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Which team comes out the victor in this fight. There is no prep time in this fight so lets say that they get transported into one or the others universe and fight not knowing anything about eachother.

Team one: The Fantastic Four

Team two: JLA (Firestorm, GL(Hal), Flash and Martian Manhunter.

I really dont know who would win right now. Lets just see how this debate goes.

flash can hit sue faster than she can think, then the others mop up the rest...

jla wins...

That sounds kinda easy victory. The FF will put up a better fight than that I hope.

well either mm or flash can take sue out very quickly...

hal can take torch and thing on his own imo...

JLA. Pretty easily. FF's got nothing for them but Sue. Once Sue goes down...that's it.

Odd how Galactus should technically...given all those POWERS, have had something to stop them as well. Coulda probably created Flash I'm thinking.

The FF can't beat Galactus straight up. MAYBE if he's starving and about to die. Otherwise, there's no way. None.

What is 'straight up'. He had a purpose, they stopped it one way or another, ie they got the job done.

No biggie.

Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
What is 'straight up'. He had a purpose, they stopped it one way or another, ie they got the job done.

No biggie.
I dont think the Ultimate Nullifier will affect the JLA.

They can beat Galactus. Can you deny that fact? No.

What makes you think they couldn't beat the JLA then?

-AC

Me either.

Let's continue shall we.

Although it has been said to be able to obliterate anything. So I don't know who to believe.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
They can beat Galactus. Can you deny that fact? No.

What makes you think they couldn't beat the JLA then?

-AC

simple, this is a straight fight...

given each members abilities the jla are superior...

Well if Reed carries that in his back pocket then they win

Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
What is 'straight up'. He had a purpose, they stopped it one way or another, ie they got the job done.

No biggie.

ok, but that doesn't mean they can physically defeat Galactus. Saying that the FF can foil his plans as evidence that they could physically defeat the JLA is meaningless. Unless the thread is: "Can the FF ruin the JLA's Thankgiving feast?" in which case I might answer yes...

"simple, this is a straight fight...given each members abilities the jla are superior..."

Haha. Why is it?

Why do you have the right to rule out something the F4 could use to win? Why are you assuming both teams show up with sleeves rolled to their elbows, ready to fist fight?

If the F4 are fighting the JLA, they'll wanna win. They'll find a way to do so.

"ok, but that doesn't mean they can physically defeat Galactus. Saying that the FF can foil his plans as evidence that they could physically defeat the JLA is meaningless. Unless the thread is: "Can the FF ruin the JLA's Thankgiving feast?" in which case I might answer yes..."

Yeah but if they can find a way to beat a bordeline omnipotent, they can beat a bunch of heroes.

-AC

Originally posted by demigawd
ok, but that doesn't mean they can physically defeat Galactus.

No-one suggested that it was. Do go on.


Originally posted by demigawd
Saying that the FF can foil his plans as evidence that they could physically defeat the JLA is meaningless.

Not quite, I see the point you are proving, although it was of your own creation. So I'll ignore it.

Originally posted by demigawd
Unless the thread is: "Can the FF ruin the JLA's Thankgiving feast?" in which case I might answer yes...

Confer 'meaningless' comment.

But Time is something they dont have.

Well, the last time they beat Galactus, they had Quasar, Johnny as a Herald, who used his cosmic awareness to come up with a plan to suck away G's power.

The time before that, they had several cosmic beings and G was crazy.

The time before that, they had several members of the Avengers with them.

So unless you're saying the FF get all of that in their fight, I say it's not happening.

But...I guess it's worth asking -- any stips? Prep time? Battlefield? Or are we going with default rules?

Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
No-one suggested that it was. Do go on.


If by "no-one" you mean "you", then yeah I agree.

Your comment, sir:

"Odd how Galactus should technically...given all those POWERS, have had something to stop them as well. Coulda probably created Flash I'm thinking."

Anything else you'd like to retract?

Why does every FF thread turn into "prep time" threads? Sure Reed is smart but is he smarter than MM? Lets stick with stated rules.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Haha. Why is it?

Why do you have the right to rule out something the F4 could use to win? Why are you assuming both teams show up with sleeves rolled to their elbows, ready to fist fight?

-AC

i didn't rule out anything... the thread starter was not specific about prep time, location or situation...

No.

It means Galactus is more powerful than JLA, and they stopped him, physical or not. Not being the case.

Try again.

Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
No.

It means Galactus is more powerful than JLA, and they stopped him, physical or not. Not being the case.

Try again.

i understood what he meant...

i'm wieghing up each persons abilities, it was already stated how they beat him previously...

juggernaut 74 said no prep time, so reed is a non element, unless he pulls something he made earlier out of his ass...

four v four, no prep, jla win, unless both mm and flash hesitate...

We forgetting that MM hates fire?

He isn't called the Human Torch coz he's a whizz with a Maglite.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
We forgetting that MM hates fire?

He isn't called the Human Torch coz he's a whizz with a Maglite.

-AC
Ahhhh the difference maker.

Originally posted by pr1983
i understood what he meant...

i'm wieghing up each persons abilities, it was already stated how they beat him previously...

so reed is a non element

Reed is a massive element in a battle, he's hardly a random guy out there.

Regardless of how they beat him, point is they formulated a way to do it. Outside elements fair enough, but that's Galactus, not four JLA members. Any victory against Galactus is going on the cv, let's be honest.

All it takes is thinking before posting.

-AC

Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
Reed is a massive element in a battle, he's hardly a random guy out there.

Regardless of how they beat him, point is they formulated a way to do it. Outside elements fair enough, but that's Galactus, not four JLA members. Any victory against Galactus is going on the cv, let's be honest.

i never said it didn't, they are all impressive, but there were circumstances that lead to those victories... it has to be taken into context, if the ff and galactus were dropped in the middle of a field (albeit a very large one), who'd win? i'd say galactus...

this is no more than a four v four... no prep...

reed can't do much without prep, he is a great leader but i can't see him hurting mm, flash or hal... he is incredibly durable but that won't count for much in a battle with one of dc's best telepath's...

torch and thing? seriously? neither of them can do shit to a green lantern, especially hal...

alpha, are you talking to me?

Originally posted by pr1983
it has to be taken into context, if the ff and galactus were dropped in the middle of a field (albeit a very large one), who'd win? i'd say galactus...


Same here.

By putting it in context- which I did- you can't then take it OUT of context to prove the untruth of it.

I don't doubt he'd beat them in a straight fight. That wasn't the point I was/am making.

JLA wins. The Flash's speed is WAY too much for them. Not to mention he can LEND his speed to his JLA teammates. MM and Superman going at lightspeed and the battle is over before an electron cycles around an atom.

Then it's settled.

No prep time. No time for ultimate nullifiers, no time to bring in Quasar, or Silver Surfer, or Herald Johnny or the Avengers.

FF get creamed in grand style.

To be honest any fight involving prep time isnt really a fight its more of a chess match. That is why I said no prep time. In a fight to the finish using their powers and nothing more the JLA should win. Although if it were prep time on both sides I still go with JLA now cause I think MM is smarter than Reed.

Does Flash win all of his fights in this manner?

Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
Does Flash win all of his fights in this manner?

He used it during the Adam Strange storyline.

Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
Does Flash win all of his fights in this manner?
It dont matter he is not fighting alone. He can do more than just run fast you know.

Originally posted by Victor Von Doom

I don't doubt he'd beat them in a straight fight. That wasn't the point I was/am making.

Then you have no point.

JLA in a physical fight would wreck the FF.

Next!

Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
Same here.

By putting it in context- which I did- you can't then take it OUT of context to prove the untruth of it.

I don't doubt he'd beat them in a straight fight. That wasn't the point I was/am making.

i know, i don't underestimate the fantastic four at all, trust me. They have accomplished some amazing feats over the years, but one of their most potent weapons has always been reed's brain... in this fight it doesn't really have much of a place though... thats the way i see it...

is the question who would win in a fight or who is more powerful...honestly, look at the JLA, most characters, well the main starters, are maxed out in power if ur talking about Hal or Superman or MM...those guys r more "powerful" on the surface than Reed Richards...he's simply not usually that powerful. However, if he wants to be he could be very "powerful"...as the Dark Raider, Richards could have probably taken four top JLA characters by himself. I think some people r trying to say JLA would win because they r more powerful on the surface. I totally agree. But although lots of the FF characters are easily underestimated the first time around, when they r pushed they can come out on top against people who should beat them on paper...like the Thing fighting the Destroyer or Occulus...or Torch beating Graviton...or IW destroying Exitar...Just like any super powerful memeber of the JLA, they should have lost or been killed by those guys. Just look at JLA's enemies, they r often given a hard time by the most weak and generic villains...But the FF can beat Abraxis or Galactus but its impossible for them to give 4 members of the JLA a fight?

as usual...I go with the FF.

Weak enemies? Mageddon, Imperiux, Heaven's Host, Darkseid, Neron. The JLA has plenty of tough foes.

This isn't a fight. The only person who can truly give the JLA a problem is Sue Storm. The rest are dust.

MM isnt even close to as smart as Richards.

Originally posted by Wynndar
MM isnt even close to as smart as Richards.
Obviously in a fanboys world he is not.

The point is this:

"F4 lose without this, without that"

Why are you bringing this up? Thread title: FF Vs JLA. Right?

They would find a way to win, it's well within their ability. Stop limiting their ways to suit your own needs.

-AC

Originally posted by Wynndar
MM isnt even close to as smart as Richards.


Smart? How the hell is intelligence going to help him against a Class 100 character pummeling him at lightspeed?

Originally posted by demigawd
Then you have no point.

JLA in a physical fight would wreck the FF.

Next!

Again, nice try. Well, not really, I'd have gotten bored by now.

They're not fighting Galactus are they.

You're welcome to have another go.

Not being able to beat Galactus= not being able to beat JLA.

Not quite an equal equation is it.

Originally posted by juggernaut74
Obviously in a fanboys world he is not.

reed is arguably the smartest man in marvel, mm is close but not quite there imo...



we didn't make the rules, juggernaut74 did, by his rules, jla win...

"Smart? How the hell is intelligence going to help him against a Class 100 character pummeling him at lightspeed?"

The man shits himself when he's near fire. Not a wise choice going up against a man who could melt the metal off Colossus. Think, it helps.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
"Smart? How the hell is intelligence going to help him against a Class 100 character pummeling him at lightspeed?"

The man shits himself when he's near fire. Not a wise choice going up against a man who could melt the metal off Colossus. Think, it helps.

-AC

MM is no longer vulnerable to fire.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
"Smart? How the hell is intelligence going to help him against a Class 100 character pummeling him at lightspeed?"

The man shits himself when he's near fire. Not a wise choice going up against a man who could melt the metal off Colossus. Think, it helps.

-AC Since when can Reed melt Colossus. You said you thought before you posted. Not this time. If you were paying attention you would know that this came about Reed being smarter than MM.

Not sure that's the point being made there.

Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
They're not fighting Galactus are they.


Grand observation. And I agree!



Just as being able to foil Galactus' plans <> Being able to beat the JLA


So, where was I? Ah yes...

MM alone beats the FF. Sue included. The rest watch in amusement.

I sure hope there are more interesting fights on the board....

"Since when can Reed melt Colossus. You said you thought before you posted. Not this time. If you were paying attention you would know that this came about Reed being smarter than MM."

Since when was Reed the Human Torch.

Shh. No, shh.

-AC

JLA.

"
MM alone beats the FF. Sue included. The rest watch in amusement.

I sure hope there are more interesting fights on the board...."

i agree MM , or superman can both beat Fantastic 4 .

Why do people do that?

"JLA".

Yeah? Why?

-AC

Originally posted by demigawd

Just as being able to foil Galactus' plans <> Being able to beat the JLA


No, it doesn't. It's character history. Quit getting desperate, you aren't going to score the point.

Originally posted by demigawd
So, where was I? Ah yes...

'Comedy' effect? Wasnt a great effect.


Originally posted by demigawd

MM alone beats the FF. Sue included. The rest watch in amusement.


Perhaps you'd like to script it.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
"Since when can Reed melt Colossus. You said you thought before you posted. Not this time. If you were paying attention you would know that this came about Reed being smarter than MM."

Since when was Reed the Human Torch.

Shh. No, shh.

-AC Obviously your not paying attention.

Originally posted by demigawd
MM alone beats the FF. Sue included. The rest watch in amusement.



HAHAHAHA Thats about as likely as Wolverine beating the entire JLA.

of all the opponents the FF have beaten MM doesnt stand a chance...honestly not even the entire JLA is impressive in terms of power when compared FF foes.

Seeing as I was responding to a comment about MM of my own free will, in no implied or literal connection to Reed/MM argument, I think you look before you leaped my old friend.

You assumed I was getting involved. Draco said "What's Reed gonna do against MM?" I said "What's MM gonna do against a man who can melt Colossus?". You made the connection, the one that wasn't there.

Next.

-AC

Originally posted by Wynndar
HAHAHAHA Thats about as likely as Wolverine beating the entire JLA.

of all the opponents the FF have beaten MM doesnt stand a chance...honestly not even the entire JLA is impressive in terms of power when compared FF foes.

Your argument doesn't make sense. JLA's enemies are more powerful than FF4 enemies. Can you honestly come up with any battle scenario where the FF4 could win this fight? The "their enemies are stronger than their enemies." is completely null and void.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Seeing as I was responding to a comment about MM of my own free will, in no implied or literal connection to Reed/MM argument, I think you look before you leaped my old friend.

You assumed I was getting involved. Draco said "What's Reed gonna do against MM?" I said "What's MM gonna do against a man who can melt Colossus?". You made the connection, the one that wasn't there.

Next.

-AC Nice try. But the topic was Reed and MM.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Why do people do that?

"JLA".

Yeah? Why?

-AC Because it's fact.

It's called f*ckin with their minds. MM can do it with ease.

Lets stop talking about enemies and start talking about FF Vs JLA.

"Can you honestly come up with any battle scenario where the FF4 could win this fight?"

Before the F4 beat Galactus, would you have said they have a chance? No. They did because they make the seemingly impossible, possible. Doesn't have to be physical.

They can do the same against the JLA.

-AC

The FF4 beat Galactus. So what?

The JLA beat GOD. And DEATH. (JLA : Heaven's Ladder)

i wasnt refering to who had tougher enemies...and i havent read enough JLA to say they face equally powerful enemies cuz i havent seen them take much tougher charcters than darksied or braniac...But if the FF can beat Abraxis then they can beat the puny MM.

But once again MM is not alone in this fight.

Originally posted by Wynndar
i wasnt refering to who had tougher enemies...and i havent read enough JLA to say they face equally powerful enemies cuz i havent seen them take much tougher charcters than darksied or braniac...But if the FF can beat Abraxis then they can beat the puny MM.

Like you said, you haven't read any JLA comics (obviously for a very long time). The JLA have met and bested foes far more powerful than Abraxis.

Originally posted by Draco69
The FF4 beat Galactus. So what?

The JLA beat GOD. And DEATH. (JLA : Heaven's Ladder)

The JLA got PUMMELLED by DOOMSDAY. (Superman : the one where Doomsday destroys JLA)

well someone said he could beat the FF on his own...

Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
The JLA got PUMMELLED by DOOMSDAY. (Superman : the one where Doomsday destroys JLA)

The JLA was a MUCH weaker team at that time. They had Gold Booster on their team for god's sake!

And the FF got beat by Black Panther if my memory serves me correctly.

Draco, stop chickening out.

"The FF4 beat Galactus. So what? The JLA beat GOD. And DEATH. (JLA : Heaven's Ladder)"

AND WHAT? My point was, the F4 specialise in finding ways to beat the impossible, history proves such. They could do the same with the JLA.

-AC

Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
No, it doesn't. It's character history. Quit getting desperate, you aren't going to score the point.


You acknowledge that fighting G is irrelevant for this battle, after bringing him up in the first place. Point's been scored. Just wrapping up.



It would be an awfully short comic.

As soon as the fight starts, 2 of the 4 members get knocked out. Then MM wipes the other 2's mind. How the hell do the F4 win from that?

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Draco, stop chickening out.

"The FF4 beat Galactus. So what? The JLA beat GOD. And DEATH. (JLA : Heaven's Ladder)"

AND WHAT? My point was, the F4 specialise in finding ways to beat the impossible, history proves such. They could do the same with the JLA.

-AC

The FF4 rely on allies and Reed's preptime to win against such overwhelming odds. Those factors are nondefunct in this battle. As I said before, Flash lends his speed to his teammates, and the FF4 are pummelled relentlessly by lightspeed Class 100 characters and a man with the most powerful weapon in the universe. Reed cannot come up with anything if he can't think.

Originally posted by demigawd
You acknowledge that fighting G is irrelevant for this battle, after bringing him up in the first place. Point's been scored. Just wrapping up.


Again. It's not irrelevant, it's character history. You see? See how that all works? Things they've done? Compared to what they have to do now?

Why would you even be trying to score points? Still sore about something?

Nothing to be sore about, right? Gotcha champ.

"You acknowledge that fighting G is irrelevant for this battle, after bringing him up in the first place. Point's been scored. Just wrapping up."

He brought him up to show that they've beat someone capable of creating the Justice League.

Stop steering off point. Forget about G if you know he's irrelevant.

The point is, the F4 could find a way to beat the F4, is what I believe. Given their history.

-AC

Reed would easily nullify MM's powers...unlike DC...the Marvel universe has an excess of telepaths...its nothing special to them.

even if he could he would need days if not weeks of prep time to come up with a plan to take out these four JLA members.

Originally posted by Draco69
The JLA was a MUCH weaker team at that time. They had Gold Booster on their team for god's sake!

Tis true. Just thought it humourous.

Originally posted by Wynndar
Reed would easily nullify MM's powers...unlike DC...the Marvel universe has an excess of telepaths...its nothing special to them.


With what? The Flash takes Mr. F out before he can think.

Originally posted by Wynndar
HAHAHAHA Thats about as likely as Wolverine beating the entire JLA.


Not really. Wolverine can't go intangible. He can't shut down the minds of the entire team while intangible, either.

MM just stands there, intangible. Johnny fires at him, goes through. Thing swings at him, goes through, Reed...uh...stretches at him, goes through. Sue puts up a shield, not sure what to do.

MM says "goodnight" and all four of them go to sleep.

It's really that simple.



I'll give you odds that MM can single-handedly beat most of the FF's foes.

"Because it's fact."

If I can disagree it's not. Check yo 'delf.

"With what? The Flash takes Mr. F out before he can think."

Does he? When?

-AC

hmm...well since the Flash always fights like that in a battle...Reed sees Flash and the JLA coming...he has a television that shows the future by the way...Puts on his Dark Raider outfit and continues to assassinate each memebr of the JLa before they even join the team.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
"Because it's fact."

If I can disagree it's not. Check yo 'delf.

"With what? The Flash takes Mr. F out before he can think."

Does he? When?

-AC

At the beginning at the battle. Or rather .000000001 seconds after the battle begins to be more accurate.

Originally posted by demigawd
Not really. Wolverine can't go intangible. He can't shut down the minds of the entire team while intangible, either.

MM just stands there, intangible. Johnny fires at him, goes through. Thing swings at him, goes through, Reed...uh...stretches at him, goes through. Sue puts up a shield, not sure what to do.

MM says "goodnight" and all four of them go to sleep.

It's really that simple.



I'll give you odds that MM can single-handedly beat most of the FF's foes.
Ecellent job on that. Lets see what they have to say to that.

Originally posted by Wynndar
hmm...well since the Flash always fights like that in a battle...Reed sees Flash and the JLA coming...he has a television that shows the future by the way...Puts on his Dark Raider outfit and continues to assassinate each memebr of the JLa before they even join the team.


See the Flash coming? How can Reed Richard possibly "see" a man traveling at near-lightspeed?

Originally posted by demigawd
Not really. Wolverine can't go intangible. He can't shut down the minds of the entire team while intangible, either.

MM just stands there, intangible. Johnny fires at him, goes through. Thing swings at him, goes through, Reed...uh...stretches at him, goes through. Sue puts up a shield, not sure what to do.

MM says "goodnight" and all four of them go to sleep.

It's really that simple.



I'll give you odds that MM can single-handedly beat most of the FF's foes.

Wow an intangible telepath..those DC guys r sooo creative...yea the FF have never been able to take an intangible or a telepth.

Originally posted by Wynndar
Wow an intangible telepath..those DC guys r sooo creative...yea the FF have never been able to take an intangible or a telepth.

You lack facts. You haven't given any arguments as to HOW the FF4 can defeat the JLA.



As if a "four-elemental" team is any more creative.

Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
Why would you even be trying to score points? Still sore about something?

Nothing to be sore about, right? Gotcha champ.


???

Not sure what you're trying to imply, but ok.

So it stands as this. The reasoning provided that the FF would win seems to consist of, "They're the FF - they're good at beating overwhelming odds. They'll figure something out".

The reasoning provided that the JLA would win seems to consist of, "Flash knocks them out before they can think" "MM knocks them out with one telepathic attack" "GL pounds them with the most powerful weapon in the universe".

Yeah. Seems about even.

Originally posted by Wynndar
hmm...well since the Flash always fights like that in a battle...Reed sees Flash and the JLA coming...he has a television that shows the future by the way...Puts on his Dark Raider outfit and continues to assassinate each memebr of the JLa before they even join the team. Read the first post again: "There is no prep time in this fight so lets say that they get transported into one or the others universe and fight not knowing anything about eachother." It says they fight, so Flash would knock out Sue and Johnny before they knew what happened. Then MM mind wipes the other two.

Originally posted by Draco69
See the Flash coming? How can Reed Richard possibly "see" a man traveling at near-lightspeed?

sorry...i see that went right over ur head...Richards can "see" the future via his technology...sometimes the Thing just relaxes in the Baxter Building watching a "TV" that shows the future...and as the Dark Raider, Richards would slaughter every member of the JLA in the most cold and efficient method possible.

"At the beginning at the battle. Or rather .000000001 seconds after the battle begins to be more accurate."

Maybe when it happens we can claim fact.

You can't claim facts where there are none, genius.

"You lack facts. You haven't given any arguments as to HOW the FF4 can defeat the JLA. "

If you mean we haven't done this:

"Flash attack, Reed moves etc" then no, we haven't. Because we're above making up stories that haven't happened to back ourselves up. We're analysing both teams and their abilities.

Get into it.

-AC

Originally posted by Wynndar
sorry...i see that went right over ur head...Richards can "see" the future via his technology...sometimes the Thing just relaxes in the Baxter Building watching a "TV" that shows the future...and as the Dark Rainder, Richards would slaughter every member of the JLA in the most cold and efficient method possible.

Technology? Did the Mr. Fantastic somehow pull this technology out of his ass? Please! Before Reed Richards even THINKS of using his technology he's already out.

Originally posted by demigawd
???

Not sure what you're trying to imply, but ok.

So it stands as this. The reasoning provided that the FF would win seems to consist of, "They're the FF - they're good at beating overwhelming odds. They'll figure something out".

The reasoning provided that the JLA would win seems to consist of, "Flash knocks them out before they can think" "MM knocks them out with one telepathic attack" "GL pounds them with the most powerful weapon in the universe".

Yeah. Seems about even.

Does seem uneven doesn't it?

A little like Galactus v FF. I presume you'll see where that's going.

what the hell...u missed the point again...he doesnt have to pull anything outn of his ass...he could see the flash coming a year before the flash attacks...u missed the point.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
"At the beginning at the battle. Or rather .000000001 seconds after the battle begins to be more accurate."

Maybe when it happens we can claim fact.

You can't claim facts where there are none, genius.

"You lack facts. You haven't given any arguments as to HOW the FF4 can defeat the JLA. "

If you mean we haven't done this:

"Flash attack, Reed moves etc" then no, we haven't. Because we're above making up stories that haven't happened to back ourselves up. We're analysing both teams and their abilities.

Get into it.

-AC


Please! You're the one "chickening out" now. There is no such thing as fact. Don't try to twist the issue. You always do this. You say that the outcome is indeterminable when you can't win an argument. It's really immature.

Come up with something else besides the "it never happened so we can't judge the outcome of this fight." quote.

Does Reed wear the Dark Raider outfit everyday?

*sigh* flash and MM knocking anyone out is purely ur opinion since they have never faced anyone in the FF. Thats like me saying the Thing would win because he would knock out every member of the JLA, despite their powers.....................in one punch...

They have a habit of doing that Wynndar. They forget that the fight hasn't happened.

-AC

Originally posted by Draco69
There is no such thing as fact.

So that's not a fact then.

hahahaha

Originally posted by Wynndar
what the hell...u missed the point again...he doesnt have to pull anything outn of his ass...he could see the flash coming a year before the flash attacks...u missed the point.

No, YOU are the one missing the point. You are saying that the FF4 has preptime. They DON'T. It's a straight-up fight. No tech. No time-vision machines. Just the teams.

Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
Does seem uneven doesn't it?

A little like Galactus v FF. I presume you'll see where that's going.

that the FF are going to get the Ultimate Nullifier?
that they're going to call in The Avengers?
that they're going to make Johnny into a herald and ask Quasar for help?

Other than that, no clue.

Originally posted by Wynndar
*sigh* flash and MM knocking anyone out is purely ur opinion since they have never faced anyone in the FF. Thats like me saying the Thing would win because he would knock out every member of the JLA, despite their powers.....................in one punch...

Translation: I've lost this argument. I have no facts nor evidence.

YOU are saying it as if the fight has happened.

Who's more in the wrong? He's going by history, you're going by.....nothing.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
YOU are saying it as if the fight has happened.

Who's more in the wrong? He's going by history, you're going by.....nothing.

-AC

I'm going by facts and history. The hell are you talking about. You don't have anything. Demigawd said it best:

So it stands as this. The reasoning provided that the FF would win seems to consist of, "They're the FF - they're good at beating overwhelming odds. They'll figure something out".

The reasoning provided that the JLA would win seems to consist of, "Flash knocks them out before they can think" "MM knocks them out with one telepathic attack" "GL pounds them with the most powerful weapon in the universe".

Originally posted by demigawd
that the FF are going to get the Ultimate Nullifier?
that they're going to call in The Avengers?
that they're going to make Johnny into a herald and ask Quasar for help?

Other than that, no clue.

No, they aren't going to do those specific things. Three of the methods they used to overcome an opponent like Galactus.

Is all about agency, me old mucker.

Originally posted by Wynndar
*sigh* flash and MM knocking anyone out is purely ur opinion since they have never faced anyone in the FF. Thats like me saying the Thing would win because he would knock out every member of the JLA, despite their powers.....................in one punch... The first post said they get transported and fight. So Flash and MM beat them easily.

Going by nothing? Let's analyze their powers and abilities:

MM - turns intangible, makes physical powers useless. Has telepathy, knocks people out instantly.

Flash - runs and fights faster than thought.

Hal - the most powerful GL. Can do anything he can imagine.

Firestorm - who knows.


FF - has all physical powers. Has no telepathic shields. Can't react faster than light.

Well, I'm done analyzing. If one of the FF supporters would like to chime in, I'm sure there's something I missed.

Oh yeah, that's right, "They'll figure something out".

JLA would probably win the direct battle.

Have been making the point that no-one is 'creaming' the Fantastic Four, unless it's from a paper-based objective analysis, which is not how fights go.

ok, I'll take that.

"I'm going by facts and history. The hell are you talking about. You don't have anything. "

History? Show me where the two fought.

-AC

I think he's referring to their respective histories. Like what VV Doom did when mentioning Galactus.

oh i see

situation 1:

JLA and FF r transported into an indestructable, and mystically sealed room that no one can phase, break, burn, or teleport through...they r all naked of any kinds of weapons or tech or preparation...its just four on four go against each other all at once.
-Flash would immediately be just as bewildered as the rest of the characters...when he does get his senses he attacks the FF for no reason at all...since this is his character, and he always attacks 4 peaceful looking character who might be a threat.
-Since Sue always maintains a forcefield around herself at all times just in case, since she has been a hero for many many years and always due for another sneak attack from Doctor Doom or Annihilus or the Skrulls, she is protected from any superspeed or telpeathic attacks. She then continues to protect the rest of her family in this same invisible shield.
-Martian Manhunter has also began to attack the FF with a telepathic and physical assualt for no apparent reason at this time, as well...However, neither he or Flash have any effect on the invisible forcefield which has demonstrated it cannot be broken by sheer force, or by phasing, or even mystics or teleporters.
-The invisible Woman continues to make her and the rest of the team invisible while still protected by her invisible forcefield...throwing reasoning into the wind, they decide to just go ahead and senselessly fight the brutes who r attacking them in the same fashion.
-First off the torch removes all ambient heat energy in the room...all memebers of JLA present that are not totally invulnerable...maybe Supes and MM are immediately crippled in the fight.
-Next The Thing creates a thunderclap to neutralize all characters who have mortal phyisiololgy or r vulnerablitiy to sonics.
-For those who r still able to put a fight, the Invisible Woman makes their retinas invisble causing them to go blind.
-Now, FF just go around beating the shit out of the totally vulnerable JLA...mortlas like the Flash, Batman, And GL have already been dramatically crippled and the Thing and Torch continue to either smash or Nova blast them to death...Superman is still able to go, but he's slowed down by having no heat and he's also blind...First the Thing beates the hell out of him, then the Torch Nova flames him...if he's still going at this point, IW just makes a forcefield in his brain and makes his skull explode...
-Now MM is the only JLA that hasnt been turned to a stain yet, but he is also slowed down like Superman was before the FF killed him...So he is hit with a barage of Nova Flame, Punches, and Invisible Assualts...he avoids some of these by phasing, maybe, even though he's already blind and freezing cold...Richards tells Sue to use the same homonic hyperspace attack that she used to shatter a celestials armor and an army of Hyperstorm's juggernauts...this attack serves to do MM harm and although it doesnt kill him, he is left out of his phase form long enough for Torch to vaporize him with Nova flame.
-the end
*if the JLA and FF were transported to a battlefield, why would the flash attack the FF.000001 seconds after he was transported there? he has never attacked someone in that fashion before...additionally, he would be memntarily just as confused as everyone else.

Sounds reasonable. Except - Sue cannot defend against telepathic attacks.

situation 2:

since good comics dont have two good teams of heroes fight in an inescapable room ...not since the eighties...the FF and JLA fight under regular terms...both temas have prep, their tech, etc.
-The Flash speed attacks the Baxter Building...er...because apparently the JLA r on the attack...
-Richards knows he is going to try this and creates a hidden field around the Baxter building that serves to nullify the Flashes powers.
-The Flash is reduced to a regular human.
-At this time the Thing leapes from the top of the Baxter Building and lands on the Flash turning him into a red puddle.
-Enraged, Superman attacks the Thing...Superman being physically Superior has a certain adavantage over the Thing, but seeing that the THing has fought the Gladiator, Champion, Hulk DEstroyer, Thanos, etc, he is not immediately beaten.
-Richards previously analyzes Superman's origin/physiology and tells the Torch to absorb all the ultraviolet energy from Superman (torch has ultraviolet light powers for those of u who dont know)
Superman's strength is dramatically reduces and Thing, being the better fighter, eventually KO's him...Then IW makes his skull explode for no apparent reason.
-Richards find some kind of tight beam sonics/psionic blah blah blah device that hurts martian manhunter while he is phased...he comes out of phase and Invisible woman forces him into a tiny invisible bubble...Torch Nova blasts the bubble, while IW modifies the field to allow heat in and nothing out...MM dies
-Im not sure who's left...Maybe Batman...he scoopes up the remains of his friends and runs home for prep time.
-Batman returns with the Entire JLA a few hours later with a kick ass plan to remove the powers from the FF and beat them...
-Richards got on an interdimensional forum with thousands of other Richards in the multiverse.
-The Richards decide to send 100 FF teams to that reality to fight the JLA...some of the FF r from the future and have dramatically increaded powers having absorbed cosmic rays for a longer period of time.
-The 100 FF's continue to annihilate the JLA

Originally posted by demigawd
Sounds reasonable. Except - Sue cannot defend against telepathic attacks.

Yes...she can...I wont say that she has never been attacked telepathically...because i know Galactus has done it...his level of power is much higher than MM or Jean Grey or prof X though...but any writer who has shown her succeptable to attack from a conventional telepath, through her force field was being inconsistent...although i cant think of any times when this has happened

lol. You know, I'm siding with the JLA for a pretty easy victory against the FF, but these scenarios are REALLY funny, and actually quite good.

FF still lose, though. But I can see comics being written with very similar scenarios!

Good stuff!

When has she used her shield to defend against a telepathic attack?

by god! AC is a F4 fanboy! anyone who thinks that the F4 could beat these particular JLA members is completely, absolutely, gonzo.

i would LOVE to see how anybody could put up a scenario where the F4 could win.

firestorm is far superior to human torch, MM could take out invisible woman, and flash could take out the F4 solo before they could even blink. throw in a GL, and well...

and about the galactus thing? it took all the heroes on earth to beat a STARVING galactus. short of the ultimate nullifier or a nova blast, F4 can not even come close to harming a starving galactus, much less defeat him.

Psi-Lord...Dark Phoenix...Moondragon

This thread is only two hours old and has 7 pages already. Its hard to make a thread worth posting on anymore. Oh and back on topic JLA wins.

Originally posted by Wynndar
Psi-Lord...Dark Phoenix...Moondragon

When did she block a telepathic attack by Dark Phoenix? And Moondragon? What storyline was this? What happened?

I dont remember the exact situation with Dark Phoenix...i think it was the only dark phoenix appearance in FF...Moondragon encounter was pretty old, back in the eighties...IW blocked her attack, Im pretty sure it was telepathic cuz i dont think MD has any other offense, a pretty uneventful issue...

Moondragon is also telekinetic. Are you sure it wasn't a telekinetic attack? I'd need more current/detailed information to accept this as valid.

The Dark Phoenix situation couldn't have happened - DP only encountered the X-men. I think what you're referring to is when the FF found Jean in a caccoon and Jean went crazy, tearing up the FF and the Avengers until Sue stopped her with her field. But it was revealed at the end of the issue that Jean had lost her telepathic powers.

What was the situation with Psi-Lord? Hopefully you have more specific information than with the other two...

yea i was referring to that issue where they found Jean...sorry if it was inaccurate...IW fought psi-lord in FF#383 i think...

I'd rather not hunt the issue down, because I'm not sure I have it handy and my comic collection is already in shambles from previous debates on here, lol. If you could summarize the issue, that would be great. lol

Originally posted by Wynndar
-Flash would immediately be just as bewildered as the rest of the characters...when he does get his senses he attacks the FF for no reason at all...since this is his character, and he always attacks 4 peaceful looking character who might be a threat.
OMFG, the topic creator says they fight right after they transported. Do you think he'll just stand there?
She doesn't have her force field up all the time and thus she will get knocked out by someone who runs at the speed of light. So will Johnny. Reed and Thing will take the pain. So MM will just have to wipe their minds.

NO offence to whoever is defending FF4 Flash is too fast.

His so fast that he will Kock out , all of them by himself and go home.

no one can react to his moves.

same goes with MM , he alone can take them all also

Sue keeps it up at all times just read the FF...why would Flash attack FF .000001 sec into the fight? he would be just as confused as everyone else....unless he knows he's supposed to fight the FF and he's prepared to do so...that would count as prep time...and with prep time Reed would have killed the entire JLA before the fight happend...Flash wouldnt knock out anyone...after he bounces off the shield Torch freezes his ass and Thing shatters him with a clap of his hands...

Read the first post. What does it say after the transport part? That's right, it says fight. If Sue does always have her force field on, then it won't matter because she won't have enough time to put it around everyone else. Then while Sue is still in her little bubble, Flash will make a cyclone around it and she will get dizzy and vomit thus lowering her defenses. MM then mind wipes her.

It doesn't matter how soon into the fight the fight starts - Flash will ALWAYS be the first to react. That means he'll STILL take down the entire team before they can put together a plan.

Hooray for peepee, if that IS your real name, I'm not an F4 fanboy just because I believe they are capable of coming up with a way to win.

Kapow.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
We forgetting that MM hates fire?

He isn't called the Human Torch coz he's a whizz with a Maglite.

-AC


Fire Martian, nuff said.

Originally posted by kgkg
NO offence to whoever is defending FF4 Flash is too fast.

His so fast that he will Kock out , all of them by himself and go home.

no one can react to his moves.

same goes with MM , he alone can take them all also


I agree only heroes with invuln powers similiar to supes would survive the first 1/16 of a second, but thats why there's the rest of the team.

Nobody even bothers to mention Firestorms power. And people have Said Supes when he's not even in the battle.

Originally posted by The Flash
Read the first post. What does it say after the transport part? That's right, it says fight. If Sue does always have her force field on, then it won't matter because she won't have enough time to put it around everyone else. Then while Sue is still in her little bubble, Flash will make a cyclone around it and she will get dizzy and vomit thus lowering her defenses. MM then mind wipes her.

huh? was i supposed to take that seriously?

-Sue keeps a force field around her practically at all times since she is always due for a sneak attack by the Wizard, or Doom, or Skrulls

-If both teams were transported to this battlefield by surprise, Flash would not attack the FF .000001 after arriving...he would try to figure out the situtation...thats like me saying that as soon as they r transported the Torch goes Supernova and kills the entire JLA that same moment.

-Sue would not get dizzy from looking at the Flash...although that does sound like some corny DC comic type sh!t...Just cuz the flash uses that to beat guys like the penguin doesnt mean it would work on the FF...

The FF would still drop the JLA!

Originally posted by Wynndar
-If both teams were transported to this battlefield by surprise, Flash would not attack the FF .000001 after arriving...he would try to figure out the situtation...thats like me saying that as soon as they r transported the Torch goes Supernova and kills the entire JLA that same moment. Read every thread in this forum. What do members say about fights? They use a character's full potential.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. After reading that I don't even need to respond to your posts anymore. You made it obvious right there that you don't read the whole post completely.

Firestorm could do enough damage himself also. He can turn anything into anything as long as he knows what it is made up off. So he could just turn the ground around them into goop or something where they couldn't move.

Originally posted by Wynndar
ent.

-Sue would not get dizzy from looking at the Flash...although that does sound like some corny DC comic type sh!t...Just cuz the flash uses that to beat guys like the penguin doesnt mean it would work on the FF...

The FF would still drop the JLA!

Yes, she couldn't...because she won't even see him...he moves so fast.

JLA will win.

u guys have really got me there...she wont be able to see a harmless weakling running around outside her field