Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

To the above, I would like to say only them following:

Creationists 'know' there must be a god who created everything, simply because they find it impossible to believe that everything which is so 'perfect' and 'precise' have come into being by itself.

That is the fatal flaw in their argument - the fact is that only we as human beings say that things are perfect and precise, that the universe is in harmony and preceise order, BUT in reality existence merely is, things merely are; they are neither perfect nor imperfect. There is no harmony and no chaos. In an ultimate sense, things are just in an ineffible condition - it carries no absolute descriptions besides those we are giving it.

Thus if nothing is perfect or imperfect, ordered or chaotic then it is no mean art or intelligent design which caused everything to be. Existence merely is - all merely is eternal and infinite. If you observe something in nature you think is utterly perfect, it is only you who think thus, but in nature outside of your mind it is neither perfect nor imperfect - it just is, so it might as well have become by mere chance as it is not really something perfect and precise that needs a designer. Another fatal flaw creationists make is that they say god created this perfect and ordered world, because it could not have come from nothing or just caused itself, BUT do they ever consider that this god is now the problem: how can this perfect, precise, ordered and powerful god just have come from nothing? He surely must have been designed! He could not make himself!? But then the creationists say that god simply always existed! Well, then we might as well say that existence or all that is simply always existed!

One cannot without dishonesty and contradiction say that there was always a god who is unfathomable himself, but existence as such which is also unfathomable could not always have existed. It is exactly the same thing. Let us rather call all that is, the universe, being as such, whatever you want to call it - let's call that god, if you want - I merely call it being.

I say never comblined science with Reglion it will only start trouble.JM

I'm not talking about science or religion, but of intelligent design of existence vs. the absence thereof.

We all try to figure things out using our little finite brains. We look at things from our own distorted view thinking we see straight. We keep asking questions all related to "Time". When, beginning, start of existence..etc.. If we are all operating in "Time" then we cannot fathom what is on the other side.

debiejo, I'm not talking about time, but about the unfathomable, eternity of all powerfull Existence/Cosmos which points to the superfluity of a god/creator - I say that existence might as well always have existed, hence the reason that there's no need for creation. One could possibly draw the conclusion that god does not exist, but rather god IS existence - nothing more, nothing less - god is no creator, but merely existence as such.

I did say that it's not fathomable.