Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Ok...I was at school one day and it was time to say the pleadge everyone was standing except two boys....I think they should have the choose to stand or not...the teacher yeld at them and told them to stand..what do you think?

Well, coming from Australia, were there is none of that business, no pledges and what not (occasionally the national anthem for special occasions) I kind of agree its a persons choice. Of course I think it is good to show respect and honor by standing, but it shouldn't be forced, a person should do it because its right and they feel its right, not because a teacher is yelling at you.

In my experience most people stand up anyway for pledges and Advance Australia Fair anyway...

By the way, whats an "allliagence?"

Pledge of Allegiance....

Technically, the teachers CAN'T make the kids stand up, they do have the right to choose whether or not to stand for the pledge or not. Part of "Freedom of Expression".

Yea you should do some research, don't stand up next time, and if he yells at you - sue his ass.

The teacher can't force them to stand up. Now, I'm going to give the teacher the benefit of the doubt on this one. If the two kids were a couple of known troublemakers and if the teacher had enough of their antics they deserve it. If not then they don't.....

U usually don't or if I do, I just stand there. No peticular reason, I just don't feel I should have to swear loyalty to something that I don't agree with all of the time.

I hardly ever stood for the pledge...

We have a lot of foreigners in my school who refuse to stand or even acknowledge the pledge because they say it "isn't their flag." Most of the time they can't even shut up for the whole excruciating 30 seconds of extreme nationalism. Hopefully they will get deported so they never have to sit through another pledge again.

Seriously though, I don't think you should force anyone to stand for it... I think people on both sides should quit being so anal about it. Standing for the pledge doesn't mean you agree with everything the US govt does it means you appreciate the freedom we enjoy here in America, and not standing for it doesn't mean someone is spitting on the graves of dead soldiers like some of my teachers will say. People on both sides seem to get a little melodramatic.

I dont stand for it, and I've never gotten and crap for it.

i stand up but just talk to my friends and shit. its not like we all stand there and salute the flag or anything

Standing up is pointless if you talk while doing it. Might as well stay in your seat and talk..

Really...if you're not going to say the pledge, then shut up and don't bother anyone else.

Yeah I agree...

I agree... And I find our flag-waving friend KidRock not showing the degree of respect that even I show for the pledge rather ironic. I don't say it, and I don't stand up, but I don't disrespect the people who choose to say it by talking while it's going on.

nobody in our school says it you jackass. They just play it over the loudspeaker.. nobody says it at all not the teachers student or principal. So cry me a river douche bag.

Why is "cry me a river ____ (insert mildly insulting word)" the standard insult for people who are attempting to defend a fundamentally flawed idea they have?

Honestly I don't give a shit whether anybody in your school says it. Hardly anybody in my school says it either, doesn't mean I have to talk. I still think it's funny how Mr. "I wanna be the first kid on the block with a confirmed kill" can't show even the most basic degree of respect when it comes to something like this.

Tsk tsk...language...

I think youll get over it.

You're so clever, making comments that imply your superiority. I think it's obvious to anyone reading this that your argument is the better one.

Im glad you agree with me. Work on your argument skills. One day you will be up to my standards.

I know the discussion of the pledge of allegiance tends to piss people off for an unknown reason, but lets keep our dimwitted name calling and insults to ourselves. Thanks.

People...stop bitching at each other. God. Grow up and experience cool clarity in the heat of a debate. It gives you power.

I would have thought more people would have said the pledge of allegiance. I thought that was a "proud American" thing. You Learn something new everyday.

I would be pretty pissed though if people didn't show proper respect to the national anthem when played. When people talk shit or goof off during the anthem I feel they disrespect all those people who thought that this country and what it stands for was worth dying for, and then I get a bit ticked off.

Eh, you know people like naive and shallow protests these days.

In university it often seemed that people protested more to "be cool" or to be a part of something more so than that they believed in what they were doing.

I don't really care if people protest the pledge as long as they don't say shit while they do it. I just don't get who they think they're "sticking it to" by boycotting the pledge.. sometimes I think people just do that stuff to be different.

No national Anthem I respect, It stands for the History of the country, something, while not perfect, I do respect and all the people who died for the country. Its pledging to allways be loyal that I don't agree with. Theres a fine line. Anthem is more for the people I think, while the Pledge, is not only institutionalized, but is more for the government or the whole thing.

well in Canada everyone in our school has to stand for the anthem. Immigrant or not! However no one sings it, i just stand their silently looking at the ceiling or if they ever was interesting version to the anthem I'll listen. I listen to anthem every school day for almost 13 years and i still don't know it by heart!

I have to stand up for it too.At my school we also have a morning pray and I go to a public school.I don't really mind through.JM

That's actually quite pathetic, it's not a difficult song to remember. I see you oft criticising american for various reasons then stating how great Canada is and you still don't know your countries anthem?

Her it is so you know for next time.

O Canada!
Our home and native land!
True patriot love in all thy sons command.

With glowing hearts we see thee rise,
The True North strong and free!

From far and wide,
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.

God keep our land glorious and free!
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.

O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.

They should get off there lazy asses and pledge

Well I think as long as they wernt force to say the plege or sulute or to watever its fine

I cry when I think of the old red, white, and blue. cry

usaflag

Which reminds me- someone really should go back in time and tell nations to be more original with their flag colours.

Well we all know it would have killed those two to stand for heavens sake.....I swear some of the things you people protest about slays me.

I also find it particularly insulting to complain about this particular practice if you are living in the country where many men died fighting for the freedom you claim to want to excercise by refusing to stand for the pledge.

Pick your battles kids. This is nothing in the big bad world.

...but....but....we got purdy stars...

and fuscia is sooo out this season! diva *snap* *snap*

Link mwah1

What if the American Flag was like....black, orange, and red?

oh wait...a little too close to Germany...

Crap...good luck finding a combo unless you break out the 64 pack of crayolas instead of the 32 pack.

Good point on the flag colors...I got bored one day and was looking at this thing off all the flags in the world, and I remember only 1 flag not having red, white, or blue in it...and that one flag was bright green. I can't remember what country it was, though...but damnit, I want a pink flag!!!

And I think that standing to say the pledge every day is silly...they actually made it law in Illinois that in high school you HAVE to say the pledge every day (which is unconstitutional, but no one has bothered to say anything about it because saying something like that has been known to have people get death threats in this country). Frankly, it means nothing to the majority of people. Very few people at my school even knew the words to it, and I'll bet that that's the case all over the country.

Brazil maybe?

i used to pledge out loud, but would alter it

one day it was "i pledge allegiance to satan"
next day it was "i pledge allegiance to poppa smurf"
things of this nature

No...it was JUST green, had nothing else on it.

It was a few years ago, that country might not exist anymore for all we know.

Certainly there is an issue that when Americans talk about pride for the Red, White and Blue, quite a large proportion of Europe think they are being talked about.

Well, when half the world has the same flag colors...

(and before anyone gets nitpicky, I'm exaggerating when I say half )

The UK flag scores full marks for being the most complexly developed, being basically four flags overlaid in each other, with the Welsh dragon totally removed- I would assume not to annoy them, but instead because it really wouldn't go on.

Gee I wonder why that is? And I'd be willing to bet you that almost everyone over the age of 25 can say it.

And Lana I dont think the majority of the people would agree with you. Your generation isnt the majority yet. And I honestly would like to see some of you people sitting in your living rooms all cozy, say these things to the guys in Iraq, and see if they agree with ya.

I meant the majority of people who have to say it, JP, who are people my age. And having to say something every single damn day does not make it mean anything to you...and for your info, I know people who are over in Iraq, and I knew someone who died over there, so please don't throw that argument in my face.

My point was, and is, that I get tired of people (usually the younger generation) pissing all over some of the things that the we (the older) generation still hold near and dear to our hearts. And Star, that wasnt aimed directly at you. I have family members that have died defending the rights of the people in this country, and I think it's hypocritical as all get out for young people today to use the constitution to fit whatever it is they dont want to or feel like supporting.

Hang on, a heck of a lot of your generation (or thereabouts) did the same thing in the 60s, JP. I don't think it can be identified as a purely modern issue.

And my point is if someone doesn't want to say the pledge, they don't have to. There could be a hundred reasons why people refuse to say it, and it is no one's place to make someone else do something they don't want to do. So long as the people who DON'T say it sit quietly and respect those that do, it shouldn't be a problem.

My generation was the 70's first of all. And the 60's movement wasnt necessarily a great thing during this coutries history at some points. And Ush if you didnt grow up here, you cant possibly know what you are talking about.

And Star my point is, I dont see why having to stand up during the pledge is going to hurt ANYONE. No physical harm is going to result and I highly doubt anyone will be tramuatized by it. It's just one more way for MANY kids to say FU to teachers.

HOWEVER, I dont believe any child born on foreign soil should have to participate.

I know a lot of people who do, though, and certainly respect for things like the flag and the Allegiance were far lower in the times of Vietnam than they are now.

Sorry, but saying your entire generation values these things in a way the younger one doesn't does not stand up to close scrutiny.

Well, thats your opinion Ush. And you're wrong.

Wow, You get to prove your stupidity every day huh?

Well, ok, but only says you, and I actually far prefer the info I get from other sources who seem to be more willing to engage with the complexities of the issue. You just saying it as a blanket fact like that isn't very convincing.

No, it's not. From what I noticed in my school, it was only the students who were more politically active who didn't stand for the pledge (like myself), not the troublemakers who go out of their way to piss off teachers. In fact, this has nothing to do with the teachers, why did you bring that up?

And on the flip side, it's not going to hurt anyone if 2 or 3 students in a class don't stand up while everyone else says the pledge.

wtf? why dont you go play in traffic?

Wow, that remark was so hurtful

Ushgarak, I am saying it as an AMERICAN. How many Amerticans do you KNOW personally? Like 50-70? i LIVE here. I GREW UP HERE. And I KNOW what the people I went to school with felt. And thats the classes before and after me for 4 years. And I know what my elders felt. You DONT live here. You DIDNT grow up here. You are absolutely CLUELESS on what it is to be American. Simply because you KNOW Americans doesnt make you an expert. Get over yourself.

My point is this. And it's now addressed to the lot of you.

I am sick and tired of the children in this country complaining about all their nit-picky rights are being abused. It's because of the men and women who went to war and got their asses shot off that you get to live in a country that has so many freedoms. And if you want to do the amount of b*tching that some of you do over such stupid trivial stuff, then why dont you just go spit on a veteran? It's the same thing people. If all this is that big a hassle for you, grow up, get your degrees and then move the hell out of this country. Please do. Because quite frankly, I think we'd be better off without ya.


Damn forgot to hit spellcheck.

Mu Aunt and Uncle are American, JP, and they paint a very different picture from you- and furthermore, don't go off into such an unecessary rage when disagreed with, which only really undermines your point.

Frankly I don't think you are coming across very well here at all. What you have turned to now is right-wing autocratic ranting.

I suggest you calm down and try and engage in measured debate.

JP...

For one thing, you're generalizing an entire generation, so obviously what you said cannot be 100% true. Or are all the Vietnam War protests that everyone has heard about (which took place in that time) just fiction?

Number two...why is it THAT big a deal that some people don't want to stand for the pledge? If someone doesn't want to, they don't have to, and no one can make them do it. By not doing so they're not hurting anyone else. BUT by forcing someone who doesn't want to to stand and say the pledge, you ARE infringing on their rights which, nitpicky or not, is the truth. Freedom of Expression, m'dear, and I'll be damned if people aren't allowed to use it in this country that preaches that as one of its 'big things' that people died for.

pledge of allegiance should be a voluntarily thing though. Those who says the pledge stands while saying it, those who deceides to sit it out can sit and keep their mout shut while the others pledge their allegiance

Absolutely. The idea that anything like that should be enforced on principle is very old- more Stalinist than patriotic. It is basically just forcing for people to lie in the name of the flag, which shouldn't really be done.

ROTFLMAO........Ushgarak, you wouldnt know when I am mad or not if I drew you a picture. Ive long since learned there is no reason to get mad on this message board. It's pointless. And just because you post with authority that you know it all doesnt make it so. Facts are facts dear., your arent a citizen. I dont care if your dog is. You aren't. And until you are, you have nothing FIRSTHAND to base your argument on.

And I was a CHILD during the 60's. OK! Lets get that right. And while I think Vietnam is a complete and utter f-up on the part of this country, I do think the whole "hippie" movement was asinine. But hey that just me coming in from the "right-wing"

For me it isnt the whole issue of the flag. I think that's just what sparked my post. It's the coninual twisting of out constitution to fit whatever you feel like protesting.

I Thought you were my age

I was born in 1961 Fin

Well, I think most people will happily draw the conclusion you were pretty angry there, JP.

You aren't a firsthand source for me either. Objective analysis of the facts at hand tell me this- you're are not talking about fact, and are massively over-generalising about your generation, and expecting everyone else to just accept that. A shame really- and without any value as an argument.

History tells us that throughout the latter 20th century there has always abeen a counter-movement against overblown US patriotism. To say only the new generation indulges in that kind of thing in any serious way is extraordinarily against the facts available. It seems pretty clear to me that it is only your biased viewpoint that makes you think that.

Make a convincing argument and maybe myself and other people will listen- but until then, you getting angry and shouting just because you are disagreed with helps nothing.

I like women that age drool

Though it should never be required, if some people actually did bother to stand for the pledge, a few things might fall out of their a$$es.

o...criticising a manditory pledge is the same as spitting on a soldier?

i see it as this: soldiers have fought and died since the founding of america to preserve our 'nit picky rights'. civil liberty is the foundation of our nation, and the second we allow them to be dissolved, then wtf does america stand for?
where is the line drawn?

But not respecting our country is like spitting at them

hysterical Oh stop you are killing me fact man.
USH, DO you do ANYTHING besides quote statistics in an argument?

You dont live here. Sorry, but you're facts don't mean squat to me. And I also, dont care if the entire board thinks I'm raving. Or if they agree with me. 90% of the board are children. As are you if you want to take the age thing into consideration in regards to me. So keep spouting you facts and statistics. You dont live here. Your argument holds no water.

PVS you know exactly what I mean. Donlt jump in here and twist what I mean to suit your purpose.

What I find so amazing is that americans (altho other people do it to) always SEEM to have the idea that soldiers who died in a war the US was waging -applies to about every war they ever fought- was DEFENDING the rights of their own People. If anything they were defending the rights of people other than americans.

Has the US ever been invaded? No
Has there ever been a militairy attack on US soil? Pearl Harbour and 9/11 will about be it?

Then how in godsname can you even start to think that US troops fighting in Iraq, Afghanistan or Vietnam for that matter are defending YOUR rights????

None of those countries had the potential to come and invade your country and take away your rights.

(I left out the 2 World Wars because it would result in an Off Topic discussion about how vital the commitment of US TROOPS was to the defeating of the enemy in Europe)

no napalm, SPITTING on them is like spitting on them.

why must everyone grandstand with ridiculous analogies?

Exactly. This country always touts our freedoms of speech, religion, and expression...our country was formed on these principles...but people get bitched at for trying to use them and protesting them being violated! There's something wrong with that picture.

Wow... that's a rather breaktaking contemptuous statement about the board, JP. I think that most of them here show considerably more maturity than you have in that post.

Very well- if you don't want to engage in rational debate, so be it.

ever heard of the war of 1812 Fire?

No whats wrong is the way people take the constitution and rework it to suit themselves.

Ush you need to use bigger bait there man. Im not biting. Thanks for the laugh though.

Nobody died defending those rights

yea But I didn't back track that far, cause noone mentioned those soldiers

Just have stated in the last century or so.

We just discussed that one at Uni today tho

No one's reworking it, JP, the constitution clearly grants us the freedom of expression, until it infringes on another person's rights. Not standing for the pledge does NOT infringe on another's rights, however, forcing someone to do so DOES indeed infringe on their rights.

It wasnt a contemptous statement of the board. That was fact, check the statistics fact man.

Fire, I'm sorry I didnt bring up each war. It was a generalization. My bad. Star I moved past the original argument. And if you want to use that freedom of expression thing, then that would mean it is ok for someone to go take a leak on someones car because they dont like that person and then say hey, you cant arrest me I was only expressing myself.

People need to get off there lazy hippie asses and just say the damn pledge

Well, I think you would do well to avoid making such wide-ranging slanderous statements and still expect people here to give you any respect.

If you do not want to engage in any point of view or fact that possibly diverges from your own opinion, it does make any form of meaningful contribution from you very difficult, as all you do then is resort to insults.

Like I say. The body of evidence shows that this is not a new phenomenon- all you can do is blame the young for something that is actually a long-term trend.

People like you need to realize that you don't have any say in what other people do and get over it.

Not quite, that's defacing personal property.

Did I ASK for anyone's respect? Pfffft Thats ludicrious, I dont CARE if you agree with me. You really need to open yourself up to that fact.

Man yeah, that IS twisting the constitution to say freedom of expression gives you that right! Certainly twisting what Fire says.

You don't have to bring up each war you have to bring up one war (altho this will again result into the OTF discussion about the commitment of US TROOPS in both World Wars) in the last century in which American soldiers DEFENDED the rights of AMERICANS

Thats the law's take on it. But if the guy felt he was expressing himself, it's basically NO different.

Hmm, frankly, given the passion with which you argue the point and try and cast down anyone who disgrees, I don't see that as a believable statement. If you didn't care, you wouldn't post.

In fact, amny of the most positive things in US history have been borne out of protest against such measures as forcing people into social conformity.

And people like YOU need to stop running around B!tching about every little thing that happens

...did you notice in my post about freedom of expression that it only goes so far until you infringe on the rights of another person?

I kind of think the whole going off to fight Hitler thing may apply here Fire. Just a thought tho. I guess had we not intervened there we could all be living in a Nazi state now, no?

Russian, maybe.

Hmmm...who's the one complaining? Not me, I'm only stating facts, I haven't complained about a damn thing in this thread.

You seem to be the one complaining here...in fact, it's the only thing I ever see you do, is complain without backing up a single thing you say.

I think all americans should be forced to read the works of Locke and Hobbes who actualy came up with about half of the things that are in their constitution. I think that very few people understand those ideas very well.

And people like YOU need to stop running around B!tching about everyone running around B!tching about every little thing that happens.

Unfortunately Lana, the people on the other side of this debate don't want to have any truck with differering facts.

Actually, Im posting cause right now all this is making me laugh so hard Im crying, and given the current state of things going on around me in my persoanl life at the time I needed the laugh.

I'm used to it, and it doesn't bother me one bit. I tend to be on this side of debates quite a bit.

Well I have to agree with Ush. if the US had just backed up the Russians with enough supplies and never sent any troops to fight Hitler. The russians would have done the job.

Oh of course it is!

Well, I can totally discount your views then, which is handy, because they make no sense.

you know the 2 of you are being ridiculous right?

And unfortunately people who aren't Americans, wont accept the FACT they dont know what it is they are talking about. Thats as silly as me even beginning to argue English sentiment.

And feel free, discount away. I am supposssed to be all hurt? What? you want me to leave? HAHAHHAHAHHAHAHA! I told ya Ush. You are using the WRONG bait pal. I'm beyond you pissing me off anymore.

this side refer too?

That would only work if all Americans thought like you... but they don't.

Even so, I am afraid objective history speaks way louder than your own single viewpoint.

JP, m'dear...remember the fact that I AM an American, though. And I do know what I'm talking about, and I have just studied the constitution very recently.

Seems like Emotions are running high here....

Let's cool down a bit everyone. Any hostility and this thread will be closed.

-WD

find any spelling mistakes?

The side where I'm against people who don't like to accept any views but their own.

hmm never heard of that side so you are wrong...............

I wasnt referring to you Alana, I was referring to the Englishmen who thinks he knows Americans intimately.

What I meant is that I had a government class very recently, and my teacher really hammered into us exactly what the various amendments (mostly the bill of rights) meant.

Ah, but SS is an American, and disagrees with you, that was her point.

You are trying to tell me I am wrong to think what I do because all Americans think that way. Aside from the basic premise there being untrue, the fact of it is also wrong. A very great deal of Americans do not think that way, and I find what they say far more convincing than you, and I find the facts agree with them.

Then atleast finaly a person who doesn't hide behind them and abuses them severly

I know some Americans intimately

and we didn't need to know that finti

ohh those found memories of Civics classes

Oh NO NO. Back the truck up there oh arrogant one. I never EVER said ALL Americans do anything.

Most people in the US have no idea what their rights really mean, and twist them totally out of proportion. Like the "right to bear arms"...people see that and think "but it says I can have a gun!" They don't realize that what it really means is that each state has the right to maintain their own militia.

In Illinois (and probably other states as well), you're required to take and pass a government class before you can graduate high school. And it's not like most classes where you can fail a test or two but still be okay if you get a passing final grade...you MUST pass EVERY test in that class. A good half of my class didn't pass and had to retake all the tests. That's sad.

Well, actually, when you brought my nationality into it, you did kinda imply that. And you made out that I could not disagree with what you said because you were a middle-aged American.

I am afraid that logic simply does not scan.

I actually really loved that class -- I like politics (a lot), and my teacher was awesome. I found it very interesting...plus we debated a lot.

Yep, that was the original meaning. Im curious Lana. Do you agree with the last statement?

Ush, Im not going to get all hacked off. Your wrong in my opinion, and nothing you quote or bring as a statistic in here is going to change my mind. Give it up man. You are beating a dead horse.

In these days, it is totally outdated, so I'd have to say that it's pretty pointless today.

yeah that class looks good on my score card from High School

That'd be my take on it as well. But I know some people that consider the National Guard units of each state that very thing. Of course there are a few states that still have their own militias, even if they are in hiding.

Ush, FYI. It was not excluded to annoy the Welsh and neither was it done because the Dragon would not go on. I am surprised that you did not check up on this before posting as one who like to quite and use statistics and facts in arguments.

Union Flag origins

ROTFLMAO Corran! hysterical

Leave it to you to jump in at this moment with that post. You never cease to crack me up. hug

Fair enough!

SO Finti, lets talk about those Americans you know intimately? naughty

Glad to be of some assistance

Aaaaaaand....thread is now likely derailed.

Well lets just move you into my house. You can provide my daily chuckle.

yeah lets, just have to find my black book.......cant rememebr them all, now hmmm 25 pages filled

Yes, but it took 7 pages.

Dang Lana, Corran beat you to it this time.

I tend to not derail threads I'm debating in

Well, if you want to say it is your opinion that's fine, but earlier you stated it as fact. You have also stated it is arrogance which is hardly fair as I have spent the time and trouble to learn about this area and gather opinions, and the balance of ideas in this area does not, as far as I am concerned, agree with you, and others agree with me, and to see that as arrogant is... odd.

Bit late in the day to not get hacked off, I am afraid. But to bring itt
back to base- how do you explain the enormous and demonstrable anti-patrotism of times past, compared with your own view that it is only the younger generation that has ever signifcantly felt like this?

Altho 10 points to Finti for an excellent try back there.

yeah the perfect 10

Though I derailed his attempt at derailing

I would like to know, JP. It's not as if I won't take your opinion aboard. I just haven't had anything from you that backs it yet.

watch it before I derail you

A train derailed around here a few days ago, I bet Finti was to blame for that.

Like to know what? And Finti is to blame for plenty.

Oooh, I'm so scared, Finti

Bottom of the last page, JP.

Question I just asked a few posts ago. If you are so sure that the now is different from what it was then, I'd be interested to hear your reasoning. That is why I asked the question in the first place, right back at the start. As you say, you DID live through a section of that time and therefore you have some authority on the matter. I simply don't take well to saying that I cannot disagree with you because I am not American is all.

that sounded like my teacher back at school

mos t women are their first time but dont worry I`ll be gentle