When did Metallica start going bad?

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Norma Jean
I think it started stinking around the days of Re-Load. It got worse with Garage Inc., and then got bettter with S&M (even though it was mostly remakes). But they officially went crap with St. Anger.

Any other opinions?

What you said.

They started going to shit when they put out the black album...

And Justice For All and everything before was great...

The black album and everything after sucked ass...

Alpha Centauri
The Black Album was/is great.

They never got "crap". Metallica are still better musicians than most of the artists out at the moment. They haven't lost talent, just album making ability it would seem.

Actually, I liked Load. I think St. Anger was good, better than Reload. I dunno where everyone gets this idea that they're crap now just because you don't like St. Anger.

They're not gonna make another Master of Puppets, deal with it. If they were killed tomorrow in a bus or plane crash you'd all be kicking yourselves. So you don't like the past album/couple of albums, no need to write off the whole band.


They're just running through a dry/experimental patch IMO

Screw "MoP", I think their best album is "...and Justice For All".

IMO, they started losing their vision/touch AFTER "The Black Album", which was still groove heavy.

"St. Anger" is just messy. Their songs are all over the place, don't flow, and they were trying to cash in on a trend while trying to find themselves musically, which was a fatal error. Not that their album sales suffered, thanks to zombified Metallica fans, however, their music cred and perception sure as hell did.

Happy Dance Woo metallica are all commercialized now, hey made st.anger in like an hour in a studio just so they could release an albumn, i blame james hetfield...kirk rools! wooooooooooooooo

Norma Jean
I never once mentioned their talents. They are still amazing musicians, but St. Anger is a big flop.

I like Load too. Load is much better than Re-Load, Garage Inc, and St. Anger. I shouldn't even really count S&M, seeing as how its all remakes of their older and better stuff.

After the Black Album it all went downhill

Alpha Centauri
There have been 4 albums since The Black Album.

Load, Reload, S&M and St. Anger.

Load was good, Reload had two...maybe three songs good, S&M ruled, St. Anger was sub par with some up moments.

Like I said, don't understand where this dramatic decline occured.


most definitely

Red Superfly
I don't understand why people don't like The Black Album. I always think of The Black Album as the last of their brilliance.

I don't consider Black Album to be the "start of something bad", it's more like "the last of the good".

Everything AFTER Black Album, then.

thats what we meant...the black album is magnificent...and everything since has been complete guff

Alpha Centauri
That would be true if everything after had been complete guff, hasn't though.


load kill them....

well...i think it has been...but then...i've changed alot since then too...i guess me and metallica just went our separate ways

Alpha Centauri
Yeah, bands have a habit of doing what they want for themselves not what their obsessive, "we think we own you" fans want.

Damn them eh?


well its a bit nasty to basically stick 2 fingers up to the people who put you where you are

but i was far from obsessive about it...the fact is i couldn't have cared less...i just didn't buy the albums...and i went on to listen to other stuff

i am about to make a statement that if you disagree with then to put it quite simply...YOU ARE WRONG AND YOU ARE RETARDED

metallica's cover version of whiskey in the jar by thin lizzy was totally ****ing dire and should be condemned to the firey pits of hell for all eternity

They became business oriented, which is even worse than "selling out". They had absolutely no reason to "experiment" with their music, IMO. What's with making a movie about their "struggles"? Who gives a shit? How goddamn stubborn, self-absorbed, and down right SHAMELESS can they be? They are making money hand over fist exploiting their naive, selfish "struggles", and pretty much revelling in the fact that everyone that bought a movie ticket or DVD, their money is going to sober up a gang of has-beens, laughing all the way to the bank.

Besides, as strong a following as Metallica had, they know that they could make ****ing polka music and it would still sell, just because their diehard, and subsequently mindless, fans would still buy it, regardless.

Must be nice to know you've got more power over others than you have over yourselves.

Alpha Centauri
"well its a bit nasty to basically stick 2 fingers up to the people who put you where you are"

Oh...oh sorry. I was unaware that they got their talent from their fans.

Metallica "fans" are too hypocritical. Buy all their shit, support them, then when they get rich and famous, you wanna complain.

"They had absolutely no reason to "experiment" with their music, IMO."

Everyone said the same thing to Radiohead after they made OK Computer, everyone walked away from Radiohead coz they didn't approve of the new direction. They too thought that Radiohead would do what THEY wanted out of fear of fan loss. You know what Radiohead did? They said "It's our music. We do what we want with it, don't like it? **** you. Willing to turn your back on us for a decision we make? Then you're no fans anyway and we don't need you." They then continued on their path to being one of the world greatest ever bands.

It's their music, not yours. They can do whatever they want with it.

People need to stop telling Metallica that they have no right to do something when it's the fans who have no right to shit on their "favourite band" when they make a decision they don't like. Metallica aren't going out and selling clothes or shoes, they're not in commercials. The made a DVD, that's it. If you go to see the movie then you've got no right complaining because it just shows that you're interested in what they made the movie about anyway. They didn't compromise their integrity, they didn't lose credibility universally. They lost the acclaim of certain people.

"Besides, as strong a following as Metallica had, they know that they could make ****ing polka music and it would still sell, just because their diehard, and subsequently mindless, fans would still buy it, regardless."

Exactly and they'd still complain because they believe that being "die-hard" gives you some magical right.

The only Metallica fans I know that hate the band are the ones from this forum who have some weird delusional sense of entitlement and need to get over it.


You gotta start using the quote tags, brother. Your posts are hard to read. erm

That last sentence is strictly opinion. Totally subjective, and has no bearing in a debate.

Metallica has every right to change their music, although they were making a "comfortable living". Most would agree that nothing needed to change. To give fans that don't approve of a change in structure, Radiohead or Metallica one, such a malicious send off is weak. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. The fans that were rabid about the bands original sounds are the ones that MADE THEM WHO THEY ****ING ARE. Right? Radiohead sure slammed the door on people who paid to see them live, bought their albums, bought their merch, and maybe had a little bit of a hard time coping with the senseless "evolution". That's just unprofessional. It's their music, but they are NOTHING without fans.

Well, thankfully, I'm not "people", since I never told them what to do with their "craft". That $aid, I rarely que$tion their motive$, a$ they are blatantly obviou$. The fans indeed have a "right" to an opinion, the right to speak freely about how they feel in regards to the betrayal they experienced, and whatever else goes along with change. That's "it"? They cut their hair, went soft, lost their direction, drop the only metal influence of their band in Jason, shitting on him for a Rap-Metal approach to "vent their frustration". Then, they are naive enough to cash in the hopes that people will want to see a bunch of Thirtysomethings b!tch about the rigors of fame, how they don't get along, how sad it is to be rich, alcholic, bi-sexual intravenous drug using rockers. Write a ****ing book. It sells better, and doesn't make you look like capitalist pigs. Granted, book sales wouldn't amount to the same cut as a movie and subsequent DVD release, much less pay Hetfield's $100,000 a month therapy bills, which he admitted to Zakk Wylde paying.

No entitlement, just betrayal, desertment, lack of explanation, loss of respect for themselves and their fans, and complete and total loss of musiccianship. "St. Anger", again, is Metallica proving they hitched a ride into 2003 to the music scene in a drug enduced haze, and have no clue where they are.

Personally, I don't give a shit about the guys. They're old news. A blip on the musical radar. I'm anxiously anticipating their screamo album, though. thumb up

Norma Jean
laughing Ace!

Well, it's true. The only song that made it to radio off of "St. Anger" could easily have taken 4 different direction.

A) The opening and closing of the song? Thrash metal.

B) Verse, alternative. ("St. Anger in my head.."wink

C) Bridge, nu-metal. Hip-Hop drums, Durst vocal style lyrics. ("Push it out.."wink

D) Chorus? Punk as hell.

I figured, well, when they "come back", they'll try and figure out what band they wanna be, and give Screamo a try. Maybe it'll stick.

Alpha Centauri
Well you claim they're nothing without their fans but all the fans that left Metallica after the One video and all the fans that left Radiohead after OK Computer are quite clearly of no consequence coz the bands showed those people with a delusional sense of entitlement, just how important they AREN'T. Nobody made Radiohead BUT Radiohead. Just like nobody MADE Metallica but the people in it. If it aint broken don't fix it is right. There's nothing wrong with my bedroom but that doesn't mean there's no reason to redecorate.

Don't you think you're overreacting by making claims of betrayal and deserting? Come on man. Losing their hair matters shit, it's actually irrelevant. If their haircut bothers you then I suggest you find another hobby. Went soft? What do you mean, went soft? They are talented musicians and if them knocking off the booze and drugs keeps them around for a little longer rather than adding them to the countless list of rockstars dead from overindulgence, I'll take that chance coz I like having them around. They made a sub par album in St. Anger but I'd rather them keep putting out music than being dead.

Jason Newsted never fit in as it is. They've never had anything astounding in the bass department, Jason was nothing special. He wasn't even there when they put out their best album.

Lastly, they haven't lost musicianship. They are still an amazing live band, I saw them in December of 03 and they played all their stuff just as good, it was amazing. You shouldn't confuse ability to make stellar albums with the ability to play a stellar concert. The reason why I still like them is because they DID give us amazing music and they DO still play amazing shows. Until they grossly sell themselves out blatantly, which they haven't yet done besides your DVD debate (which is arguable depending on whether you care), I will continue to support them.


First and foremost. Albums don't sell themselves, and unless Metallica have been buying all their albums, they didn't get where they are today on their own accord. Not that most bands would want to be in their position, but lets apply that to the "Black Album" era, shall we? That's principal economics, right there.

While I personally detatched myself from music a few years ago, I know plenty of Metallica fans over the years that do indeed feel betrayed, and rightfully so. Like I said, they have a right to evolve, but not everyone's going to necessarily understand why they did it, especially when their fans are happy with their music. Now, I don't see Metallica as being happy with their music, personally, so what I'm claiming isn't so far fetched.

Cutting your hair is more or less a universal sign of change. To deny that is totally naive. Was it a coincidence that they became a complete alternative band when they re-emerged? They became video whores when "Load" debuted as well. Coordinated outfits, coordinated publicity photos. What the **** happened to the Metallica that wore band shirts in their press photos? We get this pompous asses in suits and sunglasses, smoking cigars, rubbing it in everyone's face. "Hi, we're Nu-Metallica!" By soft, compare "Dyer's Eve" and "Until It Sleeps". The latter, being too soft to even screw my girlfriend by. Seriously.

Even if Jason's musicianship never factored into the band, his influence did, and again, another "coincidence" I suppose, when the band decided to change direction again, they drop him for Mr. Out-of-place-Suidical-Tendencies, Rob. As for their supposed questionable selling out. I don't know what constitutes selling out any more than me suggesting their lack of respect for fans overall, the self important, naive movie deal, re-releasing "Gold" versions of their albums, etc.

Like I said, I couldn't care less about the guys. Someone asked when they went South, I shared my opinion, backed it, and will continue to back it until Metallica can explain their deterence for themselves, and I don't see that happening anytime soon, beyond a "safe" explanation of wanting to "evolve", when all they've done was latch onto trends.

Alpha Centauri
Well we can go round and round about the fans making the band. It depends on the band. If you are in a band with the intention of being famous, fans are essential. If not, they aren't. Tool got together when they all had full time, well paying jobs. Purely because they wanted to play music, they didn't play to get signed. Adam Jones (guitarist) was a special effects guy on T2 and Predator, hardly on the breadline. Their fans didn't make them, they did. Metallica formed because they wanted to play music. Without Metallica, fans would have no albums to buy.

I know a guy who has loved them since the beginning and still does. Seen them live 13 times. He doesn't understand why they changed but he sees that they haven't done anything wrong either, which is a key point.

As for the being soft, I think THAT comes down purely to opinion. They weren't as heavy but I don't think they were by any means soft. Secondly, the way they dress or look doesn't matter shit to me. Whether they play guitar in Gucci or a band shirt, the song sounds the same.

What it comes down to is the fans wanting explanations, doesn't it? I don't want one because to me they haven't done anything worth explaining for. Made dubious decisions yes, I don't totally agree with the making of the DVD but it's their choice. If they started selling clothes, I'd be on your side.


They never went bad they just split up for I think 5or9 years than they got back together to make one last concert I think.

look look look...we can finish this debate with the simple statement...metallica are ****ing pish...they used to be good...now they are shit...thats the fact of the matter

maybe its arthritis...maybe they got a bit to influenced by crap music...maybe they just dont care that what they are churning out is totally bollocks

but if you dont like it...dont buy it...thats what i do...i still have all their old stuff and i still listen to it now and again...i dont listen to the new stuff because i dont like it...big deal...

alpha centauri does like it...does buy it...good for him...thats his taste...

now we can all go back to being whatever the ****


St. Anger

Metallica started going bad after the loss of cliff. Though the black album was there most popular, it was also their most formulated. They sold out with the black album. I'm not saying load or reload was bad, but it wasnt what once was. As for St. anger, i wouldnt even wipe my ass with that.

room #99

After cliffs death lars took over everything and they made "one" video. Cliff never wanted them to make music videos.

I think the black album was great. for me its better then " And justice..."
which had my favortie song. but was never my favortie album.

I dont mind load or reload but st.anger, i despise that album.

Alpha Centauri
"look look look...we can finish this debate with the simple statement...metallica are ****ing pish...they used to be good...now they are shit...thats the fact of the matter"

Not while I can disagree it isn't. Fact is provable.

Oh and why doesn't everyone stop assuming what Cliff Burton wanted? He died, bad stuff but that's the reality of it.


"When did Metallica start going bad?"

I have only one thing to say..

Thats your opinion.

Alpha Centauri
It's Norma Jean, he doesn't like opinions other than his own.


Sammy i request a merge schmoll

The black album was their last good album (imo), though load and reload had a few good ones. Why did they change? Because they got old, you don't feel it as much the more years pass. The urge to turn it up so loud it hurts doesn't roll around as often. Wait and see. It's even harder for a band to stick with it, it has to be their life while you have more freedom with it.

Alpha Centauri
They changed coz they wanted to. Why is there a problem?


Metallica havn't gone bad....they've just changed to adapt to newer music, fair enough the old songs are the best but the new stuff on St Anger is good.....the days of 10 mintues songs are over.....

room #99
there are long songs on St.anger up to 8 minutes but the difference is that the songs are bland and has no taste to them.

it seems to me people are trying to convince them selfs that metallica are still good. Maybe they are but they are not showing it on thier music nowdays.

i dont want another master of puppets i just want another good album.

and i really cant convince my self tha tst.anger is a good album, it is one of the worse albums i have ever heard!

just my opinion.

Alpha Centauri
I haven't tried to convince myself of anything. If I thought they were shit I'd say so.


room #99

cliff burton took metallica with him

when cliff died metallica as we new them died

Master of Puppets had some hints of commercialism but they truly went down after Black.

Master of Puppets and Black were awesome tho.

Originally posted by carthage
Master of Puppets had some hints of commercialism What a homosexual thing to say.

The decline started after the Black Album, but their lowest point is definitely LuLu. What a piece of shit.

Originally posted by NemeBro
What a homosexual thing to say.

The decline started after the Black Album, but their lowest point is definitely LuLu. What a piece of shit.

Songs like Orion hint towards going to the mainstream, when did I say it was a bad thing? When they added ballads they were clearly going for that angle.

Bob Rock broke my heart. Made a live band into a studio ****.....I.....I...

Metallica died in a bus crash!

Don't nobody talk shit about Metallica. They've had some ups and downs. So has every band. St. Anger being a major "down." And yeah, LuLu is godawful. But they're still legends and one of my favorite bands. I can't believe people don't like the Black Album. I mean, f#ck, yeah Enter Sandman has been over played for sure. But the album is fantastic. And the newest Hardwired... is great, too. Some of the songs actually remind me of the Black Album.

Nuke Nixon
Everything after Ride the Lightning is mainstream.

Originally posted by Nuke Nixon
Everything after Ride the Lightning is mainstream.

That's crazy talk. You mean to say that Master of Puppets and ...And Justice for All are mainstream? No way. I would say that probably Black Album and beyond were more mainstream.

Their only arguably 'bad' albums, though, are St. Anger, LuLu, and maybe some of Re-Load. But I don't really count LuLu, though, because it was more of an experiment. An experiment gone horribly wrong, lol, but just an experiment none-the-less.

Nuke Nixon
Both Master of Puppets and ...And Justice for All have music videos on VH1.

Main fvcking stream.

They don't sound mainstream though. That was back when the mainstream was good.

When Load came out.

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