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Ask Anakin. He's been on both sides

Wish I could........

what does ROTS stand for? I thought Yoda was all power =o

My alternative answer: I always saw it like they're in flux yet both necessary parts of the whole....Like I couldn't tell you which is stronger, day or night..The side of a pound coin with the crest or the side with the head.....?
The darkside is immediately more powerful, but always leads to destruction/decay/being murdered by a darkside practioner who wants your job...etc whereas the lightside offers perhaps more longevity (allowing for the exception of possibilty of war of course) strength through flexibility and relaxation.... Advantage sways from side to side favouring light then dark and back again , each side compliments the other IMHO....

Also it must depend on the time, at the time of ROTS the darkside is stronger and out of balance with the lightside, also sids doesnt defeat yoda, yoda just makes a tactical withdrawl

its a tough question because it brings up many ther debates,
the most notorious imho: is there an actual 'dark side' or is that dark
side within the thoughts of a force user. that arguement could go on forever, and it has.

as far as how individuals use the force, it depends on the situation.
ultimately, the light side is stronger(i trust yoda's word). but there are plenty of moments where the darkside is dominant. it is dominant many times because its rooted in deception, whether it be clouding others' vision, or holding out on their true power and using the element of surprise...or just an old fashion dirty trick. most of the times the good guys are being owned, they never saw it coming. this is because they were led to make a poor choices out of their misunderstanding of the situation. they fall victim to manipulation...so i think the darkside is not more powerful...but in ways smarter.

lets go over duels in the saga:

1-quigon rushed and was lured into a trap. he quickly advancing on maul while obiwan lagged behind. poor choice imho

2-obiwan slices maul's saber in half and is led to believe that he is winning. for a split second he gives in to his anger and take a moment to let maul know it by holding the saber locked on his and giving him the mother of all angry looks. imo obiwan was lured a bit to the darkside at that moment and his arrogance almost cost him his life. bad bad choice.
at least he learned from his experience.

3-anakin rushes to dooku because of his anger which caught him a major forcelightning bitchslapping. if he had waited, they probably could have ended the war right there. but wait...dooku had not manipulated anakin into doing that...but palpatine did by pumping up his ego.

4-obiwan vs. dooku. pretty evenly matched. more of skill vs. skill rather than force power imho, it seemed pretty much a stalemate until dooku outsmarted him.

5-yoda completely owned dooku until the giant column was about to crush obi and ani. so the second most powerful jedi was outsmarted by his padawan...all it took was a dirty trick.

6-luke rushed to face vader in ep5...and why? deception. vader tortured his friends to lure him there and thus forced luke to make a bad choice.

7-rotj, luke makes another bad choice by flipping out and almost killing his father...why? because vader baited him.

Yoda never said the Light Side was stronger.

However, GL indicates on the AOTC DVD that the Dark Side seems stronger- it seems to give you more power and to achieve what you want (as Yoda says- Quicker, Easier, more seductive).

But this is a false view- not because it doesn't work, but (as Sadako mentioned) because the Dark Side ultimately leads nowhere.

Remember, GL's theme for the Prequel Films is symbiosis. In interview, he talks about symbiosis being the natural state of things (this tying into Balance). The Light Side is the epitome of this natural symbiosis.

In contrast, GL tells us, the Dark Side is parasitic-it feeds upon and destroys itself. We are given the example of the Sith- mighty and powerful and evil and all that... but they destryoed THEMSELVES.

There is no true power on the Dark Side. It LOOKS like power, but it leads nowhere, for eventually it destroys you. Only the Light Side can ultimately endure.

As far as kicking the crap out of things goes, though- the Dark Side has the edge. If it didn't have that edge, no-one would bother using it.

Here is GL commenting on the matter:

"The Emperor was trying to get rid of Vader, and Vader was trying to get rid of the Emperor. And that is the antithesis of a symbiotic relationship, in which if you do that, you become cancer, and you eventually kill the host, and everything dies."

I havent really formed a theory on the force cause there is :

The Dark side of the force - easier more seductive
The Force - just mentioned plainly as the Jedi have commonly done
The living force - Strongly upheld by Qui-Gon

I have noticed that The Light side of the force is hardly ever mentioned in the movies. we are assuming that if there is a Dark side, then there should be THE "Light" side. Does anyone remember who says the LIGHT SIDE in any of the Movies ?

Luke says "the good side" in ROTJ to leia

I think it depends what you use the force for. If you use it for aggression, violence, attack then the dark side is much stronger thats why for the most part it takes two Jedi to take on one Sith. Now if you use the force for sustaining life, knowledge, defence. Then the light side is stronger. But for the most part I think, though dangerous, the dark side is stronger but it leads to your destruction. Yoda was speaking from a certain point of view, but think about it, at that time he was hiding in a swamp, and the emperor & vader were ruling the galaxy..........

On Endor right ?

So here is another question. Bringing balance to the force for what reason ?

if the Jedi thought that the Sith (users of the Dark Side) where extinct, then they DID think that the force had to be brought into balance. Because the force was outbalanced by the Good Side.
The Prophecy states that The one will bring balance to the Force.

Was it a coincedence that Anakin was discovered by the Jedi at the same time that the Sith made an official re-appearance ?
My opinion is that it was the Force that has made this happen. It guided both Jedi and Sith to Tattoine in a race for the chosen one.

IMO , ANAKIN is the Strongest part of the Force. He goes from Good side to Dark side and back again to the Good Side.

Gahhh! That old misapprenehsion again!

GCG, you are wrong. The Light side was NOT unbalancing the Force. As GL tells it, it is the Light side that CREATES balance.

The Light Side balances, the Dark Side seeks to unbalance. It is the existence of the Sith that creates imbalance, their removal causes the Balance to returm.

I Have A Theory That Might Be True...What Is The Mystery About A Chosen One That Can Bring Balance To The Force? I Have The Answer Right Here Folks!...The Force Is Inbalance In The Prequels...Thats Why The Darkside Was Stronger In That Time... Because If Anakin Had Stayed On The Light Side Of The Force Then The Light Would Be Stronger But Anakin Turned Dark And With Palpatines Power The Dark Grew Even Stronger Because Of The Chosen One A.k.a Anakin. That Is What The Whole Movie Is About...How The One Made His Decisions. Palpatine Maybe Knew Of This Balance Already, Thats Why He Wants Anakin To Be Lured To The Darkside Of The Force...To Have The Galaxy By His Feets...And Anakin Is Just The Key That He Needs.

now i got that right probably

have to agree with ush on this.
people misinterpret 'balance' as a scale. light on one side, dark on the other.

balance really means peace in a way. balance in that there is no (sith) mortal manipulating the force to dictate the fate of everyone in the galaxy. so there is no balance when the sith are in control, in that the will of the force is irrelevant.

Exactly PVS. To me, the only true balance will be when there is no good AND no evil, just coexistense without war, poverty, slavery, etc....

not necessarily bilb. infact, i dont think that good and evil are relevant.
the hutts have probably bought and sold slaves for the entire existense of the republic, and 1000 years of balance.

the sith are not the source of evil, they just are evil, with the power to manipulate the force and use it to dominate everything. its that dominance which causes the destruction of balance.

without the sith, there has been and will still be evil, but yet the force will remain in balance. there will still be 'wretched hives of scum and villainy', but yet they wont dictate the fate of the galaxy as a whole.

k, maybe i didnt clarify enough. You are right, for 1000 years all this stuff has been going on. My thought is that for 1000 years the balance has been slowly geting out of whack and it wasnt until the balance was shifted to such a dire level that Anakin was born. That said, so long as there is never a 7,8 or 9 made then after Vader is killed true symbiosis will be acheived.

Ok i agree with what GL says in the 1st part (ie): the good side creates balance BUT we are all aware that the Jedi had long thought that the Sith were Extinct.........and yet there was still need to bring balance ?

so if we take Ushgarak's first part and what PVS says here:



then it does start to look a bit clearer.

Interesting ideas whirling around in here...

I was thinking... maybe we should put not the Force into context, but the users of the Force. The Force itself has a flipside, to be sure. But the element itself I don't think is good or evil. Its uses and the intent behind such uses become good or evil. That said, if balance is the use of the Force that is harmless, the reverse would be imbalance, the use of the Force causing harm, directly or indirectly.

So the idea of imbalance isn't the existance of evil; evil is something that has to exist for good to be detereminable. The idea of imbalance is the existance of the Sith, the opposing team to the Jedi, who (generally) represent order. It -is- called a Jedi Order, isn't it? (Word play there... )

Now, we have this notion of power. What is power? It is the ability and intent to do something according to your will. It is the ability to change minds, or cause storms, or even ground your kids to their rooms. We could easily say, for the sake of argument, that the Dark Side (tm) is stronger. Certainly it appears that way. But what is the end to which this power is a means? Evil is self-destructive. It does not create lasting institutions... no empires, no Orders... certainly no semblances of trust. Therefore it is self-defeating. The power that can be attributed to the Light Side of the Force, the one that regards balance and order, is a power of making lasting achievements. It can only be defeated by stagnation, I suppose. Perhaps the imbalance of the Force was not due to the reemergance of the Sith, certainly since there were only two Sith in existance, working secretly. In the past, whole legions of Dark Jedi existed. And no prodigy was born then. Soooo... The imbalance must have come about through the stagnation of the Jedi Order. Perhaps their teachings had failed in some attempt, or did not adapt to the change or temperment of the times.

Errr...

No. Sorry,. you people are WAY overcomplicating.

The imbalance comes from one thing alone- the Sith have returned.

When they are gone, the imbalance is gone.

Simple as that!

perhaps janus is overcomplicating, but i hardly see it as everyone.

The force si the force, no matter how you use it. Whether it is the light side or the dark side depends on whether it is used for good or evil

Now THAT I can relate to....

The rest however I think is a bit of an overcomplication. However, seeing as how this is basically all philosphy at its core, this debate can (and will) go on for ages.

WOW! I started a really intense thread?

first you say that the the force is still balanced before anakin turns, that
only after he turns the force is out of balance and thus the prophecy of the "one who will bring balance".

and now you say it was unbalanced when the sith arive. that would mean it was unbalanced for the entire PT, when the sith 'reveal' themselves and start to take over....which is exactly what i argued.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=325010&perpage=20&highlight=&pagenumber=2

I think the Force is actually just exactly that, the Force. It's what you do with your connection that determines whether the dark or the light side has the upper hand. The Jedi have long since used the Force as a guiding hand in keeping peace in the galaxy. The Sith on the other hand have fully tapped into the Force and used it as a tool to gain power. In my opinion the dark side is the stronger of the 2, simply because it's the side that the Force is used to its fullest potential.

No! I did NOT say that, so please do not misquote me.

I said the Sith CAUSE THE IMBALANCE. Else the Force would always have been imbalanced because the Sith were never dead.

When the Sith return and destroy the Jedi... bye bye balance.

When the Sith are then destroyed... return of balance.

Actually the Force goes out of balance with the appearance of the Sith. They dont have to defeat the Jedi for the balance to shift.

Prove it. GL says otherwise.

Oki-dokey, I'll be back with a quote for you.

Well there's this one

from DARTH RASTA'S INTERVIEW WITH
GEORGE LUCAS.

BY STEPHEN "RASTA" MULLINS

George: Let me explain briefly. If good and evil are mixed things become blurred - there is nothing between good and evil, everything is grey. In each of us we have balance these emotions, and in the Star Wars saga the most important point is balance, balance between everything. It is dangerous to lose this. In The Phantom Menace one of the Jedi Council already knows the balance of The Force is starting to slip, and will slip further. It is obvious to this person that The Sith are going to destroy this balance. On the other hand a prediction which is referred to states someone will replace the balance in the future. At the right time a balance may again be created, ]but presently it is being eroded by dark forces. All of this shall be explained in Episode 2, so I can't say any more!

there you go...

"the dark side clouds everything"
"our ability to use the force has diminished"

no jedi had to die for the balance to shift.

OMFG its like the Matrix forum all over again - what did Neo really mean when he said ''Woah''!?!? Is it a code for secret entrance into Zion?! Or is it the riddle that solves ALL matrix questions.

Sheesh, everyone!




Ush, Im trying to understand this, so dont go all ''you are ignorant'' on my ass, okay? I am NOT a star wars expert, thats why im trying to udnerstand this -

You said...

''Sith CAUSE THE IMBALANCE. Else the Force would always have been imbalanced because the Sith were never dead.''

but then a line down you said

When the Sith are then destroyed... return of balance.

Thats the bit that made no sense to me. If the sith were never dead (like they warent) and they cause inbalance, like you said, and when they are destroyed (like you said again) is when the balance in the force returns, then....by that there was never any balance.

Explain, please, and play nice, i dont have to put up with 'you have no logic and are ignorant' crap. nono

war

Technically speaking defeating the Sith would have had the same effect, becausempresumably that is what happened last time, a millenia ago.

Killing them just makes it permanent.

But Lucas makes the point clear- the Sith destroy the Balance during the course of the films, the Balance is restored when Anakin kills the Emperor. Without the Sith, the imbalance cannot endure. But the Prequel films tell of how the Sith create the imbalance in the first place- it wasn;t just by existing, but only in existing can it be prolonged.

JP... your quote proves me right.

"The Sith are going to destroy this balance"

There. Directly. Canonincal. Going to destroy. Yes, it is being eroded, The process has begun. But directly GL says that it has not been done yet.

Thanks for proving me right.

Incidentally, I have no ideawho Darth Rasta is, and what he has claimed to do, but that quote is actually from an interview with Japanese magazine 'Cut'.

Can you BE any more full of it? Balance is BALANCE.......and once it starts to erode its OUT OF BALANCE!!! Go back to English class. I knew you'd twist that to your advantage.

Jesus, JP. How much more clear does GL have to be?

"The Sith are going to destroy this balance"

You just quoted him saying that. 'Going to' FUTURE TENSE.

Anyone who reads that and seriously thinks it is already happened has rocks in their head.

The process has started. It is not complete. That is what GL has said. That's the end of it!

Well GOD, there is another quote which I am looking for that further proves my point. You can twist the above quote to suit your purposes, but you're wrong.

Ooooo, a fight!

It is not twisting, it is saying what he said. It is abundantly clear.

Along with this quote:

"Anakin will be taken over by dark forces which in turn destroy the balance of the Galaxy"

In turn. AFTER he goes bad. Again- future tense.

Sorry, GL is clear. The balance is not destroyed until after these events.

emp Stop your arguing and hostility!!!!

Ok so lets see if you have sand on both sides of a scale, and on one side the sand starts to erode, does the scale go out of balance? But then maybe in your world it doesnt.

Well, it beggars belief that someone can read something that says that something is going to happen, future tense, and say it is me twisting that to not agree that it thereofre means it has already happened.

It is ludicrous and if people continue to say that is twisting, I will continue to be angry. It is FACT.

And JP, whatever nonsensical allegory you want to come up with, it does not change what GL has said.

Process started, Not finished, Force going to go out of Balance- has not done so yet. Clearly your allegories are therefore not appropriate.

Ush please make up your mind...
Is it out of balance only agter Ani is turned or is it eroding from within for all these years. Every other post you contradict yourself and then wonder why we mere mortals dont get it. WTF?

Answer my question about the sand and the scale.

Now you are just lying. I have not once contradicted myself. Read my posts again.

<--------Still waiting.........you cant ignore physics.

I answered your point already' Cannot ignore physics' is simply gibberish.

Trust me I have read them more than I would like, so just answer the question once and for all... In your infinite wisdom when does the imbalance happen?

no you're wrong, it's just that simple. If the force was already startting to ERODE as Lucas said in TPM then it's already begun to shift out of balance! And the laws of physics are not gibberish.

The actual state in which the Galaxy can be said to be out of Balance is almost certainly when the Jedi are destroyed. That it is the destruction of the Jedi that does it is my opinion, but it fits all the facts, especially as the destruction of the Sith in turn restores it.

As whatever it is does not happen until after Anakin turns bad- fact from GL- I think you will be hard pushed to think of a better one.

But the process that is causing that, the start of the slippage of Balance towards the point of Unbalance, is happening from the moment Sidious starts his plans.

Physics is not, you attempting to use an inaccurate analogy to try and contradict what GL says about his own universe most certainly is.

GL says it has not happened yet. Fact. All the waste-of-time talking about sand will not change that.

So for 3 pages you have argued both sides & just now found a way to tie them together, Convenient

Simply a lie- again.

Uh I believe thats exactly what I said. With the appearance of the Sith. Please post the exact quote with a link where Lucas said the force doesnt go out of balance until the Jedi are defeated.

No, you said the Galaxy was already unbalanced. Not true. It is heading that way, but it is not unbalanced yet- that is what GL says.

prove it

"Anakin will be taken over by dark forces which in turn destroy the balance of the Galaxy"

If this quote was written at the time of TPM then is it not possible that 'when Anakin turns bad' could be in Ep2 with the slaughtering of the sandpeople....?

If so, Yes, the darkside would be out of balance already by the time of Ep3...

Do not twist my words I know exactly what I said.

Hah! Up to you to prove I have lied first before I refute it.

My position has always been simply this- the Galaxy does not go out of Balance until the Jedi are destroyed. That position is backed by GL and has never changed. Now show me the lie.

Last warning with the hostility and the name calling - knock it off or http://images.killermovies.com/forums/styles/ubb/lock.gif

ok i understand, its unbalanced...but its not unbalanced.
its unbalanced until ep3 when anakin turns...then it will be REALLY unbalanced....???

Dude, you called ME a liar, so the burden is on you, or does that make too much sense?

No, it is becoming unbalanced but is not unbalanced yet.

That's simply what GL says. If you don't like the description... tough, that's how he likes it.

But what cannot be argued is that he directly says that it has not happened yet.

I asked you to provide the quote. And the link to it. I did.

Sigh... only in response to you saying I contradicted myself. You prove your things first, then I shall refute if necessary. That is how basic logic works.

"Actually the Force goes out of balance with the appearance of the Sith"

Yup, as you quoted yourself... that is what you said... and it is wrong. GL says so.

I have given you the quotes. I already said, that it is directly the Jedi is my opinion, but if you have a better event after Anakin turns bad, by all means give it. That it is after Anakin turns bad is direct from GL.

You know what? Go ahead & have your last word. Seems to be all you are good at. So have at it. You are in the wrong here, you know it, I know it & everyone else does too. So flame away. you know its too bad you get an such a high horse in this forum, you are actually a nice guy in others.

But where did he say this? An interview? From where did it come? I mean I can sit here and say GL says JarJar is Anakins father but that doesnt make it so.

I am not even vaguely in the wrong, GL supports me, you cannot deny what he has said, and he directly says it does not happen until after Anakin tuns bad. The only reason I think this is because GL said it. That is the only lead I have followed when it comes to facts, instead of letting possibly erroneous opinions interfere with what GL has already decided upon. I cannot truthfully say that the Death Star is a cube, that Han's name is Stanley, or that Luke is a Rodian. Likewise, I cannot truthfully say that the Force is out of Balance before Anakin turns evil, which in turn means it cannot have been simply when the Sith re-appeared. That's how it is.

This discussion was all from Cut magazine in '99.

Link?

What do you mean, link? It's a magazine, not a net page. Go read it.

Yes it does JP, because it's GL's MOVIES!
And bilbs, what the **** are you talking about? Ush has proven his point countless times, but you and JP are too much of a couple of divas to even admit that he is right.....

an article from a magazine i have never heard of that was printed in 99..

yeah that will be right there at the local bookseller or libary for me to read this....interview

Hey ARC, if you think I'm wrong thats cool. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, so long as it is their OWN opinion & not just blindly backing some else.

But I have never been called a diva...I'm flattered!!!

Ok let me rephrase. I don't believe you. Doesnt get any simpler than that. You are not right 100% of the time. And this just happens to be one of the times you're wrong. And thats what I think. And Im not changing my opinion until I see something that proves my quote wrong (which you took out of context I might add) So until then I'll being seeing you.

Here is a Question for JP and Ush, when Yoda or Ben or any Jedi feels a disturbence in the force, is it the shifting of balance they really feel?? OOOOOOOHHHHHH deep thoughts

Whatever....
There's too much PMS in this room....

Unfortunate, but unavoidable. I've been asked to give the source- that's the source

(shrugs)

JP's own quote was form the same interview, and helped prove me right.

Hey I was joking around. PMS comments are offensive & you know it so lay off.

Feel free to not believe me- despite having quoted from the same interview.

But that is what he said. It is there in print. So more fool you. Sorry. But there you go. GL says you are wrong, and I think no rational person really thinks I am making quotes up. It's there, and he said it.

In my opinion Id say yes. If you shift something it changes its basic form so to speak.

ARC, if you cant say anything above a playground level intelligence please stay out of the conversation.

Well, I'd simply say we don't know what the heck a disturbance in the Force IS! So that can't really be answered.

Sorry, I couldn't tell - you get genuinely mad at people and say things just like that.
Huh.....sorry about the PMS comment then.....

Ouch, that really hurts....not!
Wow, I think I'm turning into KidRock....

I think this thread has become a disturbance! Can we either discuss like adualts or close please?

Thank YOU...

The entire article and the link, which states after Anakin turns the blance is destroyed. But also CLEARLY stats the blance SHIFTS when it starts to erode. This is all semantics. Arguing with you is like arguing with a child who gets mad when you take their toy.

http://www.moviemaniacs.8m.com/viewlucas.html

Recently I called up my good friend George Lucas and arranged to have an interview. It took a little convincing since the last time I interviewed him...there was a small groin incident, but I got the interview!

Rasta: So George, I'm sure you've heard what some people are saying about Episode 1. Now anyone like
myself would gladly give you head just to thank you for that wonderful picture, but some say quote "it
sucked". What do you have to say about that?"

George: Is this on the record or not?

Rasta: Oh definately off the record. (Hee hee hee.)

George: They will all die! When I reveal myself to be the true omnipotent power in this galaxy I shall crush all
living beings under my heel who don't do my bidding!

Rasta: I see we're cut from the same fabric. Now, on the record. In Episode 1 Qui-Gon Jinn said Anakin would
bring balance to The Force. What does that mean?

George: Let me explain briefly. If good and evil are mixed things become blurred - there is nothing between good
and evil, everything is grey. In each of us we have balance these emotions, and in the Star Wars
saga the most important point is balance, balance between everything. It is dangerous to lose this. In The
Phantom Menace one of the Jedi Council already knows the balance of The Force is starting to slip, and
will slip further. It is obvious to this person that The Sith are going to destroy this balance. On the other
hand a prediction which is referred to states someone will replace the balance in the future. At the right
time a balance may again be created, but presently it is being eroded by dark forces. All of this shall be
explained in Episode 2, so I can't say any more!

Rasta: Before I get to my next question I just have to say this. I want to have sex with you. Now, on to the next
question. Some beleive that Luke, not Anakin is the chosen one. Does that mean Qui-Gon is a stupid
pecker?

George: I think it is obvious that he was wrong in Episode 1 and made a dangerous decision, but ultimately this
decision may be correct. The Phantom Menace refers to the force of the dark side of the Universe.
Anakin will be taken over by dark forces which in turn destroy the balance of the Galaxy, but the
individual who kills the Emperor is Darth Vader - also Anakin. The tale meanders and both the prediction,
and Qui-Gon is correct - Anakin is the chosen one, and he did bring peace at last with his own sacrfice.
Luke couldn't kill the Emperor himself, but he could make Anakin reflect on his life and kill the Emperor.

Rasta: I just thought you'd like to know. I've just made the decision to have "Darth Maul" tattooed, up my ass...


Well after that I kinda went off into my own world and George eventually called in some "guards" and had them beat the crap out of me. It seems he didn't react to well to me trying to rimjob him. Anyway I'll try and get some more info for you all next time.

bilb>
I bet I could cut the tension in this room with a butter-knife....

And how did I take your quote out of context, other than by pointing out that GL specifies, in that quote, that

"The Sith are going to destroy this balance"

As in, they have not done it yet?

It doesn't actually get any simpler than that. There must be some astounding self-imposed logic block in your reasoning here. Every rational person reading that can clearly see that meaning.

Well lets just take a poll here shall we?

Someone needs to close this....

That is the Cut magazine interview, JP, just with some made-up guy claiming the credit. It is not semantics at all. GL unequivocably, and clearly, states that it has not happened yet. That cannot be argued. Your continued accusations of immaturity are of no value. The point is, he simply says it has not happened yet, and that it does not happen until after Anakin turns. That he says the process of movingntowards that has started doesn't mean a thing- the event itself, where the Force is out of balanace, has not yet been done.

Blah, blah, blah.......whatever God..........moving on.....this is clearly pointless.

(shrugs)

Truth hurts, but there you go.

Look here is my OPINION:

The Sith will EVENTUALLY totally destroy the balance one Ani falls BUT the balance has been getting more & more out of whack for 1000 years.

Is that better?

Hopefully Lil b got my PM to close this....

*edit*: hit the refresh once in a while walla...

...or not.

exactly

I must say you two are making different arguments. JP is saying that this erosion is a slow process over time (the sand scales, ect.) and ush if I understand correct your saying that the prcess happens in one event. So thats the real argument correct?

That's because the context of the interview is made up- it is made-up stuff intercut with what he really did say to Cut Magazine.

That doesn't seem objectionable, Bilb. So long as no direct contradiction is being made to GL's statement that the Balance of the Force is not destroyed until after Anakin turns, any theory works.

Not quite. There is a process of destroying Balance- that process is not complete, and therefore the Balance is not actually destroyed, until after Anakin turns.

GRRRRRRRRRRRRR! Did I ever say anything about when it was destroyed????????? NO!
I said it goes out of balance with the appeance of the Sith. For the love of God read what I write. This is my whole point. It's not about when the balance is finally destroyed, or when it's brought back. It's when it actually SHIFTS out of balance.

So what exactly are you two arguing now? Or have you both forgot?

So can we end this now? PLEASE? This is what I said on page one of this thread anyway! Good Lord we are all stubborn!

The point is that people were saying that the Balance was gone before that point. GL simply does not see it that way.

So sorry, JP, that's still wrong. Until the Balance is destroyed, it is still Balanced.

who said you said destoyed?

Let's have an orgy!
*Hopes that stops insanity - at least temporarily*

Is that because Anakin was meant to bring balance to the force so when he turns the force loses balance..??? emp

I just love my ultra fabulous Palps smilie.

Ok, so I may be opening a whole new can of worms here but, Ush if it is as you say & the balance is DESTROYED once Ani turns, what happens once he kills Palps in ROTJ? Balance again? & if so how is that possible if it was totally destroyted as you have said?

ARGH! Where is the beating the head on the computer smilie???
So, if you use that logic. If you drop a teaspoon of sand back on those scales they are still in balance until a rock (Anakin) comes along and gets dropped there?

Actually, to be accurate, I never said the Balance is gone once Anakin turns, merely that GL says the Sith do it AFTER he turns, and I cannot think of an event that suits that better than the destruction of the Jedi.

And killing Sidious restores the Balance... err, that's as complex as it gets. Clearly, either state it not perfect or irreversible.

good point bilb.
the balance is never 'destroyed'

by killing the jedi, palps and vader take away any chance for that balance to be restored....until a jedi does the deed, that jedi being anakin in rotj.

the force was out of balance from ep1. the hints are overwhelming and redundant. the jedi are clouded and palps is taking advantage of the imbalance he created. there is balance or there is no balance

The problem is, JP, your allegories just do not fit the situation GL gives. I think you are taking 'Balance' way too literally. The way he descrbes it looks nothing like scales, aside from anything else.

An opinion contradicted by GL- who also directly says, in the quotes above, that the Sith destroy the balance!

You just cannot contradict these things, sorry.

Balance cant be destroyed I would say, It can be taken out of balance even to the point of everything being on one side, But the other side of the scale is always there waiting to be filled.

Dude find another thread, the grownups are talking in this one.

USH GL contradicts himself on a daily basis. And my example is a literal one so that everyone could understand.

Look, GL still said 'destroy' no mater what you think- as if the word used is even important! Destroyed, gone, unbalanced, upset, it all refers to the same thing- whatever was there before is not there now. It's not literal!

ush, im speaking in the sense of a final destruction.
there is no event which finally destroys it. its already destroyed and the sith did it. i made no contradiction.

Feel free to not accept what GL says, but this is what he says and he hasn't contradicted that.

If people want to not accept GL's words that is their business, but it puts them out of touch with what is so. If you want to actually disprove what he said with his own statements, I am open to that.

Are those the only types of comments you can say to me?
Bugger off, JP. I have as much a reason to be here as anyone else....
....well.....that's not very true....

But no-one was ever talking about 'final' destruction in that sense. The word was only there because GL used it, and evidently he did not mean it in a final sense.

It's not actually necessarily a final word. Put a whacking great weight on a pair of scales and you 'destroy' the balance- it doesn't mean you have to have smashed the scales to pieces with a big hammer- wary as I am as using scales as an example, because that is not how GL sees it.

then say something constructive........

Isn't it as simple as this? When the Sith are around, the force is not in balance...and when the Sith are gone, there is Balance?

Okay....:
Why the f*ck do you all care so much to fight about it this much? GET OVER IT, IT'S ONLY FROM A F*CKING STUPID MOVIE!

Or

How about we all get lives, since these movies are ruining our social skills, and turning friends on their friends - I mean look at how you are all fighting over something spoken of in passing over 5 years ago!

OK look, we all have opinions and those are based on things we have read / seen over the years. Honestly Ush it comes across as though you are speaking down to all of us which is just rude. Thats why the hostility is rising. I know what I think and until someone treats me with respect and explains it diferent I am not gonna change my mind. Point is, alot of us would appreciate it if you did not say things in such an abrupt & belittling manner.

I'm surprised this discussion went on this long.

Indeed Bilb.
And ARC welcome to my ignore list.

Arc you would think if you were so sick of it you would be over the the Harry Potter Forum by now

Can't be- the Sith never died out, yet the Force was balanced, so they cannot do it just by existing.

ARC- calm down, that's not going to help. JP's right, you should bring something constructive or leave us to it.

I'm not talking down, Bilb. I simply present things as GL gives them. I mean, I have been basically accused of making up a quote in this thread- frankly I think I am the more wronged.

You & me both..Who knew?

God, you people take all this crap too seriously....
JP> Glad to here it, since I can't stand you. *Ouch*
Cowboyography> Maybe I will go to the HP Forum....

USH, I didnt say you made that up. I doubt highly that you would do that. But I am a creature of needing to see certain things before I believe them. And Bilb has a point. You have a way of reposnding that makes other people think you are saying that their opinion is just so wrong it laughable. If you cant see that, Im sorry, but it is the prevailing opinion in the EP3 section. Im honestly not trying to pick a fight.

Ah that's right. Forgot about that.

What puzzles me is how they couldn't detect either Maul or Sidious at first. Do you think perhaps they thought the force was in balance, yet it really wasn't? Or is that something they'd clearly be able to determine?

The dark side clouded their vision Sith.

please stop bashing members. not nice

I was just trying to help. If you feel 'wronged' then go ahead & keep argiung. If you were to put a link to the GL quotes thats one thing but to basically say 'this is how it is so shut up & deal with it' is not being helpful or even courtious. And I will be the first to admit I get impassioned in a debate too, but I was offering a peace pipe, feel free to pass it to someone else.

That's bashing?

"Hard to see, the Dark Side is."

That pretty much covers that.

And it is some people's opinion, JP, but not all, and it is really not relevant. Sorry if you don't like my style, but when people argue against GL's own facts, that is how I am going to be about it.

Then please close

Yes the dark side clouds their vision, but if that's so, how can they ever be able to determine if the force is in balance or not?