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That it wasnt anywhere near as good as the first two films and did not have the same magic that the first two films in the original trilogy did? I know Mechmoggy does.I was wondering how many others here agree with me on that? The first two films I have seen at least over 60 times each.Guess how many times I saw Return of the jedi? Once and that was enough.Thats how much I hated it.

You are a whiny little man Mr. Parker.

J/K

I disagree. I thought that Return of the Jedi was better than A New hope

When I was younger, i used to like ROTJ best, because of the special effects, and luke is much cooler and more powerful in ep6.
However, now I like the first 2 movies better than ep6, as I can appreciate them more than I could when I was younger.
ESB is my favourate film of all time. The "i am your father" line must be one of the biggest plot twists in any major film ever.

Jedi is still my favourite of the trilogy, although Empire is growing on me. The confrontation between Luke, Vader and the Emperor is brilliant.

I was born in '81 and saw Jedi before the other two, and I actually thought that when Luke cut off Vader's hand that it had suddenly become Luke's hand. That scared seven shades of shite out of me.

I disagree. ROTJ is the best one yet. It gives you Vader and Palpitine Vs Luke (And in a way Anakin as well)

It gives you the most emotional duel yet (untill EpIII comes out)

It gives you a huge battle and an incompleted Death Star - Which is the biggest space battle yet (untill EpIII comes out)

Also gives you a very nice ending.

What more could you want?

It gives you liddle, iddy, biddy, cuddly, wuddly Ewoks helping bring the downfall of the Empire, it was by far the worst of the OT, ESB is numbero uno and then ANH - IMHO

Yeah true about the Ewoks....(Shudder)
But it helps to see them as a cannon-fodder distraction while the rebels did the real work there....They had the added bonus of seeing many a fuzzy little git blown away while they worked...!!
That had to have the job easier in itself.....
It certainly would've keep my morale up....

Im in total agreement with you Corran.The thing that I thought was so incredibly stupid about return of the jedi is how they decided to have Luke and leia become brothers and sisters. talk about incense among the family.

It's the worst of all of them.

ESB was originally the mid-point of a nine-film saga. Then GL decided to cut out the last three, and ESB had suddenly become the penultimate film of merely six, and its open ending did NOT suit a transition into a finale where, staggeringly strangley seeing that the Empire is at full pelt at ESB, by the end of the film the Empire is apparently desttroyed.

The start with Jabba's palace- fine. The final Luke.Vader confrontation? Fine- but the Palace bit was inevitable, and the Luke bit would have been there at the end of the original Episode IX anyway.

Everything else is a shambles. The Solo/Leia romance totally falls apart; the magic is gone and Solo has a poor role in the film. Leia is bumped up to being Luke's sister, almost as a convenience as she was the only female now available to do so. The originally planned Wookie fight becomes an Ewok fight, and utterly crass it is too, GL's attempt to make a Vietnam allegory ruined by the sheer cretinous feleing of the situation (GL muchly improves the situation in TPM, whee the plucky underdog Gungans are actually losing the battle) as the apparently unstoppable Empire is beaten by a tribe of teddy bears.

Likewise, for some reason, the entire Imperial fleet cannot seem to overwhelm the Rebels, which makes me wonder why theny ever evacuated from Hoth; in early films it is VERY clear that the Rebels, whilst well-equipped, are far too small for grand battle. ROTJ makes it look like that they should have just attacked the Imperial fleet from the start; looks like they would have won.

And finally, the continuous plot changes and script re-writes destroyed the ending., The ending is MEANT to be that Luke convinces Anakin to kill the Emperor, Balance is restored and the good guys win.

But they forgot to show the change that killing the Emperor meant

Because Luke was totally irrelevant to final victory- the Rebels won that battle anyway, and both Vader and the Emperor would have died. From the events presented by the film, all Luke did was go to Endor, get captured, and then escape. Without any other consequence to his actions in the grander scheme of things, that plot was a TOTAL waste of time; he may as well have just not gone. Ok, he got to see his Dad, but so what? He was on a quest to defeat evil, not visit relatives.

In many early plot versions killing the Emperor is clearly shown as the catalyst of victory. This is not so in the final version- it simply got forgotten in the excitement of it all, especially when the Emperor was moved from the Imperial homeworld to the new Death Star (the Death Star itself, btw, is another example of ROTJ's failing- simply re-using a plot point like that. It's not as if this was a tv series of 200 episodes; there had only been two films and surely something else could have been thought of).

Oh, I know people SPECULATE that if the Emperor had not died, this would have happened and that would have happened and so the Rebels would have lost. But:

a. We shouldn't have to SPECULATE on something so important- it should have been told to or shown to us, directly, on-screen. Killing the Emperor should have been directly shown to make a difference.

b. Nearly all these theories assign powers to the Emperor that we have no evidence for. It seems clear to me that considerably before his death by Vader's hands, his plan had already failed, the Rebels were going to win, and he would have died.

This major flaw destroys the central plot of the whole enterprise.

The dialogue is poorer, the plot is improvised, the main interesting relationship of the trilogy is diminished, and the central plot arc trips over itself. ROTJ is beset by massive problems that make the problems of TPM and AOTC look small fry, by a long margin.

I assume when you worst of them all that you mean every star wars film made then right? sadly I agree.

as I said before,it just did NOT have the same magic that its two predecessors did.Even Irvin Kirchner who directed Empire strikes back said himself he was very disappointed with Jedi.I cant help but laugh over the people who voted on that one poll that return of the jedi was the best star wars movie.its so laughable the way the film was written its pathetic.the first two films had great scripts,Jedi was laughable.Like you said the dialogue was terrible unlike the first two films.That whole bit at the beginning when c3po was explaining that people who fell into the pit would be devoured and slowly digested for a thousand years? god what horrible screen writing and dialogue.are peoples life spans in the star wars galaxy's all of a sudden a thousand years now?

It sucked from the beginning to the end.With princess Leia all dressed up in a slave outfit at the beginning to the very end with Darth Vader and Ben Kenobi standing around having a jolly old good time at the end,At that point Anakin should have said something to ben like-Hey Ben remember that time I killed you? because the movie was a joke.The first 30 minutes it started off promising enough that is without that whole thousand year digested scene because it had a lot of action,but it went downhill from there because like you said,they reduced Luke to becoming Leia's brother-how moronic,the acting was horrible and you could tell they were tired of the whole bit because they did not put any passion into it like they did the first two.terrible dialogue as already pointed out and I mean he already had fought darth vader in EMPIRE STRIKES BACK so that was nothing new,been there done that,then the battle at the death star-say hadn't we seen that before in the first film? no originality at all.horrible way to end the whole thing.

I also agree that it makes the problems in TPM and AOTC look like small fry as well.

Yeah, I agree with Ush, you just need to read between the lines of what I posted to see that I meant the same as what he posted.

I hear you Ush, and agree with many points you made there,
But it doesn't look to me like the Rebels had totally murdered the Empire over Endor or anything, it looked fairly near the bone to me.....
Unlike on Hoth as you correctly say....But then the rebels were too few and didn't have enough backup from the other species/inhabitants of the galaxy they all looked human and look like they had a united solid force there like they appeared to in ROTJ...
And the Endor-victory seems like it was only achieved by a massive gathering of pretty much everyone/everything that the rebels seemed to have who fought with the desperation of knowing that if that gamble didn't pay off then it was Doom for the whole rebellion..... sure, the Executor got destroyed, the Death Star got totalled eventually, but look at how few Rebel ships from that massive cohilition actually made it in the end..... And at least the destablisation of the Emipire was depicted at the end of the Special editions and DVD....
I Totally agree that the character development felt totally abandoned in regard to Han and Leia too.... Harrison Ford looked like he was taking the second half of the movie about as seriously as the Holiday Special..
Why was it that after finding out that Luke and Leia were Fanily and not having a relationship etc... Han and Leia's big kiss opportunity moment was like the sort of kiss that you would expect as a mild greeting from a friend or something... Outclassed by the snog that Luke and Leia had in ESB even....! puke No warmth at all........

Well, even if we, for the sake of theory, say you are right about the support for the Rebels, Sadako- no plot reason or indication for such a change was given on screen. Indeed, we were directly given to think that meeting the Imperial fleet would be doom for the Rebels- they only made the strike because they thought the fleet was scattered. Once the Death Star is destroyed, thhe battle seems to end, Why? Why do we imagine that the fleet would then just go away? Or even if we do accept that, why, again, do we have to speculate at ALL? This is not like the Matrix., Star Wars is simple, especially the OT. Things things should be made clear. The first two films were always clear, why not this one?

And it strikes me that the rebel ships there at the end of the battle... seem to be nearly all of the ones there at the start. We see Imperial ships destroyed, but only the Death Star destroys Rebel ones. The TIE fighters go from roughly evens with the X-Wings as they were in ANH, to being destroyed in their dozens.

And even if it WAS close... in the end, the rebels still won, without assistance from Luke, so the biggest problem of all remains. Luke should have been clearly shown as the person who made it possible. Else, what was his point at all?

After having rewatched the OT recently, I'd have to say ROTJ is by far my least favorite...and that's something because I was quite disappointed by TPM.

I think part of the problem with ROTJ was just the fact that it followed after ESB, which is by far the best. There are good bits in ROTJ (the Vader/Luke/Palpatine bits being the highlight of the movie IMO), but so much of it was utterly ridiculous. I mean, c'mon. Ewoks?! The Empire got their asses kicked by teddy bears with rocks and sticks!!! What the hell was THAT?! Han really didn't do anything most of the movie (which peeved me as he was the only of the good guys that didn't regularly irritate me), the whole Luke and Leia being siblings thing seemed tossed on as an afterthought, like "quick, we need another huge revelation...hmm...what now...oooh! Let's make two of them related! ", the fact that the Empire had been getting slaughtered by the rebels when in the other movies it was the other way around, with the rebels seemingly only getting away by sheer luck...and reusing the Death Star. They couldn't come up with anything else?! Please.

Yeah. ROTJ was, in general, a joke compared to the rest.

(end long ranty post)

Good points Ush....
Ackbar and the others and the fact that we'd never seen Mon Mothma and so many other characters before kind of sold the idea to me that this was much more of a multilateral attack than ever before...
But aside from that, yep, I'd agree that not much else was an indicator on the "Increased support" issue...

The side-on shots of the falcon and the fighters piling through the swarms of ties at the beginning of the assault ( Just after the pulling-up-from-the-still-active-shield bit ) made it look to me like the rebel (fighters at least) ships were out vastly numbered....

Damn good point about the post Deathstar destruction disappearance of the battle... My thoughts on this were that the order to scatter was given when the DS was being destroyed....because being on top of the imminent would've been disaster for all craft nearby.. I mean, Ackbar gave a similar order on screen...
But yep, whatever semi-eu explaination I could try to apply to it,
like you say, it definitely should've been explained WAY better/clearer than it actually was....

Indeed- the fact that the EU stumped up explanations for this is direct evidence that there was a gap.

I am pretty sure the Imperials were not so dumb to stay next to it when it blew- aside from which, they were specifically not next to it, were they? The fleet had been ordered to stand off, to prevent an escape.

One would HOPE the Imperials weren't that dumb...

For sure,SS....!

A strategic cowardly escape to hyperspace, then....?

I might even have believed that, were it not far more implicit that they could have destroyed the Rebels...

... and so comes the speculation again. At the end of the day, it was just loose storytelling from the film.

Agreed...!!

Yep...definitely should have handled the battle outcome better than just "Whee!!! We blew up the Death Star and the Emperor and Vader are dead!!! Yippee!!!"

Kinda of a anti-climactic ending, really...

you guys have some interesting arguements. But Jedi is still going to be my favorite until the new one comes out.

Actually, if Luke hadn't gone, Vader would not have turned right?

Luke saved Vader. Luke saved Anakin. That's why he was there. He was saving his father.

Not only that, but Luke pre-occupied The Emperor. The Emperor was so caught up with trying to turn Luke and bump off Vader that he was blind to the possibilities of what the Rebels could achieve. The light side was clouding HIS vision.

If Luke was not there, I'd bet my ass Vader and Emperor would be focussed on the Rebel Attack and would evacuate the station as soon as the shield generator went down.

I mean, the Rebel strike had a million to one chance of working. The Emperor saw it as a secondary task to turning Luke. If Luke wasn't there, the Emperor would have focussed all of his attention on the rebel strike. They'd be screwed.

That's MY take on the whole thing. Even when I was a kid I always assumed Luke was the Rebels "decoy" so that he would keep The Emperor and Vader busy while they attacked the Death Star.

True, it's all open to speculation, though.

I agree that some of the elements could have been tied up better. Just because the Death Star was destroyed (again) doesn't mean that the battle was over unless the Empire left like a bunch of sissy cowards. To me the biggest plot hole at the end was the Endor Armageddon. After the Death Star blew up the massive wreckage and debris should have rained down on the planet killing most of the ewoks and rebels. One might could argue that it all burned up when it entered the atmosphere (I might could buy some of that). Still!

But I disagree that Luke's impact was pointless. Certain events will play out in Episode III that might make this clearer. The clones will turn evil. I believe this is due to Palpatine controlling them somehow through the dark side of the force. If it is indeed revealed that Sidious controls all of his troopers, then confronting the Emperor would have been crucial in helping the rebels defeat the Empire. Sids would be distracted and due to his overconfidence he might not have been influencing his storm troopers as effectively. When Luke kills the Emperor it throws everything into chaos.

Also, it was clear that everyone was evacuating the Death Star at the end of ROTJ. The Emperor and Vader could have escaped much in the way Luke escapes with Vader's body right before the explosion. As overconfident as the Emperor was, I would hope he had learned his lesson from Death Star # 1 and would not repeat the mistake of Grand Moff Tarkin.

Also due to the prophecy of the chosen one, the rebels could not have achieved victory unless Anakin killed the Emperor first. This prophecy had to be fulfilled. If Anakin did not kill Sids right there, then the death star could not have blown up. The force had a much better way for Sids to meet his end.

For all we know Sidious could have used the force to make the Millenium Falcon and Wedge's X-Wing miss the reactor much the same way Luke used the force to make his shots meet his target in ANH.

I think than in general terms, its worse than star wars and empire strikes back, but i preffer it to phantom menace and atack of the clones.

So what if the Emperor had evacuated? As, apparently, the Rebels won that battle he couldn't have escaped.

"For all we know Sidious could have used the force to make the Millenium Falcon and Wedge's X-Wing miss the reactor much the same way Luke used the force to make his shots meet his target in ANH.

That dooms what you say as a counterargument. That does exactly what I criticised above- this is a HUGE piece of speculation, assuming powers we did not see.

Not only do I find that speculation improbable (though far more probable than the very weird idea that Sidious somehow helps control every trooper in the Galaxy), the very fact that you are having to speculate on it is the VERY PROBLEM.

Furthermore, you cannot say that something has to be so because of the Prophecy and that is it... because ROTJ has to stand on its own as well, and we didn't know of the Prophecy at this point. Besides which we all know it was MEANT to be that defeating the Emperor is the important point- GL said so enough times, before the new films were made. Point is, the film simply does not reflect this. The link should have been shown and made, not assumed- aside from anything else, it only CAN be assumed by people like us, die-hard fans with extensive knowledge, which is simply not good enough. Like I said, this isn't the Matrix.

"Luke saved Vader. Luke saved Anakin. That's why he was there. He was saving his father."

Spectacularly missing my point. Saving his father- WHY? The only dramatic purpose in saving Vader is so Vader can balance the Force. If this would have happened (i.e. Sidious dies) anyway, it has no dramatic point and Luke might as well not have gone.


If you look at the earlier drafts of ROTJ, destroying the Emperor has far more independant significance, But it got lost amongst all the plot changes- and they totally forgot to give it any visible significance in the film at all.

Everything anyone can possibly speculate about this issue is totally useless- it just demonstrates the problem. We should not have to speculate, we should know. It is a terrible piece of film design. The Emperor was made to seem totally irrelevant to events.

Well, I can safely say that I will not choose to speculate on anything at the risk of being sent a rather large reply by Ush.

I'd just like to say that I agree about Han. He went from being the badass mercenary in ANH, and even having his tough demeanor in ESB, to being the comic relief in ROTJ. It's like what LOTR did to Gimli, I hated it. And the Ewoks....*shudder* so much for the might of the Empire.

You know, we never do see many (if any) actual Rebel forces on Endor, we mainly just see Ewoks fighting. Aside from the Rebels captured after entering the shield generator bunker, the only Rebellion forces we see are Han, Leia, Chewbacca, and the droids. Where did everyone go?

Something else that bugged me was the celebration at the end. It looked so fake, no emotion at all. And Lando clapping....*shudder again* I really only liked the lightsaber duel, pretty much the only part of ROTJ I actually liked.

I agree with the fact that we should not have to assume some of these things. The general public will not do so and in turn will dislike the movie for some of these reasons. Then again the GP may not care as much as us die-hard fans.

I also disagree. Speculation is part of what makes Star Wars great. There were alot of things GL did not just come out and make abundantly clear in the originals that he is explaining now in the prequels. It was never made clear why Vader was more machine than man (except in EU) until now. Much of the public will be like, "Oh...Ohhhhhhh!" when that revelation is made. Everyone hails ESB as the greatest SW movie (I tend to agree), but if one wanted to they could pick apart different aspects of that movie as well. In some ways, I kind of fear that Lucas will take the opposite approach for Episode III and explain things overly, much like he did with the force and midichlorians in Episode I. I really hope that the whole force-afterlife issue does not turn into a pile of crap as I fear it will (Hayden in ROTJ).

I withhold complete outright criticism for some of these movies until the final movie comes out and we can really see the saga as a whole.

You know, now that you mention it, that whole thing with Lando clapping bothers me alot too!!

The prophecy means the force will be brought back into balance. Lucas said the Sith order creates the imbalance, by both Vader and Sidious dying, the force is brought back into balance.

Jedi would've been better if Han died, but that's about it.

I liked the Ewoks, but then I always like the underdogs.

The speeder-bike-thingy was cool too.

The point of Luke going to confront Vader is in the title of the film. Kenobi and Yoda both told him that he had to face Vader to become a Jedi. It showed the power of the light side and the ultimate redemption of Vader.

The Imperial fleet was under instruction merely to prevent the escape of the rebels so that the Emperor could build the anger in Luke and try to turn him. IMO, from the Emperor's view, the battle was as much about turning Luke as it was destroying the rebels.

He doesn't control them through the force, he orders them to turn on the Jedi and on the Republic. He is the Emperor, and they bow to his wishes. They're not programmed, but they're taught to obey orders. We'll definately be seeing a lot of this in ROTS. When Sidious dies, it does nothing to throw anything into chaos. He doesn't control them through the force, they're just obeying orders. And when he's killed, the command will go to the next in line, which basically are the Imperial Officers. And by that time, they all weren't from the same host, so everything's a bit mixed up anyway. They're loyal troops, not bound by the force.

Okay. Let's see if we can get this whole thing under wraps.

And let's think logically...speculation aside.

This goes along with what baracustastic said.

Everybody is assuming that the whole point was that the Emperor needed to be killed. That isn't it at all. It was first a rescue mission for Vader, and also a necessary trial for Luke. Luke went with the intention of saving Anakin, and becoming a Jedi...not to kill the Emperor. He told Leia that was his plan before he left. He was going to turn him "back...to the good side." He was very overconfident that he could do that too...and he was totally unprepared when Vader didn't turn to good.

Luke: "That was why you couldn't destroy me. That's why you won't bring me to your emperor now..."
Vader: ignites his saber
(Best scene in the whole trilogy IMO)

Yoda told him it was the last thing he needed to do to become a Jedi. At that point he became a Jedi.

Vader: "Your skills are now complete...INDEED you ARE powerful!"

He wanted Vader to join him and then together they would stand a chance against Palpatine. Vader did not join him of course.

So then it was no longer about Luke helping the rebels but Luke surviving the wrath of the Emperor and avoiding turning to the dark side. The Jedi were almost wiped out... Luke was the last Jedi left. That is why it is so significant. Not that the emperor had to be killed, but that the Jedi had to survive. Luke was cornered and in danger. At that point, he really couldn't do much to help the rebel cause except survive. The Emperor even taunted him about his friends that he couldn't help.

And this is emphasized when Luke tosses his lightsaber and says the Emperor has failed.

Luke: "I am a Jedi...like my father before me!"

Vader eventually stepped up, saved his son..and ultimately the Jedi order. Luke could then escape and continue the Jedi order with the happiness and closure that he saved his father who also saved him.

That's what it is all about!!

However, I do kind of dislike the whole force ghost thing at the end of ROTJ. Like someone said earlier, Anakin probably nudges Obi-Wan and says, "Hey...remember that time I killed you a couple of movies back..." And then Obi-Wan laughs and even Yoda gets in on the action like, "Heh. All the younglings, killed you did! Not very nice, that was!"

Luke: "Soon I'll be dead...and you with me!"

Luke was aware that if the rebels succeeded it would not matter if he defeated the Emperor or not. In fact he realized later that the only way he could do so was by turning to the dark side and he refused to do so.

Luke: "I am a Jedi...like my father before me!"

Mon Mothma even revealed earlier in the movie that the rebels planned to blow up the death star especially because the Emperor himself was going to be there overseeing things. Luke understood this. He did not originally plan to have to confront the Emperor. He wanted to save his father and keep him from being destroyed also.

P.S. I am sorry about the 3 posts in a row.

Well, yes, it is said in ROTJ that they were going after the Death Star because of the Emporer being there...but as was seen, people were evacuating the Death Star; Luke and Vader escaped this way. What's not to say that the Emporer couldn't have escaped? So defeating the Emporer WAS a very important bit. Just the significance of destroying the Emporer wasn't shown to be as big a deal as it really was.

"The prophecy means the force will be brought back into balance. Lucas said the Sith order creates the imbalance, by both Vader and Sidious dying, the force is brought back into balance."

Umm...not really...for one thing, I doubt Lucas had the prophecy in mind while making ROTJ (though I could be mistaken...it DID come out 3 years before I was even born, so someone please correct me if I'm mistaken), and like Ush said, it's supposed to be able to stand on it's own. And nowhere does it say that Vader had to die in order to bring the Force back into balance. By destroying the Emporer and turning back the light side he balanced the Force; had he not died the Force would have still been in balance.

"though far more probable than the very weird idea that Sidious somehow helps control every trooper in the Galaxy"

OMG...EU comes up with some pretty weird stuff, but that one just floored me with how ridiculous it was...

And slightly off-topic (but not really as it has to do with ROTJ)...but I am SO sick of hearing people say that Anakin's ghost at the end should be him as how he was before turning to Vader because "Anakin died when he turned to the Dark Side and became Vader!" Uh, DUH, didn't Vader turn back to the light side at the end of ROTJ before dying? That very fact blows that lame explanation out of the water...not to mention that he was STILL Anakin, dark side or no. Ghost Anakin at the end of ROTJ should not have been young Anakin. Damnit.

the comment, silver, is that "once you turn to the dark side, forever will it dominate your destiny" as yoda said...
but we all know the real reason

Gah! With respect, because a lot of what they say is not incorrect in of itself, Barcaustic and Darkyoda are magnificently missing the point. It is totally irrelevant how personally important what Luke did was. I am not dneying that it was personally important, and that this was well reflected. Those final scenes were very good. But unfortunately, their ultimate dramatic power was hamstrung. It was meant to be dramatically important. It was meant to tbe the conclusion of the plot of the films, not just another stage in Luke's development. The two are, in any case, inseperable.

Anakin is meant to be the only one who can defeat evil. Luke the only one who can get him to do it. The whole point of the entire saga is that evil will continue to triumph unless the Force is balanced by the Chosen One, and so without the intervention of the Chosen One, the Emperor cannot be killed, and the force not balanced.

So then we can ask the simple question- is this shown on film in ROTJ?

And the answer is... NO IT IS NOT!

Nothing even remotely like it is seen on film. The exact opposite is shown on film- that it is apparent that the Emperor would have died anyway. And all the speculation and theories and retro-continuity that you want to bring into it will not change this simple fact- that it was done wrong.



An odd point in this context. Speculation is great about things that should be being speculated about. NOT about things which are certain facts. Facts should not be being speculated at all- they are know. We don't speculate about what Han's name is, or about what shape the Death Star was.

Fact 1. The Emperor was meant to be only beatable by Anakin
Fact 2. This was not shown on film- we are given no direct indication to think that the Emperor would not have died anyway.

That kills speculation being something that stops this being a problem. You can make up any excuse you want- that does not stop this having been an error, to have not been shown on film. It should have been made abundantly clear.



We all know what that is about. It changes nothing because, as I say, they forgot to link the point dramatically into the story. In terms of the overall Star Wars story, Luke was meant to be there to save the Galaxy, not improve himself. That was the point, I say again, of the climax of the saga; with Anakin's story thrown in, the point of all six films; that point is rendered void by the failure to make it clear, on film, without dispute, that the Emperor would not have died had Vader not done what he did. That is the central point of the saga- that only Vader could have done this. It was simply not shown as such in ROTJ!



No! As I just said, it was about defeating evil- that was the PURPOSE of the Chosen One. That a highly personal journey from both Skywalkers is invovled in that is obvious- but that point still has to be dramatically linked into the plot and given purpose by means of Balancing the Force- which, as I point out, was what they MEANT to do, as seen in the early ROTJ versions- it just went wrong with all the plot changes made. You can say it was not meant to be about these things if you want... but you're wrong, they were intending for it to be just that.

If Luke had not gone, the Death Star had blown, and Vader and the Emperor had both died, might we not be justified in saying "Was there actually any point to Luke's story at all?" By extension, Anakin's story loses its power as well. If Luke going there does not change this final outcome, then it is exactly the same as if he had not gone! One of the major themes of the PT is that this is the story of the man who saved the Galaxy in ROTJ- why did he turn bad, and why did he turn good again? If he didn't save the Galaxy... the Saga loses its reason for existence! Therefore, personal importance or no, it is very, very important that the dramatic point of this scene is that Luke turns Vader back and Vader saves the Galaxy. It is obvious that there is far more wide-ranging importance to this scene than just more development of Luke- such development was only a means to an end anyway.



Total irrelevance! What Luke thought he was there to do or not do has nothing to do with the plot of that scene. Besides which, Luke is MEANT to be wrong- we know that only the Chosen One can destroy the Emperor at this point. That is canonical. Luke simply doesn't know this. A demonstration of why he was wrong- of why the Rebels could not succeed unless the Emperor was killed- should have been in there.

You cannot possibly be trying to make out that it is CORRECT that the Emperor would have died anyway without ignoring the other films. We all know that this is incorrect. The Emperor would not have died anyway. Everything we know tells us this... except ROTJ itself, which seems to indicate the exact opposite. It is an unintended contradiction, but a serious one.

-

All that is being said here is dancing around the main point. ROTJ failed to show that only Vader could have killed the Emperor. It clearly- very clearly- looks as if the Emperor would have died anyway. That is how it looks on screen, and nothing anyone says in that area will change that, and that was a big error, because it contradicts the central point of the saga.

You can say all you like about the 'point' of the scene being Luke's relationship with his father. That was part of the scene, and the final milestone in Luke's journey. But the point of the confrontation was the final defeat of Sidious. The Saga is meant to show how only Anakin could achieve this great deed and so save the Galaxy. At the end of the day, all this work, all this effort, all this characterisation... is cheapened by the apparent irrelevance of Luke and Anakin's efforts, as it is made to look like that that it actually made no great difference. This is a great shame, and it should not have been done in ROTJ- and worst of all, they meant to do it, that was how it was supposed to be, but it got muddled in the storytelling. They simply got it wrong- just as they got all the Imperial rank badges in that film wrong as well. No film spoils the saga more than that one.

A firm and well-spoken refutation of that very odd idea.

Perhaps in the 20th Super Duper Fantastic Ultra Edition of Return Of The Jedi, Lucas can insert a scene that shows a grey headed old man representing the force looking down on Luke getting electrocuted by Sidious' lightning. Then the man can wave a wand at Vader and laugh as Vader throws the Emperor down the shaft. Another man dressed in black looking even more evil than sidious that represents the dark side itself will come from the shadows and say, "Hey light side. That was a cheap shot you just took!" Then the light side man can chuckle and say, "You had your time!"

Then we see a dark cloud that is hovering over everything in the battle suddenly lift as the rebel forces are granted new power and energy from the light side and a white light can appear and then flash to the scene where all the imperials are running to escape the death star and add some little girly screams to the officers who cower at the thought of good!!

hysterical

I mean seriously people. Chill!! Ush you wrote an essay to "correct" my posts.

I wholeheartedly agree that it is kind of confusing.

At the same time, I am kind of glad it is the way it is. I am happy with the assumption that destroying the strongest parts of the dark side helped to boost the strength of the rebels. The light side could achieve victory. It had been building towards that the whole saga.

At that point I think it is kind of assumed by the audience that killing the Emperor had an impact...a tremor in the force...because the very next scene shows the rebels enter the death star. It was an extremely emotional scene...Vader just turned back to good...Luke was saved...evil was destroyed...Vader was dying. It might have severely slowed things down or taken the emotion away from things if there was a scene inserted between these two events to make completely clear the connection that has been so debated here in this thread.

You could just as easily ask how killing one man and destroying a half completed small moon defeats an entire Empire that is spread around the entire galaxy. It is because the light side of the force is strengthened with the defeat of the dark side and the rebels gain the edge. This is made clear in the little montage that shows the various planets (including Naboo now *shudders*) where the Empire falls to pieces.

Remember that Sidious was clouding everything and everyone with the dark side of the force.

By the end of ROTJ, the light side is stronger again.

Right, my take on things. No-one saved the Galaxy in RotJ. The galaxy would be fine and dandy with either a republic or the Empire, as would the Force. There is no mention of a Chosen One in the OT.

In the end the Force becomes secondary to the love between a father and son. The pull of the power of the dark-side is not strong enough to make Luke kill his father, and it is not strong enough for Vader to allow his son to die.

The emperor wanted to crush the rebellion.
He gave them false info to draw them out.
He wanted to turn Luke
He toyed with the rebels to help him turn Luke.
If the Emperor did not wish it then there would have been no battle. Therefore plot of the film should be seen from the Emperor's view - i.e. death of Vader, new apprentice, no more rebellion.

From Luke's point of view - he knows nothing of the "legion" on Endor so thinks by keeping Vader occupied he is giving the rebels a better chance. Also his love for his Dad compells him to try to help him, even if it is futile.

When the Emperor dies the battle is not won. The rebels have yet to begin the process of destroying the death star. Even if the rebels get destroyed, the lack of a Force-using Emperor would make it easier for Luke to form a new rebellion and overthrow the Empire. My point is that the Emperor was never certain to die. Even after the fatal shot is fired in the innards of the DS, Luke still has time to drag Vader to a shuttle, say goodbye and escape before it blows up. So there would've been enough time for the Emperor and a newly turned Luke to escape as well.

I think it is kind of like Lucas trying to put an exclamation point on things!

1) Let's kill the emperor.
2) Have him get thrown into a reactor
3) Make him explode

4) Then lets' blow the whole thing up just for emphasis - Evil is completely obliterated.

There are so many takes on these scenes it is unbelievable.


(this could be a long thread)

And something too (going along with my comments earlier).

The death star could not have been blown up with both all the light side users and dark side users of the force on board. Good and evil would have been destroyed. It is obvious when looking at episodes 4 and 5 that the light side was protecting Luke. There would be absolutely no representatives of the force left. That is probably what caused Vader to save him so that Luke could escape. The force would simply not allow this to happen.

If the Jedi had been destroyed alongside the Sith, and the rebels had won, they would also have lost. There would be no one to guard peace and justice in the galaxy (at least according to Lucas).

Anywho...I think I am retiring from this particular aspect of this topic as I grow tired of endlessly debating and I don't even know if I am making sense anymore as I get into all this "will of the force" stuff.

I already kind of went off the deep end with that whole Palpatine controlling all the troopers in Episode III idea. We are going to have to see how it is that troopers like Commander Cody can turn on their friends. I think what I really meant is that Palpatine is just manipulating everybody with the dark side of the force...clouding their minds.

And try to enjoy these movies and not analyze them too much like I just did. Like Ush said...it isn't the Matrix. That being said, I don't really think the Matrix was that deep either. A whole other topic though.

By all means though... everyone continue to voice your opinions on this subject.

The only thing I can think of right now on this is hopefully ROTS will at least leave the doors of possiblity open to a a slight misinterpretation by the Jedi of the prophecy....
IE: That although the chosen one DOES bring balance to the force
(By killing Sidious etc) Maybe it would mean that and ONLY that.
That Anakin kills the Emporer. This could then mean that, granted, a successful attack on the the Death Star with Palps on it might indeed do the job, but the one who saw through the force Anakin doing the deed could've been thinking mistakenly like "Ooooh....The chosen one must be the only one"or by assumption by the hearers of the prophecy....

This may seem lateral or silly, but think of this analogy...
If I went but to the States in say...1960 and said
"Hey..! In November '63, this Guy'll shoot JFK in Dallas and his name is Lee Harvey Oswald!" (Whether or not you believe that ) then that could be true, but then that wouldn't mean that Blowing up the cadillac wouldn't work either... but my prophecy to the people of 1960 would simply state the rifle wielder(s?)got there first and at a certain time place... So it'd be a similar error to assume that only LHO could assassinate JFK-Much like the Emporer,that guy had quite a few enemies at the time and plenty of them may have tried(And the rebels were trying right there) but only LHO (Alledgedly) succeeded there and then...Making him this analogy's "the one in the prophecy" or "APPARENT Chosen one"
Now or course this'd be a big old cock-up of arrogance by the Jedi to make this mistake... But lets face it they're a little blinded in the PT...

Your thoughts....?

This has probaly been posted but i didnt have the time to go through pages 2&3 so, accept my apologies. Ush- when talking about Lukes battle in the deathstar having no meaning you are missing a very main point, a point that with ep III will become the point of the entire saga, which is to turn vader back from the dark side. Yes he wouldve died anyway but it would have been with out redemption for all his evil. I think ROTJ was awesome tho' no ESB but easily the 2nd best of the OT IV was just to boring for me, i love it the same but not enough reall action

OK, this is all a bit silly.

Think about it logically.

EVERYONE was evacuating the Death Star when it was under attack as Luke and Anakin were leaving. Luke managed to get off the Death Star just in time after Emperor died.

Emperor was dead, killed because of Luke and Anakins actions. How could he evacuate if he was dead?

OK.

So what if Luke wasn't there? Emperor would have evacuated, along with all his troops. The reason The Emperor didn't get off the Death Star when it blew was because "The Chosen One" killed him.

It's speculation on both parts, but there is NO PROOF WHATSOEVER that The Emperor WOULD have died if Luke wasn't there, just as there is no proof he would have evacuated when it was about to blow. There is nothing to disprove the observation that Lukes actions stalled The Emperor, kept him busy.

If Luke hadn't have gone, The Emperor would not have wanted the guards to leave them alone - meaning they would have been there to help him to his ship. Luke being there meant that The Emperor isolated himself from the aide of his lackeys. He told them to leave them alone - his over confidence got the better of him, and nobody came to his aid when things looked bad. It was his own arrogance and Anakins turn that stopped the Emperor leaving in one piece.

It's all down to interpretation, and even since I was a kid, I interpreted it as Vader stopping the Emperor from getting off the Death Star when it was under attack. The Chosen One did his job. He stalled The Emperors evacuation in the best way possible, by throwing him to his death.

Excellent point RSF.......

I'd buy that......

I don't like how in the first page, (didn't read the second), that all the members tore up RotJ....
I'll admit, it had problems, and was no where near as good as ESB, but it wasn't as bad as you people were making it out to seem.
IMAO, I found the dialogue to be mostly okay; I didn't really like the Ewoks, but I've grown more lenient to them; and I sort of liked the way Han and Leia ended up - sort of.
Gosh, people need to learn to stop b!tching so much about a movies that was made in the 80's! I mean, come on! Every movie was cheesy and left you hangin' back then!
Just enjoy the movies, and if you don't - don't watch them!

I agree

Plus, ROTJ is my second favorite Star Wars movie! Empire Strikes Back being the first. I enjoyed MOST of the film. I agree that it had errors, and the Ewoks got to be annoying. But I think that Vader redeeming himself is one of the best scenes in the entire trilogy. The Rancor and Sarlaac Pit were very memorable and cool creatures, not to mention the speeder bike scene on Endor. It had a HUGE space battle and an awesome duel at the end.

Well I guess I will just throw in 2 cents like verybody else.

It started.......It ended

It was a movie about a "Final Battle" and thats about it. It did'nt introduce anything, it was the 3rd act.

a Happy ending.

Sure it could have gone on and on, but that is what are imaginations are for.

Well, that's your opinion...ours differ

the rancor-scene memorable? htat's one of the scenes I'm trying to forget... even on the dvd it looks sucky as hell

i agree

Yeah, they could have cleaned that up - but then again, they could have made the scene of the first time Luke ignites his saber, the lightsaber scene aboard the Falcon, or even the duel between Ob1 and Vader - or all three - much better using enhanced digital-technology.

Actually it seemed much more cleaned up to me.
GL made a big thing out how much he had cleaned up the special ed versions with the Rancor and the Snowspeeder's cockpit on Hoth,
But the improvements didn't REALLY look affected until the DVDs.
The Rancor STILL had matte lines round it and the foreground/background definitions on the shot where Luke stuffed the bone in the Rancor's mouth were really obviously still rear-projection-tastic, and the "See-through Speeder cockpits" were still visible on the Special edition versions, where as on the DVDs they DID look fixed compared to the Special ed versions.....

I too agree

Sigh... I cannot believe how many people still do not get the point.

That is speculation

I said this already many times. You can speculate about how it might have woprked all you like, but the film SHOULD have made it clear. I can dispute that speculation easily. Arguments can rage on about it forever. There is no way it should have happened. You are PRESUMING the Emperor would have survived. But from what we are given in ROTJ, we are given no reason to so presume.

"Ush- when talking about Lukes battle in the deathstar having no meaning you are missing a very main point, a point that with ep III will become the point of the entire saga, which is to turn vader back from the dark side."

No I am not missing anything- please read my posts again.

Barcautastic, your idea that the Galaxy was not saved is totally at odds with GL's point about good and evil. The sweeping point of the Star Wars saga is the re-balancing of the Force. Evil must be destroyed.

The point is, still, that the average person watching ROTJ would have no reason to think that only Anakin could have killed the Emperor, and that only Lke could have saved the day. We only know different because we are hardcore fans. It is a very basic error.

And you absolutely cannot get around it by saying "Ahh, but if you look aat it like THIS...". Still people try, but every time you do that, and introduce another idea into thousands of existing ideas, you merely demonstrate the problem.

Afraid not. George Lucas stated that only the Chosen One could do it. Besides which, his plot is otherweise pointless.

Well sure..... Ultimately the chosen one WAS the only one who COULD do it , by virtue of the fact that that he DID do it.
"Chosen one" prophecys don't seem to report runners up it seems.
I do agree with post earlier speculating that Anakin and Lukes clashing and Palps' determination to see that through kept him distracted on the Death Star which would have made Anakin again responsible for Palps' demise even if the Rebels had succeed in the blowing up of the Death Star with Palps' on board.
From a certain point of view.

I do see your point though.

*sigh*

Ush, didn't I say that what I was suggesting was speculation?

I'm saying EVERYTHING is speculation - including what you are saying.

You can't say the rebels would have blown up The Emperor, that's your speculation.

I agree about ROTJ not mkaing it clear enough. You can make many assumptions because of the lack of clarity.

I assumed everything - and I said that in my damn post. You could at least admit that your theory is also based on an assumption, because it is.

"The Emperor would have been blown up by the rebels attack anyway" - THAT is an assumption, not a fact.

Ushgarak, what is your point? Red Superfly's suggestion is a speculation? YES! I agree it is. He even admitted it himself a million times! But he is right, you can't deny the fact that you are speculating as well. Saying the emperor would have gotten blown up if Luke hadn't gone to confront him is also a pure conjecture, because you have no proof it would have happened! Basically Red Superfly is saying "You go with your opinion, I'll go with mine, but the bottom line is WE'RE BOTH SPECULATING!" He's trying to offer a compromisation.

I personally thought ROTJ was a pretty good aswell. Lots of cool action, especially the awesome space battle and lightsaber duel. I agree that the Ewoks were a little annoying at first, but I later got used to them.

One of the plus points about ROTJ is that it's the only time that C3PO actually contributes something to the saga. Telling the story to the Ewoks, pretending to be a God etc. Go C3PO!

i think that A NEW HOPE is the best movie and that A EMPIRE STRIKES BACK is the worst but still the last movie becomes great cause of the final space battle i think it is so cool and also because of the thing that they fight several battles trough the movie and that makes the movie not to boring if i say so some movies not necesary STAR WARS get boring cause it doesnt happen something from time to time.but still they are all so good a movie can get.

Originally posted by jedimaster2000
Ushgarak, what is your point? Red Superfly's suggestion is a speculation? YES! I agree it is. He even admitted it himself a million times! But he is right, you can't deny the fact that you are speculating as well. Saying the emperor would have gotten blown up if Luke hadn't gone to confront him is also a pure conjecture, because you have no proof it would have happened! Basically Red Superfly is saying "You go with your opinion, I'll go with mine, but the bottom line is WE'RE BOTH SPECULATING!" He's trying to offer a compromisation.

I personally thought ROTJ was a pretty good aswell. Lots of cool action, especially the awesome space battle and lightsaber duel. I agree that the Ewoks were a little annoying at first, but I later got used to them.

Please read what I said, and carefully this time. I already specified, quite clearly, that an important point like this needed to be made clear, and NOT left to speculation. It certainly appears that the Emperor would have died- that is the most direct apparent consequence. But I also pointed out that that was clearly NOT what we were meant to think- that it was nott he original plan but got messed up with script re-writes- yet the most direct interpretation of any person who sees it. Emperor on Death Star, Death Star blows up, Emperor dies- that is what people see.

THAT was my point- it was not made clear, and it damn well should have been.

It is a direct piece of lazy and sloppy scripting, something that hurt ROTJ all the way through.

Saying 'You are speculating also' and thinking that somehow invalidates my point only shows you aren't looking at what I said.

The film did not make clear that the good guys would have lost were it not for Luke (and by extrapolation, Anakin). That point is undeniable. You can speculate that they would or would not- though I am utterly certain that it makes far more sense, from simply watching the film, that Luke made no difference at all, which was not the impression they wanted to make- but that makes no difference. The very point that it has to be speculated upon IS the error.

The central plot point got lost.

""The Emperor would have been blown up by the rebels attack anyway" - THAT is an assumption, not a fact."

See, this is exactly where you are not reading what I am saying properly.

My point is that this is not true. But that is what it looks like! It's not even vaguely a fact, but it is what the average person will think, seeing that film.

So you speculating reasons as to why he would not have died were it not for Luke is irrelevant. It's not in the film, and that is where the film is at fault.

Dude, I said I agreed about Return Of The Jedi not making it clear enough - whats the problem?

"I agree about ROTJ not making it clear enough. You can make many assumptions because of the lack of clarity." - Me.

Originally posted by Antillies
i think that A NEW HOPE is the best movie and that A EMPIRE STRIKES BACK is the worst but still the last movie becomes great cause of the final space battle i think it is so cool and also because of the thing that they fight several battles trough the movie and that makes the movie not to boring if i say so some movies not necesary STAR WARS get boring cause it doesnt happen something from time to time.but still they are all so good a movie can get.

Well I am glad you at least agree that A New Hope is better than Jedi.

A New Hope IS better than Return Of The Jedi.

Everytime I watch A New Hope it just becomes better and better. It has a charm to it, it's lighthearted, and yet dark, and fun, and exciting, and I think out of all of them, A New Hope has the best "pace".

ESB is a better movie, and builds up the characters more, but there's no denying just how damn good A New Hope really is.

You know, after reading everything on this thread, I'm about here...

Ush, I still can't say I agree with you. Maybe I'll get an essay for it, but oh well. I just don't see your point. Or rather, I think I do, but you say something else and I find myself lost. You say it -looks- that way? To who? When? Where? How? Has anyone come up to you and said "Oh, hey... Why did Luke even board the Death Star? The Emperor was gonna die anyways." We call those ignorant people. While Star Wars is a saga that attracts millions and has a wide variety of age ranges, I can't honestly expect the third movie in a trilogy to hold people by the hand and explain everything to them like some Sesame Street pop-up book. I watched ROTJ when I was very young. In fact, I saw it before I saw all the others. And it made sense then. I was... let's see... born in 82... saw it maybe a few years later. So a kid under five could make sense of the plot. And you have claimed that there is sloppy plotwriting and whatnot. I won't dispute that. I'm not the expert, and you're talking like you are, so I'll just sit that one out. But you also claim that there should be no room for speculation... or at the very least that is what I get out of your posts so far. I'm not gonna reread for another half an hour to make sure. Not that much worth my time. But anyways, there is room for speculation in a lot of things. The Bible. The Consititution of the United States. The Magna Carta. The Matrix. Braveheart, whatever. Star Wars is not some high-tech documentary. It's science fiction. It's imagination come to life. And what you're asking for is for suspension of imagination. Even if there was sloppy screenplay, it certainly wasn't that noticeable. This is perhaps the first time I've heard of such a case. I don't know. Maybe I don't talk about this all the time with friends. We debate enough as it is over much more important things. But all I'm saying is you have failed to make your point on many fronts, aside from the occassional person who's a ping-pong ball, going back and forth every other post.

And I expect your reply to be lengthy, and totally anti- everything I have said. I expect at least two slight personal insults and perhaps a genral one, addressing all those who do not see eye to eye with you. Let the fun begin, I say.

As much as the "Teddy Bear Picnic" took away from the movie, as well as the extremely small scale of worlds and plot points, I thought that the final lightsaber battle was very emotional, and expressed an appropriate endto Darth Vader and reemergence of Anakin Skywalker.

But...It certainly is the worst of the OT.

Apparently, the emperor's "entire fleet" of his "Best men" were no match for Teddy bears.

I don't know if I like ROTJ better than ESB, but I def. like it better than ANH.

yuck.

The ewoks may have been a bit too cute but at least it showed one of them getting killed for the sake of realism. Did anyone else notice that not ONE gungan was killed in that fight in TPM?

Really? Some cavalrymen got exploded didn't they? I dont honestly know what the deal was with those power shield things, i mean what was there plan exactly, stand there and be shot at until the droids grew bored and left.

A huge problem i have with the prequal trilogies is this asstastic suggestion that all the stormtroopers are clone troopers, i can happily accept that the initial core of stormtroopers were clones, that a small percentage of the 'current' Imperal strength is made up of these clones. They made how many clones in AOTC? 10,000 every 10 years or so? x whatever they had in the rack, lets say thats 500,000 every 10 years, inbetween the films II and III is what, 20-25 years? 30-40? At most the Empire gets 2,000,000 troopers quite a lot hm?

Well not when you consider that not only are they engaged in an intergalactic war, they have to police all their planets with an Imperial garrison, when the Germans invaded the Soviet Union in 1941 they had around 2,000,000 soldiers, the Soviets had about 4,500,000 soldiers, considering that this is 2 countires constuting only a small small percentage of the population of the entire planet. The idea that the Empire is able to maintain order with 2 Mil, or even 10 Mil, in however many hundreds of planets (not to mention the thousands of sentient species) is ludicrous.

Furthermore you've then got the problem of the billions and billions of unused manpower on Imperial worlds an average planet should easily be able to produce a million fighting troops, yet the Empire would somehow only produce clones (expensive id imagine) and not only keep the massive populations of thousands of worlds under control but leave billions of potential soldiers and conscripts just sitting around with their thumbs up their arses is a ridiclous suggestion.

Anyhow that was longer than i expected. I just dont like the fact that George has got into his head the idea that all of the men in the Imperial Armed forces are clones, its just improbable. Conscripts are much cheaper and much more available. The end of ROTJ is just bollocks too, Death Star destroyed, massive Imperial Fleet goes, bugger it. Somehow the Emperor controls all of them? excuse me? One Jedi can lift a single fighter out of a swamp using all his concentration and we have someone controlling billions of men fighting, thinking and dying hundreds of billions of kilometers in all directions of the Empire?

Originally posted by Jerico
Really? Some cavalrymen got exploded didn't they? I dont honestly know what the deal was with those power shield things, i mean what was there plan exactly, stand there and be shot at until the droids grew bored and left.

A huge problem i have with the prequal trilogies is this asstastic suggestion that all the stormtroopers are clone troopers, i can happily accept that the initial core of stormtroopers were clones, that a small percentage of the 'current' Imperal strength is made up of these clones. They made how many clones in AOTC? 10,000 every 10 years or so? x whatever they had in the rack, lets say thats 500,000 every 10 years, inbetween the films II and III is what, 20-25 years? 30-40? At most the Empire gets 2,000,000 troopers quite a lot hm?

Well not when you consider that not only are they engaged in an intergalactic war, they have to police all their planets with an Imperial garrison, when the Germans invaded the Soviet Union in 1941 they had around 2,000,000 soldiers, the Soviets had about 4,500,000 soldiers, considering that this is 2 countires constuting only a small small percentage of the population of the entire planet. The idea that the Empire is able to maintain order with 2 Mil, or even 10 Mil, in however many hundreds of planets (not to mention the thousands of sentient species) is ludicrous.

Furthermore you've then got the problem of the billions and billions of unused manpower on Imperial worlds an average planet should easily be able to produce a million fighting troops, yet the Empire would somehow only produce clones (expensive id imagine) and not only keep the massive populations of thousands of worlds under control but leave billions of potential soldiers and conscripts just sitting around with their thumbs up their arses is a ridiclous suggestion.

Anyhow that was longer than i expected. I just dont like the fact that George has got into his head the idea that all of the men in the Imperial Armed forces are clones, its just improbable. Conscripts are much cheaper and much more available. The end of ROTJ is just bollocks too, Death Star destroyed, massive Imperial Fleet goes, bugger it. Somehow the Emperor controls all of them? excuse me? One Jedi can lift a single fighter out of a swamp using all his concentration and we have someone controlling billions of men fighting, thinking and dying hundreds of billions of kilometers in all directions of the Empire?

The big problem that I have is Coruscant. A planet-wide city would have to support at least one trillion people. There's no way that a planet could maintain an industrialized population of that gearth. The amount of excriment alone per day would have to equal the mass of a small moon.

Then, I remember that it's supposed to be off-kilter fantasy.

Luke had a very important purpose of confronting Vader and the Emperor on Death Star II in the plot of ROTJ, the classic triliogy and the entire Star Wars saga.

Notice how in ESB Yoda and Obi-Wan had urged Luke to not go to confront Vader, and then in ROTJ Yoda tells Luke that one thing remains before Luke can become a Jedi, confronting Vader. This tells us that Luke was meant to confront Vader all along, and Yoda's last dialogue with Luke reveals why he was urged not to in EBS - Luke wasn't yet ready to confront Vader. Confronting Vader (and Palpatine) are symbolic of Luke confronting his own evil nature - the symbolism is pretty overt in ROTJ alone.

Why is confronting his own Dark Side a requirement for Luke to become a Jedi? Because he must pass the same trials that his father failed at. Luke's greatest movie moment (besides the destruction of the original Death Star) is when he is about to destroy Vader out of anger and hatred, but instead chooses good, throwing the lightsaber away and announcing to the Emperor that he has failed. As much as Yoda and Obi-Wan feared the possible bad outcome, they knew that the future of the galaxy rested on Luke's denial of the dark side, not taking the same path that his father before him had. It was Luke's denial of evil which inspired the compassion of Anakin to choose good and destroy the evil Sith master of the Empire (which was Anakin's redemption for his evil choices).

This idea is even used in the climax of TPM. Obi-Wan was granted the title of Jedi Knight (and given Anakin as his padawan) after he defeated a Sith lord who he watched kill his own master, and Obi-Wan accomplished this without resorting to the Dark Side. Obi-Wan rose above and beyond the role of a Padawan and so he did not need to face the "Jedi trials" to achieve the status of Jedi Knight, because his successful destruction of Maul without evil was his personal trial. Of course Obi-Wan had it much easier than both Anakin and Luke, because he was raised from early childhood in the traditional Jedi manner which minimizes emotional attachment.

Lucas has shown he's a big fan of parallels. I have honestly avoided most ROTS spoilers (even on this site), but I have always felt (even before I saw TPM) that Episode III will show Anakin being in a very similar situation that Luke was in on Death Star II, except that Anakin fails and chooses evil, crossing over to the Dark Side. That will make Luke's choice in ROTJ even much more emotionally meaningful than it was without the prequel trilogy. So the next generation that gets to see each Star Wars movie for the first time in chronogical order will experience a slightly different tension in the drama of ROTJ. Will Luke make the same choice that his father did when in a similar situation?

Anakin could not be the Chosen One and destroy Darth Sideous if it hadn't been for Luke passing his trial. If anyone reads this post and still feels that Luke didn't do anything important to the plot of Star Wars during the Battle of Endor, in my humble opinion you're on crack.

And I'm not a die-hard Ewoks fan or anything, but I understand Lucas' symbolism and I don't have any real problem with their role in ROTJ (Of course I'm also one of those fans that actually think Jar Jar is funny.) Just like R2 getting fried and Luke turning off the targeting computer in the Battle of Yavin, the Ewoks demonstrate the theme that technology will not save us.

And yes, the Han-Leia love story arc is just a simple resolution. Not that dramatic, but not the main plot point of ROTJ either. And of course Han could not possible be as cool of a character in ROTJ as in the first two films, because it was his final ultimate joining of the Rebellion, the solo man finally fighting for the good cause after the final resolution of Solo-Jabba story arc. Han giving up his independence (in both becoming an Alliance general and also professing his love for Leia), is the end of that original Han Solo character we grew to love in the first two films. So I agree that Han is not as cool in ROTJ as in ANH and ESB, but that is a necessary part of the story. Han could not stay Solo.

And Lucas has stated that the purpose of Leia being Luke's sister is to maintain the story tension (back then) that Luke is expendable ("No, there is another". Movies are a bit more exciting if you are not 100% sure that one of the main characters will not die. It helps that death-defying adventurous drama work better. I feel that Vader baiting Luke by mentioning the idea of crossing Leia over to the Dark Side is a very nice touch of a plot point, the one thing that nearly crossed Luke over.

And I urge all Star Wars fans to reserve final judgement of the entire saga and its plot structure until we have seen the entire saga. Like I tried to demonstrate, ROTS should cast ROTJ into a new light. Not long now before Star Wars is finally complete...

Originally posted by tpaquin
The big problem that I have is Coruscant. A planet-wide city would have to support at least one trillion people. There's no way that a planet could maintain an industrialized population of that gearth. The amount of excriment alone per day would have to equal the mass of a small moon.

Then, I remember that it's supposed to be off-kilter fantasy.

yeah that was a minor thing with me,but that was in the back of my mind of something I thought was silly as well.

I prefer ROTJ to Ep1 and 2 by a long way, but the gap between ESB and ROTJ is too large. Come on, Ewoks. GL should have gone with Wookies despite the whole technological advanced thing. ROTJ Luke just kicks arse and is really cool but the Palace scene goes on for too long and the film sucks until the finale. I believe ROTJ was the beginning of Lucas's downfall.

I'm watching Return of the Jedi right now, and I was just thinking. Why do they have to send a trike force to the planet to destroy the big sattelite? After the battle breaks out, wouldn't it be much, much easier just to send an X-wing down there to shoot it and blow it up? The shuttle needed teh clearance code in order to get down without the tie fighters blowing them up, but when you have six ties on your ass, you might as well pop down and knock out that deflector shield for old Lando, right?

Where's the logic?

cause the shield had to be down before the fleet arrived. It was supposed to be a surprise attack, still...

You just can't let your fleet make the jump, let them hang around while an x-wing goes to take down the shield and THEN open fire, that's taking too much time and risk. Saver was (as they did) to infiltrate, take the shield down and immediatly after that emerge from hyperspace to shoot the DS down

Return of the Jedi is my favorite. I love the ending. I love how Vader was redeemed in the end. I absolutely loved Palpatine. He rocks.

George Lucas is a genius, people will be speculating over these movies long after you and I are gone.

Long Live The FORCE.

nute gunray should have returned and killed everone took thte death star and rulled the galaxy

Originally posted by mp34everdb
George Lucas is a genius, people will be speculating over these movies long after you and I are gone.

Long Live The FORCE.

And they will also be speculating why RotJ was a disappointment.

I didn't find it dissapointing. Each of the original trilogy had slow parts. Some of the stuff on Endor was that for ROTJ. Other than that, it was the best ever. Why do people not like it?

Better then a New Hope but not the ESB.

I also think that ROTJ is the best of all the movies and agree with star22.

There is a definite drop in movie quality when ROTJ came out. What I mean by movie quality, is in Star Wars terms. I love ROTJ, and all Star Wars movies, but when comparing them to one another, that is where I become harsh on them.

ESB is my favorite, with ANH coming in at a close second. Those two movies to me are perfect movies. I can watch them, and I don't wish Lucas would have done anything different to make them better.

ROTS & ROTJ are # 3 & #4, and that is the first drop in quality of a Star Wars movies. I love these movies, but there are certain parts of the movies I wish Lucas would have done different. ROTJ, get rid of those damn Ewoks, and ROTS, can you make Padme die other than just giving up. Also in ROTS, when Anakin turns in about 2 seconds, it isn't very convincing.

Then there are AOTC at # 5, and TPM at #6. They are good Star Wars movies, but far from great. There are many things in these movies I would have done different to make them better, mostly getting away from the kiddy factor.

All in all ROTJ was the first drop in quality in the Star Wars universe, and I don't think Lucas was every able to duplicate ANH & ESB since. Then again, how hard would it be to make 6 perfect/great movies?

Originally posted by mp34everdb
George Lucas is a genius, people will be speculating over these movies long after you and I are gone.

Long Live The FORCE.

He was only a genius when it came to making A New Hope and Empire,the others were dog doo.Except for Sith,that one was actually a pretty good star wars flick.

Originally posted by AmrothSkywalker
I also think that ROTJ is the best of all the movies and agree with star22.

LMAO.

No matter how much you argue people all have different opinions and the ESB fans will always say ROTJ sucked and ROTJ fans will always say ROTJ is way better. One thing though ccoo did you really think ROTS was better than ROTJ? Because I could name a ton more stupid things about ROTS than I could about ROTJ. Also ROTJ fans could argue that one thing that is bad about ESB is that all it is is the empire chasing the rebels for like the whole movie which is like one wild Bantha chase until the end. The only real big plot critical points are I am your father and yoda. Give me one good reason why you hate the ewoks besides "I was born to hate them and they annoy the crap out of me" and how do they hurt the story so much that you like it the least out of the trilogy?

The Ewoks are not cool, that is why they hurt the movie. Just think it was a planet of wookies, how much better ROTJ would be. Don't get me wrong, I can watch ROTJ til the day I die, I just don't think it is as good as ESB or ANH.

The Ewoks, I believe were cute and cuddly, which is good marketing to sell action figures to kids. I don't have a problem with Lucas making as much money as wants, but it definitely hurt the movie.

The final battle on Endor with the Ewoks doing their cute little cheers, and their overall unserious tone hurts the whole battle. Sometimes when you have a climax battle like that, and you sacrifice a little seriousness, you hurt the drama. Drama and Tension is what drives the final trench run in ANH, and the same for the whole cloud city part of ESB. Now there is awesome drama in ROTJ with The Emperor, Luke, and Vader. That part was done right, because I feel that is the best part of the movie whenever I watch it.

But tell me you don't like ROTS better than ROTJ

I thought Return of the Jedi was the best out of all Star Wars movies.

Yahhhhhhooooooooooo all the way master luke ROTJ forever it is the best of em all. I think I'm gonna start a poll of which OT movie is the best. Think anyone would participate in it?

I would participate in the pool.

look okay the crappiest star wars movies were attack of the clones and the phantom menace.

1-Revenge of the sith
2-Return of the jedi, A new hope and EMPIRe strikes back (tied)
3-Phantom Menace and Attack of the clones

No way is ROTS better than them all. NO WAY

The problem with ROTJ? One word... EWOKS. Enough said. It can't be the best because of the fuking ewoks.

ROTS
ESB
ANH
ROTJ
AOTC
TPM

You guys are the biggest retards ever ROTS doesn't even come close to any of the OT movies don't even call yourself a Star Wars fan.

Other than the Ewoks, I thought ROTJ was great.

Jabba's palace....the speeder bike chase....Vader's redemption....the space battle....the Emperor's encounter with Luke....Luke vs Vader (Round 2)....X-wings and the other fighters flying inside the Death Star's structure....Luke unmasking Vader.....

There were LOTS of great things about Jedi that certainly overshadow the abomination that is......the ewoks.

There is a really bad, cringworthy moment though, when Luke gets back from Dagobah and Han assembles his crew. It's disgusting.