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This infuriates me! First because of the Loudmouth B*tch whp caused it all! Secondly because of that big cowardly fat ass who attacks someone half his size! And thirdly because of all the cowards who let that crap happen!

We live in a world now where no one seems to care anymore, if that had happened even 15 years ago they would have had to peel the attacker off of the floor because people wouldn't have stood there and watched it happen. But not today, I'm sure they would have wnated someone to help them if they were in the same position.

...WTF?!

That is sad...

what a surprise...

But honestly, if 200 people weren't able to overthrow 6 plane hijackers armed with box cutters.

What good are 6 spectators going to do against a mammoth of a human being like her. (oh and the boyfriend too. )

"We live in a world now where no one seems to care anymore, if that had happened even 15 years ago they would have had to peel the attacker off of the floor because people wouldn't have stood there and watched it happen. But not today."

Hah! Nope. 15 years ago it would have been the same.

I think you are right Ush, its sad though

****, what a joke...i would've hoped at least 1 person would've tried to restrain the guy

I'm glad to see that at least one of The Fat Boys made it back in the spotlight.

Everyone is too fast to say "Yeah you should help" and then in the actual situation, they stand by with the mentality of "Well, why should I help?".

-AC

Well thats what I said, but it sure is a nice idea to belive that you would help isn't it

Question - "Well, why should I help?"

Answer - "Because I would want someone to help me."

I've been in this situation before when someone needed help and many just stood and watched. I didn't think twice about stepping in.

I don't get how people can just watch something like that happen.

I'm the kind of person that would try to break up the fight by saying something like "hey man, calm down...he isn't fighting back"


Unfortunately, I'm the same kind of person that gets decked in the face for not "minding my own business"

Which leads to me being the sissy on the floor crying...wondering why everyone else didn't get the beat down like me.

Thats not a good answer what aboot that

Question: Why should I help
Answer: Shut the **** up you stupid ******* ****ing help.

That disgusts me too!JM

I mean come on though I would of jumped in there and I weigh 100 pounds. Mabey if sombody helped more people would

I hope both the woman and that man die.

No matter how heavy the assailant is, they still have a jaw.
Thety can still be knocked out.
As long as the situation is unfairly stacked against a smaller guy getting beaten up (So long as he's not a rapist or child molestor of course,)
its always "Go..! Attack that bigger f**ker!" that rings through my mind
in that type of situation. 7 times out ten, if you can fight your way past the immoblising shock/adrenaline factor in there you can make that difference even if it means taking a shot of two on the way in....

The shock/adrenaline paralyses a lot of people into freezing which is why a lot of people don't/can't get in there......

I come from a background where a lot of these situations would be seen, and it wasn't 'til I learned Boxing and a few other disciplines that this changed for me. The adrenaline is your friend. It empowers you to be faster, take more punishment and still be active,to be faster and to be most importantly, alert. Such forms as boxing get a bad rap sometimes, and everybody's favorite argument is Tyson and sure, for all we know, that fatass could've had some training, but what if a boxer then saved you from the fate of the victim guy in the video....?
Ive certainly stepped in and never use what i've trained in for bad.

Seriously people, the argument for self-defence training has never been so relevent as in the time we live in now.

BTW.... No I don't actaully run a training club, I'm just thinking that Im running sympathy for people who slag off boxing or any other mechanism of defence and won't help themselves, in the name of pacifism, when you can be a pacifist who knows how to kick some arse if need be to stop this stuff happening. Sure no one has really come across that way here, but had to get that in..
Yep that man and women were scum.

I love how the guy beside the big Black guy, (when he started hitting Scarpino), just stood there and did nothing....wow.

"Well thats what I said, but it sure is a nice idea to belive that you would help isn't it"

Ideas don't help without the acting out.

I don't get involved in street fights no matter what. It's not worth me getting stabbed or something in a fight that has nothing to do with me. I understand the want to help but I don't think I wanna explain to my loved ones while laying in a hospital bed "Oh I'm here coz I got involved in a fight that had jack to do with me."

-AC

but you wouldnt mind sitting in a hospital saying "yeah, i got attacked and stabbed...and all 50 people watching didnt do a damn thing, and i dont blame them"

bullshit

die? i hope they are brutally murdered with so much suffering that the devil would flinch. people such as this are only a shit stain on society and recieve pleasure and self gratification by victimising others. good thing i dont make the laws.

"but you wouldnt mind sitting in a hospital saying "yeah, i got attacked and stabbed...and all 50 people watching didnt do a damn thing"

No I wouldn't. It's not their job or responsibility.

If they chose to help that's up to them, it doesn't mean I have to do the same. I simply do not care about other, random people I have never met or don't know. No reason why I should risk myself getting involved.

If others feel some compelling need to help others who probably wouldn't help you and risk getting injured in the process, rock on. I don't.

-AC

wow thats just sad

I can see your point, but I thin I would cause I would havce a good feeling afterwards. Well maybe not cause I am a coward, but eversyone has decide for themself

I dont think anyone else got that.

It's not that I fel compelled to put myself in a situation where I am at risk, it's just what I see as a moral obligation to help those in need. If I can help someone who goes hungry to eat, I'll help. If I can help someone find a job, I'll help. And If I can help someone from getting their face bashed in, I'll help.





wow thats just sad



I agree, sad and pathetic.

What a couple of vile creatures. Personally, I wish I could walk around with a couple of beast handguns (like Ivory and Ebony) and deal out justice Fece-style.

Sad, Pathetic....and absolutely true in most instances.

He gave the honest answer that most people are afraid to give because they don't want to be told they are "sad" or "pathetic"

It's like in Iraq. Techincally I "care" for the Iraqi's because I don't like them being put through all of the sh!t the US has brought to them. But I don't REALLY "care" about what's going on over there because I'm not doing anything to fix the situation.

It's easy to say "I'd help the guy" but few people are willing to take a complete ass whooping that comes with sticking up for someone who is in that kind of situation.

Yep. It has do with this psychological concept of displacement of responsibility or something (the exact phrase does not come to mind). Basically, if one is alone and sees a situation in which a person requires aid, one will probably help the person. However, if one is in a group of people, the stress the responsibility originally placed upon one is spread throughout people of the group, and the mind frame becomes, "Well, if he or she or that person doesn't help, I guess I don't really need to, either. Someone else will help."

I agree, sad and pathetic.

Right on Mate....!!
Lets look at this way... For those still not in the grasp.
If your sister or mother is being beaten up or raped or something in public and you meet the guy who had the convictions politically, ethically religously or other wise to sit there and object to doing something about it, are you going to :
A) Send him some flowers in gratitude....?
or
B) Send him to the morgue....?

That guy in question having the crap beaten out of him was someones brother, someones son. Maybe even a father. Where is the compassion...? One day if you really need to talk to someone desperately I would hope that that person be it a priest, careworker, shrink, friend or whatever would sit and listen, perhaps putting them selves out, rather that saying: "Right...What have you ever done for me...?"

both the girlfriend and her boyfriend should be thrown and jail and ROT!!!!
stupid idiots no bloody life.. and thoes dumbasses watching, not doing anything.. man if i was there.. i hate violence, but i'd throw myself on the attacker and start kicking him in the balls a million times..
people get me so mad!! how can anybody hurt another human being?
it's time we start learning from the animals, they live more peacefully then we do..

Yup i watched a video about that in one of my college classes.

Basically they grabbed a group of people and put them in a class to take a test. They then ran a bunch of smoke up under a door to simulate a fire. During the test NO ONE said a damn thing about the smoke because they felt someone else would be morally obligated to speak up.

Same fire test with individuals instead of a group and every single person pointed out the fire and took action.


It's easier to act morally alone than in a group of gawkers.

Thats it mate...!! Cause while it is indeed detestable, unjustified street of domestic violence, allowing to go on if someone is innocent in it and getting a totally unjust pounding at a vast disadvantage when you can help the person is just as bad or worse.
Maybe the person doing the attacking has a screw lose, but sitting there and for all intents a nd purposes condoning it.....?

Give me reasons why I should risk my own health for someone I don't know, have never met, have NOTHING to do with and probably wouldn't do the same for me?

If the answer is "Because it's right" then no, you are wrong. If you feel that it's right to go and help someone, then that's your choice and I completely respect that. It is not my responsibility to look out for other people. I look out for myself and those closest to me. The day I risk getting my life cut short for a random on the street isn't gonna come soon.

Sad and pathetic? To you maybe. I reserve my right to laugh if you stick your nose into a fight that has jack to do with you and get capped for it.

"It's not that I fel compelled to put myself in a situation where I am at risk, it's just what I see as a moral obligation to help those in need. If I can help someone who goes hungry to eat, I'll help. If I can help someone find a job, I'll help. And If I can help someone from getting their face bashed in, I'll help."

^^^This is what it comes down to. You feel some moral obligation to help. That's a self placed obligation. I don't have it. You do. Why? Coz you choose to. Just because you've taken on the role of being a hero, doesn't mean everyone has.

"If your sister or mother is being beaten up or raped or something in public and you meet the guy who had the convictions politically, ethically religously or other wise to sit there and object to doing something about it, are you going to :
A) Send him some flowers in gratitude....?
or
B) Send him to the morgue....?"

Not A because that's just a stupid though. Certainly not B because I'm no thug. Who am I to stand there and say to a random man "Why didn't you help my family member?". Who am I to request that of someone I have nothing to do with? If they are willing then that's their own choice but I'd never request help. That's my job to be there for my family and friends, no one elses and I'll say the same for you. It's not your job to be there for me.

"That guy in question having the crap beaten out of him was someones brother, someones son. Maybe even a father. Where is the compassion...? "

Why do I need to have compassion for some random person? Yeah it sucks and it's wrong but at the end of the day it's got jack shit to do with me. It's SOMEONE'S brother, SOMEONE'S son and SOMEONE'S father. It's not MINE. NOTHING to do with me.

What if the man or woman helping and getting involved because they think it's "right" is someone's brother or sister? Father or mother? What then? Exactly. Someone then has the chance of losing a loved one for no reason whatsoever other than they stuck their nose in what didn't concern them. I'd love to see your reaction when a cop turns up at your door "Sorry son but your Dad is dead." "Why?" "There was a fight and he tried to stop it but got shot." You would be after the shooters blood, but why? He had no beef with your father till your father got involved. If you involve yourself in a dangerous situation that doesn't concern you then you run the very likely risk of making things turn out much worse than much better. A woman gets raped, the guy runs off. Very very sad, terrible situation for the woman. However, women DO, HAVE and CAN overcome rape. How would she feel if you tried to stop the guy and got shot or stabbed? How would she feel knowing that a death is essentially on her hands also?

If you all wanna walk around with an "I help people therefore I have the position of labelling those who don't, sad and pathetic" tag, then you are the ones being sad and pathetic.

I say this to anyone calling me sad and pathetic. Next time there's a gunpoint rape or a beating, I expect you to step in no questions asked because if you do anything less than get involved, you're being a hypocrite.

-AC

The moral? People are pussies.

I'd rather be the pussiest guy walking the Earth than the bravest person in the graveyard.

-AC

Or you could be relatively brave and alive. Difference between bravery and stupidity.

Everyone involved in the incident in the pizzaria were pussies, especially the guy who was doing the attacking. All the on lookers who were too scared of the scary black man who sucker punched a guy who wasn't paying attention to gang up and beat him into submission were also pussies.

AC's view of society might be somewhat hostile to my views, but I absolutely asgree with the body of what he is saying.

We do not live in a society controlled by vigilante violence. No citizen has a responsibility to enforce the law on random people in the street. If they do have a civic responsiblity, it is to do one thing only- inform and co-operate with the appropriate authorities. That is what society is about- taking the law into your own hands is a risky business, and making people feel morally obligated to do it is entirely wrong. AC is right; no-one should be made to feel a lesser person for not wanting to put himself in harm's way when no responsibility actually exists for him to do so- especially for the many people like me that could not do a damn thing about it. I am damned if the logical extension of that is that a big storng guy who COULD so something is therefore more capable of being a 'good' citizen than me. I'd run around the corner and call the police, and I have serious issues with anyone who would decry me for that.

Over here, the Police have actively issued guidelines to the public that basically say "For the love of God, don't get involved yourself." There is reason and sense behind that professional assessment.

I'm not a judge. I'm not gonna judge someone for reacting one way (or not, as the case may be) because that's up to them.

My point was in general to all those who feel morally obligated to "help". I knew someone who felt morally obligated to help. He was a really really good friend of mine.

Key words? 'Was' and 'Knew'. One of the closest friends of my family saw two guys fighting outside a pub, he ran over there to split it up and got stabbed. Left behind a girlfriend and a kid. Rather than thinking of himself and the people who actually matter to him, he chose to interject himself into a combustible situation and died as a result. His family don't sleep soundly just because he tried to help. Like you said "That guy getting beaten could be a father". He was and now he's dead.

Am I gonna get myself into a possible life threatening situation, given the consequences, based on the fact that I could THEORETICALLY come out of it ok with the 'wellbeing' that I helped someone? F*ck no.

Like I said, call me sad and pathetic when one of you carry out that moral obligation you placed upon yourselves and possibly land up in a hospital or worse. I'll come to your funeral and have one of your devestated family members tell me how brave you were and how cowardly I am.

-AC

It's a noble thing to help someone out when you don't have to but I doubt half the people condemning those who just stood around would've been the first to jump in. But if everyone in that pizza shop would've ganged up on the attacker they coulda put his fat ass in the hospital. Unless if he was packing heat or something.

Someone should have kicked him in the balls as hard as they could, someone else should have stabbed him with the leg of one of the chairs (or a knife, if they had one) that were sitting around, then drag his ass out to the street and curb him like the piece of shit he is. Bam! Problem solved. One less piece of shit walking the street breathing my air and eating my food and drinking my water.

Well I have done and would have...
I know sometimes it would be easy to say, but there you go.
I guess then it wouldn't matter what words are, I will sleep safely knowing my course of action in that case.
Thats all I'd have to say about that I guess....

Yay...... Big time......

I refuse to subscribe to lauding a system that places the responsibility of justice on the merely physically capable with no other consideration.

Aside from anything else, that's very male-orientated.

Not sure I follow....But now I'm drinking... Please elaborate..?

Oh yes, I forgot, the woman also deserves a beating. A quick punch to the nose, kick to the vagina, then cut off her ear and put it on her pizza, then lay her next to her curbed boyfriend. What a beautiful sight that would be.

Precisely.

I don't see how I'm cowardly for not getting into a situation where any offense would be directed solely upon me. If I were there in that pizza place and someone said "Why didn't you help?" I'd just say "Why didn't you?".

Bottom line: You are not my responsibility.

Feel free to prove me wrong on that (you can't). All you can say is that it's sad and pathetic. Which doesn't bother me.

-AC

That's your punishment for being mouthy and pushing in line?

This is precisely why justice has to be kept away from amateurs.

Exactly my point.

There's a police force for a reason.

-AC

Also because she started the whole thing, and that's also her punishment for being with such a piece of shit for a boyfriend.

Also, she was happy about what her boyfriend was doing to the guy ( I saw the tape on the news last night). She was cheering and shit.

Plus...and this is important, she was damn ugly. So yeah, I'd say she'd deserve the punishment I described.

Are you prepared to give it to her?

Are you prepared to, as a result, go to jail or more?

If the answer isn't yes to the second, it can't be yes to the first. Well, it can but that'd make you a hypocrite.

-AC

Oh, I'd give it to her in a second if I wouldn't go to prison for it. In fact, that's the only reason I wouldn't give her or him what's coming to him/her.

Actually, you could probably get away with giving the guy all the things I described, minus the curbing. But really...without the curbing what's the point?

I actually agree with what everyone has posted in here....is that even logically possible?
I mean, I understand where everybody is coming from: AC, Ush, Kharma Dog, etc.
Hell, many the time I've just sat by and watched as a guy got his @$$ whooped, and said to myself: "I've gotta' help him....but then I'll get the shit kicked outta' me....poor bastard....", and I walk away. I wouldn't say I'm a coward, but....well, I guess I am.

So basically "Yeah I'd help if the law didn't apply to me."

Is that what you're saying?

If that's the case then it's quite clearly the beating that you relish, not the helping. Which means you're probably no different than those people who flip out anyway. Coz if the law wasn't there and someone pissed you off you'd probably be doing worse.

ARC, you're not a coward for not getting involved in shit that doesn't concern you and don't let anyone here tell you different.

-AC

There's a difference. The guy who got attacked didn't have it coming. The guy I'd want to attack would have it coming.

I wouldn't attack someone for saying "I'm going to be late".

I would attack someone for attacking someong for saying "I'm goig to be late".

We don't need people like that in the world.

Yeah but that's why there ARE laws.

Because we all have ideas of what it takes to have a beating coming. I think attacking someone for saying "I'm going to be late" is very drastic but I'm not gonna attack the attacker as a result.

Not my responsibility. Nor is it yours, but if you make it so then you accept the consequences. It's not sad nor pathetic to not help.

-AC

No, but you might tell me I'm a paedophile....

But god it would feel good.

I dunno ARC, are you morally obligated to be one?

A joke you see.

-AC

Because you enjoy beating up people you find distasteful?

I'm glad civilisation has taken us so far.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!

who can forget that

"Because you enjoy beating up people you find distasteful?"

Yes! Giving that guy what he deserves would be awesome.

I don't think I could condone battery of a female by a male....
I dunno, maybe if she was trying to stab my childeren or something,
But if shes an instigator only, and she does actually care about her fella, then, once she sees the fella getting a counter-beating, she if half intelligent enough to comprehend the concequences of her actions, then she'd learn....and then she'd shut the hell up..... However often its not the case... And a very good point it is that the police would be the ideal solution, what are you going to do while waiting for them to show...?
"Excuse me Mr Assaulter... But you'd better stop battering me because old bill'll be here in 20-mins or half hour....?" or fight back and/or hope that someone restrains this lunatic....?

No one ever will....

AC & PVS>

Again....I understand what BackFire is going on about, but I doubt I'd be the first one to jump into the situation.
I mean, from one point of view, I could say: "Where was the good samaritan I am when I needed one to help me from getting the sh!t kicked out of me?"
Well....I've never really seen someone getting a beat-down personally, (well, that's not true - let's see, there was High School, and College, and University.... ), so I can't really be sure what I'd do. I might help the person, but I might not.
Ah...it's times like these when I wish Police Forces weren't so corrupt, or at least so lazy....

That is the creed of a thug with no sense of civics. It is disgusting.

In relation to ARC, the whole point was that I didn't directly call him that and it got blown out of proportion to make it look like I did.

On topic:

Someone said people are pussies. People are also self-centered enough to wish the law didn't apply to them. Hence why we have situations like the pizza thing.

"Ah...it's times like these when I wish Police Forces weren't so corrupt, or at least so lazy...."

Fact is that even the police think "Not my responsibility" from time to time.

They choose to do it for a profession too, you don't. So why it's anyone's responsibility to help out, I just don't get (I do get it, it's just dumb).

-AC

Put "animals in with the animals" would perhaps be another way of looking at the case in hand...

"Eye for an Eye" died out in biblical times, and with good reason- it was an evil system, that simply perpetrated crime upon crime.

to admit that you might not help is nothing to be ashamed of.
to express that as your belief is however imho. i guess humans
are just selfish and needy by nature.

if you saw a man choking and knew how to save him, would you? or would you say "let the paramedics handle it" when you know damn well that the man will be dead before they show up?

the arguement is being mixed up with talks of vigilante justice. the simple fact is there were MORE than enough people to at least restrain the man until police show up. our laws protect good sumeritans for the most part and allow for citizens arrest.

that was a room full of pussies, and though they may have had this 'if it doesnt affect me, it doesnt matter' attitude before the attack, i bet they stay up at night restless, wishing to god they could turn the clock back and do the right thing.

But that's exactly my point AC: They are PAID to help maintain Society as we know it, and yet they blindly sit by as some poor schmuck get's the f*ck get kicked out of him! That is just Sadism, and it show's the standards and what really matters in todays society: MONEY! $$$ $$$

Okay, now that I've had my fun spouting silly shit that in essence may be what the guy has coming, I'll give my real opinion of this matter.

AC is 100% right when he says it's not anyones responsibility to get involved. It isn't, and speaking honestly I wouldn't get involved myself unless I knew 100% he didn't have a gun or a knife (because from what I saw I am 100% sure that in fist to fist combat I could drop this guy like a bag of shit) I wouldn't do shit. If I somehow knew he didn't have a gun or knife, I'd probably do something.

In this day and age, when anyone on the street could have a concealed weapon, you can't expect people to risk their lives over something like this.

That said, had someone else done the things I described (kicking him in teh balls, stabbing him, then curbing him) then they'd be my personal hero. But, I'd never do that because of the consequences and I don't have what it takes to kill a person, no matter how worthless they may in fact be. Although, my primal emotions don't deny that I do think he does deserve that.

Oh, and for the woman, the ear cutting thing was just me being silly. I do think, however, a pimp slap would be in order.

False comparison; there is no risk in saving someone from dying from choking. No citizen has a civic or moral obligation to put him or herself in harm's way to prevent a crime.

I doubt anyone believed you about the woman... but the potential joy you expressed from beating up the guy I rather think is genuine, and disturbing.

I think I may have been a little harsh out of reaction in agreeing with a couple of things.... Inded it IS your right not to get involved.. People ARE different, Im just saying that its not wrong either to want to help either and that I cant understand how people expect help all the time but won't help another....
It just mystifies me a little...You know....??

wrong ush. that person you save can turn around and sue you.
you are at a high legal risk when being a good sumeritan.
the difference is one risk is physical and the other is legal.

That's a pathetic comparison. There is a moral obligation to help someone in trouble if there is no direct risk to you. Babbling on about being sued for saving someone from choking to death is a rejection of a basic view of civic morality.

So perfectly put...

'cept you fo'got to pull dat nappy ass weave!

PVS Ush is right.

"i bet they stay up at night restless, wishing to god they could turn the clock back and do the right thing."

Or maybe they went to bed and slept like most people would do and you're just over moralising it.

About the man choking, I am more likely to help. I'm more likely to help a man choking and an old lady with her bags than I am to go and get involved in a FIGHT.

That makes me a pussy? Excellent. Like I said, being the bravest and most moral guy in the burial grounds means nothing.

-AC

True but then if someone does it anyway, if the cops aren't about and that person saves one of your family members from a kicking or worse, then would you be grateful or resentful of the intervening individual..?

As I said, if someone did that to that guy, I would be happy. I sure as hell ain't going to shed a tear over such a blatantly bad person.

Like I said, I saw the video of this last night on the news, and IT was disturbing. The attacker was a big, strong man who sucker punched someone half his size for saying "I'm goign to be late".

There is no place in the world for people like that.

how is it 'pathetic'? and 'babbling'?
i can see where this is going

AC> But then you'd be a local legend, and people might start saying you come back to life once in awhile to help out and be a good samaritan.....

(Oh, and am I mispelling samaritan?)

Of course I'd be grateful! If someone really does help out then fine. But I wouldn't say the person was a better person for doing that. What I would hate is if someone had tried to intervene and got hurt themselves for it, or got made to feel bad for not putting themsleves at risk for that person.

So long as they did something appropriate- like call the police- rather than just pretend it wasn't happening, I'd be happy enough.

"But then you'd be a local legend, and people might start saying you come back to life once in awhile to help out and be a good samaritan....."

If I got to wear a cape........fine.

-AC

There is certainly no place in the world for people who would gain joy from the physical assault of another, no matter how justified they felt in doing so.

And PVS, it was babbling because you are trying to equate direct fear of being personally hurt, and an abstract fear of being sued. It's pathetic for the same reason- the two simply do not compare.

Unless it is written into the creed of your job to not help- like it is with me when I am working with people with severe mental health problems- then some vague idea of being sued should be the last thing on anyone's mind, and if you DO think that way I have serious issues with the priorities in your head.

That whole scene made me feel exactly how I felt when I watched "Irreversible"

Well thats fair enough.... Even though you are right that the person may not be a better person thatn the average joe, I however do believe that if some one had saved some one else that the saver was better than the common-thug-attacker...... Occasionally the police may have to restrain someone but that wouldn't make them scum now would it....?

Of course, but then so is the person who calls the police.

In fact, without any other info, so is the person who does nothing. Such a person might be callous, but that's not as bad as being mindlessly brutal.

"There is certainly no place in the world for people who would gain joy from the physical assault of another, no matter how justified they felt in doing so."

Hey, the world is over populated, if someone killed that guy for attacking someone in a horrible manner without reason, there is no downside to society by losing him. If he was murdered I wouldn't have to pay tax money to keep him alive in jail.

You should watch the video if at all possible, then tell me that you'd object or feel bad for such a piece of trash getting ended. It truley was a disgusting video, and I have no shame saying that that man deserves anything he gets for doing such horrible things to another person for no good reason.

That takes us back to the disgusting creed then, BF. Anyone who thinks they have that right is in need of serious civic education.

So many hypocritical highlights in that post I don't even know where to begin.

You're helping people you don't know by paying to keep a bad man in jail. Where's the compassion?

Oh wait, coz you lose money that way. So you're good to help as long as you don't lose money or life.

Ha.

-AC

I agree about the mindless brutality bit.
And yes, if the police are called then great... all i'd want to do is see the attack stopped really regardless of what ever was deserved,
but then again if a mindless aggressor was to start, get out of his depth and get a justified kicking (And it would HAVE to be justified), I wouldn't lose any sleep.....

No one said they'd have that right.... Merely that I would approve of such a thing happening.

I've seen the video. The scale of the crime is totally irrelevant.

Perosnally, I think if society accepts the death of someone who does not deserve death- and it is a very bad thing to think a person who attacks another, even unprovoked, deserves death- simply because that might benefit society...

... then the idea of a 'civilised' society has failed.

Civilized society has already failed with people like that walking around the street anyways.

And I don't think the scale of the crime is irrelevent. I think, since the crime was overly violent and probably threatening to the people around it, someone could easily have killed the attacker by stabbing him and get away with it by saying "well, I paniced because he was attacking a person at random and I thought he might attack more of us."

so the thought of being sued into povery doesnt frighten you?
well it does me. perhaps i've just seen too many people in the states become victims of complete scumbags who would dare sue the one whom they owe their life.

and no ush, i dont think that fear is justification for sitting back and doing nothing. i would certainly put myself in potential legal jeoprody to help someone, who i would pray is not the type of scumbag to turn aroung and bite the hand that saved them. does that solve your 'serious issues' with my priorities?

but i also feel that people are morally obligated to help others who's lives out in jeprody. when people are attacked and possibly killed, it doesnt take like 10-20 minutes, its immediate. the police show up AFTER the fact to assess what HAPPENED and go from there. if they CAN they will certainly kick ass, but most of the time, they cant. its too late.

but whatever, this is what i believe to my core. we are all responsible to help others who are being victimised to such a harsh degree. i'd rather spend a week in the hospital sleeping like a baby because i did the right thing, then spend my life regretting. perhaps im just a freak.

PWNED.

That's a lazy assumption, and also unhelpful. Society is never perfect but it can be improved. To just junk it and replace it with a system of condoning the death of those who are distasteful means a leap from th creed of a thug to the creed of a totalitarian state murderer.

You've made my day.

ON-TOPIC: Well, I think it's fair to say that: PVS would blindly jump in to help the person, (perportedly), and probably get himself killed; BackFire might help, but he might not; AC would probably say, "What a shame", and walk away; same with Ush; SoG would probably try to help PVS; and I'd be the guy on the sidelines saying to himself, "Should I help?"

I feel society could be improved more if people like that didn't exist, so if someone reacted in that situation by killing him - Then good, the society was just improved by getting rid of a bad person.

Or a person who would condemn others simply for not wanting to put themsleves at risk, as they have every right not to do so. You claim moral superiority in this.

You are incorrect., No such moral obligation exists for people to put themselves in harm's way, and it is a barbarous and backwards belief to think so. Modern society does not and should not work like that.

And yes, I think that if someone was choking to death in front of me, and I had the skills to save that person, and at any point in that process I thought "I had better not help him, I might get sued... for some obscure reason I do not understand" then damn right I would be disgusted. That is VERY wrong. And it cannot be compared, even for one moment, with the instinctive fear of getting a knife in the chest.

And by condoning that means of improving society you destroy it. That is evil. Killing people simply because it is convenient and that person is not liked is the hallmark of a terminally amoral society.

What's the big surprise?! Humans being violent and careless towards each other?! What's new?! Is always been like this and will always be like this. Violence is a part of us. We're basically animals.

As for the incident with the big guy and the woman. Well, it happen and the law will take care of it. No need to drown in a glass of water over this incident.

"And yes, I think that if someone was choking to death in front of me, and I had the skills to save that person, and at any point in that process I thought "I had better not help him, I might get sued... for some obscure reason I do not understand" then damn right I would be disgusted. That is VERY wrong. And it cannot be compared, even for one moment, with the instinctive fear of getting a knife in the chest."

It's the fault of the justice system for allowing someone to be sued for saving another persons life. Blame the system that allows such a silly possibility, not the man for recognizing the possibility.

This basically comes down to a question easily answered.

Are you responsible for random people?

Answer: No.

You can close the book.

-AC

But how about a restraint/mild counter violence instead of a kicking-to-death....? Surely thats acceptable when the thug you are restraining has much worse in mind.....?

I'd blame the man for having it on his mind. It's an artifical fear. it cnanot be compared with the fear of death.

No-one has an instinctive fear of being sued.

actually no, i would not 'jump in'. first thing i would do is seek the help of others...try to break the 'gawking effect' described earlier. a quick "we've got to help him'" "Hes gonna kill him" something of that nature. if all else failed...shit it would depend on the situation. if the guy has a gun and all i can find to grab is a pizza cutter...then i guess i wouldnt. i would have to have a good chance of being effective or whats the point? its not about a macho quest for glory, i would just want to put it to a stop any way possible.

Like a kid who went to my school who overdosed on heroin (he was transferred to a 'troubled kids' school)...I asked aloud, "Does anyone really care?" This earned me a look of pure horror--I'm a bad person, it seems. Meh. Personally, if you suck as a person, feel free to remove yourself from the gene pool. Eugenics will one day be reborn.

Well, you don't live in the US. It's quite instinctive over here.

Well let us know who you are and where you drink so if we see you being unfairly beaten/murdered, we won't intervene soes to not offend your principles....

No it isn't, it's an intellectual fear. Instinctive fears come from the very base of your mind from birth.

I would accept it if you had been hardcore trained in an educational facility to never do anything that gets you sued- like I, as I say, have been to not intervene with people with severe mental health problems- other than that, such a thought should never enter into your mind.

It's pretty much agreed that that's the truthful answer, this thread as now spawned into other fun filled discussions. Such as if curbing can be justified.

Well said.

"Well let us know who you are and where you drink so if we see you being unfairly beaten/murdered, we won't intervene soes to not offend your priciples...."

You say that like it'd bother me.

-AC

Gotcha.

But it's still a valid concern over here, you can get sued for doing anything in the good ol' US. You can't blame a person for taking it into account, blame the system for allowing foolish lawsuits, such as suing someone for saving your life.

However, I'd probably still save the guys life, and if he sued me after, simply regret it. But, then again, if someone is stupid enough to almost choke to death in a restaurant, then chances are they'll do it again, hopefully before the trial starts.

That, as I said before, is placing power of justice in the physically capable alone. That is not right. No-one should feel obligated in that manner.

fear of losing everything you have is not an instinctive fear?
and what if you have kids to feed?

it was just a few punches...it happens everyday in life
if anyone did step in to help that guy then i feel there would be more than 1 person in the ambulance that night

And would you validly compare your fear of being sued in that situation with your fear of being killed in the original situation?

I cannot help thinking that any rational analysis puts the fear of death in a far more severe and relevant light.

"and what if you have kids to feed?"

Think of them having no father and walk away from a fight that doesn't concern you.

-AC

Dude seriously, as I said, each to their own.
I was alittle late smiling and spelling editing... My opinions principles are my own and I don't impose them on anyone, despite how passionate I can get about these things...Go and be in peace

That's just playing around with definitions. Fear of that is what you might feel if you observed someone nicking all your money.

It would NOT be instinctive to think that when someone is choking in front of you. Not one tiny bit.

From what I've heard, being sued can sometimes end up being worse then death!

Jokes aside, no, they're not comparable, but you can't condemn a guy for taking it into account that he may get sued. That's all I'm saying. Blame falls squarely onto the justice system.

Hi Dean...
Maybe so... But extreme cases are what has been discussed also.

yeah, thanks for not reading the point
i was speaking of fear of being sued into poverty for doing the right thing.

Well, one of my points under discussion was that the two were not comparable, so thanks for agreeing.

But I still reject the idea that any person could morally think of the risks of being sued when he sees someone dying in front of him and has the power to save him.

Aside from anything else, it would be IMmoral to be sued for that, and that should be on your mind- as you said you would react, BF.

I was aware, just using it to make a general point.

Wasn't intentionally misinterpreting. Sorry if it seemed such.

-AC

Yeah but you see a guy choking to death do you really think "Hm I might get sued if I try to help him and might not be able to feed my kids." That's alot of thinking to be doing while someone is dieing next to you.

Afro cheese is exactly right.

its not alot of thinking. when something becomes instinctive though, you dont sit and rethink every word. its just a part of american life.

and ush, if you dont believe me, why dont you ask other americans?

Too be honest, I didn't even know people got sued for saving someones life. That's a new low.

if i felt someone was gonna get seriously hurt..then i would try and help..cos if that person did die..then i probably woudnt live it down...i know that person has nothin to do with me..but i would feel bad if that person died or was badly injured and i did nothin to help
thats me though

backfire, i live in jersey. that capitol of frivolous backwards lawsuits.

the most famous case happend a long time ago. some guy flips his tractor traier over and the thing is on fire. (on its side) another guy sees this, stops his car, runs over to a burning truck, risking his own life,
lifts the guy out of the truck by his arm, and shortly after the very place the guy was trapped is encinerated.

he gets sued for dislocating the mans shoulder while pulling him out.
not only that, but the scumbag who sued him won the case. just one of many many stories. also several cases where a criminal sues the owner of a house he was robbing, because the dog attacked him, or he fell through the roof, or other nonesense. its a dark part of our culture and we are all taught to fear lawyers as you would the devil.

It's not instinctive. It can't be.

Someone dying in front of me => if I help him I might lose all my money.

It doesn't add up as an immediate thought. There MUST be intermediate stages.

However

Man beating someone up => I might be hurt or killed if I try and stop him

THAT is a one-step thought. It is immediate and can be instinctive.

Furthermore, being sued is part of a construct of Man alone. Being killed is a construct of the natural laws of the Universe. They are programmed into the very base of your soul from birth. Fear of being sued only exists as an intellectual fear in your mind.

It can never be instinctive.

What do you know. Low lifes from the hood



WHY AM I NOT SUPRISED?

The thing that confuses the issue is that people value lives that have nothing to do with their own, way too highly.

-AC

Wow, and I thought the burgalur suing the family of the house he broke into because he got trapped in their garage for a week was bad....

I am willing to bet plenty of Americans would agree with me, PVS.

And I certainly do not think being sued for saving someone's life is actually in anyone's consciousness strongly enough to be considered in such a situation even with time to think. I would certainly need it proved to me.

Oooooh... You'd be surprised at what goes through peoples minds Ush...

IE: Two and something years ago I was at a supermarket in Laindon,
(Quicksave) when I saw an elderly woman slip over on a grape that was on the fresh fruit aisle... Bang....! Down see went (Breaking her shoulder as I later found out,) she was in shock and lying on the floor shivering. Do you know how much the manager cared about the woman in question... Seemingly nothing.. He was more concerned by gathering info for health and saftey/ insurance's details than calling ambulances or administering any first aid.....Or even attempting talking to her.....
Therefore.... THAT guy's first thought WAS figures/money.... It does actaully happen in some peoples mind..... and that just one case...

Better watch out Ush, with that mentallity you might get sued for being a good citizen.

Like I said above, I might accept it if you have been TRAINED to think that way. You can behaviour modify anyone to think anything if you put effort into it. But only people whose live's revolve around it- like, again, myself and those people with mental difficulties (though the reasoning behind that is practical, not financial).

But aside from that, the comparison doesn't work unless the manager directly saw the incident and stopped anyone from helping on financial grounds.

If money etc. is what he was thinking on a rational basis AFTER the event, then that is nothing to do with immediate, instinctive thought.

He tried to disupte it, even though he saw it, and the amount of witesses
prevailed in the end.... So I guess it does stand up.

That's an opinion.

Too hell you say!

Manager just happened to be walking past at the time, did he?

Sorry, I find the story spurious. And your description of the incident sounds like someone who was considering a situaiton after it had happened.

If he had been actually right next to her when it happened and deliberately not caught her... THEN the comparison might stand.

Indeed if you actually have a concience anyones life can affect it,
thereby affecting your own life.

Never said it was fact.

I personally don't believe you should make life altering decisions or actions based upon someone who has nothing to do with your own.

-AC