that did not translate into print. I don't blame Rich as he gave me the chance to edit the interview. Quite frankly, it never occurred to me that anyone would seriously think that statement was an accurate representation of my belief on the matter.

So... we screwed up.

Superman is NOT a million times more powerful than Thor. In my book, he is probably not even twice as powerful as Thor. Superman has more expansive powers than Thor, IMO, thanks to his vision powers, etc.

I also think they fight quite differently. Thor tends to be more of a brawny reactionary type, >>>>>>while Superman probably fights with a more strategic approach.<<<<<<<< Thor is more likely to cut loose with the full measure of his powers as he does not have the "dampers" on that power that Superman was raised with. Both qualities can be an advantage or disadvantage, depending on the circumstances.

If they fought ten times, neither would win all ten, or even seven, eight or nine battles, for that matter. Not anymore than the Miami Dolphins would beat the Jets ten games out of ten.

I apologize for any confusion.

DJ"

Arrows indicating Superman always approaching a battle strategically. That is why I scoff at those who say Superman will just fly in and pummel someone to death. He does not do it.

I wonder how fast a cosmic radiated elastic super genius thinks?

Do we agree this battle takes place with both foes in line of site with a start point? Would each combatant have a few seconds to size up the opponent before the bell? That would be a big factor.

Well, first I assume he would attack Sue first because he knows her powers will give him perhaps the most trouble. Second, hey, I understand that Superman doesn't go blazing into a fight. But look at it this way, if Superman uses strategy (as you said and i agree he does) he'll realize that the best strategy and perhaps the only one that will work in this scenario IS to blitz his opponents.

So they go into the fight knowing the full extent of eachother's powers? Reed knows Supes abilities going into the fight?

Well, if you think about it, neither side should know anything about the other, since theyre from different universes.

If that is the case then the FF go down. But if Reed knows about his Kryptonite weakness that changes things. The hard part is for Reed to actually get his hands on some. Oh my bad let me guess hell contact the Surfer and have him wip up a batch real quick.

Lol. Well the guy that started the thread said no Kryptonite allowed.

I don't know, since these characters don't know of eachother (right?) than Superman doesn't know what any of the Four's powers are and vice versa, so they wouldn't be able to play to weaknesses really. And it's right what Never has been saying that Superman has never been the type to simply rush his opponents. But does that mean he's not capable of doing so or is simply not going to do so? I believe he is capable. Than all he has to do is, well, do it. Aren't we suppose to assume that everyone is going to do every possible thing within their power to defeat their opponent? Thinking faster, reacting faster, and moving faster are all things reasonably within Superman's capabilities. I know that Supe's comic book history would speak contrary to that, so if anyone chooses not to even consider this arguement, eh, nothing I can do.

One point which I'm not sure was brought up or not (it
may be nothing anyhow), but from what I remember of
the FF comics, Sue's shield seems to require a great deal
of effort on her part to maintain, specifically against
strong attacks. If so, how many Superman punches can
her stamina really stand?
Further, since Superman can easily kill any of the other
three members, how will she be able to protect them all?


I'd like to point out the likely scenario:

1-Superman arrives flying, the Thing (as usual) attacks
first. Superman knocks him a few dozen miles away with
one punch.
2-The Torch then attacks second (also as is often the case)
Superman hesitates for a second, not knowing of the
extent of Torch's powers. A few seconds later, knocks
him out with one slap.
3-Sue, witnessing Superman's great powers, puts up a
shield around herself and Reed.
4-Superman attacks shield, punches at it again and again
until shield collapses, along with an exhausted Sue.
5-Reed tries to stretch and wrap around Superman, but is
easily knocked out or even torn apart.
6-Superman wacks barely-conscious Sue (after copping a
feel).
7-The End.

1., no, only large constructs put her under tremendous strain.

2., as soon as Superman waltzes in, Sue pops two force bubbles in his lungs and inflates them. She does not need to know anything about his super powers to do that.

No need for 3 - 7.

Sue force fields are not as stong as people think , hulk broke it really quickly. And sups can do the same thing and remember superman body is harder than stell even he puts the bubble inside him he will be quick enough to finish sue.

As for the rest sups is stonger than Thing so his outclass , Torch nothing really he can do to harm sups , and Mr.fantastic well he won't be able to hold him off.

Remember that super Skrull(he had all there power)
beated all of them pretty easy if he can do it sups can do it faster.

Quote the issue in which Hulk broke The Invisible Woman's forcefields? Not The Invisible Girl (who had far less control).

in the FF show he broke her forcefield Watch "nightmare in Green" hulk takes out the whole FF4 by himself and don't say Cartoon don't count it's made by marvel so it's just comic which gets animated.

I don't remember even in comic her forcefield has been broken by stonger power. If someone can give "Never" refence please do so because i don't want to search for references.

No, cartoons do not count.

I doubt Superman is just going to "waltz in" if he takes this battle at all seriously. And is their any evidence to support that Superman is vulnerable to such an attack?

I have a few questions: What are the boundaries for this battle? How long can Sue keep up a force field? How close would she have to be to attack Superman?

Here's a possible scenario. The fight starts, Sue puts up her field, Superman flies in, takes out Thing, Mr. Fantastic and Torch (he could do this very fast and very easy). Sue (if she was even able to SEE this) might be able to get a field into Supes lungs. Supes feels this, flys off into space. Waits for Sue's shield to go down, takes her out. Im a little rushed or i would try to say more.

Earlier... I didn't mean that the force fields are soundproof themselves...just that if she mabye layered them they could be used to stop Supes from hearing...


As for him attacking sue first... I really don't see him going after the woman first. But besides that, Ben would be the biggest target, and looks like he would be the strong guy on the team so I think Supes would go for him first and let him take the first shot (as he usually does) to test his strength.... and on top of that Ben is pretty much gonna be the one to start things off.

Several fights wherein Superman took the fight seriously and "waltzed" in, as is typical:

Vs. The Shaggy Man, Grant Morrison run
Vs. Batman, Dark Knight Returns
Vs. Doomsday
Vs. Prometheus
Vs. the White Martians, JLA #2
Vs. Ra's Al Ghul, Tower of Babel story arc, Mark Waid run
Vs. Gog, Kingdom Come
Vs. Brainiac, Dark Knight Strikes Back.
Vs. Hulk, Marvel vs. DC
Vs. Thor, JLA vs. Avengers
Vs. Terminus, JLA vs. Avengers.

How much evidence do we have of Superman simply "going all out?" I know Superman has killed precisely...argh, 3 times is it? Doomsday, Zod, and I am forgetting one.

This is 3 times. Out of what, hundreds of battles? The writer, Dan Jurgens, even supports this.

So yes, the ODDS are that he WILL fly in (walk, whatever), fold his arms, and check them out first. He almost always does this. He's not Orion. He's not Thor. He's not Mindless Hulk.

Am Sue can keep up a forcefield long enough to knock him out. Place the bubbles/constructs in his lungs, brain, liver, wherever. And yes, althought it supports my position, even they have zero prior knowledge of one another, odds are he either settles on The Thing first (assuming he even attacks first. why are we assuming this when that is not his character?), or The Human Torch.

When has Superman ever flown off into space to avoid a battle? And I ask simply because that's so not even his character.

"Flies in and takes out The Thing, Mr. Fantastic, and The Human Torch?"

Can anyone please show me ONE battle where Superman has ever sped through three foes and defeated them via speed alone? Question then. Why is it that, when he was face to face with Prometheus -- he didn't just "speed blitz" him and knock him out? Or against any of the white martians? Or against Ra's Al Ghul? Or against Lex Luthor when he had The Philosopher's Stone (Rock of Ages story arc)? Or against Wonder Woman when she beat him? Or against Captain Marvel in Kingdom Come? Or against Captain Marvel in JLA 1,000,000? Or against Batman in Dark Knight Returns OR Dark Knight Strikes Back? Or against Doomsday?

That's like saying "well Wolverine can just automatically go berzerk and beat Spiderman" in the other thread. He doesn't do it!

Is there evidence that Superman is vulnerable to what kind of attack? He bleeds. He dies. He has been knocked out. That's plenty of evidence.

For the Superman's forcefield question, Didn't Sue once broke an Celestial's forcefield? I think that shows how powerful she is.

this argument seems kind of pointless to me...but considering how shallow and simple a character that Superman is, the FF would probably beat him just like they beat any other characters of virtually unlimited power that were far stronger than Superman. Additionally, saying Superman could run through and kill 3 out of 4 memebers of the FF in a single sweep is one of the most ignorant things ive ever heard. shame on u.

I think the FF can beat him, but they are not allowed to make mistakes. One mistake, and they go down.

Does Sue always use her force fields to kill people? Does she always assume she's going to need it and automatically put it up? If we're suppose to assume that Superman is not going to do everything in his power to win, than we should assume the FF won't either either.

Well if Superman starts taking out members of the FF badly, surely she'll reciprocate.

It's more or less obvious he will leave her alone, for a few reasons. Thing would be the obvious target, maybe Torch. He isn't going to know of Sue's capabilities in order to think of quickly removing her.

ALL this comes down to one question: Can Sue put such
a force field inside Superman, or no?
If no, then Superman wins easily.
If yes, then that still brings up whether she would do it
or not, since she doesn't do it against every single villain
that the FF face (and presumably all these villains want to
kill the FF, even if the FF don't share that sentiment).
And if she decided to use it, how can we be sure she'll
do so in time?

Bottom line for me: Both sides are told (before meeting)
that they have to fight to kill. In that case, Superman
flies in frying all with his eye beams, and if Sue survives
this initial blast with her shield, then Superman just
keeps attacking with eye-beam and punches until shield
goes down, and Sue collapses from the psyonic backlash,
and is killed.

If they are all told to just do whatever it takes to win,
with killing being an open option, then the fight will
proceed as I had out-lined in my previous post.


Also, why do so many people underestimate Superman's
strength? I happen to be one of those who believes that
he is many many times stronger than the Hulk (for God's
sakes the man lifts 20-30,000 ton ships with one hand!),
so he can kill the three FF men quickly and easily. And
probably can punch down Sue's shield with a few strong
punches (the fact that her shield survived Hulk-level
punches means nothing, because she's never faced
Superman-level physical attacks before).

Besides, the FF are way over-rated. No way such a
small limited team can survive the type of villains that
the X-Men or Avengers face, without Reed's brains that is.

Good points there. But If I was Superman facing the FF and saw a orange rock dude and a flamer looking dude I would definatelly keep my eye on a blue eyed blonde. It would seem out of proportion if you ask me. Its usually the one that seems out of place is the one you have to watch out for.

Heat vision wouldn't hurt Johnny Storm, and Reed could absorb the impact of most of Superman's blows.

True, Heat vision will not hurt Johnny but he is no threat to Superman in any way and neither is Thing. Reed could maybe absorb a punch or two but his heat vision would melt him into a pile of monkey crap.

Lol, yeah. Sue's their only hope. Call the Four! Fantastic Four!

HEY! How's Superman going to see Sue? She's invisible!

He can hear her. When he kicked Super Skrulls @ss he was invisble but Superman could hear him coming and laid the smack down on his @ss.

did someone say the FF cant handle x-men level villains? there is clearly an ignorance issue here. first off, throw out the idea that superman's physical strength would be of any advantage: depending on their respective universes, Both Supes and Thing are in the upper levels of physical strength...yes supes can lift up entire ships with one hand...u have just proved my point. A ship cannot be held up at a single point by pure strength alone, it would require some kind of telekenesis like that employed by Gladiator. If superman were in marvel they would account for that and either make his powers telekenetic or have the ship fall and rip apart in his hands. As far as physical strength is concerned, Hulk has lifted 150 billion tons on his own, far outclassing superman, for the ignorant superman fans who say superman's strength is beyond the Hulks. Thing has held his own against the Hulk on numerous occasions. He is always outmatched on paper, but he is stronger and tougher than anyone thinks. Thats why he has gone against the Silver Surfer, Occulus, the Destroyer, the Champion, all of these guys would hand Superman his head! and as for FF villains? the FF have fought Galactus, the Dreaming Celestial, Exitar the Celestial, Ego the Living Planet, the Obliterator, Terminus, Aron the Watcher, Abraxas,etc...notibly powerful x-men villains? Juggernaut, Magneto, Apocalypse, the Brood, etc...the only X-men villain that is anywhere near the power of FF's is Dark Phoenix.

So in summation, considering the FF fight vastly more powerful characters than Superman on a regular basis, they just beat Galactus again this month...Im pretty sure they can beat really strong guy with heat vision and a superhero complex.

Did you just try to say that Thing could handle Superman. It sounded that way.

I don't think he's saying that, but he is proving a valid point. Much of superman's "strength" isn't strength at all.

I agree with most people in that Supes isn't gonna stroll in, see Sue and think "My...my GOD! She's gotta be powerful!" then start attacking her. The ones he WOULD attack could give him an easy run for his money anyway.

-AC

If you read closely I think that is exactly what he was implying. He was saying that Thing fought these guys and they would hand Superman his head. Well if thats the case Superman beat Hulk and Thor rather easily. Gladiator got beat by Hulk but Gladiator stalemated Silver Surfer. Thor Beat Silver Surfer. Do the math here.

"Gladiator stalemated Silver Surfer" when was this?

Who would give him a run for his money?

According to Wynndar Thing

this fight might as well be sue v supes...

torch cant hurt supes... i doubt even his nova could seriously injure superman...

reed is f*cked...

the thing? come on... supes'd bitchslap him all over the place (no disrespect), but i do think thing is being given slightly too much credit... he'd last longer than torch or reed but seriously...

then it comes down to sue...

i'm not sure if she can create a bubble inside his body, if so then maybe, but i'm goin with supes on this one...

Superman wouldn't see sue, He might hear her, but not before she puts one of those forcefields into play.

Why couldn't she put a forcefield inside of him? Block a major artery in his brain? Superman has a coronary! Oh No!

im just not sure she can do that...

ive read in several places that his body is surrounded by an aura or forcefield that is powered by the solar energy he absorbs...

if sue can penetrate that, then she has him, but im not so sure she can...

She wouldn't have to send the forcefield into him, she could just sorta "materialize" them inside of him... I think.

but even if she did...

are his insides vulnerable?

Ya cause venom beat him up that way

To Wynndar,

Superman is from DC, and in DC he can lift a ship with one
hand without any telekinetic powers, why have him go by
Marvel rules?

And come to think of it, the same thing happens in Marvel
as well. You have characters lifting/pushing/pulling things that
would normally break in pieces under the stress, or simply
press the character down into the ground by the weight, yet
that is never explained by telekineses. So if both Marvel and
DC suspend this logic, then why bring it up with Superman?

And where in God's name did the Hulk ever lift 150 billion
tons? Don't tell me you're getting that from that stupid
mountain incident from Secret Wars I? First of all, he
never "lifted" the mountain, he merely balanced a certain key
focal point of it to give himself and his colleagues some room.
Secondly, the whole episode is ridiculous (as other aspects
of the series), and apparently even Marvel thought so,
since such an incident never came up again. If the Hulk
can indeed lift even 1 billion tons, he would be able to kill
anyone, including Silver Surfer, with one finger.

And the Hulk is only slightly stronger than the Thing (that's
why the latter is able to hold his own), while Superman is far
beyond either of them.

And as for my comments on the FF handling X-Men or
Avengers level villains, if you re-read my post you would see
that I prefaced that comment by saying that the FF were
"over-rated". That no way such a small group with such
limited powers can beat X-Men or Avengers level villains
(minus Reed inventing some fancy device ofcourse). They
obviously DO beat such opponents, since they are heroes who
must always win in the end, but looking at it rationally, they
shouldn't.

"Superhero complex"? Superman?! Are you aware that
Superman IS the original hero? How can the originator have
a "superhero complex"?

Finally, by now Galactus getting beat has become routine.
He was even beaten by Alpha Flight. He's become the
cosmic-powered version of Wolverine, popping up everywhere
to boost sales. Thus, what was once one of the greatest, most
powerful, and most mysterious character ever created in comic
book history, has now become just a marketing device, and
a joke.

Bottom line, Superman kills FF in minutes. I stand by it!

Standing by it doesn't make it anymore true.

Venom battering Superman was slightly ridiculous.

-AC

no....actually when a marvel character lifts something so impossibly heavy, it is explained by TK, or tech, or mystical energy etc...such as when Gladiator lifted the baxter building from its foundation. And saying the Thing is only slightly weaker than the Hulk is pretty naive. But fine...Even though Thanos respects the strength of the Hulk and has avoided a him in physical combat...a relatively weak Thing fought Thanos twice, badly losing in both instances...He held his own against Champion (far more powerful than Superman), Occulus (more powerful than the silver surfer surfer at the time), the Destroyer, Thor, etc...Although I think Superman would beat the Thing, based on the Thing's resume, he wouldnt just roll over and die from one superman punch like some ignorant people r illustrating...so with the whole FF there, this doesnt even sound like a match...The FF would easily neutralize Superman...Period.

The Champion isn't stronger than Superman.

Someone who can lift tens of thousands of tons with one hand or
shatter giant asteroid, can easily kill the Thing with one punch.

I don't like bringing them up, but here goes: Look at the old
cross-over (can't remember the title), where a mind-controlled,
and angry, Hulk punched and punched at Superman, with the
latter just standing there unmoved. Or when Superman shattered
adamantium, something no Marvel earth character can possibly
do.
Or about the other cross-over, where Spider-Man goes flying
back simply by the air-pressure of Superman's flying fist (he
held the punch back at the last moment).

True cross-overs may not count with many people, but in those
particular cases, the writers had a good idea of Superman's
strength.

Superman will murder the thing, there is no qestion about it. His Stonger than him , Superfast , heat vision , etc.

Superman is build to be SUPERman no way he can hurt superman.

Here is how a well writen comic will go.

Superman meets FF4 (they have to fight no holding back)

If superman man wants to kill nothing will stop him

The thing will punch him , superman won't even move. Then gives him an upercut (thing is in the air) use heat vision to Fry him.
While the human torch throw fire , it was no effect what so ever , then he takes the rest of the FF4.

The only way i see FF4 winning if the comic is written badly. Like the thing actually giving sups a fight, thing should be like roach but in a crossover iam pretty sure thing will be giving sups punches(which is not realistic)

or mr.Fantistic makes some sort of tool to drain superman.(which is very likly that mr.fantastic can) but with no pre time they can't to shit.

Highly debatable. Superman is not stronger than Thor.



Sue will put someone down and HARD; in addition, and she ALWAYS uses her force constructs in a plethora of ways whereas Superman NEVER speed blitzes an opponent. Big difference.

Superman has shown us that he has stamina, endurance and durability problems.

Granted he's not fighting Doomsday but at least with Doomsday all he had to fear was being attacked. Not tricked, outsmarted AND attacked.

-AC

Also highly debateable.

not really Thor is stronger.

Depends on witch Superman but the majarity of them could win.

Not at all. Ask Mark Waid.

As a matter of fact, ask Dan Jurgens also...or any writer than has written both characters.

They are right about equal in terms of strength.

The Hulk is stronger than both.

and ask me too.

Superman=Thor<<<HULK

Thing can fight them all...not saying he would win...but he can engage just about any strong guy...considering he has fought Champion, who is stronger than Superman, the Destroyer, Hulk and Thor, he would be a factor in a fight between superman and the FF.

Superman beats Hulk as easily as Hulk beats Thing. Ben is a non factor in this fight and so is Johnny.

Amen brutha.

Champion of the Universe WITH his power gem is way stronger than Superman. Without it? well... She Hulk beat him down. She- Hulk.

Mind you, She Hulk is stronger than Thing.

Juggernaut74 is correct. There isn't much Ben can do to Superman. Johnny is almost as fast as Superman in flightspeed (Orital velocity, 69,000mph.) But I don't know if the novablast would affect Superman too much.

Arrgghh....lets not make this another pointless Hulk vs Superman argument...Superman has limits to his strength PERIOD, Hulk doesnt.

When and in what book did Superman shatter adamantium?

See, this is where we disagree. I am willing to admit that Superman does not commonly use his speed in battles. For you, it ends there, and you say that he will never use it, which is a fine assumption and has tons of support. On the other hand, when I think of Superman fighting "all out" I consider every ability he has to be fair game, including his speed. In my opinion, Superman's speed would be his most powerful asset if he ever used it in a battle (but then it would raise the question "why have the Flash?" who's ONLY power is his speed, yet he's only a little faster than Supes). I'm too stubborn to admit that if Superman were trying his hardest outside of a comic book storyline he wouldn't use his speed. Like when he faced Doomsday. No matter how strong Superman could be, he was going to lose that fight because that's what DC wanted. Showing Superman win fight after fight with his speed would take away from his many other attributes and he would lose depth as a superhero.

I doubt that this difference of opinion is going to be resolved, no matter what either of us or anyone else says. So how about if you had it your way, the Fantastic Four would win, and if I had it my way, Superman would (Bare in mind that this was not supposed to be a fanboy-ish statement, just a hopeful conclusion to an argument that could go on forever).

Ok Hulk can't beat Superman that is just dumb. Hulk gets stronger the more rage he gets... but you cant just keep getting more angry and angry... everyone has a limit. But Superman did beat the Hulk, even gave the Hulk first Swing right before the Amalgam Series. Superman would try and find a way out of fighting but if it is something where he has no choice (like the destruction of the DC Universe), he knocked Hulk out. Did you also forget that the Hulk is no longer a mindless beast? Also notice when it was DC vs Marvel and they sent the most powerful superheroes from both Universes to fight... No Fantastic Four.

Ok so everyone keeps saying how the Invisible Woman could put a forcefield inside of him and explode hius lungs. Well first, Superman is invulnerable, inside and out. Second he can take a single breath and last in space for weeks. He did that before. She could put him in a force field of some kind but if he hits it hard enough it will stun her for a minute and then he can go finish her. Mr. Fantastic... please. The more stretchy he gets the more vulnerable he is. Also Superman is invulnerable to fire... so Human Torch is out of the question. The Thing... seriously. He is strong but in the FF comics it actually says he has the strength of an elephant. Superman would end up just retileing his pool with the Thing.

About the FF beating Galactus... they were helped by that one observer that has his base on the moon... I cant remember his name.

hahaha...oh man...i can really see that this guy knows his comics!!!...

Fantastic Four win.

One: show us any instance where Superman has ever speed-blitzed an opponent. How about a month's time?

Two: you act as if Superman has never battled an opponent without The Flash and The JLA around.

How faulty an argument is this? "Although Superman has NEVER speed-blitzed an opponent when going "all out" (and he has KILLED several times before and has gone "all out" in several other occasions and did not kill), for SOME reason if he goes "all out" against the FF he will use his super speed."

Yeah, right.



Why I bother addressing cats who obviously know little to nothing about comics is beyond me...but what the hell.

One, Superman is not invulnerable "inside and out." Duh. If he was invulnerable Doomsday would not have killed him; Captain Marvel would not have knocked him out; etc etc.

Two, yes, the constructs in his lungs would work. Think he'd survive if she BURST his lungs? Oh wait; that's right, Superman can live without lungs...

No, Superman never beat The Hulk in a "legit" battle because they've never HAD one.

Four, Mr. Fantastic does not get more vulnerable the more "stretchy" he gets.

Five, Superman is not invulnerable to fire. This is NOT PC Superman who flew through stars.

Get it right.

When has Superman needed to speed blitz an opponent to beat him or them?

Uh DOOMSDAY? The SHAGGY MAN? Other assorted cosmic level threats? How about when Prometheus had defeated the JLA save Superman and told Superman that, to save the satellite in orbit, he wanted Superman to kill himself? WHY didn't Superman fly over there and knock him out before he could react?

Do you/have you read The JLA? If you did, guess you would not have had to ask that.

I was trying to prove a point. What are you arguing about? Superman would probably use his Speed going up against four opponents.

You failed. LoL, he's FOUGHT four opponents before and didn't use his speed.

He fought the white martians in JLA #2. He fought General Eiling's crew (an aqua type guy; a superstrong one; one with these interrupter discs; and a female that operated in 4 dimensions) and didn't use his super speed not once.

HE DOESN'T USE IT.

Next?

your saying that your 100% sure he will not used his super speed? Wow your a genius.

Ok... first I might have gotten it wrong about Mr. Fantastic being more vulnerable the more he is stretched... I will find out where I read that and post it.

But as far as everything you are tlaking about? Seriously... Like Superman is not invulnerable inside and out? Yea Doomsday stopped Superman but how many times has Dr. Doom beat the FF? Last I checked... Doomsday is more powerful than Dr. Doom.

Also... the whole thing where the Invisible Woman puts force fields in Superman's lungs, that might have worked on Wolverine but not on Superman. Someone who has flown through space... through black holes... I am pretty sure flying through a black hole is just a little worse than having Invisible Woman putting him in a bubble. Your post was just ignorant... like Superman is not invulnerable to fire? Hes been blown up by nuclear weapons before... later on he ends up residing in the Sun. But you are probably right, a campfire would probably kill him.

The vulgarity really isn't called for.

A force feild in the lungs won't affect Superman, he can hold his breath for quite some time. How about a force feild in the heart?

Human Torch can release the concentrated heat of a supernova in a blast (far hotter than any star). Can Superman withstand that?

Well he does have good points about the balls on the chin part. Thats another story though. How do you know a supernova blast is that hot? Even if it is I dont think It would affect Superman. That would go against anything the character has ever stood for.

I know my physics; Supernovas are much hotter than normal stars. Check any physics or natural science book.

The only reason Superman isn't hurt by the sun is because he can absorb all of its radiant energy. I know that any form of radiation that can damage Superman without powering his biomatrix will have full affect on him, (e.g. kryptonite, lasers, or any other form of non-solar radiation.) Any energy borne of the sun will not affect Superman. However, I am unsure whether or not heat can damage him. Does anyone have any examples of heat damaging Superman?

Jason8200, quit with the language.

doomsday more powerful than doom? last time i checked doom was a regular human being...he doesnt regularly beat people using his phenomenal human powers hehehe...Doom is much more of a threat than a guy whose powers r brute strength and durability...

*sigh*. Did I ever say that there was evidence to support Superman speed-blitzing an opponent? Did I? I am simply of the opinion that since Superman is capable of super speed, there is no reason why he would'nt be able to use it in a battle. I realize that my opinion is going against comic book history, so you know what, fine, you win. I guess from now on I should assume that if I haven't seen a superhero do something in a comic book, they can't do it. So I'm guessing Supes can't play checkers or throw a baseball or eat spaghetti.

By the way, you're arguing against an OPINION. I stopped truly making arguments on this thread a while back. I tried to make that clear in my last post but I guess I need to spell it out some more.