whos stronger superman or hulk??

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black_goku#1
i think after a heated batttle hulk would win cuz he just keeps getting stronger wink

hotsauce6548
umm... why do you have goku?

black_goku#1
dont really know. still need an opinion however. i personally belive that
the hulk would whoop all of them just thought id make it interesting. did you not read my screen name

black_goku#1
uh wait didnt sopes and jolly green fight?

dizzyblondegirl
of course superman would win he is the ultamite

black_goku#1
um are you sure?? hulk coould surpass supes if he was pissed enough!!

Jason8200
Ok I said this once already... There is no way that the Hulk could beat Superman. First of all now the Hulk is smarter and not a raging beast. He has Bruce Banners mind inside of the Hulks body. Second off, Superman already beat the Hulk when they fought right before the Amalgam Universe was formed. The two heroes got moved out into the desert somewhere and the Hulk punched Superman. Then Superman came back and knocked the Hulk through a mountain. The Hulk never got up. Also the Hulk gets stronger the madder he gets but there is only so much anger anyone or anything can get. So Superman actually did beat the Hulk. End of story.

dizzyblondegirl
with supermans reasoning the hulk would calm down so his powers wont last long

black_goku#1
it makes sense im just wondering. ok also in that comic when supes got hit he flew for a couple of pages. jolly green wasnt that pissed yet and one of the things with hulk is there is no limit to his anger. thus spawning more than one comic in his series.

TJEscobar
Number 1 Goku would win against all of them because well....he is Goku. When just one of your blasts can destroy a galaxy you are a bad boy. Plus he has the uncanny ability to pull a bag of tricks from his crack. Thor or Hulk would come in second because Thor is a God and we have never seen the Hulk at full power. Superman gets beat down by almost everyone.

Jason8200
TJEscobar, that was one of the mnost ignorant things I have ever read. First of all... Goku can't even survive in space on his own. Second of all... he almost died beofre due to disease. So lets recap... he is not invulnerable... he has no healing factor (he eats a magic bean), can't survive in space. no immunity to diseases, Goku is fast but not superfast, Goku's ki energy or whatever it is called diminishes quickly when he is using it. The only move Goku has that might do some damage is that huge energy spirit bomb... but do you really think the people of his earth which are oblivious to whats going on with all of them or even the people of Supermans, the Hulks, or Thors earth would ever give him the "spirit" necessary to use his sptirit bomb to beat any of them? The only hope Goku or any of the people he rolls out with would be that somehow they collect their little dragonballs and wish the DC / Marvel superheroes out of there. In my opinion Goku is a weak Japanese knockoff of Superman. Kinda like putting a Honda Civic against a Camaro z28.

Hegemon875
I don't know who's dumber TJEscobar for his painfully and downright offensively ignorant post or Jason8200 for responding to it.

black_goku#1
dudde!!!! goku would hall major butt on anyone. he is way faster than superman and um he can most definatly survive in space. he has many times before. also dude goke can blow up a planet with the blink of an eye. he has all sorts of attacks that can pulverize supes. but that wasnt even my question!! supes vs hulk!
i only have goku and thor because im new. i didnt know that i could limit my choices to two. my bad

jplatinum
First of all,
any battle between hulk and superman in the past was a popularity contest. If they were to really fight to the death, Hulk would overwhelm superman with sheer might(something that few have done to supes before). Second, Goku is leagues above superman. Goku in regular form on GT has the power to destroy half the solar system in one powered up blow,in ssj1,ssj2,ssj3 he could destroy the galaxy in one powered up blow, in ssj4 or god form( after absorbing the dragonballs) he can destroy the universe and rebuild it because he has all the power of the eternal dragon and ssj4 combined. He is slightly above superman prime except that he is way more strategic in battle, way more better at fighting, and he has more will power. Goku god form would just laugh and then speak the much much much more feeble thor and hulk out of existence. Then he would fight a bewildered superman prime for a while moving at warpspeed(many times faster than light) and then he'd just beat supes into a pulp and blow him away at only half his full power which is in the billions.

You're right. Why is Goku on this list?
Afterall, he clearly has little to even hope to challenge him. stick out tongue

TJEscobar
Originally posted by Jason8200
TJEscobar, that was one of the mnost ignorant things I have ever read. First of all... Goku can't even survive in space on his own. Second of all... he almost died beofre due to disease. So lets recap... he is not invulnerable... he has no healing factor (he eats a magic bean), can't survive in space. no immunity to diseases, Goku is fast but not superfast, Goku's ki energy or whatever it is called diminishes quickly when he is using it. The only move Goku has that might do some damage is that huge energy spirit bomb... but do you really think the people of his earth which are oblivious to whats going on with all of them or even the people of Supermans, the Hulks, or Thors earth would ever give him the "spirit" necessary to use his sptirit bomb to beat any of them? The only hope Goku or any of the people he rolls out with would be that somehow they collect their little dragonballs and wish the DC / Marvel superheroes out of there. In my opinion Goku is a weak Japanese knockoff of Superman. Kinda like putting a Honda Civic against a Camaro z28.





Ok who needs to fly in space when you can teleport anywhere in the Muiltiverse by thinking it??? Have you even watched the show?? Or are you just so obsessed with Superman that you are blinded by any hint of red, blue, and yellow? Superman may be fast and strong and all that other BS, but he can't comapre with the Saiyans. These dudes can blow up galaxies if they lose concentration over their powers. SUperman is not invulerable and has been beaten before too so you have no pt. Plus he can be stopped by a green rock. So whats more embarassing, dying in space or dying by a rock? Frieza can survive in space and survived a planet blowing up and Goku beat him into submission and that was in the first half of the show. I suggest you know your facts or else you will forced to hang a sign on your lips saying insert foot here.

DrDoom
Noone should ever eeeeever base a vs. opinion off of Marvel Vs. D.C.

It was a popularity contest plain and simple (how else would you explain Wolverine beating Lobo, or Storm crushing WW?).

That being said Goku would CRUSH everyone on that list. Period.

Also, some people don't seem to understand that the Hulk isn't at Superman/Thor-level strength as soon as he starts fighting. He is about class 70-90 strength when he starts out, but gets stronger as the fight goes on.

Superman would beat Hulk because he has the advantage in powers,speed, and reach. Having faced Doomsday, Superman knows that it would be foolish to try to slug it out with someone like him so he would use his other powers in tandem with his strength to put him down.

That being said, Hulk could beat Superman if he got really, really pissed and Superman decided to trade blows with him.

TJEscobar
Originally posted by DrDoom
Noone should ever eeeeever base a vs. opinion off of Marvel Vs. D.C.

It was a popularity contest plain and simple (how else would you explain Wolverine beating Lobo, or Storm crushing WW?).

That being said Goku would CRUSH everyone on that list. Period.

Also, some people don't seem to understand that the Hulk isn't at Superman/Thor-level strength as soon as he starts fighting. He is about class 70-90 strength when he starts out, but gets stronger as the fight goes on.

Superman would beat Hulk because he has the advantage in powers,speed, and reach. Having faced Doomsday, Superman knows that it would be foolish to try to slug it out with someone like him so he would use his other powers in tandem with his strength to put him down.

That being said, Hulk could beat Superman if he got really, really pissed and Superman decided to trade blows with him.



True but anything type of pain the Hulk takes will make him bigger, stronger and faster. It would be a very hard fight, but I would see Hulk winning as long as he wasn't taken into space or the center of the planet.

DrDoom
Superman beats Hulk 7/10 times.

Blow for blow hulk would barely win, but like I said Superman has gone down that road and wouldn't restort to that sort of thing.

Kento
roll eyes (sarcastic) First off Gokou in any form is way out of his league with even a calm hulk.

Second off Supes would win by speed blitz against Hulk. If he just stands there fighting then eventually Hulk will overpower him but he did that with Doomsday, and died so I don't think he'd go against a hulking giant like that again.

Jason8200
Ok I could care less how many dragon balls Goku shoves up his a$$. First of all I have seen the Dragonball Z and GT shows unfortunately. Goku is not immune to disease (Trunks had to save him from that disease so Goku would be around to fight the Androids) Second if you went just by the Dragonball episodes... sometimes it takes them 3 or 4 episodes to just get somewhere. Then you tried to say that Goku could beat Superman Prime? Again Goku is not invulnerable to Magic. But Superman Prime is due to a marriage with some Princess Mzylplic from the 5th dimension. Ok Goku can blink himself or whatever to anywhere in the galaxy... then why in GT does he need a spaceship to fly all over the place? Goku is also not immortal... like Superman Prime is. Goku is a good fighter, I will give you that but as far as common sense goes he is a retard. So lets comapre the two now.... Goku is a better fighter... Superman is smarter... immortal... immune to disease... and on top of that Superman Prime is atleast 1000x stronger than Superman and immune to magic... not to mention Superman Primes GL ring, which is just asw powerful as his will... Then there is the whole part of Superman Prime going through Heaven and Hell... regardless if he fouhgt his way through or not... he still did it... Goku has to ask permission and is granted a day or 2 of life... Goku is strong but a CHEAP IMMITATION of japan trying to copy Superman.

Kento
Gokou better fight? Yea right....Supes knows a lot more styles of fighting then even Batman, and current supes has 1000 yrs of fighting experience along with Wonder Woman.

Jason8200
I was just giving Goku the benefit of the doubt. I know Supes would kill him.

Mainstream
Supes would take Goku....Goku is over rated...silversurfer this dude would beat them both together though

PunisherFan33
superman is a pussy

Jason8200
Yea I bet Punisher could stand up to Superman.... I bet Lois Lane could beat the Punisher....

But this is a Superman vs Hulk post.... Superman would win.

The Hulk's anger is overrated.
1. Hulk was KO'd by Spiderman
2. Hulk was beaten by Dr. Octapus
3. Admited he could not breathe in space when he fought Gladiator. And also one time he blacked out when he jumped in space and was once knocked out and fell deep into the ocean and had to swallow the bubbles that he had exhaled as he swam back towards the surface of the water.
4. Was KO'd by some kind of gas that Batman had.

Then in the DC Marvel Crossover before Amalgam Superman beat the Hulk. One punch.

THE END

DrDoom
Originally posted by Kento
Gokou better fight? Yea right....Supes knows a lot more styles of fighting then even Batman, and current supes has 1000 yrs of fighting experience along with Wonder Woman.

Superman...knowing more fighting styles than Batman?.....hysterical

Yes, Superman has 1000 years of experience fighting monsters and demons with WW--so what? I'm willing to bet none of them teleported and knew MA.

Until I see a comic where Superman:

-Travels anywhere instantly
-Says he could destroy a planet/galaxy with his heat vision

I'll stick to what I originally said: Goku would eat Superman for breakfast. Superman is one of my all-time favorites, but I know Goku would whoop him.

Someone brought up Superman Prime. Superman Prime > Goku, but the topic creator didn't make a SP Vs. Hulk topic. It's about Supes Vs. Hulk (with Goku inexplicably thrown in).

Though I never did understand why Superman never read many books about MA--he could read them at superspeed and his memory is excellent. So far the only hand-to-hand training he got was from Mongul.

Kento
In JLA #41, Superman absorbed the energy of the Mageddon Warhead, a device capable, at the minimum, of vaporizing half a galaxy. Writer Grant Morrison intended Mageddon to be "the primordial annihilator" capable of literally destroying everything. Visibly distressed by the absorption, Superman still suffered no harm whatsoever, and even smiled afterwards.

If that tells you he can't take blast from Gokou nothing will.

Lex 2000 special: Superman made the trip from Earth to Saturn in well under 4 minutes. By comparison, light takes about 19 minutes to make this trip.

And you think Gokou can fly that fast? Instant Transmission yes but he can't move that fast.

All taht was post crisis Supes also

DrDoom
Wasn't that electro Supes that absorbed the power? I don't think it was regular Superman.

I never said he couldn't take a blast from Goku, I said he couldn't match the same level of power Goku has. Plus, if it was regular Superman, then Goku's blast would kill him unless he got out of the way.


He made to Earth it in 4 mins...if they raced, Goku would already have teleported to Earth and ordered a Big Mac by then.


I'm still laughing about the "knows more styles of fighting than even Batman" part though. Great stuff.

Kento
If they raced yea Gokou would win. But Gokou can't move fast so he wouldn't be able to touch Superman. He can IT anywhere he wants but he ain't gonna be punching fast enough to hit supes, and won't be able to dodge him.

I don't know if he was Electric Supes or not in that issue cause I just learned of some stuff he did. I do know he wasn't Electric supes while fighting Imperiex, and he took a blast from it, or one of it's drones it might have been, and it was said to be able to destroy a solar system from what I heard.

DrDoom
Wow, where did you hear that? I have the whole series and the only two times Imperiex blasted Superman were:

-When he and Doomsday confronted him, Doomsday was burned to the bone, and Superman would've died too, if not for Darkseid's boomtube.

-When Kismet/the Stranger augmented his powers he was able to take a blast, but Kismet is DC's equivalent of Eternity--the universe personified.

Kento
huh Really?

blink Well can't Darkseid's Omega Beams destroy planets? And do you know if it was Pre or Post that was able to stop the Omega Beams with his laser vision.

moshtitan
hmmm...nice pick of a forum to put this in seeing as most here are superman fanboys. it is true that supes strength is greater than the hulk to begin with, but hulk does get stronger. in the only true, non fan voted comic book, hulk and supes go toe to toe and its pretty even. hulks no pushover. he knocks the wind out of supes, and that more than you can say of most. i have no doubt in my mind if the fight were to go on long enough, or the hulk be put through enough, he would eventually get stronger than ol' red an blue. supe does have a cap on his strength, and dc and marvel work on completely different levels. that must be taken into consideration.

now as far as goku and superman....goku. hes far more pwerfull, faster and a much better fighter. "But Gokou can't move fast so he wouldn't be able to touch Superman. He can IT anywhere he wants but he ain't gonna be punching fast enough to hit supes, and won't be able to dodge him." are you retarded? you also said that if they raced goku would win. this completly contradicts your later statement, seeing as how the DB characters fight at the same speed they fly. goku could WALK circles around supes.

Kento
Racing...IT would get anywhere before Supes could. In a fight IT would only be able to dodge he cannot punch as fast as he can teleport. His punches are way slower, and his normal speed is way slower. That's why he uses IT.

moshtitan
*sigh*....ok, what if he teleported with a fist to the face.

Kento
And how much would that hurt anybody? Moveing faster then u can think or move in general, and just having ur arm out. And if he went to punch then teleport one would think that he'd appear someplace before his arm has even moved.

DrDoom
Originally posted by Kento
huh Really?

blink Well can't Darkseid's Omega Beams destroy planets? And do you know if it was Pre or Post that was able to stop the Omega Beams with his laser vision.

I don't know about planets, but he can vaporize basically anyone with them.

I don't know about Pre--cuz he and Darkseid were on an ENTIRELY different level back then.

Post...yeah he could (sadly) he even beat the crap out of Darkseid before.

Darkseid has been nerfed beyond recognition Post-crisis--even more than Superman.

Kento
Yea I heard Darkseid was uber powerful, and could possibly whup up on Thanos or at least equal him in power before Crisis.

DrDoom
I swear Darkseid should sue DC.

Kento
*laughs* Yea that would be a funny site.

Could his Omega Beams always do anything he wanted them to do? Cause from what I seen he put Cyborg Superman into a little sphere, put Slo'Bo into the future as a statue, and turned Secret Human with them.

>.> And would have been alot cooler if he had actually killed Supergirl with them also in the Batman/Superman comic.

DrDoom
Nah, it's good that they finally let the REAL Supergirl make a post-crisis debut. I'm hoping she'll join the Titans.

I know his Omega beams could lock into someones bio-siganture 9so they would track them) and vaporize or teleport them, but I don't know if they could do much else.

well, besides when he trapped Cyborg in that ball in Hunter/Prey

Kento
Well during the very last Young Justice issue they also turned Secret mortal, and turned Slo'Bo into a statue, and put him in the 853rd century. So they can do a lotta stuff.

Cosmic Cube
Hulk has lifted 150 billion tons. That's way above Supe's max. Post-crisis Superman hasn't done anything that compares.

And let's not forget the time Hulk severly kicks Superman's ass in a crossover.

Heracles
One thing I agree with the comment about crossover comics.

Superman will never be beaten one on one in a DC/Marvel crossover cause theres no way in hell DC will let there Icon get his clock cleaned.

Other than that I'm not going to debate cause I hate DC vs Marvel fights DC characters have always been on a different level than Marvel ones power wise so its just to hard to gauge.

TheFilmProphet
Originally posted by Heracles


True,

TheFanboy
Superman without a doubt.

dubefan
this is almost as god a question as who would win in a fight between agent smith and T1000 well superman is clearl stronger, hes the man of steel and he can effortlesly lift a train were as the hulk shows struggling so there and hes a freakin alien plus the hulk shows fatigue from time to time, superman only gets tired when kryptonite is in the picture or when he fought those guys who came from the crystal in space in spiderman 2, so ya superman al the way

MayhemSymbiote
HULK is the Strongest one there is wink

dubefan
negative on that responce, can the hulk throw superman into the sun????????? thats what i thought

Mr Parker
Superman is.They had a DC/marvel teamup once with spidey and supes and during the story supes fought the hulk and the hulk knocked supes clear across the ocean when supes wasnt expecting a punch from him but then supes came back and was ready and prepared for the hulk and told spidey that he could handle him now.That he was caught off guard before but now that he was prepared nothing could stop him and whenever he is prepared and does not want to move,nothing can move him which turned out to be true because the hulk kept pounding him unable to move supes and eventually got tired and wore down and transformed back to doc banner.

Mr Parker
Originally posted by Jason8200
Ok I said this once already... There is no way that the Hulk could beat Superman. First of all now the Hulk is smarter and not a raging beast. He has Bruce Banners mind inside of the Hulks body. Second off, Superman already beat the Hulk when they fought right before the Amalgam Universe was formed. The two heroes got moved out into the desert somewhere and the Hulk punched Superman. Then Superman came back and knocked the Hulk through a mountain. The Hulk never got up. Also the Hulk gets stronger the madder he gets but there is only so much anger anyone or anything can get. So Superman actually did beat the Hulk. End of story.


Hmmm I never saw that story.I would sure like to see it though. smile

Jason8200
I dont know which crossover you are talking about but Hulk never beat Superman up in a crossover.
The first time they met Superman got caught off guard but then battled him for a long time until Hulk got fatigued and ran out of juice and went back to Bruce Banner.
The last time they met... Marvel was pitted against DC. Superman says I hate to do this but I can't let my universe be destroyed. Knocks Hulk's green a$$ out in one punch. When something big in on the line Superman will go all out. Usually though he won't... he holds back because of his vow to never take a life. If the stakes were the high... Hulk would't stand a chance.

Mainstream
Originally posted by MayhemSymbiote
HULK is the Strongest one there is wink

true. big grin

Avalonofthewind
Supes wins. I remember when Spidey received the power cosmic, he punched the hulk into space, who was scared for his life because he couldn't breathe. If I remember correctly, Spidey felt bad and brought hmi back to earth.

Supes could easily do the same.

Angry hulk can life a mountain. Supes moves planets.

dubefan
thank you finally someone whos on my side rock and roll go superman

Red Superfly
The concept behind Superman was always super-natural, he isn't truly bound to conventional physics, because he, even post-crisis Supes, is way more fantasy based than Hulk. He only has one weakness, for instance, whereas Marvel characters are usually based on "exaggerated realism" rather than complete fantasy.

Hulk is fantastical, but on a more scientific level. Such as, his size increases with rage, and he gets more powerful, logical. His origin is science based, and he is also human. He is still based on realistic parameters but on a human and Earthly level. In my opinion that makes him a better character, due to the fact Stan Lee made him a character that teeters on the brink of rediculousness, but doesn't go overboard like Supes, but thats not what we are discussing here.

They are two totally different concepts, that are successful because they both work within their contexts. I hate crossovers mainly because of this. It's an unfair comparison. The way Superman is constructed as a character, he would annihilate The Hulk.

That's why I don't like crossovers. Theres always a character thats better than the best. Supes would destroy most of Marvels stock single handedly, because Marvel do their characters one way, and DC do theirs another way.

dubefan
wow that was a really good explanation i do believe at one point my head cocked sidewa and my eyes went cross eyed but wow its good too meet a fellow geek who ix as wel spoken as myself that based on exagerated realism points,,,,,,, stroke of genious i salute you with a dancing banana

Mr Parker
Originally posted by Jason8200
I dont know which crossover you are talking about but Hulk never beat Superman up in a crossover.
The first time they met Superman got caught off guard but then battled him for a long time until Hulk got fatigued and ran out of juice and went back to Bruce Banner.
The last time they met... Marvel was pitted against DC. Superman says I hate to do this but I can't let my universe be destroyed. Knocks Hulk's green a$$ out in one punch. When something big in on the line Superman will go all out. Usually though he won't... he holds back because of his vow to never take a life. If the stakes were the high... Hulk would't stand a chance.

yeah.thats why supes easily wins.

dubefan
or maybe its because hes just superman, i mean hes the man of freain steel

Cosmic Cube
Man of steel? Hulk crushes steel.

Superman knocks out the weak ass Professor Hulk. Wanna talk crossovers? In the 1999 crossover when he fights Savage Hulk, Superman gets his ass handed to him severely. Hulk throws Superman into space.

Hulk has destroyed planets twice the size of earth. Hulk has sent shockwaves across the globe, and he has punched the earth so hard he sent it out of it's orbit. Hulk has moved entire planets with strength alone. He doesn't need flight to assist him like Superman does.

Hulk has limitless increasing strength. The madder he gets, and the longer he fights, and the stronger he gets. He isn't a human, so he has no limit to his rage. Superman may be stronger at first, but in time Hulk will be a billion times stronger than Superman.

Avalonofthewind
Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
Man of steel? Hulk crushes steel.

Superman knocks out the weak ass Professor Hulk. Wanna talk crossovers? In the 1999 crossover when he fights Savage Hulk, Superman gets his ass handed to him severely. Hulk throws Superman into space.

Hulk has destroyed planets twice the size of earth. Hulk has sent shockwaves across the globe, and he has punched the earth so hard he sent it out of it's orbit. Hulk has moved entire planets with strength alone. He doesn't need flight to assist him like Superman does.

Hulk has limitless increasing strength. The madder he gets, and the longer he fights, and the stronger he gets. He isn't a human, so he has no limit to his rage. Superman may be stronger at first, but in time Hulk will be a billion times stronger than Superman.

Seems like everytime I see you post something about the Hulk, it gets more and more ridiculous and less credible... now, did Hulk go SSJ3 or 4 for all these feats? laughing

dubefan
ya really i havent yet seen anything that disavows a point ive made just the complete opposite, the hulk would crumble to superman because superman is stronger than the hulk plan and simple

Mainstream
unless superman gets stronger when he gets pissed..Supes isn't stronger than mr. Banner.

dubefan
wait what? brce banner s just a man, superman could tear him apart before he became the hulk so that would be the end of it

Mainstream
I meant the hulk...but could Superman beat Bruce Banner in chess...hmmmmmmmmmm.

Cosmic Cube
Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
Seems like everytime I see you post something about the Hulk, it gets more and more ridiculous and less credible... now, did Hulk go SSJ3 or 4 for all these feats? laughing

Need evidence?

Here's Hulk smashing a planetoid twice the size of earth...

Mainstream
could supes do dat...I don tink so. imsmilin

Cosmic Cube
Here's Hulk being reduced to a skeleton, and regenerating. Notice all he says is "ouch."

Cosmic Cube
Throwing a gem to the very core of the planet...

Mainstream
Hulk is like a green jesus or something spjesus

Cosmic Cube
Moving tectonic plates with bare hands...

Cosmic Cube
This just looks cool...

Cosmic Cube
Throwing Superman into space...

Cosmic Cube
...

Jason8200
Ok nice pictures... Ill find some of my old comics and scan them and put them on here...

Cosmic Cube
Try not to use pre-crisis Superman pics. Let's keep this post-crisis. I would like to see when post crisis Superman moves a planet.

dubefan
im pretty superman could accoplish that i mean heis superman and hes been destroying asteroids for like ever s yews superman could do that

Mainstream
or not.

dubefan
man its superman, what hasnt he destroyed??????the hulk would be like nothing and that would be the end of it

Mainstream
ugh

Cosmic Cube
Originally posted by dubefan
im pretty superman could accoplish that i mean heis superman and hes been destroying asteroids for like ever s yews superman could do that

He hasn't. The fact that Superman has not performed a feat of greater strength proves that Hulk is the stronger. Superman has limits to his strength. Hulk has no limit to the level of strength he can attain. Superman's stronger at first, but in a few seconds Hulk will pass him by a mile.
Originally posted by dubefan
man its superman, what hasnt he destroyed??????the hulk would be like nothing and that would be the end of it

What hasn't he destroyed? A planetoid twice the size of earth. Adamantium. The Asgardian Destroyer. Hulk has done all of these, and greater still. To my knowldge the most Post-Crisis Supes has done is move the moon.

In the past stupid crossovers, Savage Hulk has posed quite a threat to Superman. Superman is not omnipotent. He can be beaten by the raw limitless strength of the Hulk.

dubefan
ok look superman is the strongest man in the universe and hes smart, hulk is dumb, superman would use his intellect and then use his strength end of story bye bye hulk

Cosmic Cube
I didn't know this was a fight. Fights belong on the vs thread

Hulk isn't dumb anymore.

Superman is the strongest man in the universe? Say's who?

dubefan
hes the man of steel, you know any one else with the nickname man of steel???? with the exception of collosus cause he acctually turns into steel

Cosmic Cube
Do you know anyone nicknamed "the strongest one there is?"

Avalonofthewind
Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
Need evidence?

Here's Hulk smashing a planetoid twice the size of earth...

That thing barely looks the size of a city block.

Avalonofthewind
Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
Here's Hulk being reduced to a skeleton, and regenerating. Notice all he says is "ouch."

Hmm, makes me wonder what heat vision would do.

By the way...Supes has never destroyed things like that because that is not his character. He has no reason to destroy planets. Does that mean he can't? Not at all.

dubefan
man its superman thats all i gotta say he beat up a giant computer

Mainstream
oh wow a gaint computer.....scary...glare

dubefan
hay that giant computer killed 2 people and only lous gosset jr could stop it, but superman had to destroy it before he could debug it haha

joesha28
Originally posted by dubefan
ok look superman is the strongest man in the universe and hes smart, hulk is dumb, superman would use his intellect and then use his strength end of story bye bye hulk

Well, I don't think Superman is that smart. I recollect Batman saying to Spawn "you're as dumb as clark (superman)".

joesha28
Hey how come the poll is closed

dubefan
poll? yes but still i think superman is the strongest thing in the universe so ya superman in my mind would win in a fight

Cosmic Cube
Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
Hmm, makes me wonder what heat vision would do.

By the way...Supes has never destroyed things like that because that is not his character. He has no reason to destroy planets. Does that mean he can't? Not at all.

That isn't heat in the picture, its a matter repulsion ray created by Vector. Superman's heat vision would not have the same effect. Superman has tried using his heat vision on Hulk. It has had absolutely no effect.

This isn't just a planet, it's a planetoid twice the size of earth. You say Superman could do it? In post-crisis Superman's 20-30 years of existence, he hasn't surpassed Hulk's feats of strength. Therefore Hulk is stronger.

Hulk has proven in all of the images I've posted that he is stronger than Superman; no SSJ3 or 4. smile

Can't argue facts. Hulk is stronger.

Cosmic Cube
Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
That thing barely looks the size of a city block.

Obviously, the entire planetoid isn't in the frame. If it were, Hulk wouldn't be visible; he'd be a speck.

Cosmic Cube
Originally posted by dubefan
poll? yes but still i think superman is the strongest thing in the universe so ya superman in my mind would win in a fight

You're entitled to your opinion, however clouded and biased it may be.

Cosmic Cube
Here are a couple more pics.

Originally posted by dubefan
man its superman thats all i gotta say he beat up a giant computer

Cosmic Cube
Fighting celestials...

Cosmic Cube
Here's a more complete picture of Hulk smashing the planetoid. The entire planetoid is not in the picture.

Cosmic Cube
Overcoming the matter anti-matter attraction...

Anyone who knows anything about physics knows that the force of attraction between matter and anti-matter is irresistable. This feat is roughly equivilant to lifting the mass of a neutron star.

dubefan
oh no ive gone cross eyed

Cosmic Cube
lol, this guy is a lunatic.

The Last Son
You are all idiots. Superman would whip the sh*t out of the Hulk. In fact he already did in the DC/Marvel Crossover. After all he is SUPERMAN!

Cosmic Cube
You are a fanboy. Hulk whips the shit out of Superman in the 1999 crossover. Hulk is stronger too.

Avalonofthewind
Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
That isn't heat in the picture, its a matter repulsion ray created by Vector. Superman's heat vision would not have the same effect. Superman has tried using his heat vision on Hulk. It has had absolutely no effect.

This isn't just a planet, it's a planetoid twice the size of earth. You say Superman could do it? In post-crisis Superman's 20-30 years of existence, he hasn't surpassed Hulk's feats of strength. Therefore Hulk is stronger.

Hulk has proven in all of the images I've posted that he is stronger than Superman; no SSJ3 or 4. smile

Can't argue facts. Hulk is stronger.

Hulk is nowhere near as invulnerable as supes. His heatvision can get as hot as the sun or hotter nowadays. In an all out battle he will affect the Hulk..there would be no healing when there is nothing left.

Avalonofthewind
Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
Need evidence?

Here's Hulk smashing a planetoid twice the size of earth...

What issue is this...looking at the pic shows nothing of its size...maybe its just a bad drawing.

Lord Ryugen
In a purely physical sense The Hulk can surpass Superman in sheer strength. In a fight however Superman wins due to the massive range in powers he possesses.

Hulk=more strength

Superman=more power

Cosmic Cube
Superman is more powerful, that I will concede.

Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
Hulk is nowhere near as invulnerable as supes. His heatvision can get as hot as the sun or hotter nowadays. In an all out battle he will affect the Hulk..there would be no healing when there is nothing left.

Hulk has withstood heats hotter than stars. Superman's heat vision is not as hot as a star.

Hulk is more durable than Superman. Hulk has an insane regenerating factor; He has reformed after being reduced to scattered gamma irradiated molecules. The angrier he becomes, the more durable he gets, and the faster he regenerates. Every blow he takes from Superman will heal. Superman has no healing factor. His wounds will be permanent.

That pic is from Marvel Comics Presents issue #52. The planetoid is specifically said to have "greater than double the planet earth's mass."

The heaviest thing Post-Crisis Superman has moved is WarWorld, which is only the size of Pluto, and he had to charge up in the sun for quite some time before he did so.

Superman has the edge in a fight, but Hulk is definately stronger than him.

Lord Ryugen
Precisely, The Hulk has more strength than any of the other three, but he can't fly, has no ranged attacks. and is a lot slower. In an arm wrestling match he'll beat them all in a fight the other three take him.

dubefan
i like how that guy thinks, and finally someone whos on my side of the fence rock and roll

Cosmic Cube
I think Superman can beat Hulk as well. He's a lot more versatile.

I just don't think he will win 100% of the time.

dubefan
wel ya i mean everyone makes mistakes, and im sure supermans made mistakes in his career, but the point still stays superman would win

Cosmic Cube
lol...

Mainstream
maybe superman would win...he's better......not!

Cosmic Cube
Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
lol...

So you mean Hulk can only win if Superman slips up? That's not quite how I see it.

dubefan
ya man superman would just dominate hes too fast

wannabe

dubefan
maybe instead of apponents who are strong how about ones that are smart, i mean the joker wasnt powerfull he was just cunnng and hes by far the best villian ever and thats what we need these days, put the brute strength away and bring us the smarts

Cosmic Cube
I'll talk about that on the Wolvie v Hulk thread.

wannabe
Yeah, tell them dubefan yes

The Last Son
All these are good points, but look at the villans Superman has to face. Could the hulk beat brainiac, Doomsday, Darkseid, what about the parasite, Lex Luthor? Superman has faced many villans with not only strength but also intelligence. There is more than one way to be strong. Not just physically.

Avalonofthewind
Originally posted by The Last Son
All these are good points, but look at the villans Superman has to face. Could the hulk beat brainiac, Doomsday, Darkseid, what about the parasite, Lex Luthor? Superman has faced many villans with not only strength but also intelligence. There is more than one way to be strong. Not just physically.

Don't forget Dominus, Cyborg Supes, Lobo, Zod, GoG, Eradicator,
Mr Mlzplk, Asmodel....

Avalonofthewind
Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
Superman is more powerful, that I will concede.



Hulk has withstood heats hotter than stars. Superman's heat vision is not as hot as a star.

Hulk is more durable than Superman. Hulk has an insane regenerating factor; He has reformed after being reduced to scattered gamma irradiated molecules. The angrier he becomes, the more durable he gets, and the faster he regenerates. Every blow he takes from Superman will heal. Superman has no healing factor. His wounds will be permanent.

That pic is from Marvel Comics Presents issue #52. The planetoid is specifically said to have "greater than double the planet earth's mass."

The heaviest thing Post-Crisis Superman has moved is WarWorld, which is only the size of Pluto, and he had to charge up in the sun for quite some time before he did so.

Superman has the edge in a fight, but Hulk is definately stronger than him.

Dude, Supes heat vision is hotter than a star. He shaves with his heat vision. Supposedly, He heated a planet with it recently from across a galaxy(still have to check facts on that though) that combined with microscopic vision would do the Hulk in. Since you are being reasonable though, so will I. I doubt Supes would do that...why? It's not really in his character. What does that mean? Better fight for all of us.
Strength wise? The jury is still out on that one..but I will admit, you have made the Hulk seem like a much more interesting character than I previously thought.

Miss_Faye
Superman. smile

Lord Ryugen
Originally posted by The Last Son
All these are good points, but look at the villans Superman has to face. Could the hulk beat brainiac, Doomsday, Darkseid, what about the parasite, Lex Luthor? Superman has faced many villans with not only strength but also intelligence. There is more than one way to be strong. Not just physically.

Look at the first time Supes fought DD, it was a slugfest. He practically used no other powers, and it got him killed. It's the same as the Hulk except worse. If kal goes in fists swinging like he seems to do when he finds a really strong guy, Hulk's going to keep coming back. Not only that but he's going to get stronger from the anger thats welling up inside him. And as the fight drags on he's going to get bigger and angrier, and I don't care who you are that gives the Hulk a massive intimadation factor. Hulk probably can't beat Brainiac, due to his intelligence. And if supes uses the brains he shows in fights with him and Lex he'll win but if it goes to a fist fight he goes down eventually.

wannabe
Originally posted by The Last Son
All these are good points, but look at the villans Superman has to face. Could the hulk beat brainiac, Doomsday, Darkseid, what about the parasite, Lex Luthor? Superman has faced many villans with not only strength but also intelligence. There is more than one way to be strong. Not just physically.

I just wanted to express my desire for a "somtimes less is more"-philosophy that emphasizes on good storytelling in BOTH comic-universes! I guess over the time I have become tired of all these SuperMegaUltraHyperBestAtEverything-Dudes and their End-Of-World scenarios.
(god, I sound like an old man embarrasment )

lukester
OK, lets put it this way:

Hulk is the strongest being on all time. bar none. nuff said.

Thor is a GOD, so he could muster the strength to defeat Hulk if he fought his ass off. He would probably need his Hammer though.

Superman is an alien from Krypron, who posesses almost unlimited strength. Superman could defeat Thor in battle, but only by using his other powers (as seen in Marvel/DC crossover) Thor and Superman are about as strong as each other, but superman would win a fight between the two.

Hulk is stronger than both of them.

Superman is the most durable out of the 3.

Thor has potentail to defeat both of them.

Mainstream
Originally posted by lukester
OK, lets put it this way:

Hulk is the strongest being on all time. bar none. nuff said.

Thor is a GOD, so he could muster the strength to defeat Hulk if he fought his ass off. He would probably need his Hammer though.

Superman is an alien from Krypron, who posesses almost unlimited strength. Superman could defeat Thor in battle, but only by using his other powers (as seen in Marvel/DC crossover) Thor and Superman are about as strong as each other, but superman would win a fight between the two.

Hulk is stronger than both of them.

Superman is the most durable out of the 3.

Thor has potentail to defeat both of them.

I agree with everything but the Superman and Thor stuff....Thor would win.

wannabe

Mainstream
True...Hulk grew back from cells...CELLS! Supes can't do that.

Cosmic Cube
Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
Dude, Supes heat vision is hotter than a star. He shaves with his heat vision. Supposedly, He heated a planet with it recently from across a galaxy(still have to check facts on that though) that combined with microscopic vision would do the Hulk in. Since you are being reasonable though, so will I. I doubt Supes would do that...why? It's not really in his character. What does that mean? Better fight for all of us.
Strength wise? The jury is still out on that one..but I will admit, you have made the Hulk seem like a much more interesting character than I previously thought.

That sounds profoundly "pre-crisis." Current Superman's heat vision is not hotter than a star, I'm sure of it.

Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
Don't forget Dominus, Cyborg Supes, Lobo, Zod, GoG, Eradicator,
Mr Mlzplk, Asmodel....

Superman doesn't face Asmodel; the entire JLA did. If Superman tried to fight Asmodel by himself, he would get annihilated, and you know it. Superman never faces Mxyzptlk. Mxy's powerful but he doesn't fight; he only plays pranks, and that's a well known fact. There is no way in hell Superman could beat Mxyzptlk if he became malevolent. Zod is basically an evil Superman. The only difference is Zod doesn't hold back.
Lobo? Superman got his ass kicked by Lobo. Cyborg Superman? Pfft... Thing beats him in a crossover.

Originally posted by The Last Son
All these are good points, but look at the villans Superman has to face. Could the hulk beat brainiac, Doomsday, Darkseid, what about the parasite, Lex Luthor? Superman has faced many villans with not only strength but also intelligence. There is more than one way to be strong. Not just physically.

Braniac - Not so sure.

Doomsday - Yes

Darkseid - No

Parasite - Not sure.

Lex Luthor - Positively.

You're right. There is more than one way to be strong. Superman is more powerful than Hulk, but Hulk is physically stronger. I'm not saying that Hulk will kick Superman's ass, or anything to that effect, but facts prove that Hulk is the physically stronger of the two.

Sentry
Sentry's probably stronger than either one of them.

Sentry... The third greatest Superman rip off.

Mr. Majestic is number 1, and Supreme is number 2. All 3 of them are stronger than current Supes and the Hulk.

Buwahahahhahahahaha!!! laughing

Sentry
Sorry for that post above. I let my inner fanboy influence my post. Back to the topic, Physically, Hulk is stronger than supes, but Supes if fully charged can probably surpass the Hulk's full strength. If the Hulk has a limit.

lukester
... Ok, Hulk is MORE durable than supes.

Cosmic Cube
Originally posted by Sentry
...Supes if fully charged can probably surpass the Hulk's full strength. If the Hulk has a limit.

Which he doesn't, and I have proven mutliple times. Hulk doesn't have a "full strength," and if he did, it would be a hell of a lot more than Superman's.

Lord Ryugen
Techinically Hulk must have some limit, but since that limit should be about equal to the entire power of the universe he draws his strength from (not sure if that's true) said limit will be goddam jaw dropping.

Jason8200
Hulk does have a limit... any being can only get so mad. There has been a couple times where he has gotten tired or had to revert back to Bruce Banner. He can't just go ok I am more mad now than I was 5 seconds ago... uh oh I just got madder... oh sh#t!!!! I just got even madder... AHHHHH NOW I AM MADDER!!!!! MORE MAD NOW!!!! Watch Out!!! It happened again!!!! I found a way to get more mad!!!! Seriously think about this kind of stuff before you post.

What are you talking about drawing it from the entire Universe? Have you ever read a Hulk comic?

black_goku#1
Originally posted by Jason8200
Hulk does have a limit... any being can only get so mad. There has been a couple times where he has gotten tired or had to revert back to Bruce Banner. He can't just go ok I am more mad now than I was 5 seconds ago... uh oh I just got madder... oh sh#t!!!! I just got even madder... AHHHHH NOW I AM MADDER!!!!! MORE MAD NOW!!!! Watch Out!!! It happened again!!!! I found a way to get more mad!!!! Seriously think about this kind of stuff before you post.

What are you talking about drawing it from the entire Universe? Have you ever read a Hulk comic?


laughing heh heh heh heh... laughing ah Haaa haaaa HAAAAAA!!!! eek!argh Ah haaa haa haaaa heee hee snort laughingeh heh heh no expression sad confused embarrasment im sorry that was great

ok you have almost swayed my vote from hulk to supes. mad and i hate supes!!

Lord Ryugen
Originally posted by Jason8200
Hulk does have a limit... any being can only get so mad. There has been a couple times where he has gotten tired or had to revert back to Bruce Banner. He can't just go ok I am more mad now than I was 5 seconds ago... uh oh I just got madder... oh sh#t!!!! I just got even madder... AHHHHH NOW I AM MADDER!!!!! MORE MAD NOW!!!! Watch Out!!! It happened again!!!! I found a way to get more mad!!!! Seriously think about this kind of stuff before you post.

What are you talking about drawing it from the entire Universe? Have you ever read a Hulk comic?

Hey dude I'm just writing what I heard, I don't know if it's true but apparently the Hulks ever increasing strength comes from a universe he's connected to that was created when he became the Hulk. Wether or not this is fact is not known to me. And as for a limit to how angry he can get I've yet to see that happen, by any account you're right Jason he should have a limit to how much anger he can have but as far as I'm aware he doesn't. If I'm wrong then I'm wrong but as far as I know this is truth.

IceWithin
Well Thor cuz he's a god, but after that I'd say... Superman then Hulk, Goku's gay stick out tongue

lukester
Yup Goku's gay, I'm with you on that one buddy.

Lord Ryugen
He does suck a bit i suppose but hey no ones perfect.

Cosmic Cube
Originally posted by Jason8200
Hulk does have a limit... any being can only get so mad. There has been a couple times where he has gotten tired or had to revert back to Bruce Banner. He can't just go ok I am more mad now than I was 5 seconds ago... uh oh I just got madder... oh sh#t!!!! I just got even madder... AHHHHH NOW I AM MADDER!!!!! MORE MAD NOW!!!! Watch Out!!! It happened again!!!! I found a way to get more mad!!!! Seriously think about this kind of stuff before you post.

What are you talking about drawing it from the entire Universe? Have you ever read a Hulk comic?

When have you seen Hulk get tired and consequently revert to Banner? Did this happen in the same comic Superman punches Galactus? I really wish you'd stop making up lies.

Obviously, you haven't read many Hulk comics. It has been said countless times that Hulk's strength and anger has no limitations. The Beyonder himself has said that Hulk is an "infinity of power." Stop comparing Hulk to human emotion. They aren't equivalent. You should learn about the character before you post. Hulk's strength has no limitations, period.

OtterVomit
The only way is for Superman to calm him down somehow.

Redwolf
Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
Hulk has lifted 150 billion tons. That's way above Supe's max. Post-crisis Superman hasn't done anything that compares.

And let's not forget the time Hulk severly kicks Superman's ass in a crossover.

You are a fool, current post crisis Superman can push the moon. The Hulk has never done anything that compares to Superman's feats.

Hulk didn't kick Superman's ass in a crossover. There have been three crossovers. Pre-crisis Superman vs Hulk, Hulk was punching Supes with his best and Superman wouldn't move. The second battle was voted by the fans in a DC vs Marvel Crossover, of course Superman won. (Doesn't count though since it was voted on). The recent battle was the 1999 Superman vs the Incredible Hulk. Again Hulk didn't "beat" Superman. Show me where he beat Superman, and throwing someone out of earth's orbit doesn't count. Since Superman can fly and hold his breath for a long time. The only way for Hulk to beat Superman would be for:

A. Superman beaten to unconciousness

B. Killed

Neither of which happened.

Redwolf
Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
Superman is more powerful, that I will concede.



Hulk has withstood heats hotter than stars. Superman's heat vision is not as hot as a star.

Hulk is more durable than Superman. Hulk has an insane regenerating factor; He has reformed after being reduced to scattered gamma irradiated molecules. The angrier he becomes, the more durable he gets, and the faster he regenerates. Every blow he takes from Superman will heal. Superman has no healing factor. His wounds will be permanent.

That pic is from Marvel Comics Presents issue #52. The planetoid is specifically said to have "greater than double the planet earth's mass."

The heaviest thing Post-Crisis Superman has moved is WarWorld, which is only the size of Pluto, and he had to charge up in the sun for quite some time before he did so.

Superman has the edge in a fight, but Hulk is definately stronger than him.



Superman does have a healing factor. No where near the Hulks range but he does have one.

Redwolf
Oh by the way, Superman can also get more powerful the more stressed he gets.

Since I'm not a "well known member" I can't link this so I'll have to copy what is written in a Superman comic.

Adventures of Superman #636

Bad guy to Lex Luthor.

"Your theory was correct. His emotional state correlates to fluctuations in his solar storage. The more stress he's under, the more energy he retains from the sun."

Cosmic Cube
Originally posted by Redwolf
You are a fool, current post crisis Superman can push the moon. The Hulk has never done anything that compares to Superman's feats.

Hulk didn't kick Superman's ass in a crossover. There have been three crossovers. Pre-crisis Superman vs Hulk, Hulk was punching Supes with his best and Superman wouldn't move. The second battle was voted by the fans in a DC vs Marvel Crossover, of course Superman won. (Doesn't count though since it was voted on). The recent battle was the 1999 Superman vs the Incredible Hulk. Again Hulk didn't "beat" Superman. Show me where he beat Superman, and throwing someone out of earth's orbit doesn't count. Since Superman can fly and hold his breath for a long time. The only way for Hulk to beat Superman would be for:

A. Superman beaten to unconciousness

B. Killed

Neither of which happened.

You mean, like move the Earth from it's orbit with a punch, or destroy an asteroid with a mass greater than twice the earth's? Or maybe move an anti-matter orb with the inertial mass greater than that of a neutron star? Hulk is much stronger than Superman. Superman hasn't done anything that compares.

Superman quits fighting before Hulk does, and then asks for his assistance. I consider that a win. It may not be a knockout, but Superman has never knocked out Savage Hulk either.

Pre-crisis Superman took one of Hulk's punches; his body shudders, but he is unmoved. He then blocks the next punch. Let's not forget that Savage Hulk knocks Superman out of Metropolis with one punch.

Cosmic Cube
Originally posted by Redwolf
Superman does have a healing factor. No where near the Hulks range but he does have one.

Superman can heal himself by absorbing sunlight. That is not regeneration. If Superman's head, or arm, or leg is removed, it will not grow back. The Hulk can regenerate from gamma irradiated cells.

Originally posted by Redwolf
Oh by the way, Superman can also get more powerful the more stressed he gets.

Since I'm not a "well known member" I can't link this so I'll have to copy what is written in a Superman comic.

Adventures of Superman #636

Bad guy to Lex Luthor.

"Your theory was correct. His emotional state correlates to fluctuations in his solar storage. The more stress he's under, the more energy he retains from the sun."

Superman's strength doesn't increase. Depending on the amount of stress he is under, he can use more of the immense strength he already possesses. The Hulk's strength increases exponentially depending upon the amount of stress he is under; not necessarily anger; fear can cause an even greater increase in his strength. Superman may be moderately stronger to start, but the level of strength he can attain is limitless, hence, he can become stronger than anyone.

joesha28
1.Hulk is the strongest being on all time. bar none. nuff said.
Agreed

2.Thor is a GOD, so he could muster the strength to defeat Hulk if he fought his ass off. He would probably need his Hammer though.

Agree on the 1st part, but the hammer well... i have to accept the 60sec rule.

3.Superman is an alien from Krypron, who posesses almost unlimited strength. Superman could defeat Thor in battle, but only by using his other powers (as seen in Marvel/DC crossover) Thor and Superman are about as strong as each other, but superman would win a fight between the two.

Disagree, equal in strength. Thor will edge out Superman cos of magical mjolnir. A fact that DC will have to accept.

3.Hulk is stronger than both of them.
True, indeed. Potentially, because of his anger his strength grows. But Thor was unbulge by a angry Hulk (defenders#10) for 1 hour. I believe Supes could do that too.


4.Superman is the most durable out of the 3.
Debatable, because this can't be proven.

5.Thor has potentail to defeat both of them.
Well, Superman yes, Hulk it will go either way

Lord Ryugen
Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
When have you seen Hulk get tired and consequently revert to Banner? Did this happen in the same comic Superman punches Galactus? I really wish you'd stop making up lies.

Obviously, you haven't read many Hulk comics. It has been said countless times that Hulk's strength and anger has no limitations. The Beyonder himself has said that Hulk is an "infinity of power." Stop comparing Hulk to human emotion. They aren't equivalent. You should learn about the character before you post. Hulk's strength has no limitations, period.

Thank you Cosmic Cube this is what I was trying to get accross (rather poorly I admit.) Hulk has never faced a situation where he's suddenly said to himself ''Bugger I can't get any angrier'' his strength has never faced an obstacle to my knowledge that he could not eventually overcome. By any logical thinking Jason8200 is right there should be a limit, but so far there hasn't been. Hell he's never even come close to a li it before.

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