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who do u think would win i think iceman

Storm's more experienced

thats true, assuming iceman wont be ruthless and do something like removing the moisture from her body or freezing her veins, storm has a good chance but if he goes all out i think he easily wins

there is no mercy in forum Iceman wins.

" ruthless and do something like removing the moisture from her body or freezing her veins, storm has a good chance but if he goes all out i think he easily wins"

Wont be so easy to do to storm remember not only is she resistant to at least arctic level cold(yes i know icemans powers can operate loads lower) but that plus the fact that when she uses her powers she usually has lightning coursing through her body how is he gonna freeze anything? Icemans powers depend on moisture being abundant in the air. Thats the reason why when the xmen have been in arid desert type conditions icemans powers have been severely limited. He couldnt make ice slides for example. All storm has to do is dramatically reduce the ambient moisture in the air and frazzle him. He is after all a super conductor for electricity.

Storm's power is much more versatile. Probably she could dessicate Iceman (or at least the air around him as mentioned above).

I give it to Storm. Plus she is more intelligent so she could use a better strategy.

Hmm...tough one. Storm is a better fighter, and more resourceful. In an actual comic battle, she'd come out on top.

If they both realized their full potential, Iceman would beat her majority of the time.

Storm would win. She has more stuff she could do.

She can do ice stuff as well, or any other type of weather thing as well.

Depends if either one of them wants to be cheap. Iceman can smack Storm with an ice brick, and Storm could hit Iceman with lightning.

Iceman was the founding member of the X-Men...

Here is few words:

Absolute zero at the start of the battle.

Popsicle Storm.

Not THE founding member, that'd be Xavier, but he was on the original team. Cyclops, Angel, Beast, Iceman, and one other, don't remember who...

D00D, it was that red haired chick...

What was her name? The one who dies every second month? And comes back in next one?

lol

Storm wins this. She blasts Iceman with lightning. The whole 'Iceman freezing her blood' idea is loudicrous. If he could really do this, he is among the most powerful beings in comics.You've got to be kidding me. 'Cuz he's not.

"What was her name? The one who dies every second month? And comes back in next one?"

Chamber? Marrow? Shadowcat? One of the other countless names?

Ohhhh JEAN! Right.

-AC

Yes, he can freeze blood. Iceman is an Omega mutant.

And lightning doesn't do shit to Iceman.

He is composed fully from Ice, nowadays.

I'm waiting for the day that they decide Professor X can walk. Goes away for a bit and comes back as a Bruce Lee leveled martial artist.

It's not unlikely in the hands of X-Men writers.

-AC

iceman clicks his fingers, storm drops dead...

ludicrous matchup given icemans current abilities...

It makes perfect sense. The human body is 50-70 water and the Dude freezes stuff with ease. I think freezing just the blood would take some accuracy though.

"I'm waiting for the day that they decide Professor X can walk. Goes away for a bit and comes back as a Bruce Lee leveled martial artist.

It's not unlikely in the hands of X-Men writers."

lol, x-men writers do make it so that after an absense the characters come back insanely powerful but thats kinda cool considering how everyone makes the x-men out to be lame which i dont think they are

Yeah but they are. That's exactly why they write like that. To make them not lame. If you don't want em lame, don't create them lame.

Spider-Man has never had to go on holiday to come back with major powers coz he's the man anyway. It only happens with X-Men coz they need it.

It hasn't happened to Storm or anyone with decent power anyway (under 5 of them). It happens to shitty Ice-Man.

Anyway, Storm. I don't buy how a guy who threw snowballs as a power can now freeze veins.

-AC

Storm is naturally immune to temperature extremes. Insta-freeze attacks on her wouldn't quickly incapacitate her. Iceman, on the other hand, being composed of ice against a lightning wielder, would be susceptible to electrolysis: an electric current running through water that breaks the chemical bonds and reduces the compound to it's base elements, oxygen and hydrogen.

I'd take Storm.

" would be susceptible to electrolysis: an electric current running through water that breaks the chemical bonds and reduces the compound to it's base elements, oxygen and hydrogen."

Is all this science necessary? It's Ice-Man Vs Storm. At least she's an established, consistant character.

-AC

storm is a established strong character but against the new "godlike" iceman shes not much

this is a pretty anti-X-character board, but it clearly doesn't reflect the overall sentiment in the comic world. I think it's perfectly reasonable that Iceman would grow into his powers. They're elementals - there's essentially no real definition to their powers, so going from just being able to throw snowballs to being able to control all ambient temperature is almost a natural progression of power, IMHO.

nicely said demigawd

To control ambient temperature is certainly a conceivable development, if we're being technical.

Controlling veins isn't. It's not an anti-X Character board. I'm not even Anti-X-Men, I like some of the characters that have been in the comics and in the team. I have no fan feeling towards a team constantly changed, milked for cash, messed up, fixed, then messed up again and then to finally save them, they give a snowball thrower Godlike powers.

There's an entire X-Men forum. If you want unbridled Pro-X-Men stuff, go there. This is Vs, so if you put them against someone who's gonna beat them, then I'll say so.

-AC

I don't think anyone said he can control veins. But if you can control ambient temperature, then that's both internal and external. That would include freezing liquids inside the human body. It's just frostbite taken to painful and deadly extremes. What's unrealistic about that?

His power was the ability to more or less, throw snowballs. Now he can psionically freeze the blood in your veins.

Realistic? Hardly. Pathetic when you break it down really.

-AC

But you yourself said that it's a reasonable evolution to control ambient temperature. If you believe that's reasonable, then you HAVE to accept that part of controlling ambient temperature is being able to freeze the human body, or parts of it - because the human body DOES freeze in cold temperature.

"But you yourself said that it's a reasonable evolution to control ambient temperature."

If you're created with that potential. Look at X-Men one, first one ever.

When you've read it, tell me that they created Ice-Man with that potential. They didn't.

-AC

its been a gradual process over about forty years, he was 14 when he started, his powers have been growing and evolving since then...

its not that far fetched...

"its been a gradual process oover about forty years, he was 14 when he started, his powers have been growing and evolving since then..."

Really? Or is that just what they told you when he came back and said "Guys, look what I can do now"?

Yeah.

-AC

So what? Each comic has DOZENS of writers. OF COURSE, they're not all conceived the same way. But that's true with every comic - a character evolves, s/he discovers new things about himself, things s/he can do that he didn't realize he can do.

I'm a musician by talent. I didn't know I had the potential to be a technology consultant - I always figured I sucked at the left brain stuff. Lo and behold...I was wrong.

This is no different.

"So what? Each comic has DOZENS of writers. OF COURSE, they're not all conceived the same way. But that's true with every comic - a character evolves, s/he discovers new things about himself, things s/he can do that he didn't realize he can do."

I'm talking about when he was created by his creator. Not when a writer (and it's no coincident who gave him these psionic powers) decides that he's gonna make a character Godlike.

"I'm a musician by talent. I didn't know I had the potential to be a technology consultant - I always figured I sucked at the left brain stuff. Lo and behold...I was wrong."

Talk about height of irrelevance. You can go and learn how to be a technological consultant. You were born with the potential to learn almost anything you want. Ice-Man wasn't created with the potential to control all ambient temperature. Rather silly.

-AC

no, its a case of them not being just having their powers...

the avengers, the fantastic four and practically every other hero has had the same powers since their inception...

the x-men were created in the sixties... all the original members, cyclops, jean, beast, angel and iceman have grown up and evolved... they started as teens, most heroes don't...

is it so hard to conceive that they are eveolving, which is a given being that they are mutants?

yes there has been some god awful writing over the years, but there has been some great writing too...

x-men are different from other comics... simple...

"the x-men were created in the sixties... all the original members, cyclops, jean, beast, angel and iceman have grown up and evolved... they started as teens, most heroes don't... is it so hard to conceive that they are eveolving, which is a given being that they are mutants? yes there has been some god awful writing over the years, but there has been some great writing too... x-men are different from other comics... simple..."

The evolution is assumed. It's an assumption. You are assuming Ice-Man was always evolving just because you were told he was when he got those powers. Never was I given a reason to believe he was evolving. In all the X-Men, X-Force, X-Factor I ever read he was Ice-Man. Just strolling around on slides. Not freezing blood.

The fact that there has been some great writing (which there has, I love some X-Men stuff) doesn't change the fact that Ice-Man having Godlike powers is terrible. He comes back and says "Those 40 years? When I never changed? Yeah. Secretly evolving. Unknown to you. No other writer believes me, except one."

-AC

don't even go there. Iceman's power up had absolutely NOTHING to do with Claremont. Claremont has almost NEVER written Iceman.

You're showing your bias if you think for a second that he and other X-men are the only characters who have exceeded the powers envisioned for them by their creators. Superman couldn't even fly when he was conceived. Graviton couldn't create blackholes when he was conceived. Spider-Man can now create organic webs. Torch wasn't conceived with the ability to make fire dopplegangers of himself or absorb heat. Invisible "Girl" didn't become a powerhouse for years. Thanos was beaten by Spider-Man and taken away in handcuffs by the police!!! C'mon man...be reasonable.



But, there are things that you naturally have talent in and things you don't think you can do until you realize you could all along. That's my point and that's describes Iceman to a T.



Nothing silly about it at all. People often don't know their potential until they realize it.

"Superman couldn't even fly when he was conceived. Graviton couldn't create blackholes when he was conceived. Spider-Man can now create organic "

Superman, was the generic Superhero. Every superhero worth their salt had flying ability then. Gravity is part of black holes. Spider-Man can create organic webs. Whilst I think that's a BS and don't agree with it really, given the history, I can see why it's done. Ice-Man went from throwing snow to freezing blood in veins.

"Thanos was beaten by Spider-Man and taken away in handcuffs by the police!!! C'mon man...be reasonable."

As proven in the other thread, you obviously feel you have to accept shit writing. I don't.

"But, there are things that you naturally have talent in and things you don't think you can do until you realize you could all along. That's my point and that's describes Iceman to a T."

No there's not. It just means you'll be better. Hendrix had natural talent. I could become a guitarist. I don't have the potential to be a Hendrix.

"Nothing silly about it at all. People often don't know their potential until they realize it."

Who believed Ice-Man had that power before he actually got it given to him? No one I knew. Don't try and tell me you sat there through the 90s and said "This guy....he has the potential to freeze blood and stuff".

-AC

You're avoiding the point - the point is that you're criticizing Iceman and X-men exceeding their original capabilities as if it's somehow unique to them. Superman started off as a guy who could run faster than a train, and could only jump high. He can now fly at flight speed and move planets. If that's not an example of him exceeding his original potential, then I can't help you.


Changing the temperature is part of making ice



You can see how that happened MORE than you can see Iceman going from generating ice to changing temperatures? Ridiculous.



He went from being able to freeze water molecules in the air to create ice objects and to cover himself in ice (which he's always done) to being able to freeze water molecules in things other than the air. Not that much of a stretch.



But it's not shit writing. EVERY Thanos appearance was like that. For YEARS. He just wasn't conceived as a bigwig until the 80s.



It doesn't matter what you believe - it's a sensible progression. If you can freeze water molecules to make ice, you can freeze water molecules to make it cold outside and you can freeze water molecules inside a person's body. Makes sense to me.

iceman is one of the most neglected x-men characters ever... once the giant sized x-men came along he was on the background...

singling out iceman is not fair, jean is a galaxy destroying super b*tch, beast looks like a lion king reject, angel has practically become an actual angel, and cyclops has gone steadily downhill since the 90s...

the original five are barely prominent anymore, the emergence of storm, wolverine, bishop, emma and gambit has pushed the originals to the backjground... read uncanny x-men...

iceman could always lower his own body temperature, isn't as natural an extension (in xmen context) as you can get to have him use that ability on others?

"the point is that you're criticizing Iceman and X-men exceeding their original capabilities as if it's somehow unique to them. "

No, just Ice-Man.

"Changing the temperature is part of making ice"

And? Did I say he shouldn't create ice?

"You can see how that happened MORE than you can see Iceman going from generating ice to changing temperatures? Ridiculous."

Read please. I said I can see why it's done. Not how it happened. I said I don't agree with it. Try again.

"But it's not shit writing. EVERY Thanos appearance was like that. For YEARS. He just wasn't conceived as a bigwig until the 80s."

And remained so into 2005. Ice-Man didn't become a big wig until this year. Majorly. Coz he's shit and they needed an excuse to make him not so.

"It doesn't matter what you believe - it's a sensible progression. If you can freeze water molecules to make ice, you can freeze water molecules to make it cold outside and you can freeze water molecules inside a person's body. Makes sense to me."

This coming from someone who said "If Storm controls the weather she controls the air once it's inside your body". Doesn't make sense to me this vein freezing stuff. Well, if I had been given reason to believe he was capable rather than "I went away and honed by skills", maybe. I wasn't. For 40 years he was nothing.

"iceman could always lower his own body temperature, isn't as natural an extension (in xmen context) as you can get to have him use that ability on others?"

He can lower his, not other peoples. "I was born with the ability to lower my body temperature. I went away, trained, now I can do it to you."

Sounds dumb.

-AC

Back to the topic, people!

Who would win?

I think Storm. For reasons that we got off topic for and because I think she has better powers to get the job done.

-AC

I quoted you multiple examples of people who have also exceeded the vision by their creators - including two members of your beloved Fantastic Four. You're singling out Iceman because you're biased. There's no difference between Iceman discovering more about his power and Torch discovering more about his.



Actually, in this same post you said: He can lower his, not other peoples. "I was born with the ability to lower my body temperature. I went away, trained, now I can do it to you."

Obviously, if that was all he could do, he couldn't create ice, right? And if can create ice, that means he has control over temperatures, right? And if he can control temperatures, then he can make people feel cold, right? And if he can make people feel cold...he can FREEZE THEIR BODIES, right?

I'm completely missing why you find this so hard to believe.



Wrong, wrong wrong. Iceman was shown as having that potential since X-factor, when he had to wear a special belt to control his power. This isn't a sudden thing - it's been 20+ years in the making.



Nonsense - he was conceived in the 70s, largely disappeared on Claremont's run, re-appeared at the start of X-factor, and almost immediately was shown as having extreme potential, to the point where he couldn't really control his power. This is NOT an all of a sudden thing.




He controls temperatures. If you accept that, then you should be able to accept that he can control temperatures of other things - because he controls temperatures.

"I quoted you multiple examples of people who have also exceeded the vision by their creators - including two members of your beloved Fantastic Four. You're singling out Iceman because you're biased. There's no difference between Iceman discovering more about his power and Torch discovering more about his."

Easy tiger. They're not MY Fantastic Four. Nor are they beloved. Stop trying to back yourself up. Secondly, no I'm not biased. I read X-Men for years. Ask PR if you want proof that I don't hate them. I post about X-Men I like and like reading about in the X-Men forum, I'm not biased toward the X-Men. Stop clinging to that.

"Obviously, if that was all he could do, he couldn't create ice, right? And if can create ice, that means he has control over temperatures, right? And if he can control temperatures, then he can make people feel cold, right? And if he can make people feel cold...he can FREEZE THEIR BODIES, right? I'm completely missing why you find this so hard to believe."

There is a difference between controlling something connected to you and something completely independant of you. Like I said to you, if I was given consistant proof over the years of him developing, yes. Even if I didn't agree I'd acknowledge it as credible. He didn't, he went away and came back as some demi-God. No pun intended.

"Wrong, wrong wrong. Iceman was shown as having that potential since X-factor, when he had to wear a special belt to control his power. This isn't a sudden thing - it's been 20+ years in the making."

The belt that was streamlining his powers you mean. Don't confuse control with focus. Ice-Man's power has not been 20 years in the making man, come on.

"Nonsense - he was conceived in the 70s, largely disappeared on Claremont's run, re-appeared at the start of X-factor, and almost immediately was shown as having extreme potential, to the point where he couldn't really control his power. This is NOT an all of a sudden thing."

He wasn't even a focal point in X-Factor, X-Men junior. You're only proving my point that he doesn't really matter much.

"He controls temperatures. If you accept that, then you should be able to accept that he can control temperatures of other things - because he controls temperatures."

Read what I said about "development".

-AC

its evolution...

and some of us don't think its dumb...

"its evolution... and some of us don't think its dumb..."

You were told it was. I never had any reason to believe so.

-AC

there are loads of other heroes you could use that reasoning with...

We're talking about Ice-Man.

If you mean Sue Storm, she always had headaches, mad bursts of unexplainable power. Ice-Man had nothing. Oh, the "belt".

-AC

Look. It's stupid that Iceman, of all characters,should be pumped into some kind of god like being. It's completely insane. Storm should win this, but knowing that Iceman has ultimate powers(suddenly) which even defy scientific logic, Ill say that my homegirl can'twin.

sue would be low on my list...

iceman started off able to lower his own temperature, then evolved and was able to do it to others, not much of a stretch...



of all people? and what makes storm so special?

"iceman started off able to lower his own temperature, then evolved and was able to do it to others, not much of a stretch..."

No. You were told he evolved. If that's "good" enough for you, fine.

-AC

What?? So special for what?? You mean special enough to take down God?? Nothing. She's just more powerful.(should be but...)

no, its been explained pretty well. iceman has gradually eveolved but never tried to expand his abilities, that was until he was possessed by emma frost, who figured out that his powers were more verastile than even she imagined... she trained iceman to use his powers more effectively...

we were told most x-men had evolved... we were also told a lot of things in comics...



she has no god given right to be more powerful, just because your a fan, you aint joe quesada...

What????? That makes no sense!! No 'right' tobemore powerful???? Noone has a 'right'tobe more powerful than anybody!! And what makes you any diferrent fromme?? You are obviously an Ice fan. None of us is anything but 'joe quesada' on this site. We can only speculate. So stop with this crappy 'I'm better than you 'cuz I like himand you like him' logic, would ya!!!!!! God. Oh, sorry, Iceman!!!!

did you even read my or your own posts?

you said she should be more powerful, yet you didn't say why...

there are plenty of characters i like more than iceman, including storm...

To call it evolution would be severe retconning in the X-Men case, clearly.

It appears one of the current sacred cows is going to fall either way though.

I would back Ice-Man definitely. Storm has never impressed me at all, and given Ice-Man's current state- questionable or not- he isn't having any trouble with this.

Exactly.

"no, its been explained pretty well. iceman has gradually eveolved but never tried to expand his abilities, that was until he was possessed by emma frost, who figured out that his powers were more verastile than even she imagined... she trained iceman to use his powers more effectively..."

This is what we were told.

-AC

well what would you prefer? seriously, they were invented in the sixties, comic audiences were a lot less demanding back then...

i mean i'm seriously asking, what do you think they should do to explain his abilities?

Storm can make the weather hotter. Then Iceman starts to sweat. THE END.

PR: It happened with Jean whe SHE developed her powers. She started having fits and bouts of mad power outage.

What did Ice-Man do? Nothing. If you're gonna ask me as a reader to accept that ICE-MAN, given his pathetic history, should now be ranked up as an omega, at least give me reason. I haven't been given any.

-AC

HOLD ON, when did Spiderman Start making organic webbing???

alpha, i'm not saying iceman has the greatest origin, but the fact is he's not as primary a character as jean, and the phoenix is one of the biggest incidents in the history of the x-men...

icemans were not simply a switch, they happened gradually, we didn't see because they don't affect him the way jeans powers expanding affect hers. hers forced themselves upon her in a manner that would with any psychic...

iceman had been the carefree class clown up until emma frost got a hold of him, he didnt simply go away and return with his powers, they had been there for quite a while, he was just too thick to try and use them...

look at people like storm... she has barely been developing at all... yet now she's all powerful. cyclops is still seen as a guy with puny eye beams... colossus for years had been quoted in comics as being stronger the older he got... yet nobody seems to realise it...

just because it wasn't spelled out doesn't make it any less valid than the others...

i do understand where your coming from, i just don't share your view...

Well then you not sharing my view doesn't make it wrong.

-AC

i never said it did, in fact your one of the few people i enjoy debating with... your almost as stubborn as me

omg alpha centuri and demigawd keep going at each other you guys should have one of those contest thread things

We never go at each other, at all.

-AC

i dont mean it like that but like you two are probably the best debators here you each have a counter agrument for what the other says u should make one of those each of u makes a team and debates whos is better

I think (and have openly said to him) that alot of what he comes up with is ridiculous, doesn't mean I dislike him or will throw insults at him. Nor he to me, hence why I don't mind debating with him.

I don't need a team.

-AC

i didnt say u should team up i said that both or you are good debators and know what your talking about

Storm. In my opinion.

Why should I say why Storm should be stronger?? Why don't you say why Iceman is fit to be fitter?

Wow, there's an idea. I always thought debating was about who can put the most song titles in any given post.

What's Going On?

i never said why he or she should be...

but he IS more powerful...

if anything they are equally powerful. storm can take away all the moisture in the air, which will make it a little hard for him. a very small bomb has exploded him bofore so a really big lightning bolt should too.

Read what I wrote - I said that Iceman can control temperatures, I said Iceman has ALWAYS been able to control temperatures, even in his earliest appearance. You said earlier that even YOU accept the fact that he can control ambient temperature in the environment. So whether he can control something independent of him is not up for debate - that's how he's been creating his ice bridges and ice blasts all this time - he's been controlling something independent of himself.

Secondly, that's not how it happened. He didn't go away and come back a demi-god. Here's EXACTLY how his evolution took place, and if you can't accept this as 20 years in the making, then you're just being stubborn:

1. Loki increased Bobby's powers IN THE 80s to the point where he froze everything he touched. He had to have a belt designed to CONTROL his powers, so that he DIDN'T freeze everything he touched.

2. Mikhail Rasputin later used his reality-warping powers to force Iceman into his full Ice state, instead of just covering himself with snow. Iceman learned afterwards that it was something he could always do, but Mikhail forced it out of him - it was his first glimpse into his potential. And this was IN THE 80s. He learned how to bulk himself up, turn completely into ice, and even levitate without using his ice bridge (but he doesn't really use that power anymore).

3. Years later, Emma's mind was transferred into his body, and she went crazy with his powers, doing all kinds of incredible stuff. When Bobby got his mind back, he kept having visions of what she was doing as him - and he finally went to her for help, where she helped him reform from having his chest blown up.

4. He also went to Storm for help on better ways of harnessing his power. This was in the 90s. She helped him perceive the world in terms of temperatures, and having the ability to affect those temperatures to both decrease (which he already knew) or...to INCREASE.

5. Finally, when he was selected as by Prosh as part of a team to defeat the Stranger, who corrupted his program, Prosh pushed Iceman's powers to their ultimate potential, which included the ability to disperse into water molecules and reappear from great distances, and to reform himself after being vaporized.

So in other words, you whole contention that he just appeared one day with all these powers is ill-informed.

BUT - you did say that if you were provided with proof that his evolution was gradual, you'd accept it even if you didn't agree with it. I just showed you 20 years worth of evolution - do you accept it?

A couple of months ago. He was possessed by Cap's ex-girlfriend, who is now some kind of mega Spider lady, and she got Peter pregnant and...it was terrible. But at the end of the story, he developed a bunch of new powers. Organic webbing was one of them.

AC is cool - I just think he has a tendency to oversimplify things to the point where he can't accept logical extensions. I tend to accept things where a logical explantion is given. But people have their own style of perceiving and doing things, and in the end, none of it is wrong, they're just...opinions.

Don't lecture me about not reading posts. First you said that I should read all of the posts, and I should explain why Storm should be more powerful, but now you are just saying that Iceman should be more powerful. No reasons. Nothing just... he should. Common!! keep it consistent,dude!!!!

storm is prolly more powerful- if emma had never taken hold of his body then he wouldn't be as advanced as he is wioth his powers, she taught him how to do things that he never wpuld have attempted. so many people have taught him how to develop his powers that he probably doesn't fully know them. when storm joined the x-men she already had full control of her powers. no one has hardly helped her develop them, so she is more expierenced with her powers.

if thee is no moisture in the air then it will be hard for him to use his powers. also storm can make it hotter than 100 degrees so it can be really hot. lightning can be a lot more than 5,000 degrees so it will definitley hurt him. if she keeps hitting him with lightning really quickly then he prolly won't have a chance to hit her. storm will be able to destroy his slide which makes it like useless. she definitley can pin him to the ground making it more hard for him. if she just keeps hitting him with lightning he will eventually be done- either way she can definitley beat him

Stormfront, do you ever NOT vote for Storm? Seriously?

So that I don't have to quote every bit, allow me to point out something:

Demi, what you just showed is far from natural progression. "Too dumb to use his powers", apparantly not. Apparantly he had to be augmented every single step of the way.

"BUT - you did say that if you were provided with proof that his evolution was gradual, you'd accept it even if you didn't agree with it. I just showed you 20 years worth of evolution - do you accept it?"

I wasn't given reason to believe he has the capability to freeze veins or the blood in them. I was given multiple examples that I already knew about as to how he got his powers to become more than throwing snowballs, which was through other people. He didn't possess the ability to reach "potential" on his own. I see heavily aided progression, I don't see this natural progression you said he had. I've read those same comics, the fact that I don't believe he is worthy of the powers he has is because I've read those comics and haven't been given reason to agree he deserves them.

On topic, I believe Storm wins for reasons I have stated before.

-AC

...And Iceman changes the temperature of the entire area to absolute zero. Storm drops from the air.

I'd accept either outcome as being valid -- it's a closely contested battle. I wrote earlier that I think Storm would win because she's more of a warrior. But, I think I'll argue Iceman's side now.



Why does that matter? ok, so Iceman had people helping him. It doesn't matter HOW he got to be as good with his powers as he is now, all that matters is that he IS as good with these powers as he is now.



I take the opposite view - so many people have taught him how to develop his pwers that he does have awesome control over them now. But...he's still not functioning at max, and that's scary.

There was a "future issue" of X-men once, where Iceman went nuts and some of the X-men were hunting him down. He actually HID inside the water molecules in the atmosphere so they had no idea that he was even in the room. Suddenly, an ice spike comes out of nowhere and impales Gambit. A split second later the other X-man (Beast or Angel...can't remember) immediately freezes, falls to the ground and shatters. Until then, they had no idea he was even there. Their only cue they were fighting him came from their deaths.

Now THAT'S bad ass.

Either way, Demi believes Storm will win as do I. Debating Ice-Man's powers can go in the "Ice-Man's powers" thread.

-AC

ok - he was augmented and showed what to do. That's fine. But he was augmented and showed what to do over 20 years to reach the state where he's at now. That was my point. Yours was that he showed up one day super-powerful because the writers just "decided" it. That didn't happen.



You're trying to change the debate. The point we were debating wasn't whether or not he "naturally" got his powers (aside from Loki, all his powers were natural, just taught). The point we were debating was whether he has the capability of freezing veins and all that at all. You said he has no such capability and the fact that he'd "go away one day and come back and say 'look guys I've been practicing'" is idiotic. I showed otherwise. WHO helped him get there is meaningless. The point is he was taught and shown over the course of years how to get there. Now he's there. I see nothing stupid, wrong, impossible, or contrived about that.



When I say "natural", I mean "gradual", as in it wasn't this sudden thing you kept saying it was. He got a magic power up by Loki, but everything else he was always capable of doing - it just took other people showing him what he's capable of. But so what? Some people need more guidance than others.



Well, now you're arguing something different. Whether or not he "deserves" his powers is something else entirely. I have no opinion on that - I think you get what you get, and if you're a hero, you'll use it to its best, regardless of how you got it. I don't think Molecule Man is deserving of his powers either, but...who cares?

But you're right...further replies on this topic on the other thread.

Yeah Iceman has had a "logical" progression with his powers
He went from being covered with snow and only being able to throw snowballs..

....to being covered with ice and creating ice slopes to slide on...
....to a point in X-factor where he had no control of his abilities(he ended up taking down the Gray Hulk during this "lack of control" period)
....to his powers being f****d with by Colussus brother, giving him further control over his abilities....(can't remember his name..think it's Nicholi)
....to being f****d with by Loki....
....to...aww sh*t you get the point...lol...

Ice Man has always been a force to be reckoned with...it's good to see that he's now being treated that way in the X-books...

Anyway....after all my fanboyistic rantings about ice man's progression...lol...I still see Storm winning this battle...after all she controls the elements...and ice is an element right? So I think she would figure out a way to control Bobby with her powers. Besides Storm is stronger willed than Bobby, and even if she was to be outclassed power wise..she would not give up the fight easily...

I listed the exact progression of his powers on another page, but you're pretty much on point with your progression list.

I don't know if Storm could control Bobby - I think the nature of Bobby's powers are more granular than Storm's. Storm has atmospheric control - she can command the atmosphere to do certain things. Bobby's control really seems to be molecular - the fact that he can freeze and unfreeze things shows that he actually controls the SPEED that molecules spin. that overrides general atmospheric control. So Bobby could exert more immediate and complete control over the environment than Storm could.

Considering you said his progression was natural and considering the reason we were given in the comics was that he decided to test his limits, is the reason why I think like I do.

You don't, after 25 plus years, randomly think "I'll go and see how far I can get when I'm not augmented". It wasn't as natural as you claimed it to be, it was quite out of the blue. You listed a few occurances over a 25 plus year period. In respect, that's not alot. Certainly not enough for me to believe that he could straight away get to where he was. He wasn't shown that he had more power, just that he could streamline it.

Like I said, we can do this in an "Ice-Man's powers" thread.

-AC

Originally posted by demigawd
I listed the exact progression of his powers on another page, but you're pretty much on point with your progression list.

I don't know if Storm could control Bobby - I think the nature of Bobby's powers are more granular than Storm's. Storm has atmospheric control - she can command the atmosphere to do certain things. Bobby's control really seems to be molecular - the fact that he can freeze and unfreeze things shows that he actually controls the SPEED that molecules spin. that overrides general atmospheric control. So Bobby could exert more immediate and complete control over the environment than Storm could.

Uh...oh..the old mixing comics with science debate..lol...well I don't know..it's possible that Storm does have some control of the atmosphere on a "molecular" level...it would seem logical that she would have to..in order to control the weather in the way that she does...I could be wrong on this though...Marvel really doesn't go in to the scientific specifics of her power...and to be honest with you...I barely made it past freshman chemistry..lol...but who really cares...all I know is that she is much stronger willed/determined/and adept at using her abilities than Bobby is with his..so although it might be a tough battle..grit/willpower/experience and determination win the day...at least in my humble opinion...

the fact that he's nigh impossible to kill and has superior control of his powers gives him the edge imo...



i never said he should, i said he WAS... difference... for more:



don't even attempt to lecture me about consistency...

Oh calm it down people. Now this will be my last post on Ice-Man's powers, I've already stated who I think would win and why.

First off the Loki/Belt thing, Loki overloaded his power and he had to wear the belt to calm it down, nothing natural about it.

Look, does that not strike you as odd PR? Ice-Man Bobby Drake......nigh unkillable? Rather than the writers just saying Emma helped him and that he had potential, why don't they show us how she helped him? Oh they did. "She showed him that he had the potential and then he used it". Well......wasn't as if he went away for a very long time, trained up on his own and came back with the ability and an explanation as to why. You're just assuming that coz she showed him he had some major potential, that he could reach it instantly just coz he knew he had it.

Victor Von Doom raised an excellent point:

If a drummer is smashing away stupidly on drums and his teacher comes in and says "Don't be stupid with that. You have the potential to become Terry Bozzio in time", does that mean that the drummer can now go "Wow. I know I have the potential, watch me instantly gain access to the potential and play like Terry"? No it doesn't. If he went home and said to his mum "I can play Terry Bozzio drum solos", "How?", "Teacher showed me I had potential to."

Having the potential to be great when you're shit doesn't mean you're gonna automatically be great upon being told you can be great. Same applies to Ice-Man.

Emma: You have the potential to be able to freeze the air around you completely, as well as the blood in people's veins!
Ice-Man: You're right, I do have the potential....wow, now I can do it.

Yeah, pretty ridiculous. With training and practise he could do that probably. However, being told by Emma and then going away for a bit doesn't mean shit. Knowing he had the potential doesn't mean he can instantly live up to it.

-AC

i never said he did... she psychically trained him to use what abilities he'd never bothered to use in the first place...

i do know what you mean, nobody automatically gains abilities, thats why he had to train and experiment to figure out anything... but i don't see it outside of his reach to attain that level of skill eventually...

as for his being hard to kill...

the fact that he can reconstruct his body after almost any injury is the one thing that always seemed unusual to me, but hey, this is comics, not real life...

i know we'll never agree about his origins, and whether either of us like it or not marvel has given him these abilities, and i believe they are sufficient to defeat storm...

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Oh calm it down people. Now this will be my last post on Ice-Man's powers, I've already stated who I think would win and why.

First off the Loki/Belt thing, Loki overloaded his power and he had to wear the belt to calm it down, nothing natural about it.


We're using different definitions of "natural". When I said "natural progression", I meant it wasn't sudden, like you were saying. Loki amped his powers up, it changed the nature of his potential (possibly). But that was 20 years ago. He's spent all the time in-between trying to harness it.



Well, you're assuming that Bobby hasn't practiced. There's a lot that goes on off-panel in the lives of the X-men. For several years in the mid-90s, Bobby was one of the focal points. During that time, he DID expand his capabilities significantly AND gradually. Think about it. He goes from (in order):

70s
1) Snow man throwing snowballs
2) Shooting ice
3) Creating ice bridges

80s
4) Replacing his body with ice
5) Controlling temperatures outside for non-ice-making purposes
6) Freezing objects by touch

90s
7) Controlling temperatures inside other people
8) Building his body in more powerful configurations/shape-changing
9) Reconstituting his body out of water vapor
10) Traveling as water vapor to move large distances quickly

So he's clearly been practicing a lot to even get to that point - by the time the whole Emma thing came into play, he had learned 1-6. He mentioned he was doing a lot of practicing on his own using the memories imprinted in him by Emma, but still didn't know how to re-build is body after the hole was blown in him. He actually attacked Emma with some of the tricks he was practicing to convince her to help him - that included lowering the temperature in her brain. The only thing he got from her was being shocked into reforming his body - and that was because his life depended on it. Several issues later (or before, I can't remember), he went to Storm for help in controlling his powers. She agreed, but all of their training was off-panel.

Nope - still nothing sudden about his powers. He practiced just like anybody else.

"thats why he had to train and experiment to figure out anything... but i don't see it outside of his reach to attain that level of skill eventually..."

Where did he train? Did you see this training? I never.

"He's spent all the time in-between trying to harness it."

No he didn't. I read X-Men, X-Factor and X-Force, I never once saw him trying to harness anything. Hence my position.

"Well, you're assuming that Bobby hasn't practiced. There's a lot that goes on off-panel in the lives of the X-men. For several years in the mid-90s, Bobby was one of the focal points. During that time, he DID expand his capabilities significantly AND gradually. Think about it. He goes from (in order):"

Hahahaha. You tell me I'm assuming that he's practiced then go on to tell me that alot goes on "off-panel". Please...don't do that to yourself. Why am I to assume he trained to the max if I never saw him do it?

"So he's clearly been practicing a lot to even get to that point"

Clearly? Off-panel clearly? "Never seen it but better go along with it anyway" clearly? No thanks.

"He mentioned he was doing a lot of practicing on his own using the memories imprinted in him by Emma, but still didn't know how to re-build is body after the hole was blown in him. He actually attacked Emma with some of the tricks he was practicing to convince her to help him - that included lowering the temperature in her brain."

This all comes down to the writer just telling you he'd been practising. I was given no reason, evidence or proof to show that he had done anything to get himself to that point. It's the most desperate move in comic history.

"Several issues later (or before, I can't remember), he went to Storm for help in controlling his powers. She agreed, but all of their training was off-panel. Nope - still nothing sudden about his powers. He practiced just like anybody else."

Don't tell me I'm making assumptions when all the training that lead to him being this God, never took place in a single comic. I rest my case.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
"thats why he had to train and experiment to figure out anything... but i don't see it outside of his reach to attain that level of skill eventually..."

Where did he train? Did you see this training? I never.


He debuted his increased control over his powers in Ship, in a simulated "danger room". He said he'd been practicing to get a handle on his new power levels. Are we supposed to devote multiple issues to his specific training regimen?



See above. He also TOLD Emma he'd been practicing. Remember, he went to her for help, she chided him because he didn't learn anything despite having a basic guidebook implanted in his head consisting of his memories of her. She said that the only reason why he's not doing that stuff is because he doesn't WANT to. Iceman responded by saying that she's wrong, he's been practicing...then nails her with a brain freeze.

I don't need (or want) to see entire issues of him with some physics book open in the danger room training. If he says, "I've been practicing", it's meant to assume that he has been. And I can't think of a single comic character outside of, like, Generation X or New Mutants who has devoted tons of on-panel time practicing. It just doesn't happen. To expect that of Iceman when it doesn't work that way for anybody is just plain silly.



Because he said he did it. What? He's lying now? C'mon - who really wants to see him practicing issue after issue? NOBODY does that. Be reasonable, man.



Well, first off, he isn't any kind of god, even now. He's STILL not functioning to his fullest potential. A lot of the tricks Emma did as him, he hasn't done much of at all. Even now. So he's still very much a work in progress. His state now is a very reasonable and mature end result of what's come before. If anything, I'd say he SHOULD be more powerful than they're showing him.

alpha... its been stated so many times that the x-men train daily for several hours (excluding weekends)...

almost every x-men has developed and evolved over the years...

"He also TOLD Emma he'd been practicing. Remember, he went to her for help, she chided him because he didn't learn anything despite having a basic guidebook implanted in his head consisting of his memories of her. She said that the only reason why he's not doing that stuff is because he doesn't WANT to. Iceman responded by saying that she's wrong, he's been practicing..."

Here's how it is: If you're gonna give someone like Ice-Man, powers like he has now, I wanna see specific reasons, methods and actions as to how they got that way. I don't buy him "telling" Emma, or assuming what happens off panel. If you're gonna make such a drastic and desperate maneuver, I wanna know EXACTLY why. Don't assume I'm just gonna suck it up and agree.

"If he says, "I've been practicing", it's meant to assume that he has been. And I can't think of a single comic character outside of, like, Generation X or New Mutants who has devoted tons of on-panel time practicing. It just doesn't happen. To expect that of Iceman when it doesn't work that way for anybody is just plain silly."

Someone of Ice-Man's previous calibre, to gaining what he has now, deserves explaination. Not just "I've been training Em" or "Yeah....been working hard". You can assume that, if you want to. I don't because I'm not a sucker. I don't believe that I have to assume everything.

"Because he said he did it. What? He's lying now? C'mon - who really wants to see him practicing issue after issue? NOBODY does that. Be reasonable, man."

I've said before, if you're gonna make such a drastic change, I wanna see why. Not just be told. I'm not saying that with everyone, because not everyone is that much of a drastic change. You accept FAR too much in comics Demi. Torch gets put out with a fire extinguisher: "Well ok if they think so". Ice-Man can freeze blood: "Ok well if that's what they think". Thanos arrested: "I guess it's ok if they decide it".

I am not like that. If something is quite clearly off kilter and shit, I'm not going to acknowledge it nor agree with it.

I love the way the whole thing Vic and I raised about potential got dodged and not referred to again.

"alpha... its been stated so many times that the x-men train daily for several hours (excluding weekends)...almost every x-men has developed and evolved over the years..."

This is irrelevant though. If someone says "Oh yeah the X-Men train every day". That's realistic....humans go to the gym every day. They don't go in and come out looking like The Terminator just because they have the potential to look that way.

The fact is, Ice-Man was told he had potential to do all these things...........then he did them. Which is BS. You don't reach potential based on the fact that you know you've got it.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
The fact is, Ice-Man was told he had potential to do all these things...........then he did them. Which is BS. You don't reach potential based on the fact that you know you've got it.

-AC

cyclops had the potential to level buildings, now he has the ability, colosuss has steadily grown in strength, angel can heal the sick... how often have we seen panel by panel these things happening?

"cyclops had the potential to level buildings, now he has the ability, colosuss has steadily grown in strength, angel can heal the sick... how often have we seen panel by panel these things happening?"

When Cyclops has been in situations of anger or stress, he's flipped and shown power beyond that which he's used before, unaided. Same with Colossus. Angel healing the sick was always implied because.......he's an angel.

Ice-Man has been aided or forced unnaturally every step of the way. The fact remains, potential or not, your argument was that he was too dumb to realise it. Emma made him realise it. So? You don't gain access to them upon realisation. Like I said, if you told me I could look like Arnold by going to the gym, I couldn't go there and come out looking like him. I'd have to work and work and work to get there. Ice-Man just told us he did, I never saw it, neither did you, neither did Demi.

-AC

cyclops didn't have that ability in the older comics, we never saw colossus train to improve himself, same with any x-man...

would you read a comic back to back pages of iceman training?

"cyclops didn't have that ability in the older comics, we never saw colossus train to improve himself, same with any x-man...would you read a comic back to back pages of iceman training?"

It was implied that he did, purely coz he had to wear a visor. I saw Colossus train many times so I can see why. I still don't agree with "Voila, he's now got a new strength level".

Would I read that? No. What I said was, I would like an explanation and proof.

You are dodging the fact that Ice-Man getting these powers was "You can do it Bobbyyyyy!" "Yeah I can".....and boom. He has them.

Sounds like BS to me, because it is.

-AC

i'm not dodging anything, he didn't just reach that potential instantaneously, its been explained how his powers changed over the years... and how he developed them...

angel could never heal until recently, cyclops wore the visor for the simple fact that without it he would be blind, and shades aren't practical in combat. his blasts to this day are considered weak by so many idiots... we never saw his powers develop, we were told they did... we never saw colossus' strength increase, it just did, same with most x-men...

what proof do you require? im seriously asking...

Originally posted by pr1983
his blasts to this day are considered weak by so many idiots...

Could actually feel the frustration permeating through the screen.

Hahahaha same here.

"what proof do you require? im seriously asking..."

If you haven't picked it up, not sure you ever will.

-AC

Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
Could actually feel the frustration permeating through the screen.

my apologies... just when people don't like the character they use the old 'puny eye beams' argument...

once again i'm sorry...

alpha, you claim to want to have it spelled out for you, your an intelligent guy, and i would never try to insult your intelligence, don't insult mine...

.........I'm not insulting you.

I've stated many times what I consider "proof". Spelling it out wasn't one of them. If you don't get it, I'm not gonna keep saying it.

-AC

i spelled out my argument, you just seemed to ignore it...

marvel has spent more developing iceman than half the xmen, if that isnt enough for you, then fair enough, but proclaiming it to be dumb just because you say so isn't right...

and there are tons more heroes who ridiculously attained their current powers than iceman: batman, the fantastic four, the list goes on...

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
"He also TOLD Emma he'd been practicing. Remember, he went to her for help, she chided him because he didn't learn anything despite having a basic guidebook implanted in his head consisting of his memories of her. She said that the only reason why he's not doing that stuff is because he doesn't WANT to. Iceman responded by saying that she's wrong, he's been practicing..."

Here's how it is: If you're gonna give someone like Ice-Man, powers like he has now, I wanna see specific reasons, methods and actions as to how they got that way. I don't buy him "telling" Emma, or assuming what happens off panel. If you're gonna make such a drastic and desperate maneuver, I wanna know EXACTLY why. Don't assume I'm just gonna suck it up and agree.


But it's not that drastic a change. You make it sound as though Iceman has the ability to alter reality. Read Iceman lately? He's still getting beaten up by Juggernaut. He's a lot more powerful than the Snowboy he was, but so are all the X-men. There was nothing drastic or sudden about it. Nothing.



So you're calling me a sucker because Iceman says he's been training, then demonstrates what he's been training? That's nonsense. I don't NEED to see every bit of training he does. He's not a god now, over the last ten years he's added a few new techniques - I don't need to know the specifics. Just like when Reed said, "Invisible Girl, you can only turn yourself invisible, but try concentrating and turning someone else invisible" and she said, "ok Reed" and suddenly she did it...did you find that bogus? I find that more hokey than Iceman taking 15 years to learn seven new techniques and 20 years to learn another four.



And that's where we disagree - I don't see it as being that drastic a change. And thus I don't need a issue upon issue devoted to Iceman meditating in the danger room until he gets something. It has nothing to do with me "accepting things". It has everything to do with "get the damn story moving".



I couldn't possibly disagree more. YOU accept far too much in comics. I look beyond comics to the science behind it. I ask why - I ask how, and I look at the possibilities beyond that. You should know that. Iceman can freeze blood because it makes sense within the context of his powers. I accept it because it makes sense. I DON'T accept Torch flying in space with his powers activated because fire CANNOT exist without a supply of oxygen. Turns out, that wasn't even what happened. I choose to accept or not accept based upon how much sense it makes. Torch existing in space flamed on doesn't make sense. I don't acept it. Iceman training for 20 years to learn four techniques does make sense. I do accept it.

You just say, "Well, there's no evidence of Storm doing that before, so...", and if there IS evidence to support it, then you just dismiss it as bad writing. You can't have your cake and eat it too. We support our positions by referencing comics. You do it to support your position, and then when someone references comics for a position you don't agree with you just call it bad writing and say it doesn't count. Nonsense.



Because people train for different things. Cyclops trains to maintain his shape and his marksmanship. Stands to reason Bobby, when he trains, would be to improve his control and expand his powers. I'd expect nothing else. What, you think when he trains everyday, it's just to build more ice bridges and to throw snow? Ridiculous...



I agree. But that's not what happened. He didn't just DO them. It's taken years for him to get to this point. I don't know how to make that any clearer.

"marvel has spent more developing iceman than half the xmen, if that isnt enough for you, then fair enough, but proclaiming it to be dumb just because you say so isn't right..."

Developing? "He's shit in X-Men let's try him in X-Factor. Oh no he's shit there so we'll move him to X-Force. Hmmm this isn't working". There was no development, naturally.

"and there are tons more heroes who ridiculously attained their current powers than iceman: batman, the fantastic four, the list goes on..."

Sue was having fits of power for a long long time, naturally. She then adapted a power she already had. She didn't gain a new one. It was explained why, shown. Hence why we all know so much about why it happened.

This is all off topic. Your argument was "Evolution/Potential". None of which apply here.

-AC

last post

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Sue was having fits of power for a long long time, naturally. She then adapted a power she already had. She didn't gain a new one.

That's exactly how I'd describe Bobby. He got powered up by Loki, had fits of power and couldn't control it. He then adapted a power he already had. He didn't gain a new one.

And it took him longer to do so than it did Sue.

did you honestly misunderstand me? i never said both were alike... i never meant that anyway...

i was talking about the cosmic rays...

if you'd read the other posts (and i'm sure you did) you'd see how he's developed... his powers have been gradually growing for years...

"But it's not that drastic a change. You make it sound as though Iceman has the ability to alter reality. Read Iceman lately? He's still getting beaten up by Juggernaut. He's a lot more powerful than the Snowboy he was, but so are all the X-men. There was nothing drastic or sudden about it. Nothing."

Yes, yes there was. The gap between him not having those powers and having them was way too small. The way he gained them was being told he had the potential and immediately getting there. BS.

"So you're calling me a sucker because Iceman says he's been training, then demonstrates what he's been training? That's nonsense. I don't NEED to see every bit of training he does. He's not a god now, over the last ten years he's added a few new techniques - I don't need to know the specifics. "

Is your name "I"? Did I call you a sucker? Nope. Stop assuming. You don't need or you don't care really? Over the last TEN YEARS he's added a few new techniques.....making slides and simple ice manipulation. Then he had some rush of training that we never saw happen and gained these new powers.

"Just like when Reed said, "Invisible Girl, you can only turn yourself invisible, but try concentrating and turning someone else invisible" and she said, "ok Reed" and suddenly she did it...did you find that bogus? I find that more hokey than Iceman taking 15 years to learn seven new techniques and 20 years to learn another four."

I've commented on Sue above. Secondly, that last line proves your assumption level. WHERE IS ALL THIS TRAINING? Oops, nowhere to be seen. If you're gonna make such a large change in such a short space for such a lame reason, I wanna see what he did to get there. They couldn't come up with a believeable reason so they just threw it out and you caught it.

"And thus I don't need a issue upon issue devoted to Iceman meditating in the danger room until he gets something. It has nothing to do with me "accepting things". It has everything to do with "get the damn story moving"."

Everything to do with "We really need to stop being shit at any cost".

"I couldn't possibly disagree more. YOU accept far too much in comics. I look beyond comics to the science behind it. I ask why - I ask how"

Hahahaha. Funniest denial ever. Have I not been asking how and why for the past two pages where as you've been saying more or less "He just did, be reasonable"? Hahahhaha.

" Iceman training for 20 years to learn four techniques does make sense. I do accept it."

You never saw it happen. What happened to questioning why or how?

"You can't have your cake and eat it too. We support our positions by referencing comics. You do it to support your position, and then when someone references comics for a position you don't agree with you just call it bad writing and say it doesn't count. Nonsense."

See what you tried there, nice but didn't quite work. If you look back over my posts on this board you'll notice I'm strict when it comes to calling things bad writing. Is Torch being put out by an extinguisher bad writing? Yes. Am I saying Ice-Man's powers are bad writing? No. Am I saying how he got them is absolutely ridiculous? Yes.

"Stands to reason Bobby, when he trains, would be to improve his control and expand his powers. I'd expect nothing else. What, you think when he trains everyday, it's just to build more ice bridges and to throw snow? Ridiculous..."

Not really. When I go to martial arts classes I do certain things that I do every week, because that's part of training. You dodge points so badly. If we had seen what he did to get there or how hard he trained, fair enough. I am not gonna accept it off the back of "I've been training mates". "Yeah? How? What with? How'd you be able to do that?" "Emma said I could"...."Yeah? So? Wasn't my question was it?"

-AC

"his powers have been gradually growing for years..."

They haven't. Not unaided.

-AC

This all comes down to whether or not you need to be shown Iceman actually, physically training. You say you need it, the fact that he says he's been training hard isn't enough. I say I don't, the fact that he says he's been training hard is enough.

I don't WANT to see him training. There are storylines and plots to advance. I have no problem at all knowing that X-men train and get better in the background, inbetween issues. And I have no problem at all knowing that when they say they've been practicing techniques and then they do it....it's because they've practiced it.

I don't need to see you practicing in a dojo for years. If you come back three years later and roundhouse kick me into a wall and you say you did it because you've been practicing it - hell, I guess you did.

The Emma storyline was in 1995. During that time, he only learned:

Controlling temperatures in the bodies of others
Changing/Constituting his body mass

Several years later, Prosh taught him:

Turning into water vapor
Traveling as water vapor

I say that's not sudden. And that's not a stretch.

You say otherwise.

I don't know how much more there is to it.

"This all comes down to whether or not you need to be shown Iceman actually, physically training. You say you need it, the fact that he says he's been training hard isn't enough. I say I don't, the fact that he says he's been training hard is enough. "

No no no. Stop adding two and two if you can't get four. You were told he was training. You were told that he went to train after being told he had this amazing potential by Emma. It's BS that he immediately went and accessed that potential.

"I don't need to see you practicing in a dojo for years. If you come back three years later and roundhouse kick me into a wall and you say you did it because you've been practicing it - hell, I guess you did."

Point is, if you said to me "AC you have the potential to be Bruce Lee". I couldn't automatically access that, just because I know it's there. Which is what Ice-Man did.

"The Emma storyline was in 1995. During that time, he only learned: Controlling temperatures in the bodies of others
Changing/Constituting his body mass Several years later, Prosh taught him: Turning into water vapo Traveling as water vapor I say that's not sudden. And that's not a stretch. You say otherwise. I don't know how much more there is to it"

I never saw any of this. Being taught something and being told you have potential that is instantly accessible are two different things.

-AC

But it wasn't instantly accessible. In UXM 311, Emma takes over his body. After the whole Phalanx storyline, Iceman only learned one trick from that - the temperature in someone's body changing, which he used on Emma. He learned the body mass changing in UXM 319 - after he said he'd been practicing it.

He learned changing his perceptions to see temperatures during the Onslaught saga, again years later, when Onslaught blocked out visual and telepathic perception of his approach.

The Prosh part of it was several years separate from that.

Again, nothing "instantly accessible" about any of this. He was told about his potential by Rasputin, he learns a couple of tricks. He's told about his potential by Emma. He learns a couple more tricks. He's told about his potential by Prosh. He learns a couple more tricks. He's STILL not at his potential.

So you keep clinging to the point, but it's simply NOT been "instantly accessible", and now I'm including issue numbers too. Look them up.

Why are you telling me to look stuff up? Do you actually go into debates with the assumption that you are the only one who knows something?

I don't judge without knowing. I've read those. I'm not clinging to anything either.

Fact is, it happened like this: Ice-Man returned with powers. The reason you were given is that he just wasn't accessing the potential, but it was there. Coincidentally as soon as Emma showed him and Prosh told him, he got it. Not rocket science.

-AC

It wasn't as soon as Emma showed him, he got it. Emma was inside his head. She basically left a "how to" inside his head. He practiced, he followed it, he got SOME of it. It was over the span of almost 12 issues. That's hardly "as soon as Emma told him, he got it".

Proves my point.

Write me a "How to" on Bruce Lee martial arts. Lets see if I can get there in a couple of months.

-AC

Doesn't prove your point. I write you a how to on Bruce Lee martial arts. In a couple of months, with practice, you learn how to do a kick.

Same thing - Iceman didn't learn everything Emma did just from having that How To book. He learned how to control the temperature of others after many months of practice. There was still a lot more he didn't (and still hasn't) learned from that How To book...

"Doesn't prove your point. I write you a how to on Bruce Lee martial arts. In a couple of months, with practice, you learn how to do a kick. "

Exactly. I don't learn how to beat down 5 men just coz I might be able to with training.

"Same thing - Iceman didn't learn everything Emma did just from having that How To book. He learned how to control the temperature of others after many months of practice. There was still a lot more he didn't (and still hasn't) learned from that How To book..."

Yes, "months". I don't see how you don't see what I'm saying.

-AC

There's a difference. Learning to kick well enough to knock out five guys requires both mental and physical ability. Learning how to lower someone else's temperature just requires mental ability. Just learning how to do it is inherently effective, unlike martial arts.

Yes..."months". I don't see how you don't see what I'm saying.

i don't know if I agree with anyone but it seems that ice man wouldn't be as powerful as he is today if it wasn't for everyone helping him. no one has ever really helped storm and she is a big asset to the x-men- if she had like a dozen people train her than she'd be a whole lot more powerful also.

iceman's organic ice control psionically maniupulates the moisture and he can freeze you inside out, however storm can take away all the moisture. . . i think it's a stalemate

imo storm wins this- lightning is over 5,ooo degrees, with a lot of hits from that and imo he might be out

Originally posted by Quick Freeze
iceman's organic ice control psionically maniupulates the moisture and he can freeze you inside out, however storm can take away all the moisture. . . i think it's a stalemate

She can't take away the moisture that inside her.

but she is quicker than that and she has lead one of his teams before so she will know what he can do

Knowing what someone will do and defending against it are two different things. How can she defend against her brain freezing? Or uncontrollable frostbite?

because doing that would possibly kill her and the x-men dn't kill

It wouldn't kill her. He did it to Emma and she couldn't think, couldn't use her telepathy. You know that feeling you get when you drink one of those slurpees really fast? Multiply that by 1000...see if you can still use your mutant powers. You basically just pass out from hyperthermia.

storm can also use hypothermia but that wouldn't do anything. if a bomb smaller than an arrow head can blow up iceman than storm can do it with a lightning bolt. she can take all the moisture away and make it really hot so it would be hard to reform

But remember, Storm can't do it instantly. It takes time for her to draw away moisture. Iceman, on the other hand, can freeze things instantly. Iceman can put her on ice way before she takes away enough moisture to really do anything. Besides, Iceman himself is made out of moisture and Storm has moisture in her body. He can draw moisture from either of those places - especially her body. He can do it faster than she can too, because his control is molecular - her's is via nature.

k now i get it. but all storm needs is a thought, and she always uses lightning in a fight. ice doesn't go into a fight and then automatically freezes you inside out. lightning is a lot hotter than 5,ooo degrees! if a bomb smaller than an arrow head can easily blow him up than so can her lightning. she can just keep hitting his pieces until he can't reform

Except he doesn't really need his body to use his mutant power. In the time it's taking for her to run around blowing up pieces of ice, he's already knocked her out from brain freeze. That's one.

The second thing is that after his Prosh experience, he learned how to travel as water vapor. All lightning would do is convert him to water vapor, which just makes him untouchable. If she went any further than that (such as evaporating the water vapor), she'd kill him, which is against the X-men rules.

Stormfront will never admit Storm can lose. 99% of the time.

-AC

k AC do you even know me?? no!! so stop telling people that my opinions don't count cause i always say my favorite will win, cause i don't. when she is against someone she definitley can't beat like superman then i'll say so, if I believe she has a chance then i'll say so.

Originally posted by stormfront13
k AC do you even know me?? no!! so stop telling people that my opinions don't count cause i always say my favorite will win, cause i don't. when she is against someone she definitley can't beat like superman then i'll say so, if I believe she has a chance then i'll say so.

you have said storm could beat: flash, wonder woman and iron man...

...and Doom.

Probably thinks she can beat Surfer.

-AC

when iceman turns into his ice form storm would hit him with a lightning bolt destroying him

I do think that Storm should win. Anyone who's been keeping up for the past little bit, they know that.
But sadly, she can't. Bobby knows her and her powers to the fullest. And vise-versa. So bobby would zap the air of all of it's moisture. No moisture, no lightning. Bobby turns into ultra-ice...gigantic...spiky... and bonks her... sorry y'all. We lost.

"bobby would zap the air of all of it's moisture"

Icemans power is dependent on moisture he doesnt control the moisture thats far more storms area of expertise. If there wasnt enough ambient moisture in the air then as avid x men fans know his powers are severely limited. It is very much in storms power to dramatically reduce the ambient moisture in the air. She could then shatter him and disperse the fragments with wind. It would be interesting to see how easily and quickly Iceman could reform after that. Storm wins this

Originally posted by mikalv1224
when iceman turns into his ice form storm would hit him with a lightning bolt destroying him

wont work...

Originally posted by Lord-of-Dreams
I do think that Storm should win. Anyone who's been keeping up for the past little bit, they know that.
But sadly, she can't. Bobby knows her and her powers to the fullest. And vise-versa. So bobby would zap the air of all of it's moisture. No moisture, no lightning. Bobby turns into ultra-ice...gigantic...spiky... and bonks her... sorry y'all. We lost.

i agree in part...

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
"bobby would zap the air of all of it's moisture"

Icemans power is dependent on moisture he doesnt control the moisture thats far more storms area of expertise. If there wasnt enough ambient moisture in the air then as avid x men fans know his powers are severely limited. It is very much in storms power to dramatically reduce the ambient moisture in the air. She could then shatter him and disperse the fragments with wind. It would be interesting to see how easily and quickly Iceman could reform after that. Storm wins this

that takes time to do, iceman could take her down before then...

omg AC let it go!! you don't even know me and you don't know what i think!! get of my back and stop actin like a pathetic 2nd grader and get a life. if all you have time to do is tell people in evry post that i love storm then you are even more pathetic that i thought.

wow, someone reallllly hates iceman. TONS of heroes receive power ups, some of them quite ridiculous, but we gotta bag on iceman, huh?

He's had one of the most reasonable power-progressions in comics. Unreasonable would be Storm suddenyl creating a "Jovian pressure field" to contain a bomb, or Bishop suddenly having GPS powers. Claremont is especially fond of random powers up like that.

well that feat for storm isn't that unreasonable, air and wind can affect pressure, so mabe he's just fine-tuning her abilities

Originally posted by stormfront13
well that feat for storm isn't that unreasonable, air and wind can affect pressure, so mabe he's just fine-tuning her abilities
what I dont get is how that affects the bomb. If you blow a nuke on Jupiter, nothing happens? Somehow I doubt that....

or Sage- suddenly in X-treme X-men 46 she can shapeshift and "cure" power-loss.

um.... i don't much get it.